490 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

syllogi wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

When the only examples of a certain type of relationship are all represented by a negative writing trope, then yes, it is an issue that should be addressed.

It's a fact that lesbian relationships in fiction have a long tradition of a) existing purely for purposes of titillation and sensationalism, and being a morality tale warning against the dangers of going against the norm of heterosexuality.  Continuing this trend, even if unintentionally, does send a message, purposeful or not.

It has always been important to me, personally, to see female role models in fiction.  This goes hand in hand with showing healthy female friendships, and stable, happy lesbian romances.  Obviously the writers don't have to cater to my interests, but if pointing this out leads to even minor positive steps, that's a nice thing.

However, who said the writing trope was a negative one. It is simply a writing trope, a positive or negative denomination is in part put forward by the publics perception.

Until this topic came up, was this a negative portrayal? And on the flipside, are the lesbian realtions so radically different that they actually convey the message above as being a cautionary tale, when compared to other relationships in game?

[LinksOcarina]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ok.

How would you work at them, exactly?

If you discounted Aveline/Donnic for that reason, then we could do something similar in a non-straight relationship? Maybe?

Only if you include Aveline/Wesley as the starting point. Which again falls into the trope. 

[TheJediSaint]

Anyone can find a disturbing trend in something if they cherry pick enough.

[Xilizhra]

However, who said the writing trope was a negative one. It is simply a writing trope, a positive or negative denomination is in part put forward by the publics perception.

Everything is an opinion, yes, but mine is that this is indeed a negative trope when we get nothing else.

Until this topic came up, was this a negative portrayal? And on the flipside, are the lesbian realtions so radically different that they actually convey the message above as being a cautionary tale, when compared to other relationships in game?

In some cases, such as the asari ones and arguably with Hespith, it can be, yes.

Only if you include Aveline/Wesley as the starting point. Which again falls into the trope.

I said similar, not identical.

[LinksOcarina]

Xilizhra wrote...

However, who said the writing trope was a negative one. It is simply a writing trope, a positive or negative denomination is in part put forward by the publics perception.

Everything is an opinion, yes, but mine is that this is indeed a negative trope when we get nothing else.

Until this topic came up, was this a negative portrayal? And on the flipside, are the lesbian realtions so radically different that they actually convey the message above as being a cautionary tale, when compared to other relationships in game?

In some cases, such as the asari ones and arguably with Hespith, it can be, yes.

Only if you include Aveline/Wesley as the starting point. Which again falls into the trope.

I said similar, not identical.

I simply just disagree, especially considering how negative relationships in the background tend to end regarding many characters in both series. 

[Sylvianus]

In M3, we have a female human who is in love with an Asari and she decides to leave her boyfriend because of her. Or maybe, it wasn't considered happy just because of the man who finally remains alone ?

We also had a female human married to an Asari and who calls her " wife ", and she had children with her, so it means that it wasn't a bad thing or doomed. Or you think it wasn't an happy relationship just because of the context of war in M3 ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 mars 2013 - 07:51 .

[Danny Boy 7]

syllogi wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

When the only examples of a certain type of relationship are all represented by a negative writing trope, then yes, it is an issue that should be addressed.

It's a fact that lesbian relationships in fiction have a long tradition of a) existing purely for purposes of titillation and sensationalism, and being a morality tale warning against the dangers of going against the norm of heterosexuality.  Continuing this trend, even if unintentionally, does send a message, purposeful or not.

It has always been important to me, personally, to see female role models in fiction.  This goes hand in hand with showing healthy female friendships, and stable, happy lesbian romances.  Obviously the writers don't have to cater to my interests, but if pointing this out leads to even minor positive steps, that's a nice thing.

I'd like to mention though that Xill is somewhat focusing on background or periphery romances since the Shepard and Hawke have rather "nice" endings to their respective romances. It's just the story ends poorly overall for the former and pontentially for the latter. If we took the romance in an of itself I could say they ended pretty good, but that we need some more background romances that don't necessarilly end good or bad, but are represented in a way that doesn't end in death/betrayal/rape or some other tragic outcome, even if it's just banter on the street of how Lolet and Michelle are happy together and that they're sharing their thirtieth annivery together or just are happy together etc.

[Inquisitor Recon]

TheJediSaint wrote...
Anyone can find a disturbing trend in something if they cherry pick enough.

This.

Also OP needs more conspiracy theory. You need to connect the Illuminati, famous historical American politicians, and the civil war in Syria to this non-issue.

