490 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
A bona fide effort that only people who happen to play female characters in F/F relationships can see. If people don't play such characters (male or female in hetero relationships), then all they see are the negative examples. That leaves out a huge part of the audience.

But - as this thread shows - do you think those people that don't play an F/F relationship at all will spend very much time or energy thinking about the broader message associated with L/M or B/H? 

In those questlines, the fact that it's an F/F rather than an M/F relationship is not an especially fundamental aspect of the plotting.

They could add other more positive examples to counter-balance the negative ones, for starters. It's not that hard.

They did - but apparently because it's optional (pursuing the F/F romance), it doesn't count. Yet Leliana does count, even though it's optional to pick her up as a character or pursue her character questline enough get her background with Marjolane. 

With good reason. Again, a relationship with the PC isn't very reliable since all PCs that are not women in F/F relationships don't get to see the potential positive lesbian relationship from the franchise. And, arguably, those are the ones that ought to see it.

Which ones? The ones that won't notice that there is cultural bagagge associated with the lesbian relationship, because they don't give it very much attention? The ones that are biased, who will object to an F/F relationship because it's an F/F relationship?

Again, I'm not disagreeing that Bioware needs more positive F/F relationships, just like they need more positive M/M relationships. I just don't think Bioware is about to set a progressive and powerful message with Wade/Herren, as opposed to F!Shep/Traynor or M!Shep/Steve. 

To me, the progressive message (to the fanbase/players) is about promminence. I think Steve Cortez's featuring in ME3 - and especially his talks about his happy relationship with his deceased husband and the quite visible degree of love he has for him - is the kind of step that Bioware needs to take. But, again, by this thread's standards Cortez doesn't count because his husband was dead from the start of the game, and a positive/happy M/M relationship is available only if you pursue one with M!Shep.

Yes, we've seen a grand total of two plot-significant lesbian relationships in an entire game franchise so far (since, as the OP said, none turned up in DA2) and they're both treated the exact same way, and a way that every single gay and hetero relationship is not at that.  

Well, no. We've seen a grand total of two non-player plot that involve lesbian relationships. And in DA2 we had Bioware expand the F/F romance to include all romanceable F characters - which was a complaint we've had in DA:O. We've had zero plot significant M/M romances in DA:O, and the only M/M characters we've seen at all are Wade/Herren. 

There were numerous threads on how it was absurd, for example, that Morrigain wasn't interested in an F/F romance. 

You aren't seeing the forest because you're too busy scrutinizing the trees. Their problems had nothing to do with their sexual orientation, true, but every relationship of a sexual orientation are shown to have the exact same kind of serious problem that others don't have.

You keep saying "every". I would agree with you if we had 2/3 relationships in each game and all of them were about - effectively - vampire lesbian succubi. But that's not what we have at all. 

Again, this leaves out those who don't play a female character in a F/F relationship.

But we don't leave out those players who don't get that Wade/Herren aren't in an M/M relationship because Bioware wasn't explicit enough, those players that don't pick up Leliana or her questline? They all count? 

? I'm not saying anyone should have switched the gender of pre-existing couples. I'm sorry, but you seem to be touting a serious Either Or Fallacy here. That in order to gain something, we must take something else away. That in order to have a positive background F/F relationship for DA:O, the devs must have taken away the gender of a positive background M/M or F/M relationship; rather than just creating an extra positive F/F to go with the few good M/M and F/M ones.

I've gone so far as to clarify this in another post. I am not talking about taking away anything - I am saying that if you somehow had a positive F/F example that had the same plot role as Wade/Herren, you would have done absolutely nothing to really change your portrayal, because you stil have two plot-relevant antagonists that happen to be lesbians. And this is what the thread is concerned. If you're worried about what other players think - then lots of players don't even get that Wade/Herren are in an S/S relationship (like ASOIAF readers didn't get that Renly/Loras were in an M/M relationship). 

What I am saying is that if you are right and Bioware has had two plot-promminent F/F relationships that fail to show the richness and depth that an F/F relationships could have, then having a throw-away couple in a store in a particular city that the player doesn't even have to enounter, and even if the player does encounter might not realize is in an S/S relationship, doesn't make up for the kind of portrayal you are alluding to as problematic. 

Again, I think it's an easy fix that doesn't have to take away from other parts of the game.

And I disagree with you on it being an 'easy' fix, if you're right in the first place that there is a problem. 

[Volus Warlord]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[andy6915]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[Volus Warlord]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[andy6915]

Slimgrin murders everyone's wife.

[Sylvianus]

David Gaider wrote...
Considering the original point had to be stretched pretty thinly in order to connect the dots as she wished, the ultimate point that ends up being made is a rather thin one. I'm not really convinced there's a pattern of targeting lesbian relationships as unhappy over the course of Dragon Age-- one would probably get better mileage saying "I'd like to see more happy relationships at all", which I would still glance sideways at because I think happy is boring but I at least could understand where someone was coming from on that front.

