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[AtreiyaN7]

spiritage wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'd like to see it, but I don't think there's a way in. It took a number of Tevinter magisters just to break in...and they got booted out pretty quickly (if the story is true). I doubt there's anyone with comparable knowledge floating around. WHOA - Sylar and Claire - I'm traumatized (sorry, just saw a Heroes promo).

The codex says demons can possibly get in. Maybe find a PRIDE demon, as I haven't fought any.. and I'd like to battle some ENVY and GREED demons.

Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

[Zemore]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

if your mentioning avernus he says that hes drawn to the black city that there is somthing there mabye the root of the darkspawn possibly even the maker himself corrupted and tainted like an old god mabye even battling against his own taint like a huge grey warden in your head

i think a very important thing your own char can say against the chantrys account of the darkspawn would be " the chantry says alot of things"  its an obvious dig at religeon who knows whats true either way ... Avernus knows the taint stems from that city the matter is what lies in store at its heart i hope a tainted maker ... it would be great to kill him.

it could be the maker is just a super powerful dragon that exists in dreams like many stories gods are beings of faith the more that belive the stronger they get if the maker is indeed like a spectral archedemon mabye thats what awakening is about ... when the makers chant reaches all four corners the true power of the Darkspawn begins to emerge the chantry spreading the taint rather than salvation ... id love that twist .... and im catholic O_o

Modifié par Zemore, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:01 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Zemore wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

if your mentioning avernus he says that hes drawn to the black city that there is somthing there mabye the root of the darkspawn possibly even the maker himself corrupted and tainted like an old god mabye even battling against his own taint like a huge grey warden in your head

i think a very important thing your own char can say against the chantrys account of the darkspawn would be " the chantry says alot of things"  its an obvious dig at religeon who knows whats true either way ... Avernus knows the taint stems from that city the matter is what lies in store at its heart i hope a tainted maker ... it would be great to kill him.

it could be the maker is just a super powerful dragon that exists in dreams like many stories gods are beings of faith the more that belive the stronger they get if the maker is indeed like a spectral archedemon mabye thats what awakening is about ... when the makers chant reaches all four corners the true power of the Darkspawn begins to emerge the chantry spreading the taint rather than salvation ... id love that twist .... and im catholic O_o

That's entirely possible, and religion is definitely ambiguous in DA:O. It comes down to the Maker maybe being real...or maybe not being real - no definitive proof of lack thereof either way. Andraste's ashes? Well, who knows, could be the power of belief...or there's something to it (and the Gauntlet, etc.). There is clearly evidence that the Chantry edits out what they don't like/don't wish to acknowledge. After all, if you go to Denerim and talk to Sister Perpetua & co. it is specifically mentioned that all verses/canticles about Shartan have basically been excised. Still, I think we were discussing how to get into the Black City & I'm just not quite convinced that it's doable (or particularly advisable). It would, of course, be highly interesting if one could legitimately find a way in and sort out fact from fiction - heh.

[Zemore]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


That's entirely possible, and religion is definitely ambiguous in DA:O. It comes down to the Maker maybe being real...or maybe not being real - no definitive proof of lack thereof either way. Andraste's ashes? Well, who knows, could be the power of belief...or there's something to it (and the Gauntlet, etc.). There is clearly evidence that the Chantry edits out what they don't like/don't wish to acknowledge. After all, if you go to Denerim and talk to Sister Perpetua & co. it is specifically mentioned that all verses/canticles about Shartan have basically been excised. Still, I think we were discussing how to get into the Black City & I'm just not quite convinced that it's doable (or particularly advisable). It would, of course, be highly interesting if one could legitimately find a way in and sort out fact from fiction - heh.

well heres the point the Fade is a dream in dreams if lucid theres nothing you cant do If you belive you can Turning in to a mouse for example and the Mages got in once it can be done again.

another point would be its called a City question really is who is it a city for? demons? spirits? Dreamers?

[Wompoo]

Sounds more like the Black City equals Fade prison, enter power hungry mages... wards that bind whatever is there, are weakened. Now it starts the assault to break free. There is no maker, the old gods are ardent believers of the big bang theory and obviously unsafe practices = enter man.

Modifié par Wompoo, 20 janvier 2010 - 01:59 .

