615 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Why do you refuse to accept that there ARE people in the world who don't give a crap how nasty or dangerous the world is, they still want the right to live within it freely.

I can accept that just fine.
Why can't you accept that there are people who think Thedas is a horrible place to live in and who would gladly trade freedom for security and who think that mages have little to complain about? 

Before you go showing me examples of Kirkwall's squalor-dwelling underclass or bringing up the example of the Orlesian woman who was assaulted by a Chevalier, I must point out to you that we are shown that Thedas is, in large part, much like our own world with its range of abuses that people who aren't born to considerable wealth have to contend with, but I haven't seen anything to suggest a widespread Dickensian/Orwellian level of misery, which is what I'd expect to see the way you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how terrible life is for the general peasants of the Thedosian world in your determination to show that mages have it so awesome that they have no right to complain.

Considering that you can dismiss all example given based on purely persona criterias, just like I can accept them based on my own criteria, this seems like a pointless exercise.
I can point out that most of the houses in Ferelden are rustic and have two bedrooms while the mages in Orlais lived in Drakon's form palace and thus they shouldn't complain, and you can simply say that this is no substitute for freedom. I can say that mages have the privilege of education that most peasants can afford and you can just say again "freedom".

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Sorry, but you DON'T know this.  It could easily mean our information about how the Litany works, etc., is incomplete.

It's not a natural phenomenon people are still studying. It's a man-made contraption created for a specific purpose. The highest echelons of the templars tell us that it only works on one thing exactly because it was created to work on one thing. 

What the bloody hell does that have to do with what I said about Adrian?

You claimed that people like Adrian are created by the "opressive" nature of the Circle and wouldn't exist otherwise which is, obviously, blatantly untrue given the fact there are extremely evil mages who never had to deal with opression or persecution their entire lives.
Clearly, people like Adrian and worse exist who never had to deal with the Circle.

[MisterJB]

If I was a mage, I'd probrably be like either Titus or Finn.
Sometimes, I'd argue mages are naturally superior to non-mages and thus, we should rule and sometimes i'd be like. "Why would I want to go outside? There's mud, darkspawn, insects. I like the tower just fine, thank you very much."

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why do you refuse to accept that there ARE people in the world who don't give a crap how nasty or dangerous the world is, they still want the right to live within it freely.

I can accept that just fine.
Why can't you accept that there are people who think Thedas is a horrible place to live in and who would gladly trade freedom for security and who think that mages have little to complain about?

Because the game lore doesn't support it.  Nowhere do I see peasants in large numbers b*tching about how awesome mages have it compared to them. 

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

We don't know that Rhys was the murderer.  We have Rhys saying he BELIEVES he might be, and a templar reminds him not to fall back on old assumptions.  I also don't think it's a given that Cole was a demon using blood magic.  The whole point of Cole's existence was to throw what we know about demons and the Fade into question.  Again, it's a templar who asserts that the things we see happening with Cole were real and not some delusion. 

A person like Adrian would not have existed if there weren't grossly unjust systems like the Circle around to create them.

If Cole is not a demon using blood magic, what is he?  A spirit using blood magic is also bad. 

Hahahahaha, well, please, I beg you, tell me where the just systems on Thedas are located. 

Do you look to the cities?  Monarchies where the nobility can do as they please, and peasantry is less than dirt.  Elves are treated worse than the peasants.  Nobility only answers to other nobility if their crimes are severe enough against something the nobles actually care for.

Do you look to the Dwarves?  Well, if you don't mind the idea of a Caste system with a huge underclass who have the option of death or thievery.  Oh, and the entire constant infighting of the nobility and the huge threat of darkspawn.

How about we look to the Dalish?  I suppose if you don't mind being a violent band of savages murdering people for being lost in a forest, you don't mind the ridiculous racial purity arguments and propaganda.  Or if you would prefer for there to be at least some balance of power.

Tevinter?  If you're a survival of the fittest, sure.  Just ignore the bodies you climbed on to get up there.  And watch out for other mages who might just murder you in your sleep for lulz.

