490 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

Considering the original point had to be stretched pretty thinly in order to connect the dots as she wished, the ultimate point that ends up being made is a rather thin one. I'm not really convinced there's a pattern of targeting lesbian relationships as unhappy over the course of Dragon Age-- one would probably get better mileage saying "I'd like to see more happy relationships at all", which I would still glance sideways at because I think happy is boring but I at least could understand where someone was coming from on that front.

Happy is boring?  You need to get out more.  Happy is not the same as "conflict-free".  Nor is being miserable the same as "conflicted". Conflict is interesting.  Just being miserable is no more interesting than just being happy.

Is it enormously difficult to write a conflict that involves people being happy?  Hell yes.  Hence you should do it, just to stretch your creativity muscles.  Not necessarily in the actual game, just for practice.

Of course, this requires that someone understand that "happily" doesn't necessarily connect to "ever after", either.  Some people believe that something ending is inherently bad and destroys any value you might have had from the relationship, but everything ends.

Anyway, as far as lesbian tropes etc. go--if writers actively avoid bad lesbian relationships, all they're doing is creating a NEW trope where nothing bad can ever happen to lesbians because it would be That Trope.  Trying to include someone who previously felt outcast from the commonality of humanity is not an easy task, not least because they've oven adopted their exclusion as part of their identity and you cannot break that sort of thing up from outside--they will insist upon it even where no intent exists.

My method is to always assume I AM included until someone makes an active and definite effort to EXCLUDE me.  Then I scorn them so hard they catch fire.

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Trying to include someone who previously felt outcast from the commonality of humanity is not an easy task, not least because they've oven adopted their exclusion as part of their identity and you cannot break that sort of thing up from outside--they will insist upon it even where no intent exists.

If someone feels excluded from the dominant cultural narrative, that doesn't mean that they've 'adopted' this as part of their identity. It usually means they've noticed a lack.

Honestly, if someone pointed out the lack of characters of color in Dragon Age, would you suggest that once they free themselves from their self-inflicted mental cage, they'll find Thedas isn't incredibly white?

I don't really think it matters whether the people creating DA *intended* to make it so white. I think what matters that's what they ended up doing.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 avril 2013 - 12:40 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I don't really think it matters whether the people creating DA *intended* to make it so white. I think what matters that's what they ended up doing.

And how they respond to it. 

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Trying to include someone who previously felt outcast from the commonality of humanity is not an easy task, not least because they've oven adopted their exclusion as part of their identity and you cannot break that sort of thing up from outside--they will insist upon it even where no intent exists.

If someone feels excluded from the dominant cultural narrative, that doesn't mean that they've 'adopted' this as part of their identity. It means they've noticed a lack.

Honestly, if someone pointed out the lack of characters of color in Dragon Age, would you suggest that once they free themselves from their self-inflicted mental cage, they'll find Thedas isn't incredibly white?

Often, not always.  If someone points out that there's a ****-ton of white people in DA, I'd suggest that they say, hey, it'd be nice to have some diversity in here!  THEN, if the devs say "HELL NO ICK", they have cause to be offended and initiate the Scorn Offensive.  If the response is more "well, it's roughly based on Imaginary Generic Fantasy Europe" and "yeah, we tried but not hard enough apparently, also our actual engine is apparently a racist and makes anyone with dark skin look fugly", which is what the actual response was, they can relax the defcon level slightly.

By all means, express what you feel.  Just don't assume that your feelings are the facts or supplant them.  I get pissed at people all the time just because they're in proximity to something that's annoying to me.  I just try to remember that they're not necessarily RESPONSIBLE for that annoying thing.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
They might not  think about it consciously, but they'll still likely be affected subconsciously.  

But for them to be affected by it at all (putting on my cognitive psychologist hat for a second) they have to flag lesbian or bisexual as being a relevant part of the relationship. And while I agree with Xil that we absolutely need more positive F/F relationships in DA, I don't think that Branka/Hespith or Marjolane/Leliana foreground their sexual orientation at all.

We're talking about relatively positive couples that any player from any background can see, not just one. You don't have to play a hetero or homosexual male character to see some relatively positive examples in this franchise,so all the OP and I are asking is to offer lesbian relationships the same courtesy. I don't think it's asking too much.

Of course not. Again - I completely agree. I just think Bioware took a more significant stand by having well-developed S?S relationships for the PC in game, rather than having background S/S relationships (whether portrayed positively or otherwise). 

