490 réponses à ce sujet

[MissOuJ]

I have to say I haven't noticed this before, but now that you mention it, I can't name a canonical lesbian NPC relationship that didn't end in tragedy. You are absolutely, 100% correct.

[Olive Oomph]

This is an interesting observation, Xili. And it is a little disturbing. There should definitely be more positive relationships be in the game, especially gay ones.

[Atalanta]

I'm gay and I definitely enjoy the doomed romance plots the most.

That said, I think that it's a good idea for anyone who writes LGBT characters to be aware of the common tropes, to lessen the chance that all of the relationships end up fitting into the more depressing ones. Because yeah, that is a bit unfortunate.

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

Avaline had to kill her husbad, and took years to finally work up enough courage to try and get with someone else. I wouldn't really call that happy.

Happier, at any rate, than the alternative.

I think relationships that aren't the PC tend to exist so bad things can happen to them, or to be parents. And parents have a natural bias to be straight, though that's not necessarily fair in ME.

So I don't think there's anything behind this other than things like that and that straight relationships are just more common. But I agree that it's unfortunate that it turned out this way.

So will you advocate for background relationships that go better? Within both franchises?

Also, see HJF4's previous post.

But isn't that the same with the others? I mean Branka abandons her
husband and then has her entire family killed/leaves Hespith to die,
it's not exactly directed at Hespith. I'm not quite entirely sure what
you're getting at though is it that you want more of the relationships
to end on a happier note, outside of the protagonists actions? Or just
for it to stop the lesbian romances to be used as a crux for betrayal?

Both, for preference. And while Branka's issues have nothing to do with the relationship per se, Hespith's reaction most definitely does.

I'd advocate for more relationships in the background then, ones that end happily I might add, but to be honest it's not a "priority" to me because it hasn't really been an issue you know what I mean? It's something that would be nice to have, simply for "fairness", but beyond that I dunno. I think getting more lesbian relationships in is a higher priority than background relationships atm.

But I'd like to echo King Couslands words in saying that we need to wait and see what happens with Briala/Celene because (I know it's gonna end poorly because Celene gets captured and I think it's a bit obvious who turns her in/helps out, but...) it could end up happy.

[Xilizhra]

But I'd like to echo King Couslands words in saying that we need to wait and see what happens with Briala/Celene because (I know it's gonna end poorly because Celene gets captured and I think it's a bit obvious who turns her in/helps out, but...) it could end up happy.

The problem is that if it does end happily, it'll probably be even worse for the world as a whole, unless the faintly likely happens and Celene winds up siding with the elves somehow.
Either way... you're right, maybe it'll turn out all right, but if the book isn't finished being written yet, maybe I can bring this up and Bioware will hear.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 mars 2013 - 07:13 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

BioWare clearly aren't having all their lesbian relationships end horribly because they don't like lesbians. That doesn't mean it's not a worrying trend when considered in the broader context of a culture that has so many dead and/or evil lesbians in it already. The obvious solution is to have some lesbian versions of Wade/Herren or Aveline/Donnic in the next game.

(We could probably use some more m/m relationships that don't involve the protagonist, too. I think Wade/Herren and Karl/Anders are the only ones we hear about in DA, and one of those is only discussed if the protagonist is a dude and romances Anders. I'm not inclined to count whatever Danarius did to Fenris as part of a relationship, as such. I think there are some gay Grey Wardens in the books, though?)

[Gileadan]

I generally get the feeling that being in a relationship is the Thedas equivalent of wearing a red shirt... a die for drama ticket.

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

But I'd like to echo King Couslands words in saying that we need to wait and see what happens with Briala/Celene because (I know it's gonna end poorly because Celene gets captured and I think it's a bit obvious who turns her in/helps out, but...) it could end up happy.

The problem is that if it does end happily, it'll probably be even worse for the world as a whole, unless the faintly likely happens and Celene winds up siding with the elves somehow.
Either way... you're right, maybe it'll turn out all right, but if the book isn't finished being written yet, maybe I can bring this up and Bioware will hear.

