615 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. Not by a longshot. Unless you're arguing that every member of the Imperium is a mage, your entire line of thought makes little sense. The atrocities would be committed by mages and non-mages, regardless of who is in charge of the Imperium.

Except the attrocities were all commited by mages with the non-mages being regularly on the receiving end.

So they should be absolved of guilt because they were just "following orders"?

Given the fact that the only way for a non-mage to become anything in the Tevinter Imperium is by serving morally bankarupt mages who will order them to perform nefarious deeds or they will just kill them and their families with no one giving a damn, yes.

Given what you just said above, you're the last person who should ever ask that of anyone.

Right, I suspect that in a few days, it was non-mages who built the Tevinter Imperium and elgalized. The Magisters were clearly just a front. You're already claiming that non-mages enslaved mages in the Imperium.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 11:20 .

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Are you serious?[/quote]

Quite.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
The Chantry forces mages to abandon their families and live within the confines of a building, such that privacy and independence don't exist.  They have to have permission simply to go outside the walls of their prison, and even IF they get it, they have to be under guard.  Within those walls, they are under CONSTANT surveillance, and natural human interactions--i.e. romantic relationships--are frowned upon to the extent that mages are forced to sneak about just to have a private moment.  If they have children, those children are automatically the property of the Chantry.[/quote]

Which is consistent with imprisonment or quarantine as well as slavery. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Mages that prefer not to live this way, under constant scrutiny and having their very relationships dicated to them, are regarded as criminals and hunted down.  We're told that they are often branded with the label of maleficar simply for refusing to submit to Chantry law, when they may simply be apostates--and once a mage is branded a maleficar, their life is forfeit.  Even in more moderate Circles we hear stories of Templars all too eager to execute mages: see Aneirin, Wynne's elven apprentice.[/quote]

Again, falls in line with prison.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Slavery isn't about forced labor.  It's about ownership.  Everything about the Circle system screams slavery.[/quote]

Ok explain how then?  What about the system makes you feel the Chantry sees mages as their property?  Dictation and enforcement of rules?  Well that would make me a slave to my government.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
It isn't as though the mages are given a choice in the matter, after all.[/quote]

Yes they do actually.  The mages have input through the Fraternities and the First Enchanter on how the Circles are run.  They have rights which are protected by the law like the right to own property, the right to free association.  Hell the Chantry allowed the existence of a Fraternity speciifically pushing for greater autonomy.  It was mages who came up with the idea of the Circle in the first place.  The mages can affect change in the Circle system however as has been posted above they don't.  They waste their meetings in Cumberland posturing.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
They are required by Chantry law NOT merely to undergo training in their powers, but to remove themselves from mainstream society, again, under pain of death or psychic castration.  They don't have to actually commit any violent crimes to be imprisoned; they simply are as a matter of course.[/quote]

Yes the same way we lock up the untreatably insane, because whether they mean to or not they pose a danger to themselves and those around them.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
It MAY be necessary.  But don't make the mistake of assuming that because it's necessary it somehow doesn't qualify as slavery.  Maybe you don't like seeing the label applied because it's an ugly term for an ugly truth, and you'd prefer not to see something you regard as necessary stained with such a harsh label, but that doesn't make the term any less applicable.

[/quote]

I have no problem with the label other than I don't feel it fits.  Similar to people referring to my dog as a Rotweiller.  I correct them not because I have a problem with Rotweillers (I would love to own one some day) or even with people thinking he's aggressive but because he's not a Rotweiller.  If I felt the Circle system was actually slavery I'd have no problem with the term being used, but I don't because it just doesn't fit (IMO).

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
What the Mages are rebelling against is the idea of the necessity of Chantry dominion over them.[/quote]

They'll have to be under someone's. Or do you propose that mages answer to no one but themselves? The greatest imposition of the Chantry's dominion is that the mages have to stay in a particular spot. They could be a lot harsher. [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The mages don't need to be subjugated by anyone. And that's the entire point. Living by rules and regulations doesn't mean that the mages need to be brutally oppressed into submission.[/quote]

You misunderstand. Mages are rebelling against Chantry dominion because they find it brutally oppressive, they're wrong because not one of them has an idea what true brutality is, but the point is they believe it to be so and they are rebelling. However unless you propose they answer to no one but themselves the mages are going to have to accept somebody having dominion over them. Some authourity to which they answer.

Furthermore yes this authourity will have to be brutal because the amount of damage a mage can do when they have a mind to do so means that any who do need to be put down fast.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Not when it comes to forcing mages into subjugation simply for being mages.[/quote]

And what other options are there? What means do normal people have to ensure their safety from the dangers of magic (malevolent, negligent, or otherwise) and their freedom from magical oppressors? They have none, the Circle is the best option they have short of killing them the moment it's clear what they are.