[spiritage]

Confusing talk, just use blood magic :s

[hitchhikerSVK974]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

spiritage wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'd like to see it, but I don't think there's a way in. It took a number of Tevinter magisters just to break in...and they got booted out pretty quickly (if the story is true). I doubt there's anyone with comparable knowledge floating around. WHOA - Sylar and Claire - I'm traumatized (sorry, just saw a Heroes promo).

The codex says demons can possibly get in. Maybe find a PRIDE demon, as I haven't fought any.. and I'd like to battle some ENVY and GREED demons.

Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

But there are not only demons in fade... Like that spirit which keeps Wynne alive. And they can have power to enter the city. And there is that thing with seven Old Gods, what is going to happen when the last of them will be slain? How are darkspawn and Black City connected?

[Derengard]

I don't remember if it was really noticeable in the background, but I just liked the short description. It's a really atmospheric piece of lore. Simply the uncanniness tha radiates from this unknown place, the center of all corruption, always as a dark blob on the horizon.

[wizardryforever]

hitchhikerSVK974 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

spiritage wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'd like to see it, but I don't think there's a way in. It took a number of Tevinter magisters just to break in...and they got booted out pretty quickly (if the story is true). I doubt there's anyone with comparable knowledge floating around. WHOA - Sylar and Claire - I'm traumatized (sorry, just saw a Heroes promo).

The codex says demons can possibly get in. Maybe find a PRIDE demon, as I haven't fought any.. and I'd like to battle some ENVY and GREED demons.

Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

But there are not only demons in fade... Like that spirit which keeps Wynne alive. And they can have power to enter the city. And there is that thing with seven Old Gods, what is going to happen when the last of them will be slain? How are darkspawn and Black City connected?

They are related because it was the Tevinter mages breaking into the Golden City that caused the Maker to curse them, and it was their own corruption that blackened the Golden City.  It is possible that entering the Black City with a pure, virtuous person, like the second coming of Andraste, you could make it Golden again, and the darkspawn would die out.

Yes demons and spirits could theoretically enter the Black City, the entry says they avoid it for some unknown reason.  It is that reason that interests me.

[TheRealIncarnal]

I often question how "factual" what we know about the Black City really is. I mean, if what the Chantry says is true then how could they know it? That would be like hearing a story about what happened on the Hindenburg, you have to question who is in a position to even tell it.



Is it even a city? Maybe it's just a black smear on the horizon?



It's hard to know what there is to even know about it. So, I think it would be a great topic to explore for the next game.

[Maximus741000]

wizardryforever wrote...

Read the codex entry on the Old Gods, it punches a hole right through this theory.  However, it was written by an author in-game, so it may not be entirely factual.  I rather think that the Maker is intended to be a somewhat apathetic god who built the world but is only mildly interested in it now.  Like building a model, once you're done with it all it does is collect dust.  That sort of thing.  According to in-game lore, the Maker first turned away from the world when the Tevinter, led astray by the Old Gods (who probably weren't actually gods at all) invaded the Golden City.  He was brought back by Andraste's faith, but left again after she was betrayed to the Imperium and burned alive.  Of course, I'm not going to argue that the Chantry's version is entirely factual, that would just be naive.

The term "archdemon" is a little misleading in this game, since the archdemon is not a demon at all, but an Old God that was corrupted by darkspawn.  A better term might be "archdarkspawn" but that doesn't really resonate the same.  Demons and darkspawn are completely unrelated if I remember correctly.  Technically, since there have been four Blights before the game starts, plus the one in the game, there should be only two more after this one.  Since there were seven Old Gods, and five have been accounted for, that is.

Just to clarify, I do know what the archdemon IS so far as we are lead to beleive, and all that's to do with the Maker and his poor relationship with Thedas, how could one not hear about it when people in the game talk about it all the time? I do also know that demons and darkspawn are unrelated. And that the number of Blights is predicated on how many theoretical Old Gods there are left. But admittedly, there were plenty of holes in my theory, we'll just have to learn more later.

[hitchhikerSVK974]

wizardryforever wrote...


They are related because it was the Tevinter mages breaking into the Golden City that caused the Maker to curse them, and it was their own corruption that blackened the Golden City.  It is possible that entering the Black City with a pure, virtuous person, like the second coming of Andraste, you could make it Golden again, and the darkspawn would die out.

Yes demons and spirits could theoretically enter the Black City, the entry says they avoid it for some unknown reason.  It is that reason that interests me.

