173 réponses à ce sujet

[legbamel]

TIM isn't pure evil at the start, though. Speciesitst and short-sighted, sure, convinved that the ends justify the means, but not evil. It isn't until he starts succumbing to indoctrination that he goes off the rails entirely. He's not the nuanced villain with whom you can really sympathize but ne's hardly a cartoon character. That last conversation on the Citadel Shepard san show him what he's become and he's genuinely tortured to recognize it.

Your dismissive and condescending language is doing you no favors, by the way. "You're stupid because I disagree" is not a reasoned argument.

[Lennard Testarossa]

rejility wrote...
..... and Meredith with her red glowing eyes was any better? Or Orsino the Harvester?

Yes. Saren was bland as **** and any potential IM might have had was thrown out of the window in ME 3.

[Renmiri1]

legbamel wrote...

TIM isn't pure evil at the start, though. Speciesitst and short-sighted, sure, convinved that the ends justify the means, but not evil. It isn't until he starts succumbing to indoctrination that he goes off the rails entirely. He's not the nuanced villain with whom you can really sympathize but ne's hardly a cartoon character. That last conversation on the Citadel Shepard san show him what he's become and he's genuinely tortured to recognize it.

Your dismissive and condescending language is doing you no favors, by the way. "You're stupid because I disagree" is not a reasoned argument.

You are of course correct but how do you suggest I talk with someone that sees "Saren" as a good villain and didn't notice the masterpiece that the Arishok was ?

No glowy eyes. No possession / indocrination / red lyrium. Not evil. Quite wise sometimes. Honorable. Yet complete Qun fanatic and incapable of perceiving any context besides what the Qun wants. But not Xenophobic like TIM. Capable of respecting his adversaries. Capable of welcoming other races into the Qun.

Meredith ? The red lyrium was overkill, she was a very good antagonist without it. Heck, half of the people in this forum side with templars! Do you see anyone siding with Reapers on the ME forum ? THAT is the mark of good antagonist writing - a villain so nuanced that you feel you might side with him / her under different circunstances. Not a EEEEvil one sided bigoted black and white Disney villain!

How can you debate character design with someone so willfully blind as the poster who missed all this and cites ME as perfection? Best I can do is facepalm, point and laugh.


PS: TIM had potential. But like the poster above says, ME3 mangled it badly. And no it's not the same as Meredith. Her character was well written for 99% of the game and goes glowy red eyes insane in the last 2 minutes of the game. TIM goes glowy blue eyes insane during the entirety of ME3 and has maybe 2 minutes of some semblance of nuance and sanity on the last 2 minutes of the game. See the difference ? 20 game hours of good game content + 2 minutes of red lyrium versus 20 game hours of batshiite crazy indocrination + 2 minutes of good writing. 20 hours >>>> 2 minutes. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 06:42 .

[Wulfram]

Rags to riches is just them taking BG2's first act without the actual plot to go with it. And Act 3 is just DA:O's Circle Tower with stupider people.

2nd act is better, but the Arishok basically has the Qun in place of a character.

[Redbelle]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Malsumis wrote...



Antagonists are an integral part of story telling, DA2 antagonists were the weakest of any bioware game I have played. You can't compare DA2 antagonists to IM, Saren

LOL

Saren ? Illusive Man ?

Those are your models of well written antagonists ? 

Oh please, run along child... Come back when you can talk coherently about good writing for a villain

Let me guess... Sauron from Lord of the Rings is a "masterpiece" too right ? Emperor Palpatine ? The Wicked Witch in Snow White ?

G.d even George Lucas, the cheesiest dialog writer in modern fiction was able to add some nuance to some of his villains.. Darth Vader had some tiny ambiguity on him, not pure evil. IM, Sauron, Saren, Palpatine have none.

Disney villains as masterpiece.. What will BSN come up with next ??? 

Did you ever not know which Disney character was the bad guy?