You'll honestly forgive mages their crimes when they have clear alternatives but not the non-mages when they have none? [/quote]

There are other options besides imprisoning mages and leaving them at the mercy of an anti-mage religious order. And the Circle isn't the best option by far.[/quote]

For the mages no it certainly isn't but I'm not talking about them. Magic is dangerous, it doesn't matter if there is malicious intent or not a mage who makes a mistake is just as dangerous, if not more so, as a mage who wishes to do harm. The non-mages had to come up with a way to protect themselves from that danger so they chose quarantine over extermination. So what system do you propose the non-mages come up with that effectively protects them?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Historically, slaves received housing, they were fed, and some were even given luxury clothes and educated in certain places, so I'm not certain why you're even bringing up these points as though it proves anything when anyone who has a passing knowledge of history realizes it means absolutely nothing.[/quote]

Yes but these are given in exchange for something, typically service. The Chantry provides these things and, unless there's something in the books I've missed, demands nothing from them in return save to follow a few rules. A mage can do nothing but study magic from the day they enter the Circle til the day they die, they aren't forced to work for the Chantry in any capacity. [/quote]

You seem to think that it's an ideal place to live, but it isn't. Even Irving acknowledges: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."[/quote]

It doesn't matter if it's an ideal place to live it's still a place to live with clothes to wear and food to eat with nothing demanded from them in return.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Are you inquiring as to why I use the term? We have in-game authors who address that some mages refused to remain servants of the Chantry when they decided to leave the Chantry controlled Circle. We have the historical Aldenon the Wise, the former Grey Warden Anders, and pro-mage Hawke referring to the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery.[/quote]

I'm suggesting the term is inaccurate. The mages are prisoners yes but not slaves. As for people referring to the Circle as slavery that's fine, but I don't see anything to back it up. I'm more of a slave than a mage because I am forced to work, I am forced to pay regular tribute, and I am forced to abide by rules dictated to me from on high. Living a life of quiet study is not an option for me. [/quote]

I don't see how it's inaccurate when multiple sources use the exact same language to describe the Chantry controlled Circle. Even the moderate Irving comments on the Hero of Ferelden freeing their people from "their shackles" by requesting independence for the Circle of Ferelden.[/quote]

I'm sure if you asked most highschool students they'd consider their school a prison, I'm sure if you went across the country you'd find students from coast to coast usuing the same language to describe these institutions. Common perception by a population does not make something a reality. Yes there are characters in the game world who refer to the Circle as slavery, I disagree. The Circle is slavery in the same way my dog is livestock.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm pretty sure the elves could make that exact argument about humans, given everything they have endured since the fall of Arlathan and the Dales. However, Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike.[/quote]

Yes but it was still only mages enslaving people. If you had non-mage slave masters bleeding people out for giggles the fact that both mages and non-mages were oppressed would mean something, but it isn't about who's enslaved it's about who's doing the slaving.

As for the elves yeah they could, and do, take this viewpoint. However my point was that if we keep using crimes of the past committed against us to justify crimes in the future we'll commit nothing is ever going to get any better.[/quote]

Unless your argument is that every member of Tevinter was a mage, then that's not a realistic argument to make.[/quote]

How is it not realistic? A groups view on their oppression focuses on the people they were oppressed by not with.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages and non-mages made up the Tevinter Imperium. Mages and non-mages enslaved mages and non-mages.[/quote]

Source? When have we ever heard of non-mage slave owners, past or present, in the Tevinter Imperium?

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

^^@LazyJer; Do you know about the Palace at Cumberland? Its not a Circle itself. It's Capitol Hill for the Magi. Do you know how they waste every opportunity to negotiate and install proper change at their gatherings. How they accomplish absolutely nothing-- not even more mundane issues are resolved there? Do you think the petty bickering amongst them will disappear when they're starving in the wilderness?

Do they think everyone in Thedas has the opportunity, the right by Chantry law, to advocate and lobby as one voice? They take for granted the position and power they do wield. They have stupid leaders. Where's a Lucrosian when you need one? They have the right idea when it comes to instituting Circle reform and establishing a real and stable independence.

And precautions, as strict as they appear, are necessary. A mage could instantly become a danger to everyone around them should they be so weak as to allow a demon to possess them. Irving had restricted tomes in his office and was he accused of being a blood mage? No. Who has been accused of being a blood mage from reading a tome that wasn't on blood magic? In Jowan's case, he did read tomes on blood magic. In any case, you don't go behind your mentor's or watcher's back to learn powerful magic in secret and expect them not to do anything about it. The Templars have a ruthless, thankless responsibility, but it is one that must be carried out.

