490 réponses à ce sujet

[ShaggyWolf]

I really don't think there's some great scheme or intentional pattern here. Besides, Morrigan left my Warden at the end of DA:O, and even if you count the Witch Hunt DLC, most of the choices don't let the two get reuinited, so tragic relationships are hardly a lesbian only thing in BW games.

A couple other examples include Cortez and his dead husband, Jack and her dead bf, Cailan betraying Anora, Kahlee's relationship with Anderson, let's not forget how that ultimately ends. Femshep and Thane, Femshep and Jacob. Zaeed's asari GF betrays him to the blood pack. Kasumi and Keiji. Samesh and Nirali Bhatia.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that I could name examples all day. The point is, there are plenty of tragic relationships in Bioware games between all kinds of different characters.

[addiction21]

Wow really just scraping the bottom of the bucket for things to moan about.

[Wulfram]

Valadras21 wrote...

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that I could name examples all day. The point is, there are plenty of tragic relationships in Bioware games between all kinds of different characters.

The problem isn't the presence of tragic examples but the absence of happy ones.

And I don't think anyone is alleging the presence of a grand scheme or intentional pattern.  Just saying that it's an unfortunate pattern that would be nice if it was broken.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[Isaidlunch]

It definitely seems like something that's been overlooked; it's similar to what happened with their depiction of transexual characters. It's only been up until recently with the comics that they've shown a transexual character that wasn't put in as a joke. I can't see anything wrong with what the OP is asking.

Enigmatick wrote...

So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

You say this in almost every thread. Just because people aren't discussing what you want to discuss doesn't mean you have to come into every thread you don't like and whine about it.

Modifié par Kazanth, 29 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Enigmatick wrote...
So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

Welcome to BSN. It never changes.

Modifié par Inquisitor Recon, 29 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Wulfram wrote...

Valadras21 wrote...

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that I could name examples all day. The point is, there are plenty of tragic relationships in Bioware games between all kinds of different characters.

The problem isn't the presence of tragic examples but the absence of happy ones.

And I don't think anyone is alleging the presence of a grand scheme or intentional pattern.  Just saying that it's an unfortunate pattern that would be nice if it was broken.

Precisely.  Tragic couples are fine, but not every couple being tragic would be an improvement, and I'm not sure why anyone wants to argue against this.  Most of the arguments I've seen boil down to "Well, a lot of het couples aren't happy either!" and that's true, but there's a difference between most being tragic and all being tragic, and that's the key issue.

[Commander Kurt]

Xilizhra
Then there's another human woman trying to get her asari daughter to Thessia... which succeeds, yes, but given Thessia's ultimate fate, this just seems to be ****ed irony.

The main problem with your theory is that you aren't following your own rules. In the cases where we don't know how the relationship fares (and this is basically all your examples of happy hetero relationships, they're that peripheral), you decide that the hetero couples get out and the lesbian ones don't. That's just weak argumentation.

You can't assume tragedy when we aren't shown it just because it fits your case. Thus, you do have a happy one. If you want happier relationships I'm not gonna shoot it down, but don't construct arguments such as this to make it seem like such a thing is owed. Fairness is a very strong argument and I hate to see it misused.

[RedArmyShogun]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...
So we just jump from one social justice topic to another instead of discussing gameplay on here, huh?

Welcome to BSN. It never changes.

[Xilizhra]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Xilizhra
Then there's another human woman trying to get her asari daughter to Thessia... which succeeds, yes, but given Thessia's ultimate fate, this just seems to be ****ed irony.

The main problem with your theory is that you aren't following your own rules. In the cases where we don't know how the relationship fares (and this is basically all your examples of happy hetero relationships, they're that peripheral), you decide that the hetero couples get out and the lesbian ones don't. That's just weak argumentation.

You can't assume tragedy when we aren't shown it just because it fits your case. Thus, you do have a happy one. If you want happier relationships I'm not gonna shoot it down, but don't construct arguments such as this to make it seem like such a thing is owed. Fairness is a very strong argument and I hate to see it misused.