Me too. Maybe it is the taint... if Black City is the source of taint that can curse old Gods, it is obvious why demons and spirits avoid entering city. I think Blights are some sort of punishment (like flood in the Bible) that Maker has casted on Thedas. So it seems possible, that when last Blight will be defeated, he will return to Black City. And smile on his creations once again, or whatever satisfied creator use to do in that kind od situation. But one more thing... Why he'd left first time? Because it is written in codex that he had left before they arrived... their whole idea was to sit on empty throne in Golden City and rule. And why he imprisoned the Old Gods?

[Sephlock]

^ "like flood in the Halos"



Fixed.

[AtreiyaN7]

Zemore wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


That's entirely possible, and religion is definitely ambiguous in DA:O. It comes down to the Maker maybe being real...or maybe not being real - no definitive proof of lack thereof either way. Andraste's ashes? Well, who knows, could be the power of belief...or there's something to it (and the Gauntlet, etc.). There is clearly evidence that the Chantry edits out what they don't like/don't wish to acknowledge. After all, if you go to Denerim and talk to Sister Perpetua & co. it is specifically mentioned that all verses/canticles about Shartan have basically been excised. Still, I think we were discussing how to get into the Black City & I'm just not quite convinced that it's doable (or particularly advisable). It would, of course, be highly interesting if one could legitimately find a way in and sort out fact from fiction - heh.

well heres the point the Fade is a dream in dreams if lucid theres nothing you cant do If you belive you can Turning in to a mouse for example and the Mages got in once it can be done again.

another point would be its called a City question really is who is it a city for? demons? spirits? Dreamers?

It's pretty much clearly stated that no matter how much any mortal tries/wishes it, they simply cannot enter the Black City. You can't "wish" yourself there - it always remains at a fixed distance away from the person that tries to approach if I recall correctly from the Codex entry. Addressing the issue of good spirits I saw in another post down there...yes, there are good spirits in the Fade, however it is clearly stated that they are basically not interested in interacting with this world in any way. They do not willingly cross the Veil and have no desire to possess mortals.

Could you run into such a spirit in the Fade? That's possible but unlikely, unless something special happens. Again, good spirits are basically uninterested in contact with mortals. Wynne was a special case, with one a Spirit of Hope (or whatever it is) taking a specific interest in her for reasons all its own. As for defeating all seven of the corrupted Old Gods? Who knows - I can't begin to guess at what might happen if what the Chantry says is actually true. Also, since one of those Old Gods hasn't been destroyed but has, in fact, been reborn through Morrigan's dark ritual, maybe that throws a kink into things. Anyhow, this is all pure speculation. Who can say what will happen? Maybe you can get a dev to comment on the possibility that we'd ever get into the Black City.

Also, you can speak to the Tevinter statue in that storage room during the mage origin. Who knows if her/its predictions are true? Heh, as Jowan pointed out he could wave his arms around and say something that sounded like a prophecy (or something to that effect).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[Zemore]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


That's entirely possible, and religion is definitely ambiguous in DA:O. It comes down to the Maker maybe being real...or maybe not being real - no definitive proof of lack thereof either way. Andraste's ashes? Well, who knows, could be the power of belief...or there's something to it (and the Gauntlet, etc.). There is clearly evidence that the Chantry edits out what they don't like/don't wish to acknowledge. After all, if you go to Denerim and talk to Sister Perpetua & co. it is specifically mentioned that all verses/canticles about Shartan have basically been excised. Still, I think we were discussing how to get into the Black City & I'm just not quite convinced that it's doable (or particularly advisable). It would, of course, be highly interesting if one could legitimately find a way in and sort out fact from fiction - heh.

well heres the point the Fade is a dream in dreams if lucid theres nothing you cant do If you belive you can Turning in to a mouse for example and the Mages got in once it can be done again.

another point would be its called a City question really is who is it a city for? demons? spirits? Dreamers?

It's pretty much clearly stated that no matter how much any mortal tries/wishes it, they simply cannot enter the Black City. You can't "wish" yourself there - it always remains at a fixed distance away from the person that tries to approach if I recall correctly from the Codex entry. Addressing the issue of good spirits I saw in another post down there...yes, there are good spirits in the Fade, however it is clearly stated that they are basically not interested in interacting with this world in any way. They do not willingly cross the Veil and have no desire to possess mortals.