Right, even in the game the mages had crap leaders, just look at First Enchanter Blood Mage Orsino.
Besides the danger mages can pose with blood magic and so on, the abundant use of magic itself can thin the veil. Why shouldn't an organization exist to restrict its use to prevent that from happening? It pretty much ensures that some group must constantly watch over the mages in some form not just police them when they do wrong.

I haven't read the books, I had no idea they had gatherings where they could tackle issues affecting them and so on yet refused to use it wisely to better themselves. No wonder Meredith says she has to protect them from their own stupidity.

[Silfren]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
The Chantry forces mages to abandon their families and live within the confines of a building, such that privacy and independence don't exist.  They have to have permission simply to go outside the walls of their prison, and even IF they get it, they have to be under guard.  Within those walls, they are under CONSTANT surveillance, and natural human interactions--i.e. romantic relationships--are frowned upon to the extent that mages are forced to sneak about just to have a private moment.  If they have children, those children are automatically the property of the Chantry.[/quote]

Which is consistent with imprisonment or quarantine as well as slavery.[/quote]

That it is consistent with other things doesn't really do a damn thing to refute my point. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Slavery isn't about forced labor.  It's about ownership.  Everything about the Circle system screams slavery.[/quote]

Ok explain how then?  What about the system makes you feel the Chantry sees mages as their property?  Dictation and enforcement of rules?  Well that would make me a slave to my government.[/quote]

You keep saying it's "just" rule enforcement.  That's not it at all, because you can't separate away the KIND of rules that are being enforced.  Unless you want me to believe that your government locks up an entire group of people because an accident of birth means that they MIGHT hurt someone at some point in their life, and goes so far as to prevent those people from ever seeing their families again, AND takes their children away, AND will enforce this regulation under pain of death, such that if you refuse, you are murdered outright.  Do you expect me to believe that this is your situation?  Or that you'd be okay with it if it was?

I'm legally forbidden from speeding on the highway and from taking my neighbors' personal property and from inflicting bodily harm on other people.  None of these rules and regulations constrain my personal liberties in any way that affects my quality of life.  So drop the disingenuous bullsh*t about "mere" dication and enforcement of rules as if that alone is the issue.  I'm saying that the rules being enforced equate to forcing mages into a life of slavery.

Don't try to make criminal imprisonment or incarceration of the mentally ill analagous.  One, they aren't, and two, using this argument assumes I don't have problems with either one.  I do.

[quote]Yes they do actually.  The mages have input through the Fraternities and the First Enchanter on how the Circles are run.  They have rights which are protected by the law like the right to own property, the right to free association.  Hell the Chantry allowed the existence of a Fraternity speciifically pushing for greater autonomy.  It was mages who came up with the idea of the Circle in the first place.  The mages can affect change in the Circle system however as has been posted above they don't.  They waste their meetings in Cumberland posturing.[/quote]

You seem to be assuming that because the mages have not effectively managed to bring change to the Circle system, they must never have tried.  I don't see this.  I do see that it means that having their Fraternities and the right to assembly hasn't done anything.  Note also that Leliana herself alludes to the idea that the Fraternities have merely been tolerated.  Note also that we don't EVER hear of any Chantry affiliates, from the Templars and others, mentioning that the mages have had the opportunity to work with the Chantry on reforming the system, which is something I'd expect the Chantry to use as an argument against mages b*tching against the system if it were true.  We DO hear the templars and the Chantry insisting that the current way is the ONLY way.  That doesn't sound at all to me like the mages have ever had any real power to create change. 

There's some debate as to whether the mages came up with the Circle idea on their own.  Certainly it doesn't mean that their idea of the Circle is the one that we have in effect at the present time.   

[quote]Yes the same way we lock up the untreatably insane, because whether they mean to or not they pose a danger to themselves and those around them.[/quote]

Difference being that we do NOT lock up the untreatably insane from the age of five.  We do it on a case-by-case basis, as opposed to subjecting an entire class of people to an all-purpose round up.  Also, we have to DETERMINE whether they actually are a danger to themselves and others, we don't simply make a quick decision and that's the end of the story.  Although I'm talking about one place, the only place I'm familiar with.  I wouldn't presume to use "we" as if how the mentally ill are treated is universally applicable to every nation on earth.

Also, this doesn't even begin to address the many problems inherent in the system of incarcerating the "untreatably insane" which is a problematic term in itself, because a person can be untreatably insane without being a danger to anyone.  I DO know what you refer to, but the phrase "untreatably insane," is broad enough to cover more than just peopel who actually pose a danger to themselves and others.  But I digress:  yes, we do tend to incarcerate people who are so mentally unstable that they are dangerous.  But this is far from a perfect system, it could stand a lot of reforms in and of itself, so using it in the sense of "well, we do this to X people, so why are you b*tching that we do it to mages," is a bloody stupid argument. 