It's true that tragedy here is more of an implication than an outright statement, and it's true that ME3 could be a very slim sign that they're improving (it's better, at any rate, than ME2, which was pretty awful), but since it takes place at almost the same time that Thessia gets steamrollered, I'm having a very hard time believing that it all goes well narratively. Basically, it has a strong reason not to go well, whereas the hetero ones don't have as much of one.

[valkulon]

I wouldn't count the Asari relationships considering the way they are; especially Mornith x Nef as Mornith was a predator preying on a certain type which Nef fit. There is the argument for why was it a female artist and not a male artist, but that is another thing altogether.

The Celene x Briala pairing I would say doesn't fit either, but that is mostly because it's a Human x Elf pairing. Each having to make a major decision regarding their people and that decision conflicting with their love for the other is a pretty classic story telling trope. If the pairing was a Human x Human I would agree with you that it has a chance of falling into the trope you're referencing.

I do see what you're getting at though and Bioware could do a better job to in making sure they're not falling into a negative trope. I would say that they are only human though so it happens, but they are also paving the way in bringing same-sex couples/romances in their games, and like every other change within human society it takes time.

Modifié par Valhart, 29 mars 2013 - 09:21 .

[Knight of Dane]

As such I support more.. Happy.. Normal? gay/lesbian relationships, but I don't think bioware deliberately have made those already present unhappy/tragic.

[LarryDavid]

Kazanth wrote...

It definitely seems like something that's been overlooked; it's similar to what happened with their depiction of transexual characters. It's only been up until recently with the comics that they've shown a transexual character that wasn't put in as a joke. I can't see anything wrong with what the OP is asking.

And now it is only a matter of time before someone starts complaining about the fact that all transexual characters in DA comics end up being tortured in a dungeon

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a blatant nod

I'm a white male gamer. I think inclusiveness is a great thing. What your comment does, however, is scare me.

I don't typically play women (or homosexuals) in RPGs where I have that choice, because to myself it always comes across in my head as how a white male gamer thinks is an appropriate action for a female/homosexual. It presents a layer of cognitive dissonance that I struggle to get past, because I feel like I'm just implicitly putting in my own misconceptions into the character. Sort of like those experiments where you have people in a room pretend to be someone else in the room, and everyone just acts like caricatures of individuals.

Now, if you're going to take a character like Morinth and implicitly place some assumptions that she's the Lesbian Vampire, and not only that, but also make assumptions that it's probably done on purpose, it scares me.

Because it comes across as "Well you tried, but you failed and in doing so ended up insulting me more than otherwise." I'm not a writer, but I have experimented with making modules in the past and I typically shy away from things I'm not familiar with because I'm afraid I'll just **** it up.


Inclusivity is great, but keep in mind that the end goal of being all inclusive is that we all won't even notice these things. We are a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong ways away from that level of inclusiveness, but if we go out of our way to avoid tropes, what it means is that the moment we establish something (such as the Asari being all female), we effectively paint ourselves into a corner. It means that with the Ardat-Yashi, we have excluded ourselves from ever having Ardat-Yakshi that prey on women simply because it turns into the Lesbian Vampire trope. In my opinion, this isn't a good thing either.


I'm likely just being overly sensitive (especially since I don't actually make the content being requested here), but effectively seeing "Yeah I'm pretty sure it was just an explicit nod to the trope" and even stuff like " so maybe they're getting a little better, but still, it took until ME3 for it to happen, and it's still pretty bad" (does this mean we shouldn't try for DA3? I mean, wouldn't that just frustrate people that they had to wait as long as DA3 to get something that was more pleasant). I'm certainly getting the impression that if we do try, we better not **** it up or it only comes across much worse and ends up undermining our entire intent of trying to be more inclusive.


So the entire idea of "lets have some happier lesbian relationships" is a simple enough request, as the thread has gone on it's become increasingly critical as BioWare is now displaying some level of incompetence (sure, I'm sure my impressions of a gay character would not be that well done - if that's how one defines incompetence then sure it's incompetence) or even possibly implicit acknowledgment of various tropes.


EDIT: Added an important "if"

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 29 mars 2013 - 10:22 .