[legbamel]

For me, Meredith was crap because she was nuts from the beginning and they never clarified the reasons for her unreasoning hatred of mages in the narrative. I've evenly split my games between siding with the Templars and the mages because I found neither side truly compelling. The Arishok, however, was well written, indeed.

I do, indeed, see people arguing on the side of the Reapers, not so much because they, themselves, were more than paper dolls but because the old "AI will inevitably turn against its maker" argument. Whatever the case, people are entitled to their opinions and if she found Saren compelling calling her a child is hardly going to convince her to listen to your sensible objections. The DaVinvi Code sold to an awful lot of people and got made into a blockbuster movie, after all, despite its being crap.

[Renmiri1]

Wulfram wrote...

Rags to riches is just them taking BG2's first act without the actual plot to go with it. And Act 3 is just DA:O's Circle Tower with stupider people.

2nd act is better, but the Arishok basically has the Qun in place of a character.

And that is relevant because ?

Of course the Qunari Arishok represents what an Arishok in the Qun does. THAT is the belief behind the Qun. Humanoids are just cogs in a Qun Organism. A knee will act like a knee and bend or support weight. An Arishok will act like an Arishok and lead his soldiers while taking responsibility for their actions.

And no DAO Circle tower has nothing to do with Act 3, unless you count "has demons roaming around" as the only valid criteria. DAO Circle tower a trip to the Fade. I don't recall a trip to the Fade on Act 3. I don't recall finding a bunch of children being protected by an elder mage healer that joins your party. I don't recall having a tortured Templar caged going insane with demons taunting in Act 3. Don't recall having a Blood Mage trying to torture other blood mages to let demons enter them in Act 3. I do not recall fighting against  regular, unpossessed Templars on DAO. Or fighting against unpossessed regular mages. I don't recall being able to take sides on DAO's circle tower.

Are you sure you and I played the same game ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 06:59 .

[Renmiri1]

legbamel wrote...

For me, Meredith was crap because she was nuts from the beginning and they never clarified the reasons for her unreasoning hatred of mages in the narrative.

You missed the reason on Act 3 ?

If you side with her on the start of Act 3 she calls you into the Gallows and tells you the story about her sister being an apostate and killing her entire family.

You can't blame the game writers for "unrealistic characters" if you just read half of the lines describing the character... 

Hence my lack of will to discuss / debate character writing with the poster I was replying to. He missed so much and understands so little.. And doesn't come here to learn, he posted here to say "Saren and TIM and..w/e are the pinnacle of antagonist writing and DA2 had no good antagonists"

Had he just asked, I'd be polite and try to educate him. But since he just tried to pass an uneducated opinion as fact ? He gets scorn.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 06:57 .

[Wulfram]

Renmiri1 wrote...

And that is relevant because ?

Of course the Qunari Arishok represents what an Arishok in the Qun does. THAT is the belief behind the Qun. Humanoids are just cogs in a Qun Organism. A knee will act like a knee and bend or support weight. An Arishok will act like an Arishok and lead his soldiers while taking responsibility for their actions.

Being a guy who acts in arbitrary nonsense ways because he can't think outside of his arbitrary nonsense philosophy doesn't make for a deep character.  It just makes them a plot device.

And it allows the game to pretend he's "honourable" without dealing with any complications that being honourable might present because it's redefined "honourable" to "whatever he does"

And no DAO Circle tower had a trip to teh Fade. I don't recall a trip to the Fade on Act 3. I don't recall finding a bunch of children being protecte by an elder mage healer that joins your party. I don't recall having a tortured Templar caged going insane with demons taunting in Act 3. Don't recall having a Blood Mage trying to torture other blood mages to let demons enter them in Act 3.

If you're going to claim DA2 is bold and non obvious in concept, you can't hide behind such minutiae.  The concept was the same.

That the game shuffled off the fade segment to elsewhere, and that it didn't have the balls to show any mage children doesn't make it innovative.

[Dutchess]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You are of course correct but how do you suggest I talk with someone that sees "Saren" as a good villain and didn't notice the masterpiece that the Arishok was ?