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, even in the game the mages had crap leaders, just look at First Enchanter Blood Mage Orsino. 
Besides the danger mages can pose with blood magic and so on, the abundant use of magic itself can thin the veil. Why shouldn't an organization exist to restrict its use to prevent that from happening? It pretty much ensures that some group must constantly watch over the mages in some form not just police them when they do wrong.

Yes. That will always be necessary. The mages will always need watchers of some kind.

I haven't read the books, I had no idea they had gatherings where they could tackle issues affecting them and so on yet refused to use it wisely to better themselves. No wonder Meredith says she has to protect them from their own stupidity.

I'll type out the passage for you.

The last conclave Rhys attented had been a spectacle.

The College of the Magi in Cumberland was a palace-- once the home of a Neverran Duchess and given to the Chantry, it was rumored, because her daughter had been discovered to have magical talent. The Duchess wished her daughter to live in the opulence to which she accustomed, and not in a dark tower a hundred miles away.

Rhys believed it. If the White Spire was impressive for its oppressive grandeur, the College was impressive for the sheer wealth on display: marble pillars, brightly painted frescoes, vases, and gilded vines that crawled up the walls. The entry hall had been especially interesting, with sandstone busts of every grand enchanter who had held the office in the last six hundred years. Everything glittered. It didn't seem like the sort of place mages would be allowed to gather, but it had been exactly that.

The "red auditorium," so named because of its domed mahogany ceiling, easily held the two hundred people in attendance: first enchanters, the heads of every fraternity, senior mages, and even intrigued apprentices. They argued, postured, split into cliques, and made speeches. Some were simply there to watch, the eldest with no small amusement at the "excitable" newcomers. Rhys had spent his time wandering amidst the cacophony, confused as to the schedule of events until he realized there wasn't one. Any attempt to enforce order was swept aside in favor of conversation.

Very little had been accomplished and, according to those who attended, that wasn't unusual. Still, nobody seemed to mind. It made the mages feel like they were a part of something bigger than just their own tower, and that when they chose they could speak as a unifed voice.

Like Magi Senators playing politics in the Tevinter Imperium. SMH. They just don't get it. They just don't understand why some are afraid they'll become Tevinter 2.0, or why some don't agree with a war to gain their independance-- how about they try proper negotiations through the College of Magi? That's what it's for.

SMH.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 01:47 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, even in the game the mages had crap leaders, just look at First Enchanter Blood Mage Orsino. 
Besides the danger mages can pose with blood magic and so on, the abundant use of magic itself can thin the veil. Why shouldn't an organization exist to restrict its use to prevent that from happening? It pretty much ensures that some group must constantly watch over the mages in some form not just police them when they do wrong.

Yes. That will always be necessary. The mages will always need watchers of some kind.

I haven't read the books, I had no idea they had gatherings where they could tackle issues affecting them and so on yet refused to use it wisely to better themselves. No wonder Meredith says she has to protect them from their own stupidity.

I'll type out the passage for you.

The last conclave Rhys attented had been a spectacle.

The College of the Magi in Cumberland was a palace-- once the home of a Neverran Duchess and given to the Chantry, it was rumored, because her daughter had been discovered to have magical talent. The Duchess wished her daughter to live in the opulence to which she accustomed, and not in a dark tower a hundred miles away.

Rhys believed it. If the White Spire was impressive for its oppressive grandeur, the College was impressive for the sheer wealth on display: marble pillars, brightly painted frescoes, vases, and gilded vines that crawled up the walls. The entry hall had been especially interesting, with sandstone busts of every grand enchanter who had held the office in the last six hundred years. Everything glittered. It didn't seem like the sort of place mages would be allowed to gather, but it had been exactly that.

The "red auditorium," so named because of its domed mahogany ceiling, easily held the two hundred people in attendance: first enchanters, the heads of every fraternity, senior mages, and even intrigued apprentices. They argued, postured, split into cliques, and made speeches. Some were simply there to watch, the eldest with no small amusement at the "excitable" newcomers. Rhys had spent his time wandering amidst the cacophony, confused as to the schedule of events until he realized there wasn't one. Any attempt to enforce order was swept aside in favor of conversation.

Very little had been accomplished and, according to those who attended, that wasn't unusual. Still, nobody seemed to mind. It made the mages feel like they were a part of something bigger than just their own tower, and that when they chose they could speak as a unifed voice.

