490 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In Exile wrote...

For a guy, I'd say Varric. Because he's just made of awesome. A good example in media (IMO) is Omar. Absolutely my favourite character on the Wire.

I could get behind a same-sex Varric romance.

No. 

Bianca wouldn't let you.

[jillabender]

I don't necessarily see the examples of ill-fated lesbian romances in Dragon Age as indicative of a disturbing trend within those games in and of themselves, because there haven't been many happy relationships in the Dragon Age games in general, and because I find Branka, Hespith, Marjolaine, and Leliana to be interesting and well-written characters who feel like believable people.

After thinking about it more, though, I'm reminded of how many portrayals of lesbians in popular culture involve sado-masochism (imagery involving women tying each other up with whips and chains etc.), or women who are amoral or unhinged.

While I don't think BioWare have been guilty of using lesbian characters for shock and titillation in the way I've described above (as I've said, I find them to be interesting and believeable characters), I can understand how the dynamics of the Branka/Hespith and Leliana/Marjolaine romances could bring up unfortunate associations for some people.

Finally, I think it's fair to say that there's a lack of representation of positive lesbian relationships in the media in general, so I agree with Allan that Xilizhra's request for examples of positive lesbian relationsips in the Dragon Age games is completely reasonable.

Modifié par jillabender, 03 avril 2013 - 12:01 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Jillabender:

But Marjolaine doesn't screw over Leliana because she's a "damaged lesbian". She is a rogue - she is a successful rogue. In a less swashbuckler type story - a successful rogue would be of low moral character and willing to throw anyone under the bus to succeed. A failure of a rogue would "follow their heart".

Nor does Branka hurt Hespith because she's a "damaged lesbian". Branka's genius has driven her mad. Her madness makes her hurt everyone around her - not just Hespith.  Why doesn't any cause-head on this thread so much as mention the rest of the expedition?  Because it doesn't fit the current conspiracy.

====

This part is not specifically at you Jillabender:

And yet - we ONLY care about our pet cause. We throw up alarmist commentary about how lesbians are under fire.

Totally ignoring every other trait about these characters that are the actual cause of their hurtful actions.

Zevran tries to assassinate you - Sten kills an entire family over a sword - Alistair throws a colossal fit if his bloodlust against Loghain isn't sated.

Where's the "disturbing trend of male violence" thread? Males are being represented SO poorly - they're truly under fire by Bioware's smear campaign to hate on males.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 avril 2013 - 02:00 .

[jillabender]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Jillabender:

But Marjolaine doesn't screw over Leliana because she's a "damaged lesbian". She is a rogue - she is a successful rogue. In a less swashbuckler type story - a successful rogue would be of low moral character and willing to throw anyone under the bus to succeed. A failure of a rogue would "follow their heart".

Nor does Branka hurt Hespith because she's a "damaged lesbian". Branka's genius has driven her mad. Her madness makes her hurt everyone around her - not just Hespith.  Why doesn't any cause-head on this thread so much as mention the rest of the expedition?  Because it doesn't fit the current conspiracy.

I don't necessarily find anything offensive about the portrayal of those relationships in themselves - what I meant was that while they're not portrayed offensively in themselves, there are elements of their stories that, for some people, might bring up uncomfortable associations.

I wouldn't say that BioWare are obligated to avoid anything that might remotely remind someone of an offensive stereotype (that would be pretty close to impossible, after all!).

But I still think it's fair for someone to voice their feelings when some aspect of a story makes them uncomfortable, even when it's not through any particular fault of the story-teller - not to demand that the story-teller never do that again, but simply to register their reaction, and maybe to say "I'd like to see something different in the future."

Modifié par jillabender, 03 avril 2013 - 02:26 .

[Xilizhra]

But Marjolaine doesn't screw over Leliana because she's a "damaged lesbian". She is a rogue - she is a successful rogue. In a less swashbuckler type story - a successful rogue would be of low moral character and willing to throw anyone under the bus to succeed. A failure of a rogue would "follow their heart".

She wasn't that successful; her methods got her killed in the end, while Leliana's enjoyed far more success in the long run.

This part is not specifically at you Jillabender:

And yet - we ONLY care about our pet cause. We throw up alarmist commentary about how lesbians are under fire.

Totally ignoring every other trait about these characters that are the actual cause of their hurtful actions.

Zevran tries to assassinate you - Sten kills an entire family over a sword - Alistair throws a colossal fit if his bloodlust against Loghain isn't sated.

Where's the "disturbing trend of male violence" thread? Males are being represented SO poorly - they're truly under fire by Bioware's smear campaign to hate on males.

