490 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

As previously stated, I know that there are straight relationships that have ended badly. However, there are also those that have gone just fine. Examples being Ashley's parents, Kaidan's parents, Shepard's parents if a spacer, Rhys and Evangeline in Asunder, Aveline and Donnic, et al. I know that tragic romances are more common, but the fact that no lesbian ones at all go well is cause for concern. I realize it's unlikely that Bioware is plotting this, but if it's just out of thoughtlessness, it should be brought to their attention.

[New Display Name]

I agree, I'd like to see more lesbian or gay relationships that don't end with someone getting tragically killed or something.

[andy6915]

Lesbian relationships with your own character go well.

[Xilizhra]

andy69156915 wrote...

Lesbian relationships with your own character go well.

Actually, they don't either. The Warden disappears without Leliana, Shepard gets stomped, and Hawke... well, there's still a sliver of hope there, but I'm not counting on much, given all the disappearing heroes.

[New Display Name]

andy69156915 wrote...

Lesbian relationships with your own character go well.

Yes, but that's not exactly the point here. If your female player character does not romance another woman, all of the lesbian relationships shown in-game crash and burn. But you end up seeing working straight relationships even if your player character does not have a romance whatsoever.

[andy6915]

The Warden disappearing doesn't mean the relationship went to hell. For all we know, they hook up again at a later date after the Warden reappears and they go on living together.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

*snip*
I know that tragic romances are more common, but the fact that no lesbian ones at all go well is cause for concern. I realize it's unlikely that Bioware is plotting this, but if it's just out of thoughtlessness, it should be brought to their attention.

I think that this is very well put.

[Danny Boy 7]

syllogi wrote...

I would say that your examples aren't necessarily indicative of a trend if we also saw relatively healthy background lesbian relationships, but I'm trying, and I can't think of any at the moment. Not that my memory should be relied on at all, but now that it's being mentioned, yeah, I see the problem.

I'd say that purely from a relationship level (including the protagonists) that there are a good (if not large) amount of successful lesbian relationships, but if the OP is focusing only on background relationships then yeah it's a bit stilted to poor endings. I think that's a bit more involved with the everyone's lives suck in Thedas.

I don't think we have enough lesbian relationships period to go on though. 

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Lesbian relationships with your own character go well.

Actually, they don't either. The Warden disappears without Leliana, Shepard gets stomped, and Hawke... well, there's still a sliver of hope there, but I'm not counting on much, given all the disappearing heroes.

But then couldn't you say that no relationships in BioWare games go well then?

[Xilizhra]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

I would say that your examples aren't necessarily indicative of a trend if we also saw relatively healthy background lesbian relationships, but I'm trying, and I can't think of any at the moment. Not that my memory should be relied on at all, but now that it's being mentioned, yeah, I see the problem.

I'd say that purely from a relationship level (including the protagonists) that there are a good (if not large) amount of successful lesbian relationships, but if the OP is focusing only on background relationships then yeah it's a bit stilted to poor endings. I think that's a bit more involved with the everyone's lives suck in Thedas.

I don't think we have enough lesbian relationships period to go on though. 

I'm focusing on background ones because PC ones are wholly optional and not inherent to the universe.

I think that this is very well put.

Thank you.

But then couldn't you say that no relationships in BioWare games go well then?

No. As previously mentioned, we have relationships like Aveline/Donnic for straight ones, as well as the one (out of maybe two or three even presented) for gay men in Wade/Herren.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 mars 2013 - 06:24 .

[killswitch423]

I want more positive relationships shown in general so sure.

I still haven't really seen any in-game examples of straight couples ending well, either...

Edit: Ok so Aveline is one.

Modifié par N7_killswitch, 29 mars 2013 - 06:29 .

[Xilizhra]

N7_killswitch wrote...

I want more positive relationships shown in general so sure.

I still haven't really seen any in-game examples of straight couples ending well, either...