The Qunari?  Yes, an Islamic Borg like horde of drug using monsters who force everyone to conform or die is certainly the way to go. 

So from my point of view, your "grossly unjust system" of the Circle, where mages are kept safe from the outside world, allowed their own government and fraternities (which can speak out against the Chantry), can leave with the word of the First Enchanter without escort, and free to study and learn at their leisure (which most of Thedas cannot do), is laughable.  Stop pretending there is any justice in Thedas.  Andrastian Mages are just under nobles.

Point me, please, to this magical society of justice in Thedas, I'm begging you.

[Silfren]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Sorry, but you DON'T know this.  It could easily mean our information about how the Litany works, etc., is incomplete.[/quote]
It's not a natural phenomenon people are still studying. It's a man-made contraption created for a specific purpose. The highest echelons of the templars tell us that it only works on one thing exactly because it was created to work on one thing.  [/quote]

This hardly means that those templars know all there is to know about it, and Lambert is not the sort of person who is willing to consider that he doesn't know everything.

[quote]
What the bloody hell does that have to do with what I said about Adrian?
[/quote]
You claimed that people like Adrian are created by the "opressive" nature of the Circle and wouldn't exist otherwise which is, obviously, blatantly untrue given the fact there are extremely evil mages who never had to deal with opression or persecution their entire lives.
Clearly, people like Adrian and worse exist who never had to deal with the Circle.

[/quote]

Ah, I see the problem.  When I mentioned people like Adrian I had in mind ONLY people like Adrian.  She is not the same sort of person as Danarius.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Because the game lore doesn't support it.  Nowhere do I see peasants in large numbers b*tching about how awesome mages have it compared to them. 

1-The games haven't really focused on the human peasantry of Thedas.
2- Most peasants don't really know how the Circle is like. That alienage elf in the Magi Origin was actually quite excited about being in the Circle which was, clearly, an improvement over his old life.

Also, lorewise, most mages have not experienced the realities of both worlds whihc means there is reason to believe theya re just overglorifying the ideal of "freedom".
Take their powers aways and have them spend a year in some outlying, isolated farm or an alienage and let's see how many come back running.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Because the game lore doesn't support it.  Nowhere do I see peasants in large numbers b*tching about how awesome mages have it compared to them. 

1-The games haven't really focused on the human peasantry of Thedas.

That hasn't stopped you from insisting that the human peasanty of Thedas live lives of misery and hopelessness.  You've even made claims that the average peasant is illiterate, despite the little lore we have on the issue strongly suggesting otherwise.  Seems to me you've always insisted on comparing Thedas to the bleakest period of the real world Middle Ages, even though the lore of the game and the Devs themselves have made it clear this is highly fallacious.

Modifié par Silfren, 27 avril 2013 - 12:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

Mostly because when they are shown, they're either being murdered by nobles, mages, bandits, darkspawn or some combination of the above.

[Hazegurl]

You don't even have to take away their power just look at Merrill's reaction to seeing the alienage for the first time. "This is it?"

However, I will say that the reason why most mages would never fully appreciate what they have in the circle is because of lack of freedom they have to live in the outside world. I don't agree with mages being taken from their families for the rest of their lives, the fact that they have no clue what the outside world is like is a problem.

But I would never agree to them governing themselves or using their magic at will and if that is the price that must be paid just so mages can have freedom then they should stay locked up or killed in their little war.

Also, it's pretty obvious that Thedas is a shyt place to live. Just play the City Elf origins playthrough. Can't even get married to someone you don't love in peace. lol!

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 avril 2013 - 12:30 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

You don't even have to take away their power just look at Merrill's reaction to seeing the alienage for the first time. "This is it?"

However, I will say that the reason why most mages would never fully appreciate what they have in the circle is because of lack of freedom they have to live in the outside world. I don't agree with mages being taken from their families for the rest of their lives, the fact that they have no clue what the outside world is like is a problem.

