490 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

EDI doesn't even HAVE a sex.You can't be straight or gay with her.

[HolyAvenger]

andy69156915 wrote...

EDI doesn't even HAVE a sex.You can't be straight or gay with her.

 

I agree. So we're at the point where looking humanoid isn't enough. Being female isn't enough. Put those together, and for some people its enough, but for me its still forcing the asari into a particular box. 

[andy6915]

No. having a freaking vagina and a womb and breasts for feeding, and then having a human woman be wanting to tap that, makes that human lesbian or bisexual and the relationship lesbian on the human's side. If you can't knowledge that base fact, then this argument will go no where.

[HolyAvenger]

andy69156915 wrote...

No. having a freaking vagina and a womb and breasts for feeding, and then having a human woman be wanting to tap that, makes that human lesbian or bisexual and the relationship lesbian on the human's side. If you can't knowledge that base fact, then this argument will go no where.

 

Good to see you take such a fantastic and in-depth view of human sexuality. I bet any transwoman who wants to identify as lesbian is loving this classification. 

For a short answer, please learn the difference between sex and gender. Then think about how they might apply to sexuality. Then think about the possible influence of aliens who fit in the concept of neither. Then think about how you might be reducing women to their anatomical parts and why that might be insulting. Then please come back with a more nuanced argument. 

[andy6915]

Are you f*cking serious? I'm best friends with a guy who has a self admitted "girl side" and sometimes wishes he was born a woman, and we've talked AT LENGTH about gender issues in the past. Do NOT talk to me like I'm ignorant about that subject, I have more personal knowledge of that subject then I bet you ever will.

[syllogi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

EDI doesn't even HAVE a sex.You can't be straight or gay with her.

 

I agree. So we're at the point where looking humanoid isn't enough. Being female isn't enough. Put those together, and for some people its enough, but for me its still forcing the asari into a particular box. 

I personally believe, given the information from the games, that asari can be biologically classified as female sexed, even if they are monogendered.  Sex=reproductive organs (see: Banshee crotch textures) gender=social norms.  I don't consider female asari blue human women, just as I wouldn't consider turian females to be human women with a different skin.  But attraction, on a physical level, is at least partially based in biology, for most people.  If an alien race is physically compatible with humans, even when very different, then you'll have some attraction (see: Garrus romance and those who find Javik appealing).  So it makes sense that the race closest to humans, with a physical structure that superficially resembles that of human females, would appear more attractive to those humans, male or female, who find women attractive.

I just don't think one has to negate the asari's alien nature in order to see why humans find them attractive.  And, to bring this back to the topic at hand, I don't think any female NPC who gets into a relationship with an asari is erasing their nature by seeing the relationship as lesbian.

[HolyAvenger]

Well your post certainly didn't manage to convey any such knowledge. I also have no idea why you're getting so angry. My opinion on a fictional alien race is really so infuriating?

[HolyAvenger]

I've never denied that the asari are female-sexed, that's well-established in lore. The gender definition is the one I'm iffy about. If one defines a lesbian relationship as one between two women (sex and gender? Just sex? Just gender?), and the asari don't conform to gender roles per se (or there's a wide spectrum of roles they spread across) then I think the definition becomes somewhat murkier.

If we're classifying it purely on a physical or biological level, then fine. But I think that's definitely reductionist.

[andy6915]

No, I'm getting angry at your accusations that I'm ignorant or blind about transgendered people and the problems society throws at them. I wasn't angry before that post. After that post? Jimmies are officially rustled.

[Fiacre]

As someone who actually is transgender, I indeed can't say I'm too fond of that reduction to my anatomy. And while I certainly would not be opposed to being with a lesbian woman who is attracted to my female appearance on a physical level, I'd expect her to understand that that's not what I identify as. I wouldn't even necessarily be opposed to her identifying herself to be in a lesbian relationship on her part, as long as she understands that I don't feel the same way. But that up there is some... rather unfortunate wording.

[N7KnightSabre]

Filament wrote...

There are also the gay relationships that aren't very happy, Anders/Karl and Fenris/Denarius.

I think maybe "not happy" is just more interesting and short of including a lot of gays and lesbians for variety most of them have just individually been given unhappy lives for the drama without a deliberate effort to bring about this pattern of portrayal.

Please don't call Fenris and Denarius a relationship.  That's wrong on so many levels.  Fenris was his slave and Denarius raped him.  Not a relationship.

As for the original post, yes those are alot of tragic lesbian cupples but there are alot of tragic straight cupples too, as well as gay male cupples.  It creates interesting story points, tragedy and drama.  I highly doubt that it's intentional on Bioware's part and they do alot for the gay/lesbian community, especially compared to other game companies.

[Allan Schumacher]

The semantics argument is going in circles at this point...

[BouncyFrag]

Well, it is at 20 pages.

[andy6915]

@Fiacre

You just agreed with me. I said that for the HUMAN it is lesbian relationship, I never said a word about what it would be viewed as for the Asari. And you, just now, said that you wouldn't care how a girlfriend would see it from her perspective as long as she doesn't force that perspective on you. Well, where did I say that the human would force her Asari bondmate to share her perspective? Oh right, NO WHERE.

Besides, you oversimplify this scenario. If a woman calls herself a lesbian but is sexually attracted and sexually involved with a transgender woman who is physically a man... What sexual orientation is that really? She's not a lesbian by the technical sense of the word because lesbian is a subset of gay, and gay means sexually attracted to your own sex. Not your own GENDER, your own SEX. I don't have an answer for that because it's a complicated scenario in which conventional wisdom utterly fails. Sometimes a scenario is just too complicated to frustrate yourself trying to completely work out. I can accept that. Can you?

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 avril 2013 - 04:49 .

[astreqwerty]

Guh why does this thread still exist? Bioware is really impartial when it comes to relatioships either gay or straight.. They just happen to take place in rough times, is it so hard to grasp?

[Allan Schumacher]

This thread has about run its course I think.