Modifié par Inquisitor Recon, 29 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Sylvianus wrote...

In M3, we have a female human who is in love with an Asari and she decides to leave her boyfriend because of her. Or maybe, it wasn't considered happy just because of the man who finally remains alone ?

We also had a female human married to an Asari and who calls her " wife ", and she had children with her, so it means that it wasn't a bad thing or doomed. Ot don't you think it wasn't an happy relationship just because of the context of war in M3 ?

I mentioned those. The first one seems to break up if you finish the conversation, and the second has their daughter likely torpedoed when Thessia is attacked. Now, technically, that's an improvement on the others, so maybe they're getting a little better, but still, it took until ME3 for it to happen, and it's still pretty bad.

[Aolbain]

Faerunner wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Yes. Bioware hate LGBT people. That's why they have fought for incusion of such characters in their games. This is just part of their agenda.

Inclusion doesn't mean anything if they're presented as more negative, tragic and unhealthy than their straight counterparts.

Well, seeing how Aveline/Donnic is the only non-PC relationship that isn't  tragic I fail to se how gay relationships have been presented as more negative, tragic and unhealthy.

[syllogi]

LinksOcarina wrote...

However, who said the writing trope was a negative one. It is simply a writing trope, a positive or negative denomination is in part put forward by the publics perception.

Until this topic came up, was this a negative portrayal? And on the flipside, are the lesbian realtions so radically different that they actually convey the message above as being a cautionary tale, when compared to other relationships in game?

I don't know about you, but yes, I would consider every single canon (meaning not between the protagonist and an NPC) lesbian relationship mentioned in the OP ending tragically is negative, not to mention a few of them, like Morinth and Nef, and Marjolaine and Leliana/Dorothea, paint at least one of the partners in the relationship as evil and incapable of love.  When you have dozens, if not hundreds of examples of heterosexual relationships that are diverse in their representation of how love can be shown, and then just a handful of lesbian relationships that are all sad and could possibly be seen as lesser than other romantic partnerships (because who would choose to be with "evil" women like Morinth and Marjolaine, or subject themselves to tragedy in the other cases?), then yes, they are different enough to be seen as cautionary tales.

[Sylvianus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

In M3, we have a female human who is in love with an Asari and she decides to leave her boyfriend because of her. Or maybe, it wasn't considered happy just because of the man who finally remains alone ?

We also had a female human married to an Asari and who calls her " wife ", and she had children with her, so it means that it wasn't a bad thing or doomed. Ot don't you think it wasn't an happy relationship just because of the context of war in M3 ?

I mentioned those. The first one seems to break up if you finish the conversation, and the second has their daughter likely torpedoed when Thessia is attacked. Now, technically, that's an improvement on the others, so maybe they're getting a little better, but still, it took until ME3 for it to happen, and it's still pretty bad.

For the second, I'd say that has nothing to do with the lesbian relationship. M3 is about war and its consequences that happen to everyone. that was the point of the game. I don't remember any couple who ends well, personally.  The fact that the woman is married to an asari, calls her " wife "  as if that was normal, shares children with her love, shows how their life was happy before the reapers, how it was a good relationship between them. But if your point is we need absolutely something good and absolutely happy, why not.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 mars 2013 - 08:06 .

[MissOuJ]

syllogi wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

When the only examples of a certain type of relationship are all represented by a negative writing trope, then yes, it is an issue that should be addressed.

It's a fact that lesbian relationships in fiction have a long tradition of a) existing purely for purposes of titillation and sensationalism, and being a morality tale warning against the dangers of going against the norm of heterosexuality.  Continuing this trend, even if unintentionally, does send a message, purposeful or not.

It has always been important to me, personally, to see female role models in fiction.  This goes hand in hand with showing healthy female friendships, and stable, happy lesbian romances.  Obviously the writers don't have to cater to my interests, but if pointing this out leads to even minor positive steps, that's a nice thing.

Exactly! Very elegantly put and 110% on point!

[LinksOcarina]

syllogi wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

However, who said the writing trope was a negative one. It is simply a writing trope, a positive or negative denomination is in part put forward by the publics perception.

Until this topic came up, was this a negative portrayal? And on the flipside, are the lesbian realtions so radically different that they actually convey the message above as being a cautionary tale, when compared to other relationships in game?