But I would never agree to them governing themselves or using their magic at will and if that is the price that must be paid just so mages can have freedom then they should stay locked up or killed in their little war.

Also, it's pretty obvious that Thedas is a shyt place to live. Just play the City Elf origins playthrough. Can't even get married to someone you don't love in peace. lol!

Funny how the primary arguments about how terrible Thedas in general is tend to focus on the City Elves. 

The alienage elves are ghettoized, but this isn't an argument about how awful Thedas generally is, it's an argument of how the elves have it as bad as the mages and have as much reason to object to their treament as the former do. 

[DPSSOC]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
What the Mages are rebelling against is the idea of the necessity of Chantry dominion over them.[/quote]

They'll have to be under someone's.  Or do you propose that mages answer to no one but themselves?  The greatest imposition of the Chantry's dominion is that the mages have to stay in a particular spot.  They could be a lot harsher.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Some people are willing to do anything to be free. [/quote]

So it's perfectly fine for the mages to do whatever it takes to secure their freedom and safety but non-mages aren't extended the same privledge? [/quote]

Not when it comes to forcing mages into subjugation simply for being mages.[/quote]

And what other options are there? What means do normal people have to ensure their safety from the dangers of magic (malevolent, negligent, or otherwise) and their freedom from magical oppressors? They have none, the Circle is the best option they have short of killing them the moment it's clear what they are.

You'll honestly forgive mages their crimes when they have clear alternatives but not the non-mages when they have none?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's more like if a group of slaves rose up against their slave masters, and fought for their freedom. That's a more apt analogy for mages who refuse to be slaves anymore to the Chantry.

I don't know what it's like in your country, but most people in mine abhor slavery.[/quote]

What form of slavery involves housing, feeding, and educating people without actually demanding they do anything? [/quote]

Historically, slaves received housing, they were fed, and some were even given luxury clothes and educated in certain places, so I'm not certain why you're even bringing up these points as though it proves anything when anyone who has a passing knowledge of history realizes it means absolutely nothing.[/quote]

Yes but these are given in exchange for something, typically service. The Chantry provides these things and, unless there's something in the books I've missed, demands nothing from them in return save to follow a few rules. A mage can do nothing but study magic from the day they enter the Circle til the day they die, they aren't forced to work for the Chantry in any capacity.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Are you inquiring as to why I use the term? We have in-game authors who address that some mages refused to remain servants of the Chantry when they decided to leave the Chantry controlled Circle. We have the historical Aldenon the Wise, the former Grey Warden Anders, and pro-mage Hawke referring to the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery.[/quote]

I'm suggesting the term is inaccurate. The mages are prisoners yes but not slaves. As for people referring to the Circle as slavery that's fine, but I don't see anything to back it up. I'm more of a slave than a mage because I am forced to work, I am forced to pay regular tribute, and I am forced to abide by rules dictated to me from on high. Living a life of quiet study is not an option for me.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Nearly a thousand years of slavery taught them to finally fight for their freedom. [/quote]

As the previous thousand years of slavery taught non-mages to knock the mages down and keep them there, as the next period of enslavement will teach one side to rise up against and hold down the other, and on and on.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the elves could make that exact argument about humans, given everything they have endured since the fall of Arlathan and the Dales. However, Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike.[/quote]

Yes but it was still only mages enslaving people. If you had non-mage slave masters bleeding people out for giggles the fact that both mages and non-mages were oppressed would mean something, but it isn't about who's enslaved it's about who's doing the slaving.

As for the elves yeah they could, and do, take this viewpoint. However my point was that if we keep using crimes of the past committed against us to justify crimes in the future we'll commit nothing is ever going to get any better.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
That hasn't stopped you from insisting that the human peasanty of Thedas live lives of misery and hopelessness.  You've even made claims that the average peasant is illiterate, despite the little lore we have on the issue strongly suggesting otherwise.  Seems to me you've always insisted on comparing Thedas to the bleakest period of the real world Middle Ages, even though the lore of the game and the Devs themselves have made it clear this is highly fallacious.