Like Magi Senators playing politics in the Tevinter Imperium. SMH. They just don't get it. They just don't understand why some are afraid they'll become Tevinter 2.0, or why some don't agree with a war to gain their independance-- how about they try proper negotiations through the College of Magi? That's what it's for.

SMH.

Thanks for typing it out! Now I just have to shake my head in pity for those fools.  If anything the mages should be questioning their own kind instead of placing blame on everyone else.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
The Chantry forces mages to abandon their families and live within the confines of a building, such that privacy and independence don't exist.  They have to have permission simply to go outside the walls of their prison, and even IF they get it, they have to be under guard.  Within those walls, they are under CONSTANT surveillance, and natural human interactions--i.e. romantic relationships--are frowned upon to the extent that mages are forced to sneak about just to have a private moment.  If they have children, those children are automatically the property of the Chantry.[/quote]

Which is consistent with imprisonment or quarantine as well as slavery.[/quote]

That it is consistent with other things doesn't really do a damn thing to refute my point.[/quote]

Then you miss mine, which was that those qualities on their own do not make the Circle system slavery as they are seen in other systems as well. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Slavery isn't about forced labor.  It's about ownership.  Everything about the Circle system screams slavery.[/quote]

Ok explain how then?  What about the system makes you feel the Chantry sees mages as their property?  Dictation and enforcement of rules?  Well that would make me a slave to my government.[/quote]

You keep saying it's "just" rule enforcement.  That's not it at all, because you can't separate away the KIND of rules that are being enforced.  Unless you want me to believe that your government locks up an entire group of people because an accident of birth means that they MIGHT hurt someone at some point in their life, and goes so far as to prevent those people from ever seeing their families again, AND takes their children away, AND will enforce this regulation under pain of death, such that if you refuse, you are murdered outright.  Do you expect me to believe that this is your situation?  Or that you'd be okay with it if it was?[/quote]

Because it is "just" rule enforcement, the only two "kinds" being rules that make sense and rules that don't.  The Circle rules make sense; keeping the mages contained means that if there is a disaster civillian casualties are limited and there are always people on hand who have the means to contain them.  Close relationships with people; family, friends, lovers, etc. are very emotional, emotional mages are vulnerable.  As for taking children away, the Circle isn't the best place to raise an infant.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
I'm legally forbidden from speeding on the highway and from taking my neighbors' personal property and from inflicting bodily harm on other people.  None of these rules and regulations constrain my personal liberties in any way that affects my quality of life.  So drop the disingenuous bullsh*t about "mere" dication and enforcement of rules as if that alone is the issue.[/quote]

It is the only issue because as I stated the rules make sense.  They're admittedly harsh and I understand people's issue with them but I don't sympathize.  You can't take a soft touch with people who can, in a single moment of anger, distraction, or weakness, commit mass homocide.  For the record there are plenty of laws that constrain my personal liberties in such a way as to negatively impact my quality of life.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
I'm saying that the rules being enforced equate to forcing mages into a life of slavery.[/quote]

Again how, what about the rules makes it slavery?

[quote]Silfren wrote...


[quote]Yes they do actually.  The mages have input through the Fraternities and the First Enchanter on how the Circles are run.  They have rights which are protected by the law like the right to own property, the right to free association.  Hell the Chantry allowed the existence of a Fraternity speciifically pushing for greater autonomy.  It was mages who came up with the idea of the Circle in the first place.  The mages can affect change in the Circle system however as has been posted above they don't.  They waste their meetings in Cumberland posturing.[/quote]You seem to be assuming that because the mages have not effectively managed to bring change to the Circle system, they must never have tried.  I don't see this.  I do see that it means that having their Fraternities and the right to assembly hasn't done anything.[/quote]

With the exception of Orsino I've seen no evidence of the mages trying to change things and being shot down.  Not in the codexes, not in the dialogue, and the only thing I've heard from the books or comics is Asunder.  Therefore with no evidence they're being prevented from affecting change as a matter of course, and no evidence of them making serious attempts to affect change at all, I go with the sensible conclusion they either aren't trying or they're pulling a Fiona/Anders and making demands they know will be shot down just so they can say, "See!  We're powerless."

[quote]Silfren wrote...