Then read both  my last post and the one at the top of this page.

[Iakus]

N7_killswitch wrote...
Edit: Ok so Aveline is one.

I should also point out that Hawke has to actively work to get that relationship going.  They do not get together if left to their own devices.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

As previously stated, I know that there are straight relationships that have ended badly. However, there are also those that have gone just fine. Examples being Ashley's parents, Kaidan's parents, Shepard's parents if a spacer, Rhys and Evangeline in Asunder, Aveline and Donnic, et al. I know that tragic romances are more common, but the fact that no lesbian ones at all go well is cause for concern. I realize it's unlikely that Bioware is plotting this, but if it's just out of thoughtlessness, it should be brought to their attention.

The protagonist's lesbian romances (on the whole) seem to go pretty well. F!Warden/Leliana + F!Hawke + Merril/Isabella (drama aside) seem to go along quite well. 

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

I would say that your examples aren't necessarily indicative of a trend if we also saw relatively healthy background lesbian relationships, but I'm trying, and I can't think of any at the moment. Not that my memory should be relied on at all, but now that it's being mentioned, yeah, I see the problem.

I'd say that purely from a relationship level (including the protagonists) that there are a good (if not large) amount of successful lesbian relationships, but if the OP is focusing only on background relationships then yeah it's a bit stilted to poor endings. I think that's a bit more involved with the everyone's lives suck in Thedas.

I don't think we have enough lesbian relationships period to go on though. 

I'm focusing on background ones because PC ones are wholly optional and not inherent to the universe.

I think that this is very well put.

Thank you.

But then couldn't you say that no relationships in BioWare games go well then?

No. As previously mentioned, we have relationships like Aveline/Donnic for straight ones, as well as the one (out of maybe two or three even presented) for gay men in Wade/Herren.

Yeah but they come with their own dramas, in fact if I think about it the only people who have a happy ending are Wade/Herren lol. Aveline and Donnic are optional as well and that's piggybacked off of Aveline loosing her family, Ashley's family is plagued with military prejudice and Kaidan's family I believe gave him up because of Alliance propaganda that scared his family into giving him away.

Not that I disagree with you, I think there ought to be more, relatively happy endings for gay/lesbian relationships, I just don't think we've seen enough to really make a judgement. I don't think you should be getting as much flak for saying this though.

It's a "bit" of a reach in all honesty.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...
Edit: Ok so Aveline is one.

I should also point out that Hawke has to actively work to get that relationship going.  They do not get together if left to their own devices.

There's also Rhys and Evangeline, and as mentioned prior, Kaidan's and Ashley's parents in ME. Also Shepard's if a spacer. And Joker/EDI. Also (lol), Jacob/Brynna.

Yeah but they come with their own dramas, in fact if I think about it
the only people who have a happy ending are Wade/Herren lol. Aveline and
Donnic are optional as well and that's piggybacked off of Aveline
loosing her family, Ashley's family is plagued with military prejudice
and Kaidan's family I believe gave him up because of Alliance propaganda
that scared his family into giving him away.

Own dramas, perhaps, but they don't end with one or both people dead/scarred forever. And the other issues you brought up aren't actually related to the relationships themselves.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 mars 2013 - 06:35 .

[killswitch423]

"Examples being Ashley's parents, Kaidan's parents, Shepard's parents if a spacer, Rhys and Evangeline in Asunder, Aveline and Donnic, et al."

Ash/Kai's parents are only peripheral, and only one version of Shep's parents didn't die horribly. Didn't read Asunder but I'm only claiming to speak in the context of the game...I'll give you Aveline but that just barely tips the argument in your favor.

I agree with your goal here anyway but I do think you're overstating the extremity of the issue a bit. Still, more happy loves for all, please.

[New Display Name]

There's that couple with a kid named Jacob, the human woman and male salarian near Purgatory, Conrad Verner & Jenna, Garrus & turian scout or turian woman (Citadel DLC) or Tali, Ashley & Vega, Fenris & Isabela...