You mention you haven't played ME3. I would at least look up Samatha Traynor/F!Shepard on youtube, because it's an absolutely well-done romance and - IMO - speaks volumes to the extent to which Bioware has taken a stand on this issue compared to, pretty much, the entire industry.  

Any PC of any orientation can get her tragic and unhealthy F/F past with Marjolaine,

Only if they choose to pick up her character. It's contingent on (a) picking up Leliana and ( getting that far in her questline. So what I'm asking is - why does it mater that what the contingency is? That's what I'm curious about here. 

All players regardless of background or orientation can get Branka, Is it really asking too much to have some examples that aren't horrible.

Again - of course not. But let's say that we had a happy lesbian couple in Redcliffe that you only see if you walk into the house that had the oil in Redcliffe only if you save the town? Does that mean that Bioware presented a lesbian couply properly? Even though you can only see the couple if (i) you choose to save Redcliffe; and (ii) you enter that particular house? What if there's just ambient dialogue, without a cutscene? 

What I'm trying to get at here is that if you're right and a PC romance doesn't count, and a situation like Branka/Hespith is problematic, then we have to ask just what it means to counterbalance it. 

You'll never know until you put the example in front of them and give people the chance to be affected, right? By not having any PC-neutral positive lesbian examples at all, you're pretty much guaranteeing that people won't think about it.

Of course. What I was trying to get at was that the bigots that (hopefully) the series has left behind will likely just rail against the very idea of a non-heteronormative relationship. So those that are really there to reach out to are people who - for better or for worse - are more progressive on the scale. And so I think the question there is what is the best way to have a positive message. 

I agree that they should start adding more positive and plot signficant M/M relationships in Thedas. Share the love.

No one wants to listent to my idea to make an Alistair/Zevran romance cannon... 

Modifié par In Exile, 01 avril 2013 - 12:58 .

[Xilizhra]

You mention you haven't played ME3. I would at least look up Samatha Traynor/F!Shepard on youtube, because it's an absolutely well-done romance and - IMO - speaks volumes to the extent to which Bioware has taken a stand on this issue compared to, pretty much, the entire industry.

I confess that this is my spark of hope: Samantha's writer is also writing The Masked Empire. So there's at least some chance that the relationship won't go to hell here.

Again - of course not. But let's say that we had a happy lesbian couple in Redcliffe that you only see if you walk into the house that had the oil in Redcliffe only if you save the town? Does that mean that Bioware presented a lesbian couply properly? Even though you can only see the couple if (i) you choose to save Redcliffe; and (ii) you enter that particular house? What if there's just ambient dialogue, without a cutscene?

That would involve hiding it deliberately; the only practical thing to do here would be having said ambient dialogue show up in Denerim's market square, or something. In which case... yes, it would help enough when combined with the f/f player relationships we have. Perhaps not necessarily having just one, but it would be an improvement.

[PsychoBlonde]

discosuperfly wrote...

Psychoblonde...

Trying to include someone who previously felt outcast from the commonality of humanity is not an easy task, not least because they've oven adopted their exclusion as part of their identity and you cannot break that sort of thing up from outside--they will insist upon it even where no intent exists.

Whaaa? 

So in other words, people just need to learn to accept the way things are, ooookay.

No, they need to accept that it's NOT POSSIBLE for OTHER PEOPLE to FIX HOW THEY FEEL.  All other people can do is try to repair their behavior--they CANNOT do anything about your emotional reaction to that behavior.  Only you control how you feel--just not directly and immediately.  It takes a long time and a lot of thought and effort to change your emotional reactions to things.  If people are trying in good faith, cut them some slack.  Don't expect total instant perfection just because you complained.  You'll be happier, and people won't come to see you as a reactionary twit.

Bioware's never been perfect in their implementation of ANYTHING that I can recall, but I've never seen them reject honest people suggesting that there might be some Underlying Assumptions that could stand improvement.  The only time they tell people off is when people start making offensive assumptions of their own.

One bad assumption I see in this thread is that there's such a thing as a Bad Trope.  Any trope can be bad when mishandled.  Likewise, any trope can be good--they're too generic to be inherently good or bad on their own, yes, even ones like the girlfriend in the fridge one.  It is equally lame and insulting to consistenly beat up and kill the girlfriend to motivate the hero and to say "don't kill off the girlfriend in a horrific way, that Looks Bad".  And if you try for a perfect statistical 50/50% split, which seems to be what some people imagine as a "solution" to this sort of problem, you just become a buffoon.