[quote]Yes the same way we lock up the untreatably insane, because whether they mean to or not they pose a danger to themselves and those around them.[/quote]Difference being that we do NOT lock up the untreatably insane from the age of five.  We do it on a case-by-case basis, as opposed to subjecting an entire class of people to an all-purpose round up.[/quote]

We don't lock them up that young cause they're rarely diagnosed that early.  Let's say though that there was a hereditary disease that didn't manifest until the age of about 5 - 10 that made the person mentally unstable to the point they were a danger to themselves and others.  I guarantee at the slightest sign of any symptom we'd be testing children and, if found to have this disease we'd confine them for their and others safety.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Also, we have to DETERMINE whether they actually are a danger to themselves and others, we don't simply make a quick decision and that's the end of the story.[/quote]

This determination has been made.  Magic is dangerous, simply being nervouse caused one apprenticed to engulf himself in flame.  The level of emotional control you'd need for a mage to never, ever pose a danger to anyone just isn't humanly possible.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
But I digress:  yes, we do tend to incarcerate people who are so mentally unstable that they are dangerous.  But this is far from a perfect system, it could stand a lot of reforms in and of itself, so using it in the sense of "well, we do this to X people, so why are you b*tching that we do it to mages," is a bloody stupid argument. 
[/quote]

No it's not perfect but it's what we've got to work with.  Same with the Circle, it's not perfect and it could stand to be improved but it's the best option the people of Thedas have at the moment.  And no the Dalish, Chasind, Rivain system of just accepting the risks and taking a "clean up and carry on" approach are not better.

[TEWR]

I had no idea they had gatherings where they could tackle issues affecting them and so on yet refused to use it wisely to better themselves

Such things would have to go through the Divine, whose views on matters is dependent on her views on mages. Justinia V is the wild card, the exception to the rule. And even then, her authority on matters isn't strong, as Asunder shows. Her views are causing her to lose support.

They can discuss the matters and the Grand Enchanter will bring it to the Divine if they reach a majority opinion/consensus, but the Divine is the final arbiter on what passes.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2013 - 03:23 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Thanks for typing it out!

No problem. 

Now I just have to shake my head in pity for those fools. If anything the mages should be questioning their own kind instead of placing blame on everyone else.

I know, right?

They wasted the College of Magi-- every legitimate and peaceful opportunity to better themselves. Apparently it's only been used once in a noteworthy way-- to call for separation from the Chantry at the end of Asunder. SMH. Foolish. Why choose first the option that will result in the most bloodshed and death?

And the Divine was on their side. Too Pro-Mage for her own good-- she had me rolling my eyes at her rhetoric, and I'm rather moderate on the issue of mage rights and liberties. Everything was going their way, and still this is what they do?

I want to backhand Fiona and condemn Adrian to rot in the Void. The main culprits behind the Mage-Templar War. They don't want to meet me in DA3.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 06:57 .

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Such things would have to go through the Divine, whose views on matters is dependent on her views on mages.

You read the passage, right? They didn't even try.

And they have leverage. Who makes all the money for the Circle? Who makes good money for the Chantry? Who provides useful services like healing etc. Who do you call on in wartime? Who are some of your talented, knowledgable scholars? The Magi and Tranquil of the Circle.

Justinia V is the wild card, the exception to the rule. And even then, her authority on matters isn't strong, as Asunder shows. Her views are causing her to lose support.

Publically, Justinia can make the Templars fall in line so long as the order isn't outstanding and the reasoning just. The Lord Seeker capitulates to her during the presentation of Pharmond's research-- Lambert does as told and arranges for the College of Magi to meet in the White Spire. And under any Divine, if the mages threaten to or go on strike, something will be done quick, fast, and in hurry to facilitate compromise.

They can discuss the matters and the Grand Enchanter will bring it to the Divine if they reach a majority opinion/consensus, but the Divine is the final arbiter on what passes.

Again, they don't even try to get that far. They're content to act like the big wigs they aren't.

Little Tevinter in the making.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 04:14 .

[TEWR]

You read the passage, right? They didn't even try.

I wouldn't say they don't try. Opinions are just heavily divided such that arguments never reach a certain point where progress can be made.

And they meet... what... once ever year? For how many days at a time? And representatives have to travel from all over the nation? You're never really going to make much progress then, because different issues will pop up each year.  There'd be a massive backlog on what to discuss.

It'd be one thing if they had months to discuss a single issue and never made any progress.

Correct me if I'm mistaken on when they meet and for how long, though.

And they have leverage. Who makes all the money for the Circle? Who makes good money for the Chantry?

Does the Chantry get money from the Circle's ventures? I know the Circle sustains itself because of the Lucrosians and Formari, but that's another matter.

Regardless, all the things you list as leverage could just as easily be seen as threats and treason. Just look at how the one Divine consider the Mages lodging a peaceful protest treasonous and deserving of an Exalted March.

Little Tevinter in the making.

Not really.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2013 - 04:19 .

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I wouldn't say they don't try. Opinions are just heavily divided such that arguments never reach a certain point.

They don't even have a schedule of events. They don't vote on anything. They don't try. They split into cliques and enjoy the conversation and atmosphere.