Variety is good even in this area. While you are entitled to your opinion, having only tragic and failed relationships is I think boring too, and lesser the impact of numerous tragic relationships which would be shown to the players, seen as uni-dimensional. Let's take an example : the mages in DAII. I'm not saying this is my POV but a lot of people shook their head, found unbelievable or boring the fact that among them there were too many psychopats, unhealthy folks, only a few ones stable. Kirkwall was full of mad people and it seemed a bit too much to many.

Also, we don't need to understand the meaning of happy relationships, as if it were something absolutely perfect, with rainbows without any minor or big issue. I would say something which is at least stable, healthy, with maybe passion felt by the player. You could make it interesting. It doesn't mean we couldn't see this happy couple falling into some tragic traps because of context. After all in real life happy couples live painful events too, whatsoever.

But I agree, you don't have to build happy relationships because you have to. This isn't a good way of thinking. Either way, I'm happy with what we already have in dragon age, tragic, epic, and the fact that it isn't the world of Care Bears, otherwise, there, it would be pretty boring.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[Medhia Nox]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:03 .

[New Display Name]

I can't say that I'm not disappointed at how dismissive the developers have been towards OP's point.
When you take the sum of both Dragon and Mass Effect, there's definitely a trend. Not so much with Dragon Age alone, but it's concerning there too.

[slimgrin]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:03 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Thread cleaned up. Do not respond to troll attempts.

[Allan Schumacher]

I can't say that I'm not disappointed at how dismissive the developers have been towards OP's point.
When you take the sum of both Dragon and Mass Effect, there's definitely a trend. Not so much with Dragon Age alone, but it's concerning there too.

Dismissive? It has to do more with presentation of said point.

I actually told the OP to just state she'd like to see more varied representation of lesbian couples for no other reason than because she wants to see it and it is important to her.

Things get bumpier when stuff like this comes up:

And now, it seems, the Masked Empire book is going to do the same damn thing with Celene and Briala. What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?

Instead of it simply being "This is something new we're trying, and even in the words of Gaider we're occasionally going to screw it up sometimes" it becomes an issue with our corporate culture, trope addiction, and is essentially an adversarial approach. It couldn't be issues with the subject matter being new, the idea that we don't isolate NPC romances from PC romances when we examine some of this stuff, or just a plain ol' simple oversight.

It ends up undermining the actual point, which is a request to see more positive lesbian romances among NPC characters, by shifting the focus to what sort of motivations and systemic/institutional issues we must have that have prevented us from doing this. It ends up coming across as an attempt to shame us into changing our behaviour ("look how bad you've been. Stop it now."), which paradoxically often results in an innate resistance to "being told what to do" that human beings are so good at displaying. Myself included.

I made a link to a post earlier in this thread about the idea that human beings don't like to admit defeat, so the tone and adversarial nature of this thread now must overcome that additional hurdle before it can be included in the game as well. Fortunately David seems like a pretty reasonable fellow but in the end BioWare is made up of human beings that are going to behave in irrational ways that human beings do.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - since this is grown up land and such a very serious topic - I'll reply "seriously" so as not to be "cleaned up".

My commentary was not trolling - disagreeing by use of sarcasm is not always trolling or baiting or whatever other pedantic tripe serves on the internet.

That someone would be such an alarmist as to point out "disturbing trends" - and then say, what they really want is less drama. I find to actually be a fairly suitable example of irony and more than a little disingenuous.

If other groups were getting sweeping epic love stories so intricately woven as to make angel's weep - maybe I'd be inclined to say: "Hey, what about this other minority groups and their interests?"

But those just don't exist - for anyone - in any video game. The genre is simply not there yet. And won't be for a long time I wager - largely because of the audience.

So what if Marjolaine hurt Leliana - they're ROGUES - they're not morally upstanding human beings. Leliana was stupid to think that any successful rogue wouldn't throw her under the bus.  (and so is any doe-eyed audience member)

So what if Morinth kills her lover. She kills everyone - she's an Ardat Yakshi (or whatever). Would it suddenly have been okay with the OP if it had been a male? Oh - it's a guy - now it's no longer a "disturbing trend".

And Samara chose the life of an ascetic - something the Buddha and Jesus both did with their families (Jesus denies his mother - Buddha leaves his wife and kids) - say it's a "disturbing trend" amongst the morally devout - but not simply because "OH, lesbians - must be insidious plotting."

Cry foul all you want - but don't claim it's because you want "less" drama - when the very nature of this thread is nothing but drama.

Edit away Mr. Schumacher.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 mars 2013 - 09:30 .

[Xilizhra]

It ends up undermining the actual point, which is a request to see more positive lesbian romances among NPC characters, by shifting the focus to what sort of motivations and systemic/institutional issues we must have that have prevented us from doing this. It ends up coming across as an attempt to shame us into changing our behaviour ("look how bad you've been. Stop it now."), which paradoxically often results in an innate resistance to "being told what to do" that human beings are so good at displaying. Myself included.

This is, truth be told, a combination of my annoyance at the subject and legitimate curiosity. I find thought processes, especially ones that I disagree with, to be strangely fascinating, and I want to know exactly what's led to things like this. I apologize if any perceived adversarial quality would actually do more damage to this, but I have faith in you that you won't not include it just out of spite.