I don't know about you, but yes, I would consider every single canon (meaning not between the protagonist and an NPC) lesbian relationship mentioned in the OP ending tragically is negative, not to mention a few of them, like Morinth and Nef, and Marjolaine and Leliana/Dorothea, paint at least one of the partners in the relationship as evil and incapable of love.  When you have dozens, if not hundreds of examples of heterosexual relationships that are diverse in their representation of how love can be shown, and then just a handful of lesbian relationships that are all sad and could possibly be seen as lesser than other romantic partnerships (because who would choose to be with "evil" women like Morinth and Marjolaine, or subject themselves to tragedy in the other cases?), then yes, they are different enough to be seen as cautionary tales.

I guess I just don't see it that way to even consider it. Take that as you will in the end, I won't deny how you feel though. 

[Xilizhra]

MissOuJ wrote...

syllogi wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I'm just going to come out and say it, but this is a non-issue.

Simply put, romances in jeopardy breathe easy dramatic tension. As many have pointed out several characters in many of the BioWare games have had this. It is not confined to hetero/homosexual couplings at all.

It is simply a writing trope.

When the only examples of a certain type of relationship are all represented by a negative writing trope, then yes, it is an issue that should be addressed.

It's a fact that lesbian relationships in fiction have a long tradition of a) existing purely for purposes of titillation and sensationalism, and being a morality tale warning against the dangers of going against the norm of heterosexuality.  Continuing this trend, even if unintentionally, does send a message, purposeful or not.

It has always been important to me, personally, to see female role models in fiction.  This goes hand in hand with showing healthy female friendships, and stable, happy lesbian romances.  Obviously the writers don't have to cater to my interests, but if pointing this out leads to even minor positive steps, that's a nice thing.

Exactly! Very elegantly put and 110% on point!

Indeed. Thank you, both.

[Dean_the_Young]

They'd be cautionary tales if there was something particularly cautionary about them... or if being lesbian were in any way a part of why they went wrong. The greatest commonalities that exist here are (a) this person is evil, or ( you're in the dragon age universe, which sucks on general principle.

I mean, really, Morinth? Nef? That wasn't a cautionary tale about lesbianism: that was a black widow seductress to demonstrate a dark side of the Asari, who they wanted to paint black as night by using the most cringe-worthy emotional appeal of an innocent victim they could think of: a white young sensitive artistic virgin girl. If Nef had been Ned and some lovelorn guy, people would be laughing at him. Cringe at the lack of subtlety all you want, and certainly be annoyed at the implicit cultural bias, but really: at least be able to spot what they were trying to do before you start assigning motives.


Xil's doing what she often does, and is assigning malice where incompetence will do. Though incompetence is a bit off in this case, when simple sample bias already plays a long ways in it. The helpful will interpretation isn't helping the objectivity either: clearly the dying words of a woman towards her bondmate, filled with regret at departing this world and a solemn moment towards the tragedy of war, is actually a case of passive bigotry.

[Xilizhra]

Xil's doing what she often does, and is assigning malice where incompetence will do. Though incompetence is a bit off in this case, when simple sample bias already plays a long ways in it. The helpful will interpretation isn't helping the objectivity either: clearly the dying words of a woman towards her bondmate, filled with regret at departing this world and a solemn moment towards the tragedy of war, is actually a case of passive bigotry.

I was talking about incompetence to begin with; I never said Bioware was doing this deliberately, especially since the writers are all different. I just thought I should point it out as an example of a trend to be reversed. And the "Dragon Age universe sucks" thing really doesn't apply when we do see some straight relationships and one gay male one working out.

[Sith Grey Warden]

If there's a lack of "happy" lesbian relationships, it's an anomaly caused by the smaller sample size. There are just plain more hetero relationships, so there is a greater chance of outliers that don't end in tragedy.

I would by no means be opposed to a lesbian relationship that doesn't end in tragedy, but it's a stretch to see any "pattern" here beyond Bioware using relationships in general for tragedy.

Modifié par Sith Grey Warden, 29 mars 2013 - 08:14 .

[MissOuJ]

Sylvianus wrote...

For the second, I'd say that has nothing to do with the lesbian relationship. M3 is about war and its consequences that happen to everyone. that was the point of the game. I don't remember any couple who ends well, personally.  The fact that the woman is married to an asari, calls her " wife "  as if that was normal, shares children with her love, shows how their life was happy before the reapers, how it was a good relationship between them. But if your point is we need absolutely something good and absolutely happy, why not.