No glowy eyes. No possession / indocrination / red lyrium. Not evil. Quite wise sometimes. Honorable. Yet complete Qun fanatic and incapable of perceiving any context besides what the Qun wants. But not Xenophobic like TIM. Capable of respecting his adversaries. Capable of welcoming other races into the Qun.

Yet even for this character, to move the plot forward and force a confrontation, he had to "lose it" and go crazy due to being homesick. He became little more than another enemy killing/threatening to kill innocent people.

PS: TIM had potential. But like the poster above says, ME3 mangled it badly. And no it's not the same as Meredith. Her character was well written for 99% of the game and goes glowy red eyes insane in the last 2 minutes of the game. TIM goes glowy blue eyes insane during the entirety of ME3 and has maybe 2 minutes of some semblance of nuance and sanity on the last 2 minutes of the game. See the difference ? 20 game hours of good game content + 2 minutes of red lyrium versus 20 game hours of batshiite crazy indocrination + 2 minutes of good writing. 20 hours >>>> 2 minutes. 

Meredith had barely any screentime during those 20 hours, so saying that she's a well-written antagonist for the majority of the game isn't all that fair. You first get to talk to her at the end of act 2, after which more than two-thirds of the game have already passed. She's little more than a strict Knight-Commander during that time, no more interesting than Greagoir in DAO. She would have served well enough as one of two sides at the end of Act 3, true, but that wasn't enough, so what character she had wa swepped away for a mind-controlled lyrium idol goon. 

[Wulfram]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You missed the reason on Act 3 ?

If you side with her on the start of Act 3 she calls you into the Gallows and tells you the story about her sister being an apostate and killing her entire family.

You can't blame the game writers for "unrealistic characters" if you just read half of the lines describing the character... 

You can blame the writers for putting important characterisation in a place where a majority of players aren't going to read it, though.

[Renmiri1]

????

How was the concept the same ?

On DAO you are fighting on hte same side as "good" mages and templars, against a cadre of demons and possessed blood mages. On DAO Act 3 you pick a side - good templars or good mages. And you kill / fight people who could be your allies.

On DAO you see and save good mages (Orwen) and good Templars (Cullen) and your antagonists try to corrupt good templars and good mages. On DA2 Act 3 you battle good people who fought side by side with you on Act 2 against the Arishok. And both sides have reason to fight and do not want to corrupt the other side, they want to a - be free or b - restore order.

I'm not seeing it. Care to explain ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 07:05 .

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

????

How was the concept the same ?

On DAO you are fighting on hte same side as "good" mages and templars, against a cadre of demons and possessed blood mages. On DAO Act 3 you pick a side - good templars or good mages. And you kill / fight people who could be your allies.

On DAO you see and save good mages (Orwen) and good Templars (Cullen) and your antagonists try to corrupt good templars and good mages. On DA2 Act 3 you battle good people who fought side by side with you on Act 2 against the Arishok. And both sides have reason to fight and do not want to corrupt the other side, they want to a - be free or b - restore order.

I'm not seeing it. Care to explain ?

You can do a neutral thing too. Everyone lives.

[Wulfram]

Renmiri1 wrote...

????

How was the concept the same ?

On DAO you are fighting on hte same side as "good" mages and templars, against a cadre of demons and possessed blood mages. On DAO Act 3 you pick a side - good templars or good mages. And you kill / fight people who could be your allies.

I'm not seeing it. Care to explain ?

Mages are pissed off at being oppressed, rebel, summon demons, go crazy.  Annullment called.

Only substantial difference is that Greagoir and Irving don't arbitrarily go crazy

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 avril 2013 - 07:07 .

[Renmiri1]

renjility wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

You are of course correct but how do you suggest I talk with someone that sees "Saren" as a good villain and didn't notice the masterpiece that the Arishok was ?