[Commander Kurt]

Xilizhra wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

Xilizhra
Then there's another human woman trying to get her asari daughter to Thessia... which succeeds, yes, but given Thessia's ultimate fate, this just seems to be ****ed irony.

The main problem with your theory is that you aren't following your own rules. In the cases where we don't know how the relationship fares (and this is basically all your examples of happy hetero relationships, they're that peripheral), you decide that the hetero couples get out and the lesbian ones don't. That's just weak argumentation.

You can't assume tragedy when we aren't shown it just because it fits your case. Thus, you do have a happy one. If you want happier relationships I'm not gonna shoot it down, but don't construct arguments such as this to make it seem like such a thing is owed. Fairness is a very strong argument and I hate to see it misused.

It's true that tragedy here is more of an implication than an outright statement, and it's true that ME3 could be a very slim sign that they're improving (it's better, at any rate, than ME2, which was pretty awful), but since it takes place at almost the same time that Thessia gets steamrollered, I'm having a very hard time believing that it all goes well narratively. Basically, it has a strong reason not to go well, whereas the hetero ones don't have as much of one.

The point is that you are changing the rules as it suits your cause. That relationship is a tragedy because the daughter dies? Yet you use Shep's parents as a happy example. People on Thessia have a strong reason not to make it? Yet people on earth are positive examples, such as Kaidan's folks. 

It just isn't a very good argument to start with, as contrived as it is, and it isn't needed. Just ask for happier lesbian relationships. It isn't really a trend or some such, it just isn't, but as a fan request I think it has merit.

[Xilizhra]

Now, if you're going to take a character like Morinth and implicitly place some assumptions that she's the Lesbian Vampire, and not only that, but also make assumptions that it's probably done on purpose, it scares me.

Well, really. She stalks nightclubs and drains life force. Also, she travels aboard the starship Demeter, a name originally used for the ship that brought Dracula to England. There's not much in the way of other places you can really go.

Inclusivity is great, but keep in mind that the end goal of being all inclusive is that we all won't even notice these things. We are a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong ways away from that level of inclusiveness, but we go out of our way to avoid tropes, what it means is that the moment we establish something (such as the Asari being all female), we effectively paint ourselves into a corner. It means that with the Ardat-Yashi, we have excluded ourselves from ever having Ardat-Yakshi that prey on women simply because it turns into the Lesbian Vampire trope. In my opinion, this isn't a good thing either.

I marginally agree, in that the Ardat-Yakshi weren't a very good idea to begin with. So... you're half right in that statement.

I'm likely just being overly sensitive (especially since I don't actually make the content being requested here), but effectively seeing "Yeah I'm pretty sure it was just an explicit nod to the trope" and even stuff like " so maybe they're getting a little better, but still, it took until ME3 for it to happen, and it's still pretty bad" (does this mean we shouldn't try for DA3? I mean, wouldn't that just frustrate people that they had to wait as long as DA3 to get something that was more pleasant). I'm certainly getting the impression that if we do try, we better not **** it up or it only comes across much worse and ends up undermining our entire intent of trying to be more inclusive.

It's not hard to not screw it up, that's the thing. Just include relationships that don't end with them dying/breaking up/what have you.

[iOnlySignIn]

Right.

BioWare games are full of happy, uneventful, and completely ordinary background heterosexual couples who never die/breakup/what have you.

Because those are very interesting for everyone and should be included in any good work of fiction.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mars 2013 - 10:21 .

[Sejborg]

An interesting observation.

I don't think Bioware had some agenda to push that lesbian relationships is meant to be doomed. I just don't think they were aware it could be perceived as such. Neither was I.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Xil's doing what she often does, and is assigning malice where incompetence will do. Though incompetence is a bit off in this case, when simple sample bias already plays a long ways in it. The helpful will interpretation isn't helping the objectivity either: clearly the dying words of a woman towards her bondmate, filled with regret at departing this world and a solemn moment towards the tragedy of war, is actually a case of passive bigotry.

I was talking about incompetence to begin with; I never said Bioware was doing this deliberately, especially since the writers are all different. I just thought I should point it out as an example of a trend to be reversed. And the "Dragon Age universe sucks" thing really doesn't apply when we do see some straight relationships and one gay male one working out.