No need, I can see the homes they live in and realize they are severely lacking when compared to a noble or a Circle. I have presided over a court so I know that due process even in Ferelden means the lord of the land decides what happened; there is no judge of peesr, no lawyers. Asunder specifically tells us that most peasants can only understand dwarven runes and not actual human letters whereas this is basic education for mages. We've seen peasants being attacked by bandits and raped by nobles with little to no punishment administred.
We are not given the perspective of a human commoner and it's not something the games have focused on but we have glimpses of their lives and it's not pleasant.

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
What the Mages are rebelling against is the idea of the necessity of Chantry dominion over them.

They'll have to be under someone's.  Or do you propose that mages answer to no one but themselves?  The greatest imposition of the Chantry's dominion is that the mages have to stay in a particular spot.  They could be a lot harsher.

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Some people are willing to do anything to be free.

So it's perfectly fine for the mages to do whatever it takes to secure their freedom and safety but non-mages aren't extended the same privledge?

Not when it comes to forcing mages into subjugation simply for being mages.

And what other options are there? What means do normal people have to ensure their safety from the dangers of magic (malevolent, negligent, or otherwise) and their freedom from magical oppressors? They have none, the Circle is the best option they have short of killing them the moment it's clear what they are.

You'll honestly forgive mages their crimes when they have clear alternatives but not the non-mages when they have none?

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's more like if a group of slaves rose up against their slave masters, and fought for their freedom. That's a more apt analogy for mages who refuse to be slaves anymore to the Chantry.

I don't know what it's like in your country, but most people in mine abhor slavery.

What form of slavery involves housing, feeding, and educating people without actually demanding they do anything?

Historically, slaves received housing, they were fed, and some were even given luxury clothes and educated in certain places, so I'm not certain why you're even bringing up these points as though it proves anything when anyone who has a passing knowledge of history realizes it means absolutely nothing.

Yes but these are given in exchange for something, typically service. The Chantry provides these things and, unless there's something in the books I've missed, demands nothing from them in return save to follow a few rules. A mage can do nothing but study magic from the day they enter the Circle til the day they die, they aren't forced to work for the Chantry in any capacity.

As if "stay within the walls of the Circle, under pain of death," is just a trivial little no biggie.  From the moment they are discovered they are legally required to forfeit their very families.  They ARE forced to do what the Chantry says, under threat of death, imprisonment at Aeonar, or psychic castration.  That is sufficient qualification to make them slaves.

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...
As if "stay within the walls of the Circle, under pain of death," is just a trivial little no biggie.

Ignoring the hyperbole yeah it is a trivial little no biggie.  In the grand scheme of slave imperatives "Stay here" barely registers.  Even in the context of just Thedas it must be compared to things like, "perform demanding manual labour unto death", "build your own prison", and "die for my amusement".

Silfren wrote...
From the moment they are discovered they are legally required to forfeit their very families.  They ARE forced to do what the Chantry says, under threat of death, imprisonment at Aeonar, or psychic castration.  That is sufficient qualification to make them slaves.

But what does the Chantry make them do?  Other than following their rules what does the Chantry force mages to do?  Absolutely nothing from what I've seen.

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...
As if "stay within the walls of the Circle, under pain of death," is just a trivial little no biggie.

Ignoring the hyperbole yeah it is a trivial little no biggie.  In the grand scheme of slave imperatives "Stay here" barely registers.  Even in the context of just Thedas it must be compared to things like, "perform demanding manual labour unto death", "build your own prison", and "die for my amusement".

Silfren wrote...
From the moment they are discovered they are legally required to forfeit their very families.  They ARE forced to do what the Chantry says, under threat of death, imprisonment at Aeonar, or psychic castration.  That is sufficient qualification to make them slaves.

But what does the Chantry make them do?  Other than following their rules what does the Chantry force mages to do?  Absolutely nothing from what I've seen.