No glowy eyes. No possession / indocrination / red lyrium. Not evil. Quite wise sometimes. Honorable. Yet complete Qun fanatic and incapable of perceiving any context besides what the Qun wants. But not Xenophobic like TIM. Capable of respecting his adversaries. Capable of welcoming other races into the Qun.

Yet even for this character, to move the plot forward and force a confrontation, he had to "lose it" and go crazy due to being homesick. He became little more than another enemy killing/threatening to kill innocent people.

PS: TIM had potential. But like the poster above says, ME3 mangled it badly. And no it's not the same as Meredith. Her character was well written for 99% of the game and goes glowy red eyes insane in the last 2 minutes of the game. TIM goes glowy blue eyes insane during the entirety of ME3 and has maybe 2 minutes of some semblance of nuance and sanity on the last 2 minutes of the game. See the difference ? 20 game hours of good game content + 2 minutes of red lyrium versus 20 game hours of batshiite crazy indocrination + 2 minutes of good writing. 20 hours >>>> 2 minutes. 

Again the 20 hour / 2 minute rule. Guy was reasonable and wise for 20 game hours and "lost it" for 2 hours or so. Then regained some of his sanity and did the honorable thing (in my PT) deciding the fate of the invasion in an honorable duel with Hawke.

Saren ? Just the opposite. Can't even recall him being "reasonable"

renjility wrote...

Meredith had barely any screentime during those 20 hours, so saying that she's a well-written antagonist for the majority of the game isn't all that fair. You first get to talk to her at the end of act 2, after which more than two-thirds of the game have already passed. She's little more than a strict Knight-Commander during that time, no more interesting than Greagoir in DAO. She would have served well enough as one of two sides at the end of Act 3, true, but that wasn't enough, so what character she had wa swepped away for a mind-controlled lyrium idol goon. 

You also seem to have missed a full Templar supporter story arch. If you side with Meredith at the start of Act 3 you get a lot more content and she shows her side a lot better. Plus Cullen tries to tell you her side on Act 2, so does Samson on Act 3. She doesn't exist in a vacuum, while TIM's redeeming qualities are completely skipped on ME3. Jacob and Miranda defend TIM / Cerberus on ME2 but on ME3 he is back to Disney Villain.. 2 minutes in the end excluded.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 07:13 .

[Renmiri1]

Wulfram wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

????

How was the concept the same ?

On DAO you are fighting on hte same side as "good" mages and templars, against a cadre of demons and possessed blood mages. On DAO Act 3 you pick a side - good templars or good mages. And you kill / fight people who could be your allies.

I'm not seeing it. Care to explain ?

Mages are pissed off at being oppressed, rebel, summon demons, go crazy.  Annullment called.

Only substantial difference is that Greagoir and Irving don't arbitrarily go crazy

And a certain church bombing ? :innocent:

And no Fade demon holding mages / templars hostage ? 

And no Winne ? No Owen ? 

No Bethany / Emille in risk of being put to death when you side with the other side ? 

No "other side" ? DAO had one side only. You could not side against Gregoir. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 07:16 .

[Renmiri1]

Redbelle wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
Disney villains as masterpiece.. What will BSN come up with next ??? 

Did you ever not know which Disney character was the bad guy?

Not sure if you are mocking or agreeing with me but that is a very good point.

Did anyone playing Mass Effect EVER sided with Saren on ME1 ? Ever wanted to ?
What about TIM on ME3 ? Do you see anyone in doubt TIM and Cerberus are mean eeeevil sob's ? Do you see anyone siding with TIM / Cerberus on ME3 ? Is not even possible in game.

In DA2 you can side with the Arishok in pretty much everything until the invasion and even after, you can return the book and give Isabela to him. And you can side with Meredith in Act 3 up until the very end when she does turn into a Disney Villain, in the last 2 minutes. 

[Wulfram]

edit:

This isn't really going anywhere - pretty much anything can be cited as a significant change and pretty much anything can be argued as not really significant.