Could you run into such a spirit in the Fade? That's possible but unlikely, unless something special happens. Again, good spirits are basically uninterested in contact with mortals. Wynne was a special case, with one a Spirit of Hope (or whatever it is) taking a specific interest in her for reasons all its own. As for defeating all seven of the corrupted Old Gods? Who knows - I can't begin to guess at what might happen if what the Chantry says is actually true. Also, since one of those Old Gods hasn't been destroyed but has, in fact, been reborn through Morrigan's dark ritual, maybe that throws a kink into things. Anyhow, this is all pure speculation. Who can say what will happen? Maybe you can get a dev to comment on the possibility that we'd ever get into the Black City.

Also, you can speak to the Tevinter statue in that storage room during the mage origin. Who knows if her/its predictions are true? Heh, as Jowan pointed out he could wave his arms around and say something that sounded like a prophecy (or something to that effect).

Thats the point tho i looked around in the fade theres tonnes of black blobs on the horizon that could be the black city not to mention theres buildings randomly scattered around the fade itself ...if they implie anything Black city go boom and shatter in to a million peices.

but really who knows the fact is as put By mouse a creature that understands the fade all too wel l"The real dangers of the Fade are preconceptions... careless trust... pride." its a wise lesson to learn especially for dragon age trust in the chantry isnt wise they are humans and the Victors write history =/ Oh and the spirits of the fade you meet one yourself in the mage origin its just the specific type of spirit that helps wynne doesnt show itself often from what she says anyway so id assumethe others can be found they just dont really give a crap.

as for the Codex it says that the black city is always visible on the Horizon and equal distance to all points but in a dream in a world that sheer Will is true power  distance is irrelevant the fact is the Mages got in to the city before and thier secrets to doing it again were lost when they became darkspawn so its never declared as impossible its just not explained how they got there and its just a matter of time the question really is what IS there what lies in that city that Avernus could hear somthing speaking out to him.

[wizardryforever]

Zemore wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


That's entirely possible, and religion is definitely ambiguous in DA:O. It comes down to the Maker maybe being real...or maybe not being real - no definitive proof of lack thereof either way. Andraste's ashes? Well, who knows, could be the power of belief...or there's something to it (and the Gauntlet, etc.). There is clearly evidence that the Chantry edits out what they don't like/don't wish to acknowledge. After all, if you go to Denerim and talk to Sister Perpetua & co. it is specifically mentioned that all verses/canticles about Shartan have basically been excised. Still, I think we were discussing how to get into the Black City & I'm just not quite convinced that it's doable (or particularly advisable). It would, of course, be highly interesting if one could legitimately find a way in and sort out fact from fiction - heh.

well heres the point the Fade is a dream in dreams if lucid theres nothing you cant do If you belive you can Turning in to a mouse for example and the Mages got in once it can be done again.

another point would be its called a City question really is who is it a city for? demons? spirits? Dreamers?

It's pretty much clearly stated that no matter how much any mortal tries/wishes it, they simply cannot enter the Black City. You can't "wish" yourself there - it always remains at a fixed distance away from the person that tries to approach if I recall correctly from the Codex entry. Addressing the issue of good spirits I saw in another post down there...yes, there are good spirits in the Fade, however it is clearly stated that they are basically not interested in interacting with this world in any way. They do not willingly cross the Veil and have no desire to possess mortals.

Could you run into such a spirit in the Fade? That's possible but unlikely, unless something special happens. Again, good spirits are basically uninterested in contact with mortals. Wynne was a special case, with one a Spirit of Hope (or whatever it is) taking a specific interest in her for reasons all its own. As for defeating all seven of the corrupted Old Gods? Who knows - I can't begin to guess at what might happen if what the Chantry says is actually true. Also, since one of those Old Gods hasn't been destroyed but has, in fact, been reborn through Morrigan's dark ritual, maybe that throws a kink into things. Anyhow, this is all pure speculation. Who can say what will happen? Maybe you can get a dev to comment on the possibility that we'd ever get into the Black City.

Also, you can speak to the Tevinter statue in that storage room during the mage origin. Who knows if her/its predictions are true? Heh, as Jowan pointed out he could wave his arms around and say something that sounded like a prophecy (or something to that effect).

