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[Goneaviking]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...


Gotcha. Bioware please insert some token happy lesbians into your next game. Because seriously, that's the level of criticism you're getting now.

Lol.
Lesbians deserve positive relationships too. Why is that so unreasonable of a request?

It's not.

What is unreasonable is the way we've got a whole stream of criticisms lumping together the endings about relationships that ended tragically because of factors inside the relationship (Marjolaine/Leliana), the ones that that ended tragically because of extraneous events (the asari commando in the ardat-yakshi monastery or the soldier who ships her daughter to Thessia for safe keeping), and the ones that just end (the asari who urges her human lover to send her husband a dear john letter while he's on the front lines away completely cut off from conversation).

I've observed before that I regard the relationship of the soldier in the embassy trying to send her daughter to safety to be a positive relationship. In the handful of dialogues we witness from that conversation it's strongly implied that the couple faced discrimination and ostracism, but that they've retained their feelings for each other and for their daughter. The reaper invasion, and all that implies, doesn't negate that depiction.

Further we've got the bizarre limitation that we're supposed to ignore the lesbian relationship options available to the various protagonists, as if they generally positive relationships. In regards to the OP that's fair enough because they were talking about minor characters, but the conversation has drifted by this stage to include  one poster who openly speculates that it's Bioware trying to send a message, and others who seem to imply that it's symptomatic of darker issues.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 30 mars 2013 - 02:35 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Foshizzlin wrote...
There's a point where we need to say "Hey, it's just a video game."

Not on BSN.

I think the way Ashley and Liara refused a threesome in ME1, plus the general lack of polygamous relationships is a secret message from the developers against the Mormon faith and others who are into that sort of thing. Why doesn't this cause get attention? Where is the justice?

[sandalisthemaker]

Goneaviking wrote...


It's not.

What is unreasonable is the way we've got a whole stream of criticisms lumping together the endings about relationships that ended tragically because of factors inside the relationship (Marjolaine/Leliana), the ones that that ended tragically because of extraneous events (the asari commando in the ardat-yakshi monastery or the soldier who ships her daughter to Thessia for safe keeping), and the ones that just end (the asari who urges her human lover to send her husband a dear john letter while he's on the front lines away completely cut off from conversation).

I've observed before that I regard the relationship of the soldier in the embassy trying to send her daughter to safety to be a positive relationship. In the handful of dialogues we witness from that conversation it's strongly implied that the couple faced discrimination and ostracism, but that they've retained their feelings for each other and for their daughter. The reaper invasion, and all that implies, doesn't negate that depiction.

Further we've got the bizarre limitation that we're supposed to ignore the lesbian relationship options available to the various protagonists, as if they generally positive relationships. In regards to the OP that's fair enough because they were talking about minor characters, but the conversation has drifted by this stage to include  one poster who openly speculates that it's Bioware trying to send a message, and others who seem to imply that it's symptomatic of darker issues.

I think OP just wants at least *some* lesbian relationships to not crash and burn. That's not unreasonable, and you seem to agree. So, fine.
I'm not saying that Bioware is explicitly sending a negative message. I'm saying that a message is being sent via an ongoing pattern. Some people don't notice, others don't care. When someone does notice and does care, because these issues are important to them, they are accused of being whiny, unreasonable, nitpicky, etc.

[BlueMagitek]

A better question is to why all the Tim Curry people in the game are evil. Now, yes, Tim Curry can be evil, but he can also be a good guy. Okay, maybe not a good guy, but not a bad guy either. I mean, yeah, Long John is technically the bad guy, but he isn't really a bad guy.

I'm just saying, we need more Tim Curry and not having him again is discrimination or something.

[TheJediSaint]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

*snip*

I think OP just wants at least *some* lesbian relationships to not crash and burn. That's not unreasonable, and you seem to agree. So, fine.
I'm not saying that Bioware is explicitly sending a negative message. I'm saying that a message is being sent via an ongoing pattern. Some people don't notice, others don't care. When someone does notice and does care, because these issues are important to them, they are accused of being whiny, unreasonable, nitpicky, etc.

It's fine to point out a pattern when they see one.  But it's counterprodutive to immediatly jump to the worst possible conclusion based on that pattern.  

[TheJediSaint]

BlueMagitek wrote...

A better question is to why all the Tim Curry people in the game are evil. Now, yes, Tim Curry can be evil, but he can also be a good guy. Okay, maybe not a good guy, but not a bad guy either. I mean, yeah, Long John is technically the bad guy, but he isn't really a bad guy.

I'm just saying, we need more Tim Curry and not having him again is discrimination or something.

Bioware discriminates against heroes because they always give villians better voices.