I think you should. I'm sure they'd like to hear it...er if you're polite ofcourse . Who knows though, Leliana mentions albeit in a negative way that lesbianism isn't that unheard of in Orlais. So hopefully we'll get more periphery romances that end well, though we are in the middle of a world shaking war....so I doubt any one is going to be happy any time soon...

[Xilizhra]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But I'd like to echo King Couslands words in saying that we need to wait and see what happens with Briala/Celene because (I know it's gonna end poorly because Celene gets captured and I think it's a bit obvious who turns her in/helps out, but...) it could end up happy.

The problem is that if it does end happily, it'll probably be even worse for the world as a whole, unless the faintly likely happens and Celene winds up siding with the elves somehow.
Either way... you're right, maybe it'll turn out all right, but if the book isn't finished being written yet, maybe I can bring this up and Bioware will hear.

I think you should. I'm sure they'd like to hear it...er if you're polite ofcourse . Who knows though, Leliana mentions albeit in a negative way that lesbianism isn't that unheard of in Orlais. So hopefully we'll get more periphery romances that end well, though we are in the middle of a world shaking war....so I doubt any one is going to be happy any time soon...

Well, I've now posted it, so we'll see if anyone in it replies to this thread. And... no, I really don't have that much hope for Orlais if it's going to be like ME3, but perhaps I should hold out some? Maybe? Things could change...

[LinksOcarina]

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

[Xilizhra]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

Yes, but lesbians are the only ones that don't have any counterexamples to this trend. Which is the point of the thread.

[garrusfan1]

shepard and traynor
leliana and fem warden
isabella and fem hawk
shepard and liara
merill and fem hawk
all those could go alright

[andy6915]

Bioware has never shown transsexualism in a positive way either. Is THAT a trend or a pattern? Again, I think more is being read into here then there should be.

[Xilizhra]

garrusfan1 wrote...

shepard and traynor
leliana and fem warden
isabella and fem hawk
shepard and liara
merill and fem hawk
all those could go alright

A. I'm not counting PC relationships, because none of those are inherent to the character/universe.
B. Shepard and the Warden get screwed over anyway, and Hawke probably does.

Bioware has never shown
transsexualism in a positive way either. Is THAT a trend or a pattern?
Again, I think more is being read into here then there should be.

Yes, but that's a general societal disdain for the concept whose origin is far easier to see, though I fear less will be done to counter it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 mars 2013 - 07:28 .

[wetnasty]

Most romances in games revolving around war and violence are doomed though... You're completely ignoring the other dozens M/M and F/M romances that didn't turn out well.

And when you think about it, most romances are doomed. One partner 90% of the time will die before the other. People cheat. People stop loving each other. People break up. This is life. But the fact that they are THERE, the fact that they are PRESENT and create memories and put a face to controversial issues is the most important thing. Whether they end positively or negatively is irrelevant.

[New Display Name]

andy69156915 wrote...

Bioware has never shown transsexualism in a positive way either. Is THAT a trend or a pattern? Again, I think more is being read into here then there should be.

I would say it's also a pattern/trend...
of the the trans characters in BW games (so far as I know), they are prostitutes played for laughs. The dwarf one seems to be miserable. Also, there are no transmen.

Modifié par HJF4, 29 mars 2013 - 07:30 .

[Xilizhra]

Most romances in games revolving around war and violence are doomed though... You're completely ignoring the other dozens M/M and F/M romances that didn't turn out well.

Had you read the thread, you would have seen that I didn't.

[LinksOcarina]

Xilizhra wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

Yes, but lesbians are the only ones that don't have any counterexamples to this trend. Which is the point of the thread.

Look, you have a sample size of six cases, two of which involve portrayed villians in-game, and one that is unavoidable because its a boss fight.