Thats the point tho i looked around in the fade theres tonnes of black blobs on the horizon that could be the black city not to mention theres buildings randomly scattered around the fade itself ...if they implie anything Black city go boom and shatter in to a million peices.

but really who knows the fact is as put By mouse a creature that understands the fade all too wel l"The real dangers of the Fade are preconceptions... careless trust... pride." its a wise lesson to learn especially for dragon age trust in the chantry isnt wise they are humans and the Victors write history =/ Oh and the spirits of the fade you meet one yourself in the mage origin its just the specific type of spirit that helps wynne doesnt show itself often from what she says anyway so id assumethe others can be found they just dont really give a crap.

as for the Codex it says that the black city is always visible on the Horizon and equal distance to all points but in a dream in a world that sheer Will is true power  distance is irrelevant the fact is the Mages got in to the city before and thier secrets to doing it again were lost when they became darkspawn so its never declared as impossible its just not explained how they got there and its just a matter of time the question really is what IS there what lies in that city that Avernus could hear somthing speaking out to him.

Oh but it is explained how they got there, just not in great detail.  It says, in passing, in the Cardinal Rules of Magic entry.  Also, unlike most of the other codex entries, this one doesn't tell it from the Chantry's point of view.  According to the entry, the only time anyone ever violated the rule against transporting one's body by magic was the Tevinter mages, and that took all the lyrium in the Imperium (which was most of Thedas at the time) as well as the blood of thousands of slaves.  So I really doubt that merely wishing to be there would work, no matter how much you wished it.  Although I don't know if it could be reached in the dream state that you're in most of the time in the Fade, and if so, would it accomplish anything?  I don't think the Fade is permanent in any sense except the Black City, so how would you know how to get in?  Formidable obstacles to prevent another usurpation of heaven.

[Zemore]

wizardryforever wrote...


Oh but it is explained how they got there, just not in great detail.  It says, in passing, in the Cardinal Rules of Magic entry.  Also, unlike most of the other codex entries, this one doesn't tell it from the Chantry's point of view.  According to the entry, the only time anyone ever violated the rule against transporting one's body by magic was the Tevinter mages, and that took all the lyrium in the Imperium (which was most of Thedas at the time) as well as the blood of thousands of slaves.  So I really doubt that merely wishing to be there would work, no matter how much you wished it.  Although I don't know if it could be reached in the dream state that you're in most of the time in the Fade, and if so, would it accomplish anything?  I don't think the Fade is permanent in any sense except the Black City, so how would you know how to get in?  Formidable obstacles to prevent another usurpation of heaven.

you can give a man the ingredients it doesnt mean he knows how to bake a cake the how is still unclear theres no specific ritual and the inconsistencies in a report thousands of years old isnt exactly trustworthy.

People dream in the fade and the mages are lucid there now its pretty simple reasoning If the blackcity exists in dreams then you should be able to go there in dreams the problem is the how and who knows mabye its safer to go in a dream state rather than the way the Imperium went  in mabye thats why the taint was born the problem mages have in the fade is letting go of what they know and understand  and acheiving things not physically possible in the real world thats why Niall is so suprised you can become a mouse when you tell him everyone else has the problem of being unaware.

as for the once you get there ... whos to say theres anything but deleict buildings whos to say theres any wards it could be that heaven itself has become the true taint of the darkspawn we dont have enough information about the place before hand other than it was the seat of the maker and is claimed to be heaven. I think the point is they will eventually have to give more info even visions of the city itself if the DA series continues im looking forward to it very much.

Modifié par Zemore, 21 janvier 2010 - 12:55 .

[SwordsmanofShadow]

I think the Black City can only be accessed in by physical means. Why would the Imperium waste so much lyrium and blood when they could just go in dreams? I think the fact that it's the only constant in the Fade is telling: it might not be something originally native to the Fade. That's why the mages had to go there physically.



As for what the Black City is... I think the fact that even the most powerful of demons avoid the place, shows that the city might have ALWAYS been tainted. We learn from Avernus that the Taint is alien to demons and spirits of the Fade. Perhaps it was always tainted, some ancient curse that even the Old Gods and the Maker must give way to.



That is an interesting idea- that the Maker didn't turn his back on humanity, but had to flee from the Taint. Perhaps the Maker exists, but not as the Chantry knows him: a god- like the Old Gods- but not omnipotent. Perhaps he too is susceptible to the taint like they are.



Continuing that line of thought, perhaps when Dumat contacted the Tevinter mages, perhaps it's goal all along was to get them into the city, for whatever purpose. But the plan backfired, and now he and his fellow Gods are being tainted. It would be interesting if Dumat and his fellows gods were truly immortal; actual gods, but the taint actually corrupted them in other ways; making them mortal.



If all this is true, the question becomes not so much 'what is the Black City', but what is it's connection to the Taint, and where did both come from?