[Inquisitor Recon]

What about the way Sandal is capable of brutal slaughter when left alone? Harmless joke? Or a nefarious smear campaign against those with mental disabilities?

[slimgrin]

RED ALERT! RED ALERT!

BSN lesbians have been disturbed.

[C9316]

It's Bioware's conspiracy to alienate all the lesbians and lessen the grip the she-devils have on BSN!

Or you could just be over analyzing the crap out of this particular subject, whichever one sounds more likely.

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
...argument sides start to become competing teams and nobody wants to lose.

I liked the article, but disliked the frequent implication that the way Americans react to facts that contradict their political views is somehow a 'natural mental defense' as opposed to a culturally created behavior.

[sandalisthemaker]

sigh

[Maria Caliban]

There's an amazing amount of douchebaggery on this page.

[Sibu]

Seriously... you are making a thread about this Xilizhra?

[Xilizhra]

Either I was unclear, or people are jumping on me out of paranoia. So allow me to clarify: I don't think that Bioware is doing this on purpose. Whether it's incompetence or not... well, it's a word Dean brought up originally; I'd prefer to use "somewhat thoughtless." It's something to watch yourself on, primarily.

Whether any of said relationships fail because of their sexual preferences does not matter a damn, the problem is the pattern that exists in their failing to begin with.

Now, the whole Thessia relationship thing. I will concede that it's not a perfect example of the pattern, and that it may be representing something of a shift outward. If you can take that and then maybe use it in a way that doesn't imply that anyone is going to die horribly thereafter, you'll be completely fine. Progress has been made over time, which is good, but I would advise you to not become complacent.

[ShaggyWolf]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The problem isn't the presence of tragic examples but the absence of happy ones.

And I don't think anyone is alleging the presence of a grand scheme or intentional pattern.  Just saying that it's an unfortunate pattern that would be nice if it was broken.

Precisely.  Tragic couples are fine, but not every couple being tragic would be an improvement, and I'm not sure why anyone wants to argue against this.  Most of the arguments I've seen boil down to "Well, a lot of het couples aren't happy either!" and that's true, but there's a difference between most being tragic and all being tragic, and that's the key issue.

Well, after re-reading the OP I'll admit that I've misinterpreted the issue being posed here. In retrospect, I can't think of a single f/f relationship outside of relationships that the player can initiate that end well.

However, I would say that ignoring player character/major NPC relationships is one of the big reasons this seems like a serious issue. If there were no examples of positive f/f relationships at all in any of the ME or DA games, I would say this is something worth getting upset about. The truth is, there ARE examples that break this so-called pattern, which is more likely caused by a consistent writing oversight  than anything else. In other-words, a coincidence.

What I'm trying to say is, when Bioware writers consider whether they are being exclusive, inclusive, unfair, fair, politically correct or otherwise, they probably look over ALL of the story/relationship arcs in their title. Since we're opting to ignore key story arcs, our view becomes skewed towards a more negative viewpoint.

All that said, I am in no way against having more positive f/f relationships portrayed in DA3 and all future bioware titles, I apologize if I've come off that way in my earlier post. I'll agree with the point of this thread: writers should try harder to include positive f/f relationships (and all other types, for that matter) beyond the PC's potential relationships. However, I don't blame them for what they've already done and are currently being criticized for.

[Xilizhra]

Why is it such a big deal? It's a video game.

About which I and others are passionate. I'm quite certain that Bioware prefers us to people just showing bored indifference with the game in general.

All that said, I am in no way against having more positive f/f relationships portrayed in DA3 and all future bioware titles, I apologize if I've come off that way in my earlier post. I'll agree with the point of this thread: writers should try harder to include positive f/f relationships (and all other types, for that matter) beyond the PC's potential relationships. However, I don't blame them for what they've already done and are currently being criticized for.

Well, the Morinth thing was rather clumsily done, and I don't believe that Ardat-Yakshi were a good thing to include at all. Beyond that, no individual incident is that terrible; however, it's a trend that they should watch themselves more carefully on. So in that, we can agree.


Also, I ignored the PC ones because they usually don't actually happen in-universe.

1. I thought you were trying to insinuate some kind of "conspiracy" by Bioware against lesbians.

Never assume malice when you can assume error.

2. Overall, the 100-200 romance threads that pass through BSN every day
or so just annoy me. People seem to think romance and sex surpass
gameplay and story in importance, which is so far from the truth it's
almost painful.

This wasn't actually a PC romance thread, this was about background issues and a book still being written, which might theoretically change, as opposed to the story of the game itself, which will definitely not.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 mars 2013 - 05:35 .