You have held a very selective definition of what constitutes a relationship working out or not, and you've jumped through mental hoops to disqualify counter-examples of your thesis (PC characters and relationships being discounted despite being, you know, the primary relationship focuses in the games), while holding up relationships of ambiguous resolution (Samara) or extremely minor role as key points. You've taken an exceedingly small sample size, acknowledged that it isn't even reflective of the same writers or products, noted that the reasons behind the 'tragedies' are divergent from eachother, and pre-emptively jumped on a relationship not even released that you have no context or understanding of. To round it off, you did begin to ascribe rations for this, such as corporate culture or trope addiction, when you can't even establish the same tropes being used exclusively to these sorts of relationships alone.


Xilizra, you can invent any sort of pattern you want out of incompetent reasoning like that.

[Commander Kurt]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a blatant nod

I'm a white male gamer. I think inclusiveness is a great thing. What your comment does, however, is scare me.

I don't typically play women (or homosexuals) in RPGs where I have that choice, because to myself it always comes across in my head as how a white male gamer thinks is an appropriate action for a female/homosexual. It presents a layer of cognitive dissonance that I struggle to get past, because I feel like I'm just implicitly putting in my own misconceptions into the character. Sort of like those experiments where you have people in a room pretend to be someone else in the room, and everyone just acts like caricatures of individuals.

Now, if you're going to take a character like Morinth and implicitly place some assumptions that she's the Lesbian Vampire, and not only that, but also make assumptions that it's probably done on purpose, it scares me.

Because it comes across as "Well you tried, but you failed and in doing so ended up insulting me more than otherwise." I'm not a writer, but I have experimented with making modules in the past and I typically shy away from things I'm not familiar with because I'm afraid I'll just **** it up.


Inclusivity is great, but keep in mind that the end goal of being all inclusive is that we all won't even notice these things. We are a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong ways away from that level of inclusiveness, but we go out of our way to avoid tropes, what it means is that the moment we establish something (such as the Asari being all female), we effectively paint ourselves into a corner. It means that with the Ardat-Yashi, we have excluded ourselves from ever having Ardat-Yakshi that prey on women simply because it turns into the Lesbian Vampire trope. In my opinion, this isn't a good thing either.


I'm likely just being overly sensitive (especially since I don't actually make the content being requested here), but effectively seeing "Yeah I'm pretty sure it was just an explicit nod to the trope" and even stuff like " so maybe they're getting a little better, but still, it took until ME3 for it to happen, and it's still pretty bad" (does this mean we shouldn't try for DA3? I mean, wouldn't that just frustrate people that they had to wait as long as DA3 to get something that was more pleasant). I'm certainly getting the impression that if we do try, we better not **** it up or it only comes across much worse and ends up undermining our entire intent of trying to be more inclusive.


So the entire idea of "lets have some happier lesbian relationships" is a simple enough request, as the thread has gone on it's become increasingly critical as BioWare is now displaying some level of incompetence (sure, I'm sure my impressions of a gay character would not be that well done - if that's how one defines incompetence then sure it's incompetence) or even possibly implicit acknowledgment of various tropes.

Still, your points are actually making this discussion more important as it is a way for a minority group to give feedback that, as you state, may be more needed than most. It might come across as off-putting to even try when all you get is crap, but I sure hope that isn't the case...? Most of us, including the op I'm sure, are grateful for the effort, we're just trying to help you out in making it even better. :innocent:

Speaking as another gaming minority, I remember a dev (not bioware) saying something similar about women, that they were reluctant to put strong women in the game because they felt they, as men, couldn't do it right, but that scared me. It was a wake up call, much as your post is, to remember that we're all still learning and trying to progress.

[Dean_the_Young]

syllogi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I mean, really, Morinth? Nef? That wasn't a cautionary tale about lesbianism: that was a black widow seductress to demonstrate a dark side of the Asari, who they wanted to paint black as night by using the most cringe-worthy emotional appeal of an innocent victim they could think of: a white young sensitive artistic virgin girl. If Nef had been Ned and some lovelorn guy, people would be laughing at him. Cringe at the lack of subtlety all you want, and certainly be annoyed at the implicit cultural bias, but really: at least be able to spot what they were trying to do before you start assigning motives.