It's not a binary choice between "give up" and "be a screaming banshee all the time about everything" (not that anyone is being one).  It's all about not griefing yourself unnecessarily because stupid people exist, because ultimately their power over you is a lot smaller in reality than it is in your head.

[Ravensword]

krul2k wrote...

tbh its your fault the relationships end the way they do, they were all perfectly happy until you played the game an destroyed there relationship by walking into there lives

hope you feel bad now

Oh, man. Now I feel bad.

[KiwiQuiche]

I think the DA verse is more "a disturbing trend in the use of relationships."

People in relationships tend to die, get butchered, enslaves, betrayed and just screwed around with for teh dramaz in DA. I can only think of two romances that seem genuinely happy with a lack of death- Aveline and Donnic, and Wade and Herren. Though with Aveline you need to force her to speak to Donnic, Wade and Herren are fine on their own...

[andy6915]

@KiwiQuiche

Makes you realize that maybe Morrigan was right about love being a weakness. In Dragon Age, love REALLY IS a dangerous feeling to hold about someone else because of how often it ends tragically. For our world, her view is overtly pessimistic. But in DA's world? She might have the right idea.

[Wolfva2]

No matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter what your intentions, there will ALWAYS be someone out there who not only will take offense, but will go out of their way to craft a conspiracy theory that claims to explain the evil intentions of the developers/writers/whoever involved. I mean...SHEESH!. Bioware was one of the first companies to even include gay/bi characters. They've been on the forefront, pushing against quit e a lot of vitriol in the process. Rather then honor them for their attempts, some people want to claim they're being homophobes now?

Btw, the Asari are sorta asexual; basically genderless. They jjust look like hot women to whichever species is loking at them. So using them as 'lesbians' would be incorrect. They're as much a lesbian as an earthworm mating with another earthworm. In any case, we're dealing with a galactic war, or with a medeival invasion of plague carrying demonic creatures. ANY relationship is probably going to end badly, and does. In DA, the human noble beginning? Your loving, heterosexual parents are killed. OH NOES! There must be an insidious plot by Bioware against hetero marriage! I see a pattern forming! Right?

[KiwiQuiche]

andy69156915 wrote...

@KiwiQuiche

Makes you realize that maybe Morrigan was right about love being a weakness. In Dragon Age, love REALLY IS a dangerous feeling to hold about someone else because of how often it ends tragically. For our world, her view is overtly pessimistic. But in DA's world? She might have the right idea.

Yeah, it certainly seems to kick down the life span

I seriously can't think of any other happy relationships. (Not counting the PC for obvious reasons)

Kinda cool how the only happy, non-PC helped romance is the one between Herren and Wade <3

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 01 avril 2013 - 09:06 .

[andy6915]

@Wolfva2

No, they don't literally change physical forms to each species. That's impossible and nonsense. If they did, then PLEASE explain why they can be handed human female armor and wear it perfectly? If they shape shifted to Turian to be attracted to them, they would literally look deformed in human armor. That doesn't happen.

Asari are blue skinned human woman with a tentacle head. In fact, take a woman and make her get body painted blue and put a weird Asari cap on her, and she would look just like an Asari. Want proof of that? Here-



Now because Asari are fictional, of course that's a human woman. But if we were living in the ME world, would you even guess that the woman in that pic WASN'T an Asari?

And if it's just a woman with blue skin, then it is a lesbian relationship to have one. Maybe not between Asari themselves, but between a human female and an Asari? Yes.

[KiwiQuiche]

Guys, stop dragging Mass Effect and asari into this, it's going right off topic.

[andy6915]

I was just correcting misinformation. Blame Wolf, he's the one who brought Asari up out of the blue.

[Redbelle]

andy69156915 wrote...

I was just correcting misinformation. Blame Wolf, he's the one who brought Asari up out of the blue.

Heheh......blue.

@OP

Well try staying loyal to Liara for 3 game's and put a positive spin on the whole thing.......... you know....... till Shep tragically dies at the end........ Damn.

Ok, stay loyal to Liara and play to the end of 3 with the MEHEM end! We have found a way!

As for relationships in general. I'd agree that there is some evidence to support that, 'in works of fiction' being gay you have one of the partner's dead........... but before we overanalyse that let's remember that these relationship's are taking place in a work of fiction that emphasises drama. Happily ever after is not dramatic. Take Serenity were Wash dies through a massive stake through the heart...... (which is kinda ironic given the director)........ The same director who put a believable gay relationship in Buffy, and then killed her........ which sparked off the drama of Willow going ape on a school night and try to destroy the world.