There are plenty of counterexamples in men who aren't particularly violent. Whereas there aren't any for this issue. The pattern is more important than the cause.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

But Marjolaine doesn't screw over Leliana because she's a "damaged lesbian". She is a rogue - she is a successful rogue. In a less swashbuckler type story - a successful rogue would be of low moral character and willing to throw anyone under the bus to succeed. A failure of a rogue would "follow their heart".

She wasn't that successful; her methods got her killed in the end, while Leliana's enjoyed far more success in the long run.

Her methods can get her killed in the end. Killing Marjolaine is optional. (As is killing Leiliana, not that I ever did so.)

Besides which, Marjolaine enjoys much greater success until Leiliana finds the Warden, and probably a higher standard of living during the Blight than Leiliana has until after it. Maybe even better than Leiliana's post-Blight life. Even assuming Leiliana kills Marjolaine, probably the last thought that went through Marjolaine's head was "Well, at least I got to live like a goddess for the last few years. The last five minutes sucked, but you can't have everything."

That, I think was what Medhia meant by successful rogue.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 avril 2013 - 04:05 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

The Liara romance didn't get me to play as FemShep. Just throwing that out there.

[TuringPoint]

I'm slightly disturbed you take everything bad that happens to Asari as 'continuing a trend' of bad stuff happening to 'lesbians'.  Most of what you mention is not related to any of the romantic storylines.

Oh well.  Go ahead and rant.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 avril 2013 - 03:59 .

[Renmiri1]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

The Liara romance didn't get me to play as FemShep. Just throwing that out there.

UGH. I'd play as a pyjak or a Krogan if that would get Liara off my back 

Much rather have Isabela than that passive aggressive blue stalker!

PS: This thread is reminding me so much of Rick Santorum!

For those who don't know, Santorum is a conservative politician that just this week announced the reason America now sides with gay marriage is because a decade ago there was a positive example of gays on the TV Show "Will & Grace"

So Bioware, heads up, in a decade you will be blamed for TEH GAY spreading around 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 07:06 .

[Nightdragon8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

The Liara romance didn't get me to play as FemShep. Just throwing that out there.

UGH. I'd play as a pyjak or a Krogan if that would get Liara off my back 

Much rather have Isabela than that passive aggressive blue stalker!

PS: This thread is reminding me so much of Rick Santorum!

For those who don't know, Santorum is a conservative politician that just this week announced the reason America now sides with gay marriage is because a decade ago there was a positive example of gays on the TV Show "Will & Grace"

So Bioware, heads up, in a decade you will be blamed for TEH GAY spreading around 

honestly all politions can go rot in the ground for all i care. they are just 5-16 yo's with power... they are either calling eachother names or trying to get into every womans pants.

[HolyAvenger]

Asari does not equate to lesbian. People know that, right?

[andy6915]

HolyAvenger, read my post on page 17.

[HolyAvenger]

andy69156915 wrote...

HolyAvenger, read my post on page 17.

 

You anthroprocentric bag of d*cks.













...that's an ME quote from an asari to a Shepard who equates her to a human woman, btw. Not a direct slur. 

[Jonathan28]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Asari does not equate to lesbian. People know that, right?

From the Asari point of view? Yes.

From the human point of view? I don't see how any human or FemShep herself wouldn't see it as anything other than a lesbian relationship. 

Modifié par Jonathan28, 03 avril 2013 - 11:34 .

[HolyAvenger]

Jonathan28 wrote...


From the human point of view? I don't see how any human or FemShep herself wouldn't see it as anything other than a lesbian relationship. 

 

Depends on whether you view the asari simply as blue human women or not. Honestly I think there's a lot more to them than their visual design which precludes me from that thought. 

[Xilizhra]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Jonathan28 wrote...


From the human point of view? I don't see how any human or FemShep herself wouldn't see it as anything other than a lesbian relationship. 

 

Depends on whether you view the asari simply as blue human women or not. Honestly I think there's a lot more to them than their visual design which precludes me from that thought. 

They're an explicitly all-female race.

[HolyAvenger]

Xilizhra wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Jonathan28 wrote...


From the human point of view? I don't see how any human or FemShep herself wouldn't see it as anything other than a lesbian relationship. 

 

Depends on whether you view the asari simply as blue human women or not. Honestly I think there's a lot more to them than their visual design which precludes me from that thought. 

They're an explicitly all-female race.

 

Doesn't mean you can stick human sexuality labels on them. I think the aliens are too...alien for that. 

Just my $0.02, of courses. 

[andy6915]

You can stick human sexuality labels on them when a human is 1 half the relationship in an Asari-human bond.

[HolyAvenger]

andy69156915 wrote...

You can stick human sexuality labels on them when a human is 1 half the relationship in an Asari-human bond.