On the flipside, we have a total of 20+ relationships in the background that either end in tragedy, or imply a tragic ending to them. And this is not including any that involve the player character.  The only exception to this rule is Herren/Wade, and maybe Oghren/Felsi if you go down that road.

If the argument is that only the lesbian couplings end in tragedy, then all straight couplings do too, at least without working at them or not involving the PC. As I said, its more of a story trope than an actual issue if you ask me. Overused story trope, maybe, but a trope nonetheless. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 29 mars 2013 - 07:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Look, you have a sample size of six cases, two of which involve portrayed villians in-game, and one that is unavoidable because its a boss fight.

I gave you ten cases, with a probable eleventh coming up.

On the flipside, we have a total of 20+ relationships in the background that either end in tragedy, or imply a tragic ending to them. And this is not including any that involve the player character. The only exception to this rule is Herren/Wade, and maybe Oghren/Felsi if you go down that road.

And, if you must eliminate several arbitrarily, Jacob/Brynna. As another example.

If the argument is that only the lesbian couplings end in tragedy, then all straight couplings do too, at least without working at them. As I said, its more of a story trope than an actual issue if you ask me. Overused story trope, maybe, but a trope nonetheless.

If that's the case, let us ****ing work at them. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be something.

[Danny Boy 7]

Xilizhra wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But I'd like to echo King Couslands words in saying that we need to wait and see what happens with Briala/Celene because (I know it's gonna end poorly because Celene gets captured and I think it's a bit obvious who turns her in/helps out, but...) it could end up happy.

The problem is that if it does end happily, it'll probably be even worse for the world as a whole, unless the faintly likely happens and Celene winds up siding with the elves somehow.
Either way... you're right, maybe it'll turn out all right, but if the book isn't finished being written yet, maybe I can bring this up and Bioware will hear.

I think you should. I'm sure they'd like to hear it...er if you're polite ofcourse . Who knows though, Leliana mentions albeit in a negative way that lesbianism isn't that unheard of in Orlais. So hopefully we'll get more periphery romances that end well, though we are in the middle of a world shaking war....so I doubt any one is going to be happy any time soon...

Well, I've now posted it, so we'll see if anyone in it replies to this thread. And... no, I really don't have that much hope for Orlais if it's going to be like ME3, but perhaps I should hold out some? Maybe? Things could change...

You know I just thought of something...all of the Asari for centuries before space flight....happy ending

[syllogi]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

When the only examples of a certain type of relationship are all represented by a negative writing trope, then yes, it is an issue that should be addressed.

It's a fact that lesbian relationships in fiction have a long tradition of a) existing purely for purposes of titillation and sensationalism, and being a morality tale warning against the dangers of going against the norm of heterosexuality.  Continuing this trend, even if unintentionally, does send a message, purposeful or not.

It has always been important to me, personally, to see female role models in fiction.  This goes hand in hand with showing healthy female friendships, and stable, happy lesbian romances.  Obviously the writers don't have to cater to my interests, but if pointing this out leads to even minor positive steps, that's a nice thing.

[LinksOcarina]

Xilizhra wrote...

Look, you have a sample size of six cases, two of which involve portrayed villians in-game, and one that is unavoidable because its a boss fight.

I gave you ten cases, with a probable eleventh coming up.

On the flipside, we have a total of 20+ relationships in the background that either end in tragedy, or imply a tragic ending to them. And this is not including any that involve the player character. The only exception to this rule is Herren/Wade, and maybe Oghren/Felsi if you go down that road.

And, if you must eliminate several arbitrarily, Jacob/Brynna. As another example.

If the argument is that only the lesbian couplings end in tragedy, then all straight couplings do too, at least without working at them. As I said, its more of a story trope than an actual issue if you ask me. Overused story trope, maybe, but a trope nonetheless.

If that's the case, let us ****ing work at them. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be something.

Ok.

How would you work at them, exactly? 

[Xilizhra]

Ok.

How would you work at them, exactly?

If you discounted Aveline/Donnic for that reason, then we could do something similar in a non-straight relationship? Maybe?