Except, intentionally or not, Morinth is a textbook example of the Lesbian Vampire trope, which has been around even longer than Dracula...I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a blatant nod.  And, because it's a nod to that trope, again, whether it's meant or not, the storyline does get the baggage that comes along with it, ie, the symbolism and reputation that this trope has built over time.  Nothing exists in a void, including Bioware plots.  Nef was an innocent young woman, and Morinth was a cold blooded murderer who tricked her into falling in love with her, with tragic results.  You don't have to pay attention to the symbolism and subtext, but that doesn't mean it's not there, or not significant to others.

Yeah, I am looking at the symbolism and subtext. Nef was a young sensitive white woman because that's the most sympathetic romance-victim profile Bioware knows in ME2: male promiscuity would have been mocked, an immoral person would have been seen as 'deserving it', and they were attempting to maximize the sympathy cards. Picking out a single trope that partly encapsulates this instance doesn't exactly demonstrate anything other than that, who would have guessed, fiction reuses the same devices. All Bioware characters and events can be filed away in various tropes.

Again, I'm not saying that Bioware set out with an agenda in regards to lesbian relationships, I'm saying that more diversity in representation, and more attention to what messages are being sent in the current trend, is a valid topic for discussion.

Sure. In this case, however, you're making a weak case. Bioware isn't overwhelming its audience with the same Lesbian Vampire trope over and over, and the only commonality in Xil's list of lesbian flops is that they're lesbian flops: not the reasons they failed, not the character dynamics or presentation, not context or emphasis, not even the role in the narrative. She is even having to disqualify the largest lesbian relationships in the narratives, the player romances, because it's inconvenient for her argument that there's a clear pattern.

It's one thing to say 'hey, there aren't many successful lesbian relationships between NPCs.' It's another to start searching for a conspiracatorial basis for a pattern when your sample population is both small and selectively biased.

[RaidenXS]

are asari definitivly female? or just have similer traits that female humans have? Maybe they're all hermaphrodites

[Sejborg]

RaidenXS wrote...

are asari definitivly female? or just have similer traits that female humans have? Maybe they're all hermaphrodites

Nope. All female according to the lore.

[Dean_the_Young]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Still, your points are actually making this discussion more important as it is a way for a minority group to give feedback that, as you state, may be more needed than most. It might come across as off-putting to even try when all you get is crap, but I sure hope that isn't the case...? Most of us, including the op I'm sure, are grateful for the effort, we're just trying to help you out in making it even better. :innocent:

Speaking as another gaming minority, I remember a dev (not bioware) saying something similar about women, that they were reluctant to put strong women in the game because they felt they, as men, couldn't do it right, but that scared me. It was a wake up call, much as your post is, to remember that we're all still learning and trying to progress.

There's also an element of trope adversion in what he's writing about: the idea that there's some obligation, moral or otherwise, to avoid repeating a trope that could possibly be interpreted in a certain way.

That's simply double-guessing yourself, and it's beyond silly to downright counter-productive. Tropes can't be avoided: there hasn't been new literary devices in aeons, only remixes of less remembered ones. People can, and will, take offense to just about anything your do or say, and will take efforts to present things in such a way to justify their offense. Trying to avoid giving any offense is futile, and is just as likely to be offensive in itself.

Take, to point on topic, the idea of happily successful lesbian romances. We can give the player access to lesbian romances. We can treat the player character and the significant other as happy, content, emotionally balanced, and going in a positive direction. We can assure that audience both parties live (the Warden, Hawke, Destroy!Shepard, and heavily imply that they remain together or will get back together as the credits roll and the hero metaphorically is left to go off into the sunset. We can throw in all the 'I love you' assurances, emotional support between the characters, and even the prospect of little blue babies that's what you want.

Someone is still going to wave that all aside and say it doesn't count, to take issue with how something else presents the issue, and claim that it's an issue of incompetence or failure.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 mars 2013 - 10:45 .