Modifié par HJF4, 29 mars 2013 - 06:43 .

[Wulfram]

I think relationships that aren't the PC tend to exist so bad things can happen to them, or to be parents. And parents have a natural bias to be straight, though that's not necessarily fair in ME.

So I don't think there's anything behind this other than things like that and that straight relationships are just more common. But I agree that it's unfortunate that it turned out this way.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

I want more positive relationships shown in general so sure.

I still haven't really seen any in-game examples of straight couples ending well, either...

Then read both  my last post and the one at the top of this page.

3 of the relationships we never see, nor do we even see the characters themselves at all. Not really background material to base an argument for happy or functional relationships.

Avaline had to kill her husbad, and took years to finally work up enough courage to try and get with someone else. I wouldn't really call that happy.

Can't speak for asunder.

I think more happy relationships in the background would help much more, not just for one specific group. Also, most of the ME3 ones I can easily forgive because it was during a mass galactic extermination, and everyone, ******, hetero, and xeno, had a large, large, amount of tragic relationships.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 mars 2013 - 06:47 .

[Blackrising]

To be honest with you, I never noticed that all lesbian background relationships ended up being a horrible failure.
I'm pretty sure that it wasn't Bioware's intention, though.
I'm all for more happy relationships in general, whether they be gay or straight or something else alltogether.
In fact, I'd also love a PC/LI romance that doesn't involve loads of drama. (Oh, Varric...)

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...
Edit: Ok so Aveline is one.

I should also point out that Hawke has to actively work to get that relationship going.  They do not get together if left to their own devices.

There's also Rhys and Evangeline, and as mentioned prior, Kaidan's and Ashley's parents in ME. Also Shepard's if a spacer. And Joker/EDI. Also (lol), Jacob/Brynna.

Yeah but they come with their own dramas, in fact if I think about it
the only people who have a happy ending are Wade/Herren lol. Aveline and
Donnic are optional as well and that's piggybacked off of Aveline
loosing her family, Ashley's family is plagued with military prejudice
and Kaidan's family I believe gave him up because of Alliance propaganda
that scared his family into giving him away.

Own dramas, perhaps, but they don't end with one or both people dead/scarred forever. And the other issues you brought up aren't actually related to the relationships themselves.

But isn't that the same with the others? I mean Branka abandons her husband and then has her entire family killed/leaves Hespith to die, it's not exactly directed at Hespith. I'm not quite entirely sure what you're getting at though is it that you want more of the relationships to end on a happier note, outside of the protagonists actions? Or just for it to stop the lesbian romances to be used as a crux for betrayal?

I think that's just a lack of periphery lesbian relationships though.

[Xilizhra]

Avaline had to kill her husbad, and took years to finally work up enough courage to try and get with someone else. I wouldn't really call that happy.

Happier, at any rate, than the alternative.

I think relationships that aren't the PC tend to exist so bad things can happen to them, or to be parents. And parents have a natural bias to be straight, though that's not necessarily fair in ME.

So I don't think there's anything behind this other than things like that and that straight relationships are just more common. But I agree that it's unfortunate that it turned out this way.

So will you advocate for background relationships that go better? Within both franchises?

Also, see HJF4's previous post.

But isn't that the same with the others? I mean Branka abandons her
husband and then has her entire family killed/leaves Hespith to die,
it's not exactly directed at Hespith. I'm not quite entirely sure what
you're getting at though is it that you want more of the relationships
to end on a happier note, outside of the protagonists actions? Or just
for it to stop the lesbian romances to be used as a crux for betrayal?

Both, for preference. And while Branka's issues have nothing to do with the relationship per se, Hespith's reaction most definitely does.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 mars 2013 - 06:50 .

[Aolbain]

Yes. Bioware hate LGBT people. That's why they have fought for incusion of such characters in their games. This is just part of their agenda.