Are you serious?

The Chantry forces mages to abandon their families and live within the confines of a building, such that privacy and independence don't exist.  They have to have permission simply to go outside the walls of their prison, and even IF they get it, they have to be under guard.  Within those walls, they are under CONSTANT surveillance, and natural human interactions--i.e. romantic relationships--are frowned upon to the extent that mages are forced to sneak about just to have a private moment.  If they have children, those children are automatically the property of the Chantry. 

Mages that prefer not to live this way, under constant scrutiny and having their very relationships dicated to them, are regarded as criminals and hunted down.  We're told that they are often branded with the label of maleficar simply for refusing to submit to Chantry law, when they may simply be apostates--and once a mage is branded a maleficar, their life is forfeit.  Even in more moderate Circles we hear stories of Templars all too eager to execute mages: see Aneirin, Wynne's elven apprentice.

Slavery isn't about forced labor.  It's about ownership.  Everything about the Circle system screams slavery.  It isn't as though the mages are given a choice in the matter, after all.  They are required by Chantry law NOT merely to undergo training in their powers, but to remove themselves from mainstream society, again, under pain of death or psychic castration.  They don't have to actually commit any violent crimes to be imprisoned; they simply are as a matter of course.

It MAY be necessary.  But don't make the mistake of assuming that because it's necessary it somehow doesn't qualify as slavery.  Maybe you don't like seeing the label applied because it's an ugly term for an ugly truth, and you'd prefer not to see something you regard as necessary stained with such a harsh label, but that doesn't make the term any less applicable.

Modifié par Silfren, 27 avril 2013 - 03:31 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

You don't even have to take away their power just look at Merrill's reaction to seeing the alienage for the first time. "This is it?"

However, I will say that the reason why most mages would never fully appreciate what they have in the circle is because of lack of freedom they have to live in the outside world. I don't agree with mages being taken from their families for the rest of their lives, the fact that they have no clue what the outside world is like is a problem.

But I would never agree to them governing themselves or using their magic at will and if that is the price that must be paid just so mages can have freedom then they should stay locked up or killed in their little war.

Also, it's pretty obvious that Thedas is a shyt place to live. Just play the City Elf origins playthrough. Can't even get married to someone you don't love in peace. lol!

Funny how the primary arguments about how terrible Thedas in general is tend to focus on the City Elves. 

The alienage elves are ghettoized, but this isn't an argument about how awful Thedas generally is, it's an argument of how the elves have it as bad as the mages and have as much reason to object to their treament as the former do. 

Actually BlueMagitek addressed almost every aspect of how Thedas is generally not a good place to live. His post on the issues is a few posts above mine.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 avril 2013 - 12:15 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't change how inflammatory the example was.[/quote]

That's irrelevant to the argument. [/quote]

Trying to compare Fiona to Kim Jong-un was inflammatory and factually inaccurate.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and a society where mages have no regulations. I don't think many pro-mage players would argue for a world where mages have no regulations; their argument is against the Chantry or the templars enforcing this regulation on mages. Many have proposed alternatives to having mages under Chantry control or under the supervision of the Templar Order in it's current incarnation.

As for what Fiona did, she sought to help her people from a system she strongly disagreed with. She returned to the Circle precisely to help the mages free themselves from the Chantry and the templars, and her method was a democratic vote for independence.

Furthermore, if the templars attempt to murder the mages because they voted for independence, then I don't see how you can say Fiona has innocent blood on her hands.[/quote]
Ok, follow the logic.