And yes, if you can include more positive lesbian relationship examples, that'll be enough.

[slimgrin]

Xilizhra wrote...

It ends up undermining the actual point, which is a request to see more positive lesbian romances among NPC characters, by shifting the focus to what sort of motivations and systemic/institutional issues we must have that have prevented us from doing this. It ends up coming across as an attempt to shame us into changing our behaviour ("look how bad you've been. Stop it now."), which paradoxically often results in an innate resistance to "being told what to do" that human beings are so good at displaying. Myself included.

This is, truth be told, a combination of my annoyance at the subject and legitimate curiosity. I find thought processes, especially ones that I disagree with, to be strangely fascinating, and I want to know exactly what's led to things like this. I apologize if any perceived adversarial quality would actually do more damage to this, but I have faith in you that you won't not include it just out of spite.

And yes, if you can include more positive lesbian relationship examples, that'll be enough.

You want them to adhere to a quota.

[Fuggyt]

Xilizhra wrote...



And yes, if you can include more positive lesbian relationship examples, that'll be enough.

How many examples will be enough?  One?  That's a token.  Two?  That's pandering.  Three?  That's an agenda. 

I see your point, Xil, I assume you see mine.

[lil yonce]

Two is pandering? And three is an agenda?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 mars 2013 - 11:43 .

[Lady Mortho]

I want there to be a trisexual option. I'll try three things at once

[SeismicGravy]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


This is across all Bioware games, but this forum is with the game where it could be prevented. So I'm posting here.

Observing
and listing the various lesbian relationships that occur in the background across Bioware's two latest series... I've noticed that every single one seems to be tragic, doomed or otherwise unpleasantly dramatic. And there are actually a fair number of these.

DAO: And here's where the trouble begins. Leliana/Marjolaine is bad enough, but Branka/Hespith is nearly gratuitous in its wallowing in drama (in fact, given the ultimate outcome, it may be the most dysfunctional relationship in the franchise). And as sort of a sick little bonus feature, there's Marjolaine's seduction of Dorothea in Leliana's Song.

DA2: No background lesbian relationships at all, which is... progress? Or not. It's hard to say.

And now, it seems, the Masked Empire book is going to do the same damn thing with Celene and Briala. What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?
[/quote]

[/quote]

While the OP may have a point regarding this, I feel only these 3 examples could be classed as actual evidence to prove it, since the Asari do not have a gender, and therefore technically there was no lesbian relationships involving them.

Just my 2 cents.

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 31 mars 2013 - 11:11 .

[Sylvianus]

For the love of god. Why is there so much confusion about the Asari gender ? How is it so difficult to understand ? Asari. are. mono-gendered. That doesn't mean they have no gender huh. And. they. are. all. female, possess maternal instincts.

As for " no lesbian relationship ", ha ha, lol.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mars 2013 - 11:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Fuggyt wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...



And yes, if you can include more positive lesbian relationship examples, that'll be enough.

How many examples will be enough?  One?  That's a token.  Two?  That's pandering.  Three?  That's an agenda. 

I see your point, Xil, I assume you see mine.

I think you're confusing my opinions with those of my opponents; I would never use the "pandering" or "agenda" angles. If you are talking about my opponents there... well, I heartily disagree with them and hope that it's my suggestion that winds up being the winning one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

slimgrin wrote...
You want them to adhere to a quota.

I don't think that's the op's intent.

A quota by definition is establishing a concret number that needs to be filled. Say we need 3 African Americans, 3 Asians, 3 Middle Easterns, 4 of which are straight, and 4 are gay, and the last one is pansexual.

That would be setting a quota, and I don't think anyone, writer or consummer, actually want that. 

It is not the same thing however, to ask for representation of groups outside the white straight male sphere that have dominated media in general and still does. Nor is it the same to aks for a number of lesbian happy relationships, when the op also specified that this desire applies to all sexual orientations as well (which incidently, I strongly disagree with the notion that happy = boring. In the hands of good writers, happy can be very exciting and interesting). 

The key, and I think the op would agree, is not to make them being lesbians and happy the sole aspects of their characters. 

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
You want them to adhere to a quota.

I don't think that's the op's intent.

A quota by definition is establishing a concret number that needs to be filled. Say we need 3 African Americans, 3 Asians, 3 Middle Easterns, 4 of which are straight, and 4 are gay, and the last one is pansexual.

That would be setting a quota, and I don't think anyone, writer or consummer, actually want that. 

It is not the same thing however, to ask for representation of groups outside the white straight male sphere that have dominated media in general and still does. Nor is it the same to aks for a number of lesbian happy relationships, when the op also specified that this desire applies to all sexual orientations as well (which incidently, I strongly disagree with the notion that happy = boring. In the hands of good writers, happy can be very exciting and interesting). 

The key, and I think the op would agree, is not to make them being lesbians and happy the sole aspects of their characters. 

This would be about it, yes. And I'll agree with your last line as well. I should also point out that, contrary to some peoples' word, there have been background relationships in Mass Effect, at least, that weren't at all tragic; generally they were there for ambiance or comic effect (most of these conversations take place in shops, for some reason).