 

I disagree. I would no more call an asari-human female relationship a lesbian one than I would a hanar female-human female a lesbian one

[syllogi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

You can stick human sexuality labels on them when a human is 1 half the relationship in an Asari-human bond.

 

I disagree. I would no more call an asari-human female relationship a lesbian one than I would a hanar female-human female a lesbian one

That's denying the human partner their sexuality.  If a female, lesbian human is partnered with an alien who is shaped like a female human, whom they are attracted to at least partially because they are attracted to people who are shaped like female humans, you don't get to tell that female human lesbian that they aren't in a lesbian relationship.  

You really can't compare it to a hanar/human relationship.  Whether you personally see it that way or not, when I look at an asari, I find them attractive because they look like women.  Even if a hanar is female, I would not be attracted to that species, because I am not attracted to them.

[HolyAvenger]

syllogi wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

You can stick human sexuality labels on them when a human is 1 half the relationship in an Asari-human bond.

 

I disagree. I would no more call an asari-human female relationship a lesbian one than I would a hanar female-human female a lesbian one

That's denying the human partner their sexuality.  If a female, lesbian human is partnered with an alien who is shaped like a female human, whom they are attracted to at least partially because they are attracted to people who are shaped like female humans, you don't get to tell that female human lesbian that they aren't in a lesbian relationship.  

You really can't compare it to a hanar/human relationship.  Whether you personally see it that way or not, when I look at an asari, I find them attractive because they look like women.  Even if a hanar is female, I would not be attracted to that species, because I am not attracted to them.

  

You mention the basis of the attraction as being physical, or looking like a human woman. Since none of the background human-asari relationships explore that, I think its a pretty large assumption to make. How do we know that's what underpins the attraction? If you're talking about FemShep/Liara, sure, roleplay your character as you wish. Doesn't make Liara a lesbian (despite fanon).

I'm not denying anyone the chance to declare their own sexuality. I'm saying that human-alien relationships, no matter what the alien looks like, are beyond human sexual categories, personally. 

Which also begs the point. If one partner in a relationship identifies that relationship as lesbian, but the other does not (having no concept of the word), what do we do with that?

[andy6915]

Considering Femshep stares at Liara's ****** when you first meet her in ME3 if you romanced her in a previous game, I don't think it's "roleplaying" to deduce that a Femshep romancing Liara is absolutely SEXUALLY attracted to Liara and is obviously into woman.

[HolyAvenger]

andy69156915 wrote...

Considering Femshep stares at Liara's ****** when you first meet her in ME3 if you romanced her in a previous game, I don't think it's "roleplaying" to deduce that a Femshep romancing Liara is absolutely SEXUALLY attracted to Liara and is obviously into woman.

 

And FemShep obviously doesn't count for the purposes of this thread, as do none of the other PC-romances. 

Although you can totally RP FemShep as Liarasexual rather than a lesbian:whistle:

[syllogi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

You mention the basis of the attraction as being physical, or looking like a human woman. Since none of the background human-asari relationships explore that, I think its a pretty large assumption to make. How do we know that's what underpins the attraction? If you're talking about FemShep/Liara, sure, roleplay your character as you wish. Doesn't make Liara a lesbian (despite fanon).

I'm not denying anyone the chance to declare their own sexuality. I'm saying that human-alien relationships, no matter what the alien looks like, are beyond human sexual categories, personally. 

Which also begs the point. If one partner in a relationship identifies that relationship as lesbian, but the other does not (having no concept of the word), what do we do with that?

Well, my position, whenever this subject regarding the asari comes up, is always that, if a human female character is attracted to asari, they are roleplaying a character in a lesbian relationship (edited for clarity).  I do agree that the asari in question would see the relationship differently, but unless there are more androgynous asari we haven't yet seen, they are perceived as having a female gender by humans, and they are biologically female sexed, by our scientific definitions.

Of course there can be humans who are willing to look past a person's exterior when they fall in love, but if we're talking physical attraction, then at least on the human side, it's perceived as a lesbian relationship.

Modifié par syllogi, 03 avril 2013 - 03:04 .

[HolyAvenger]

syllogi wrote...
Well, my position, whenever this subject regarding the asari comes up, is always that, if a human female character is attracted to asari, they are roleplaying a character in a lesbian relationship (edited for clarity).  I do agree that the asari in question would see the relationship differently, but unless there are more androgynous asari we haven't yet seen, they are perceived as having a female gender by humans, and they are biologically female sexed, by our scientific definitions.

 

Something just sticks in my craw about classifying all asari as blue human women. I wonder if a romance was possible with EDI, what we would consider that...I wouldn't call it lesbian either.

I wish BioWare had explored asari culture further.