And they meet... what... once ever year? For how many days at a time?

I don't believe the book says how often or how long, though it hints in other passages that it is for a substantial period of time. And why do you believe its only once year? It can aso be called at will to discuss important events, topics, etc with approval.

And representatives have to travel from all over the nation? You're never really going to make much progress then, because different issues will pop up each year.  There'd be a massive backlog on what to discuss.

The Landsmeets are held once a year and the Ferelden Nobility and Throne manage their issues just fine.

It'd be one thing if they had months to discuss a single issue and never made any progress.

They haven't made any progress in years.

Does the Chantry get money from the Circle's ventures? I know the Circle sustains itself because of the Lucrosians and Formari, but that's another matter.

The Lucrosians should be running the show. The only smart mages in the Circle.

Regardless, all the things you list as leverage could just as easily be seen as threats and treason.

So being a lazy bum is cause for death? Striking works universally. They aren't threatening to overthrow the Templars-- they will simply refuse a nation aid in wartime. Force the Chantry to pay for them. Refuse to leave the Circles when called for civil service. And stop doing scholarly research. And should that fail, you then may have reason to call for separation-- but they didn't try any of that. They did not try a peaceful option at all. They made no attempt. They choose first the option that would without a doubt result in the most chaos and death.

Just look at how the one Divine consider the Mages lodging a peaceful protest treasonous and deserving of an Exalted March.

And that was so unreasonable the Templars did not heed her. They instead negotiated with what would become the Circle of Magi. 

Not really.

Yes, really.

And I can't respond to any more of your replies as you have yet to respond to my earlier posts. It isn't really fair to them. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 06:02 .

[Silfren]

For the record, it could be that the meetings at Cumberland go on the way they do because the mages quite simply gave up trying to effect change through it because they always failed. Presumably these meetings have been happening for the existence of the Circle. We have NO idea how they have always been like.

I find it much too unbelievable that all Circle mages, everywhere, have just lollygagged about and ignored any existing channels they've had for change, only to erupt into war one day. It's much more likely that they HAVE tried, and found all those measures to be met with disdain by the Chantry time and time again.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

For the record, it could be that the meetings at Cumberland go on the way they do because the mages quite simply gave up trying to effect change through it because they always failed.  Presumably these meetings have been happening for the existence of the Circle. We have NO idea how they have always been like.

The current conclave had official support from the very top. How long has Justina V sat on the Sunburst Throne? How long has Senior Enchanter, and later, Archmage Wynne preached patience, peace, and sucessive approximations? Years. Their joint initiative and goal was close to realization with Pharamond's research. It was tabled, however, by Grand Enchanter Fiona in favor of Circle separation at the final College of Magi gathering. SMH.

I find it much too unbelievable that all Circle mages, everywhere, have just lollygagged about and ignored any existing channels they've had for change, only to erupt into war one day. It's much more likely that they HAVE tried, and found all those measures to be met with disdain by the Chantry time and time again.

That is not the impression I receive. It appears to me that they were, and really are, so in awe of the stage on which they are allowed govern themselves, they're swept away by it's grand atmposhere-- prefering to luxuriate in the Palace at Cumberland, and fancy themselves important beyond their purpose there rather than work seriously. That appears to me to be, unfortunately, the long-standing culture of the Collge of Magi.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 06:58 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Thanks for typing it out!

No problem. 

Now I just have to shake my head in pity for those fools. If anything the mages should be questioning their own kind instead of placing blame on everyone else.

I know, right?

They wasted the College of Magi-- every legitimate and peaceful opportunity to better themselves. Apparently it's only been used once in a noteworthy way-- to call for separation from the Chantry at the end of Asunder. SMH. Foolish. Why choose first the option that will result in the most bloodshed and death?

And the Divine was on their side. Too Pro-Mage for her own good-- she had me rolling my eyes at her rhetoric, and I'm rather moderate on the issue of mage rights and liberties. Everything was going their way, and still this is what they do.

I want to backhand Fiona and condemn Adrian to rot in the Void. The main culprits behind the Mage-Templar War. They don't want to meet me in DA3.

It seems obvious that mages just don't want to do the hard work needed to achieve independance. Perhaps their powerful ability to take shortcuts (i.e. blood magic, demon summoning) has pretty much made them lazy as hell overall so they'll charge head first to what seems like their usual methods of blood and death to get their way.

I just finished looking up more info on their different faternities and the Lucrosians seem to be the only ones with the right idea. The others either want to live in the woods, fight the chantry, not change their station at all, or don't know what the heck they want. Why doesn't it surprise me that the group who wants to fight the chantry and use violence is the largest of them all while the smart ones who understand that wealth equals true power and influence are the smallest? Oh why oh why doesn't that surprise me at all.