A proposes C. However, A knows that if C were to happen, B would start D. Therefore, A proposed D.
Fiona proposed independence. However, she knows that the Chantry can't tolerate and that they will fight if they must, Wynne reminds her of that fact but Fiona's reaction is to dismiss this.
However, she can't dismiss it. It doesn't matter if mage independence will lead to the opression of non-mages; I believe it will; what matters is that the Chantry believes that is what will happen and they will fight to prevent it.
Therefore, Fiona knew she was proposing war when she proposed independence but she did it anyway. She is partially to blame for every life lost in the war and that is an undeniable fact. [/quote]

Despite what the templars may think, they don't have dominion over mages by divine right. The mages deserve to have the same basic freedoms and rights as everyone else, and that's what Fiona is striving toward with her vote. You're condemning Fiona because the vote causes the templars to break free of the Chantry and hunt down the mages, but that responsibility falls on the templars for deciding to kill thousands of men, women, and children who refuse to bend knee to the Templar Order anymore.

The templars are fully to blame for actually trying to kill people; I'm not going to absolve them of their free will simply because the mages took a democratic vote to decide the future of the Circles.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If the templars are attempting to kill the mages because they refuse to allow the templars to have dominion over them, then the mages didn't start the war.[/quote]

They did. You can support them all you want but the mages helped start the war and nothing can ever change that. [/quote]

After the events in Kirkwall, I don't blame the mages for wanting to be free of an oppressive regime that has the legal right to commit genocide against hundreds of innocent people simply for being mages. We know that the other mages in the Circles heard about what happened, and that pro-mage Hawke can be a positive symbol to the mages, showing that the templars can be defied. The Circle mages finally decided that enough was enough, and I'm not going to blame them simply because the templars reacted violently because the mages refused to bend knee to them anymore.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Why can't mages and non-mages live together without killing one another?[/quote]

Who said anything about killing? Sure, mages and non-mages can live together without either commiting genocide.
But magic is an advantage and the mages will use this advantage to elevate themselves above the non-mages. It's simply human nature and it's simply inevitable.
It's impossible for there to be equality so long as magic exists. One side must dominate the other or be dominated itself. [/quote]

We have the kingdom of Rivain and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven to disprove the idea that free mages will dominate over everyone else. Even the Dalish clans have elders who make decisions with the Keepers.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt the Arlathan elves were one of "their own". And it doesn't matter if the Magisters were all mages when the Imperium is enslaving mages and non-mages alike. I have little doubt that there were elven mages who followed Shartan's banner to fight the Imperium for elven freedom.[/quote]

Yes, it does matter. Because while the magisters enslaved the weaker mages, there weren't non-mage magisters enslaving mages or non-mages.
It wasn't a case of Tevinters enslaving others. It was a case of mages enslaving others. [/quote]

Unless your argument is that Tevinter was entirely composed of mages, then it's not a valid argument. Mages and non-mages populated the Imperium, and the humans of the empire enslaved mages and non-mages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Fiona isn't pampered or entitled; she's been through more than most of the characters and companions we have. She lived a life of hardship under an Orlesian lord who repeatedly raped her, and again in the Chantry controlled Circle where she pleaded to leave when she encountered a Grey Warden who could offer her an alternative to the Circle - even if the alternative lead to her death. She returned to the Circle and all it's restrictions when she had her freedom among the Grey Wardens because she wanted to help free her people. Like her not (and it's evident you really don't like her), she advocated independence for her people. [/quote]

Anyone who thinks that freedom is non-negotiable regardless of death and destruction is extremely entitled.
Now, it's true that Fiona has some knowledge of the outside world but that's not true for most mages who are just overglorifying a Thedas that at best is unpleasant and, at worst, Hell of Earth. Despite what mages might believe; and they do believe this; they are not the only ones who suffer and they are, in great part, sheltered from the harsh reality of the outside world where people are actually at risk of starving or being transformed into Broodmothers and don't sleep in Drakon's former palace. [/quote]

You're condemning the mages for preferring freedom to servitude. All that talk, and that's ultimately what it boils down to: the mages aren't grateful for living under the boot of the Templar Order and the Chantry of Andraste. I'm not inclined to agree with that viewpoint, because I think the mages deserve their autonomy from both of these monstrous institutions.