If you want a long lasting relationship in a drama that's see's it's way from season one to the last season then it needs to be a little more thought out than, boy meets boy, or girl meet's girl....... those tend to be flashbang relationships because, just like nearly every other relationship that has been consumated, someone usually end's up sacrificd or shot, or just goes through a messy breakup that leads to Nyreen blowing herself up with a bandolier of grenades.

Who I still would have liked to have known for longer by the way........ but at least she went out a drama queen........which is really where this whole thing stem's from. You know, the drama.

Modifié par Redbelle, 01 avril 2013 - 09:47 .

[LarryDavid]

MissOuJ wrote...
... why would you be offended?

I'm serious, I can't for the life of me to understand why you (or anybody reading this thead) would be offended by the criticism in this thead. People are pointing out a trend, and explaining why it's problematic. I haven't read a single post stating that BW has some company-wide homophobic agenda, which is geared to show only unhappy female SS relationships, or anything of that nature.

I have gay friends, and I have stayed stuff in the past that has made them uncomfortable. When they confronted me with the things I'd said, I didn't go " Well, now I'm offended that you are implying I am homophobic, even thought I hang out with you guys!" I said "I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was making you uncomfortable. I won't be doing that again."

Acknowledging your social biases and priviledges means that at some point, when we screw up (because we most certainly do) and a member of a minority points it out to us, we should listen to their grievances and try to do better next time. This is not about how we feel, this is about how the stuff we do makes them feel.

I can see this thead bringing out a lot of emotions, but I honestly can't see how anyone working for BW would be offended by this thead. Plus, we only criticize because we love you, and want you to do even better.

I have friends who happen to be gay and, just like with friends of mine who happen to be straight, we sometimes end up having heated discussions about political topics, sometimes about social topics, ... and sometimes also about same-sex issues. As in most discussions it can happen that you say things an other person doesn't like to hear and visa versa. Now, I don't care at all what the sexual preferences of my friends are, and as such I see no reason whatsoever why I should react differently on objections they have about statements I make about same-sex issues or abortion or ... . In matter of fact, I can't think about something that is more insulting than acting like them being gay is something 'special' for me that I should take in consideration.

On the other hand, the most insulting thing they can do is share an observation like "Hey, I noticed you have never said something positive about a gay politician!". Due to the nature of political debates it doesn't happen much that I praise a politician and given the very small percentage of gay politicians, that statement is probably true. But true or not, their 'casual' observation is insulting for everything it implies.

Given the fact that Mr. Gaider and Mr. Schumacher and Bioware in general don't care about (as in; have no issues with) the sexual orientation of players, the 'observation' made in the OP is insulting. Adding things like "you really screwed up this time", "you should do better", "learn to consider how you make them feel", ... is not making it better.

If you want (more) happy lesbian relationships between NPCs, you have two polite ways of asking
- explicit : it would be nice to also see happy lesbian relationships between NPCs
- implicit : it would be nice to see more happy relationships between NPCs. Because sexual preferences is no issue for Bioware, this will also result in more same-sex relationships.

[FoxShadowblade]

BioWare makes games based in pretty dark worlds, it makes sense that most relationships end in betrayal, death, or some dramatic break up. I doubt they approached the characters going: "Hey, these characters are lesbians, lets make them significantly more tragic than others." No. They didn't do that. Well..honestly the Branka/Hespith thing was in there for bashing on Ohgren, and I took it in good humor.

So just..stop. They aren't targeting anyone. They don't have a malicious agenda. They are just making games. This whole hyper-sensitive thing that some people do is seriously starting to get on my nerves.

[grumpymooselion]

I'm not sure we can glean anything from Lesbian Relationships ending in some sort of negative, or being some sort of negative when talking about a Developer known for games where relationships of all kinds end in some sort of negative, or are some sort of negative. It's be like noting Joss Whedon kills his female characters, that the audience likes, and forgetting that he is just known for killing any character that his audience likes . . . regardless of gender (because killing off one we hated/didn't care about wouldn't mean anything, blah blah blah).

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 01 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[Sylvianus]

I think no one wants to listen to your idea with Alistair / Zevran , romance canon, ( so forced ) because that's just bad. It's like you want absolutely them together just " cause we need some important M / M representation ", which is absolutely ridiculous to be honest, - if that's the point -, without any regard for their character development and the story we were told. No, we just have to care for social demands or political agenda that have nothing to do with the the story, because we have to, lol. Bleh.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 avril 2013 - 09:35 .