[Zemore]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...

I think the Black City can only be accessed in by physical means. Why would the Imperium waste so much lyrium and blood when they could just go in dreams? I think the fact that it's the only constant in the Fade is telling: it might not be something originally native to the Fade. That's why the mages had to go there physically.

As for what the Black City is... I think the fact that even the most powerful of demons avoid the place, shows that the city might have ALWAYS been tainted. We learn from Avernus that the Taint is alien to demons and spirits of the Fade. Perhaps it was always tainted, some ancient curse that even the Old Gods and the Maker must give way to.

That is an interesting idea- that the Maker didn't turn his back on humanity, but had to flee from the Taint. Perhaps the Maker exists, but not as the Chantry knows him: a god- like the Old Gods- but not omnipotent. Perhaps he too is susceptible to the taint like they are.

Continuing that line of thought, perhaps when Dumat contacted the Tevinter mages, perhaps it's goal all along was to get them into the city, for whatever purpose. But the plan backfired, and now he and his fellow Gods are being tainted. It would be interesting if Dumat and his fellows gods were truly immortal; actual gods, but the taint actually corrupted them in other ways; making them mortal.

If all this is true, the question becomes not so much 'what is the Black City', but what is it's connection to the Taint, and where did both come from?

well my thoughts on this would be somthing i stated earlier in the Fade
Will is true power the ablity to distort the reality of the fade to
change your very shape and its not somthing most people could do ...
then take in to consideration the maker Lives in the fade whos to say
if you appear before him he cant do anything he wants to you because he
is a God and you are in a place that reality just doesnt exist.
Now if a real thing enters the fade in its entirety mabye its immune tto the makers powers

another
thought that just entered my head ... whos to say the maker is even IN
the fade mabye hes dreaming afterall the old gods are said to be
sleeping under the ground mabye hes similar mabye he is an old god that just beat the crap out of the other ones.
as for the old gods who knows as far as im aware orginally they were just super old and very cunning dragons and dragons can live for a long time but are in no way invincible if anything id say the taint made them much more immortal in the sense thier bodies can die but thier souls move from body to body.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

This thread has truly become engrossing. The ideas and possibilities.



What caused the taint, and just what is the black city? I'm guessing we'll have to wait until DA 3.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

This raises even more speculation: what if the Maker contacted Andraste for a different reason? Certainly the Chant may have been important to him, but what if stopping Tevinter from attempting to try to enter the Black City a second time had been the real reason for suddenly revealing himself. That and her leading an expedition into the Deep Roads to kill the other Old Gods. He choose someone he knew ( or hoped) could stop the Magisters once and for all. Of course she died, and the Darkspawn continued to conquer the DR making any assault impossible, while the Old Gods call them. His quest was only partially completed.



More speculation: we know that the Darkspawn can sense each other through the Taint, and with it, hear the call of the Old Gods. Now the old gods are supposed to be asleep and untainted, only becoming tainted when the Darkspawn find them. But if that's true, how can all who are connected to the Taint can sense the 'call' of the Old Gods who are supposedly untainted? Perhaps the Old Gods where always tainted... and sent the Magisters to their doom in the City just so the Taint could spread to the rest of humanity.



Perhaps that is the true battle of the Dragon Age setting: the Maker versus the Old Gods for what the face of the mortal realm looks like, pure, or tainted. But what came first: the Old Gods, or the Taint? Does the Taint serve them, or do they serve the Taint? Questions, questions...

[hitchhikerSVK974]

Zemore wrote...

another
thought that just entered my head ... whos to say the maker is even IN
the fade mabye hes dreaming afterall the old gods are said to be
sleeping under the ground mabye hes similar mabye he is an old god that just beat the crap out of the other ones.
as
for the old gods who knows as far as im aware orginally they were just
super old and very cunning dragons and dragons can live for a long time
but are in no way invincible if anything id say the taint made them much more immortal in the sense thier bodies can die but thier souls move from body to body.

I don't think so. Old Gods weren't dragons from the beginnig... They somehow conntacted Tevinter Mages and these mages gave them form in Thedas(they were fade spirits/demons) and made them dragons(according to Chantry, or it was wiki, i can't remember where I'd red it). So soul of any of the old gods is immortal. Like every soul. But being immortal doesn't mean you can't die/be destroyed. Like elves, they were immortal, but when you cut someones head off... And like the bodies of these elfs were immortal, bodies of old Gods are immortal, too. . You know, their bodies doesn't get older and they can't die because of the age. I just curious how the Tevinter managed do create these bodies, I think another thousands of slaves died...