Given Fiona's role in democratically advocating independence from tyranny, I have a deep respect for the character, and her decision to help the plight of her people despite everything she's been through.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Why should I care what Fiona advocates? She is a mage who wants mage to not have to answer to anyone that is not themselves. Big deal, every people ever wanted that, do you want me to give her a prize or something,
The only thing to be said in favor is that she not commiting acts of terrorism and murder like some mages. Yet.
[/quote]

Refusing to accept the slavery imposed by the Chantry isn't terrorism.

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

However, I will say that the reason why most mages would never fully appreciate what they have in the circle is because of lack of freedom they have to live in the outside world. I don't agree with mages being taken from their families for the rest of their lives, the fact that they have no clue what the outside world is like is a problem. 

But I would never agree to them governing themselves or using their magic at will and if that is the price that must be paid just so mages can have freedom then they should stay locked up or killed in their little war.

Well said. I agree.

[lil yonce]

And that ritzy palace in Cumberland where the mages held the College of Magi-- that place was nice. Incredibly luxurious. And what did the mages accomplish at their gatherings? Nothing. It was a conclave everyone attended primarily to be scene as if they were senators playing Circle politics in Tevinter. And then they complain about a lack of change and how oppressive the Chantry is and how it never lets them set their course or make their own decisions. They accomplish little with the plethora of opportunities they've had to intelligently and peacefully plan and orchestrate a suitable treatment and compromise. Mages. SMH. They don't realize what they have-- just how good they have it compared to everyone else-- and don't attempt to make things better for themselves when they've had the opportunity.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 27 avril 2013 - 06:22 .

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
What the Mages are rebelling against is the idea of the necessity of Chantry dominion over them.

They'll have to be under someone's.  Or do you propose that mages answer to no one but themselves?  The greatest imposition of the Chantry's dominion is that the mages have to stay in a particular spot.  They could be a lot harsher.

I respectfully disagree. The mages don't need to be subjugated by anyone. And that's the entire point. Living by rules and regulations doesn't mean that the mages need to be brutally oppressed into submission.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not when it comes to forcing mages into subjugation simply for being mages.

And what other options are there? What means do normal people have to ensure their safety from the dangers of magic (malevolent, negligent, or otherwise) and their freedom from magical oppressors? They have none, the Circle is the best option they have short of killing them the moment it's clear what they are.

You'll honestly forgive mages their crimes when they have clear alternatives but not the non-mages when they have none?

There are other options besides imprisoning mages and leaving them at the mercy of an anti-mage religious order. And the Circle isn't the best option by far.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Historically, slaves received housing, they were fed, and some were even given luxury clothes and educated in certain places, so I'm not certain why you're even bringing up these points as though it proves anything when anyone who has a passing knowledge of history realizes it means absolutely nothing.

Yes but these are given in exchange for something, typically service. The Chantry provides these things and, unless there's something in the books I've missed, demands nothing from them in return save to follow a few rules. A mage can do nothing but study magic from the day they enter the Circle til the day they die, they aren't forced to work for the Chantry in any capacity.

You seem to think that it's an ideal place to live, but it isn't. Even Irving acknowledges: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you inquiring as to why I use the term? We have in-game authors who address that some mages refused to remain servants of the Chantry when they decided to leave the Chantry controlled Circle. We have the historical Aldenon the Wise, the former Grey Warden Anders, and pro-mage Hawke referring to the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery.

I'm suggesting the term is inaccurate. The mages are prisoners yes but not slaves. As for people referring to the Circle as slavery that's fine, but I don't see anything to back it up. I'm more of a slave than a mage because I am forced to work, I am forced to pay regular tribute, and I am forced to abide by rules dictated to me from on high. Living a life of quiet study is not an option for me.

I don't see how it's inaccurate when multiple sources use the exact same language to describe the Chantry controlled Circle. Even the moderate Irving comments on the Hero of Ferelden freeing their people from "their shackles" by requesting independence for the Circle of Ferelden.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm pretty sure the elves could make that exact argument about humans, given everything they have endured since the fall of Arlathan and the Dales. However, Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike.