There are still hetero relationships that do not end in tragedy, or if they do, it's not explicitly explained - by which I mean you're not delivering the other woman's dying message to her partner as a sidequest.

For example: Gabby and Kenneth, Jeff and EDI, Garrus and Tali (from ME3), Aveline and Donnic, Fenris and Isabela (from DA2).

On the other hand, as the OP said, I can't name a single female SS relationship that has been portayed as being successful, even if that's just temporary (as in the case of Fenris and Isabela, for example). And while that might not be intentional, as many have mentioned, it is part of a disturbing trend which has really unfortunate implications, so it is definitedly problematic.

This is not to say that all SS romances - female or male - should always end with sunshine and roses and marriage proposals, but if we can't name even one NPC relationship that subverts the trope, then I think we might have a problem in out hands.

(Seriously, I wish unromanced Traynor had hooked up with unromances Liara, for example. That semi-awkward banter would've been hilarious, and they so would have bonded geeking over Liara's ShadowBroker datafeeds.)

Modifié par MissOuJ, 29 mars 2013 - 08:29 .

[syllogi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I mean, really, Morinth? Nef? That wasn't a cautionary tale about lesbianism: that was a black widow seductress to demonstrate a dark side of the Asari, who they wanted to paint black as night by using the most cringe-worthy emotional appeal of an innocent victim they could think of: a white young sensitive artistic virgin girl. If Nef had been Ned and some lovelorn guy, people would be laughing at him. Cringe at the lack of subtlety all you want, and certainly be annoyed at the implicit cultural bias, but really: at least be able to spot what they were trying to do before you start assigning motives.

Except, intentionally or not, Morinth is a textbook example of the Lesbian Vampire trope, which has been around even longer than Dracula...I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a blatant nod.  And, because it's a nod to that trope, again, whether it's meant or not, the storyline does get the baggage that comes along with it, ie, the symbolism and reputation that this trope has built over time.  Nothing exists in a void, including Bioware plots.  Nef was an innocent young woman, and Morinth was a cold blooded murderer who tricked her into falling in love with her, with tragic results.  You don't have to pay attention to the symbolism and subtext, but that doesn't mean it's not there, or not significant to others.

Again, I'm not saying that Bioware set out with an agenda in regards to lesbian relationships, I'm saying that more diversity in representation, and more attention to what messages are being sent in the current trend, is a valid topic for discussion.

[Enigmatick]

So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

[LinksOcarina]

Enigmatick wrote...

So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

We need gameplay to discuss first.

Were still in the dark on that front, all other options have been exhausted. 

[Enigmatick]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

We need gameplay to discuss first.

Were still in the dark on that front, all other options have been exhausted. 

Good point, just feels like people aren't even trying 

[Wulfram]

Enigmatick wrote...

So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

Please feel free to post a thread about a gameplay issue that concerns you.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 mars 2013 - 08:45 .

[Sylvianus]

MissOuJ wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

For the second, I'd say that has nothing to do with the lesbian relationship. M3 is about war and its consequences that happen to everyone. that was the point of the game. I don't remember any couple who ends well, personally.  The fact that the woman is married to an asari, calls her " wife "  as if that was normal, shares children with her love, shows how their life was happy before the reapers, how it was a good relationship between them. But if your point is we need absolutely something good and absolutely happy, why not.

There are still hetero relationships that do not end in tragedy, or if they do, it's not explicitly explained - by which I mean you're not delivering the other woman's dying message to her partner as a sidequest.

For example: Gabby and Kenneth, Jeff and EDI, Garrus and Tali (from ME3), Aveline and Donnic, Fenris and Isabela (from DA2).

On the other hand, as the OP said, I can't name a single female SS relationship that has been portayed as being successful, even if that's just temporary (as in the case of Fenris and Isabela, for example). And while that might not be intentional, as many have mentioned, it is part of a disturbing trend which has really unfortunate implications, so it is definitedly problematic.

This is not to say that all SS romances - female or male - should always end with sunshine and roses and marriage proposals, but if we can't name even one NPC relationship that subverts the trope, then I think we might have a problem in out hands.

(Seriously, I wish unromanced Traynor had hooked up with unromances Liara, for example. That semi-awkward banter would've been hilarious, and they so would have bonded geeking over Liara's ShadowBroker datafeeds.)

Mhh, that's right. I didn't see it, but now... Yeah. I finally agree with you and the Op. It seems reasonable. I mean,  it's a good thing to point out.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 mars 2013 - 08:46 .