I do not believe Act 3 added anything to our understanding of the whole Mage/Templar thing, to me it just seemed to reshuffle existing components to a less believable form.  But if you disagree I don't see how I can convince you.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Renmiri1 wrote...
And a certain church bombing ? :innocent:

One of the better moments, not enough to really shake everything up

And no Fade demon holding mages / templars hostage ? 

And no Winne ? No Owen ? 

Not including these makes DA2 really bold and innovative!

No Bethany / Emille in risk of being put to death when you side with the other side ? 

There's various mages in the tower, who may or may not be as important to the people who are in the tower in the game.  Doesn't change the

No "other side" ? DAO had one side only. You could not side against Gregoir. 

Gregoir wasn't crazy, no. I've said this before.  Of course, you could side with Cullen as your Crazy Templar and go complete the Annullment.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 avril 2013 - 07:35 .

[legbamel]

I don't recall Meredith telling Hawke that. Is it particular to a particular dialogue path? I did read about it later and thought it would have been nice to know that from the beginning. Frankly, by that point in the game I found her so unsympathetic that I was more interested in her Tranquil assistant. The lyrium idol just turned her from a zealot into a cartoon.

[Renmiri1]

I just don't see Act 3 on DA2 being remotely the same as DAO's Circle tower. Only in the most basic sense, yeah we battle blood mages, kill some demons and see some templars. But that can be said of the entire DA2 game.

[Melca36]

legbamel wrote...

I don't recall Meredith telling Hawke that. Is it particular to a particular dialogue path? I did read about it later and thought it would have been nice to know that from the beginning. Frankly, by that point in the game I found her so unsympathetic that I was more interested in her Tranquil assistant. The lyrium idol just turned her from a zealot into a cartoon.

Lets not forget the light Saber sword and her flying around and making all those statues come to life.


The BEST ACT in Dragon Age 2 was ACT 2. It flowed well, the qunari stuff was fascinating and it just made sense.

Act 3 was an inconsistent mess and far too short. The DLCs helped it but that ending was bad and beneath the standards of what I expect from a Bioware game.

[Renmiri1]

legbamel wrote...

I don't recall Meredith telling Hawke that. Is it particular to a particular dialogue path? I did read about it later and thought it would have been nice to know that from the beginning. Frankly, by that point in the game I found her so unsympathetic that I was more interested in her Tranquil assistant. The lyrium idol just turned her from a zealot into a cartoon.

3:46 on the video below. The entire 6 minutes of the video show her side well and expand on the reasons to support her.

http://www.youtube.c...uHqb8ZqI#t=232s

And agreed, her last liryum addled rants after her eyes started glowing were very cartoony. But that was a drop in an ocean.

Melca36 wrote...

Lets not forget the light Saber sword and her flying around and making all those statues come to life. 


The BEST ACT in Dragon Age 2 was ACT 2. It flowed well, the qunari stuff was fascinating and it just made sense.

Act 3 was an inconsistent mess and far too short. The DLCs helped it but that ending was bad and beneath the standards of what I expect from a Bioware game. 

I don't disgree, Act 3 was far below the other two acts. But give me a rushed Act 3 any day instead of a ME3 TIM or a Saren 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 avril 2013 - 07:46 .

[Dutchess]

Renmiri1 wrote...

And a certain church bombing ? :innocent:

And no Fade demon holding mages / templars hostage ? 

And no Winne ? No Owen ? 

No Bethany / Emille in risk of being put to death when you side with the other side ? 

No "other side" ? DAO had one side only. You could not side against Gregoir. 

You're just nitpicking and coming up with irrelevant details that differ between the two games. No, there's no Owen in Kirkwall's Circle, but there are tranquill, including Meredith's "assistent". The point is that both stories evolve around mages vs. templars, in which the argument against mages is that they are potentially dangerous due to the possibility of them turning to blood magic or getting possessed. Then it doesn't matter that there was no exploding Chantry in DAO, and not one evil blood mage who wanted to mind control the rest of the Circle. Both served to escalate the issue and force a decision.