Yes but it was still only mages enslaving people. If you had non-mage slave masters bleeding people out for giggles the fact that both mages and non-mages were oppressed would mean something, but it isn't about who's enslaved it's about who's doing the slaving.

As for the elves yeah they could, and do, take this viewpoint. However my point was that if we keep using crimes of the past committed against us to justify crimes in the future we'll commit nothing is ever going to get any better.

Unless your argument is that every member of Tevinter was a mage, then that's not a realistic argument to make. Mages and non-mages made up the Tevinter Imperium. Mages and non-mages enslaved mages and non-mages.

[MisterJB]

Ok, no! That is bullsh*t.
The non-mages of Tevinter can't hold any political power , they have not enslaved anyone, they simply have no other options to survive. It's the magisters who extablished and protect the slaving system of Tevinter like that that time they murdered an Archon who tried to outlaw slavery.
Own up to the sh*t commited by the mages, will you?

[Lazy Jer]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And that ritzy palace in Cumberland where the mages held the College of Magi-- that place was nice. Incredibly luxurious. And what did the mages accomplish at their gatherings? Nothing. It was a conclave everyone attended primarily to be scene as if they were senators playing Circle politics in Tevinter. And then they complain about a lack of change and how oppressive the Chantry is and how it never lets them set their course or make their own decisions. They accomplish little with the plethora of opportunities they've had to intelligently and peacefully plan and orchestrate a suitable treatment and compromise. Mages. SMH. They don't realize what they have-- just how good they have it compared to everyone else-- and don't attempt to make things better for themselves when they've had the opportunity.

They don't have it better then everyone else.  They have nicer accommodations then most people in some Circles but they still live under the threat of being made tranquil until they pass their Harrowing.  If they fail their Harrowing they get killed.  If they take too long to finish their Harrowing they get killed.  If they read the wrong tome they might get accused of being blood mages or mallifacarum and get killed.  Just because they have a bed without fleas doesn't mean they have it better.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 27 avril 2013 - 09:59 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Ok, no! That is bullsh*t.

No, it isn't. Not by a longshot. Unless you're arguing that every member of the Imperium is a mage, your entire line of thought makes little sense. The atrocities would be committed by mages and non-mages, regardless of who is in charge of the Imperium.

MisterJB wrote...

The non-mages of Tevinter can't hold any political power , they have not enslaved anyone, they simply have no other options to survive. It's the magisters who extablished and protect the slaving system of Tevinter like that that time they murdered an Archon who tried to outlaw slavery.

So they should be absolved of guilt because they were just "following orders"?

MisterJB wrote...

Own up to the sh*t commited by the mages, will you?

Given what you just said above, you're the last person who should ever ask that of anyone.

[lil yonce]

^^@LazyJer; Do you know about the Palace at Cumberland? Its not a Circle itself. It's Capitol Hill for the Magi. Do you know how they waste every opportunity to negotiate and install proper change at their gatherings. How they accomplish absolutely nothing-- not even more mundane issues are resolved there? Do you think the petty bickering amongst them will disappear when they're starving in the wilderness?

Do they think everyone in Thedas has the opportunity, the right by Chantry law, to advocate and lobby as one voice? They take for granted the position and power they do wield. They have stupid leaders. Where's a Lucrosian when you need one? They have the right idea when it comes to instituting Circle reform and establishing a real and stable independence.

And precautions, as strict as they appear, are necessary. A mage could instantly become a danger to everyone around them should they be so weak as to allow a demon to possess them. Irving had restricted tomes in his office and was he accused of being a blood mage? No. Who has been accused of being a blood mage from reading a tome that wasn't on blood magic? In Jowan's case, he did read tomes on blood magic. In any case, you don't go behind your mentor's or watcher's back to learn powerful magic in secret and expect them not to do anything about it. The Templars have a ruthless, thankless responsibility, but it is one that must be carried out.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 27 avril 2013 - 11:01 .