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...

This raises even more speculation: what if the Maker contacted Andraste for a different reason? Certainly the Chant may have been important to him, but what if stopping Tevinter from attempting to try to enter the Black City a second time had been the real reason for suddenly revealing himself. That and her leading an expedition into the Deep Roads to kill the other Old Gods. He choose someone he knew ( or hoped) could stop the Magisters once and for all. Of course she died, and the Darkspawn continued to conquer the DR making any assault impossible, while the Old Gods call them. His quest was only partially completed.

More speculation: we know that the Darkspawn can sense each other through the Taint, and with it, hear the call of the Old Gods. Now the old gods are supposed to be asleep and untainted, only becoming tainted when the Darkspawn find them. But if that's true, how can all who are connected to the Taint can sense the 'call' of the Old Gods who are supposedly untainted? Perhaps the Old Gods where always tainted... and sent the Magisters to their doom in the City just so the Taint could spread to the rest of humanity.

Perhaps that is the true battle of the Dragon Age setting: the Maker versus the Old Gods for what the face of the mortal realm looks like, pure, or tainted. But what came first: the Old Gods, or the Taint? Does the Taint serve them, or do they serve the Taint? Questions, questions...

My question is why Maker didn't killed Old Gods himself? I mean, he had the power to imprison them... Maybe he don't want to kill any of his creations. Maybe killing them one by one is punishmet for them, as well as for mortals. And we are just doing dirty work for him. You know, but then there was Andraste and He was ready to forgive mortals, but they failed again. Like she made him think that that punishment was too cruel, for mortals... Maybe taint is something to make Old Gods more savage, unable to win (because if they were able to think they strategy over, they could wait untill darkspawn will free them all and then conquer world togehter, which should make it much easier). If there is any truth in this thought, first came Old Gods, then the Taint. So they serve the taint and it is against them... But maybe I'm too much in Chantry lore( in fact it is the only lore about these things in the game). It is possible that Maker is just too busy making love with Andraste.

Modifié par hitchhikerSVK974, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:31 .

[Series5Ranger]

Darkened Dragon wrote...

I have a suspicion that the way to the black city is those weird twisted .. to me they look like tent things in the fade. Every mage character I ever fired up always gets a black city codex when I click on it during the Harrowing.

You can get the Black City Codex on every play through, When you are trapped in the Fade by the Sloth Demon.

[Valmy]

spiritage wrote...

it says that they avoid it, but not blocked off.

No it says you can never get to it...it always appears in the distance but you cannot get there.

At least outside of whatever means the Tevinter mages used but that required the blood of thousands of innocent people and several metric tons of lyrium IIRC.

[Series5Ranger]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

spiritage wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'd like to see it, but I don't think there's a way in. It took a number of Tevinter magisters just to break in...and they got booted out pretty quickly (if the story is true). I doubt there's anyone with comparable knowledge floating around. WHOA - Sylar and Claire - I'm traumatized (sorry, just saw a Heroes promo).

The codex says demons can possibly get in. Maybe find a PRIDE demon, as I haven't fought any.. and I'd like to battle some ENVY and GREED demons.

Ah, well I think we're discussing the possibility of a HUMAN entering the Black City and not a demon. The demons might be powerful and might able to enter the city, but how they heck would you - a human/elf/dwarf - get a demon to, err, get you into the city OR give you its knowledge about how to enter the Black City? Demons tend to want to inhabit living creatures, and  I'm not really willing to trade in someone else's soul/body for the privilege of a peek inside the Black City myself, so uh, I really wouldn't go that route.

Heh, did you see what happened with Avernus? Summoning demons or dealing with them generally does not work out too well (and Avernus was a blood mage who had researched the subject for a while based on Warden's Keep). Besides, since the magisters were human and DID get booted out as I said, I'm not sure if you'd even be able to stay in there long enough to get a look if you worked out some crazy demonic deal. Plus, there is the added danger of getting turned into a darkspawn a la the Tevinter magisters (then again, since the place is already corrupted who knows).

Look at it this way: IF we get to enter the Black City at some point. What's our intent in going there? If for RP reasons we want power etc. like the Tevinter Mages, we might get turned into Darkspawn too. or if you actually want to restore it back to the way it was, to bring the maker back, then what happens? It's all about what your intent is.