This actually reminds me of a quote from the song of ice and fire:

"She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant
seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish
you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young
girls would choose fire every time."

The way I see it the mages are choosing fire over what could sustain them over time.  I just wonder how on earth are they going to fight a war of separation from the Chantry with no money, no food, no clean water, and no money for a military force, and even if they got some suckers (perhaps King Alistair) to help them no way to sustain said army? Also as enemies of the Chantry and now known to champion the murder of Grand Clerics, even if they achieved their goal of freedom, what country would take them? How do they expect to live in Thedas after the war is done? How can they rebuild even if they win and destroy the Chantry? Would the nobles suddenly roll over and bow to them? I highly doubt it, so they'll be looking at another possible war which they surely won't survive with very little resources. Their only hope would be the Tevinter helping them(as far as I know) and well...let's all just laugh about that for a moment cause we all know they would be under their thumb afterwards. But I don't see how the Tevinter could offer aid seeing that they still have the Qunari to deal with. Oh boy. lol!

[MisterJB]

That is true. Were all the mages Lucrosian, then the non-mages would have reason to fear them. Wealth is power. The mages could literally buy their freedom.
Do you want to take a trip to the city? Just give coin to the right templar. Do you want a more mage-friendly Divine in the throne? No problem at all, just make the right coin reach the hands of the right Grand Clerics.
Magic is not the most powerful thing in the world. Gold is.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 avril 2013 - 12:24 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

That is true. Were all the mages Lucrosian, then the non-mages would have reason to fear them. Wealth is power. The mages could literally buy their freedom.
Do you want to take a trip to the city? Just give coin to the right templar. Do you want a more mage-friendly Divine in the throne? No problem at all, just make the right coin reach the hands of the right Grand Clerics.
Magic is not the most powerful thing in the world. Gold is.

The chantry only tolerates magic. Every attempt that I know of that has been tried peacefully has always failed, and in one case, nearly resulted in an exalted march.

And you won't be able to convince me the mages could buy their freedom from the Chantry and the templars, because the templars themselves believe they have authority over the mages by divine right.

You can't reason with religious fanatics and zealots, who happen to be drug addicts, and many of them make no secret that they feel they'd be doing the world a service if the lobotomized or killed every single mage in the Circles now, and every mage as they ard discovered in the future. Money won't change that.

[BlueMagitek]

Aren't there missions in Origins involving bribing Templar?

[Hazegurl]

Not to mention the first thing the mother in Lothering ask for when you enter the chantry temple is a donation.

Seriously money trumps divine right period. Just look at our own world. Religious figures use religion to acquire wealth, power, and influence all the time. As far back as the Borgias and beyond. As I recall, the Dwarves aren't giving away Lyrium for free. It costs gold and all it takes is for a few Templars willing to spend more for supply and demand to increase thus raising the cost of Lyrium all around. Which means that even Templars who are not being bribed would be in need of more money to get it. Enter the Lucrosians. And it's not just Lyrium, the chantry seems to love helping orphans, you need money for that too. A nice healthy donation, the promise of a new Chantry temple, orphanages, the building of hospitals where healing mages can better offer their exclusive services.

You think the Templars and Chantry would choose dying of something a mage can cure for divine rights? Besides, imo the best way to do it is not to outright ask for freedom, but to obtain it slowly while making them believe they still hold those so called divine rights. Before long no one would even know what the heck their divine rights were.

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished looking up more info on their different faternities and the Lucrosians seem to be the only ones with the right idea. The others either want to live in the woods, fight the chantry, not change their station at all, or don't know what the heck they want. Why doesn't it surprise me that the group who wants to fight the chantry and use violence is the largest of them all while the smart ones who understand that wealth equals true power and influence are the smallest? Oh why oh why doesn't that surprise me at all.

I've thought the Lucrosians were the best thing for the Circle for months. I wrote this a while ago to TWER:

Slowly and assuredly from there, she [The Divine] must create an environment that will institute a cultural change. I would encourage the Lucrosian approach to societal integration. I would ease restrictions that prevent Circle Mages from owning wealth and encourage entrepreneurship. 

Mages who make money can pay for the expenses of the Circle. Lyrium used in Harrowings, for example. Because lyrium is expensive, and so much of it is used in a single Harrowing, the Chantry does not allow all mages to undertake the ritual. Those who don't are made Tranquil. The mages themselves could pay the expenses for lyrium and ensure every mage is given the chance to attempt the Harrowing. I doubt many Templars will object if reduced Circle expenses mean bigger salaries and better benefits for them and their families. Or if reduced Circle expenses mean the Chantry can take on more societal projects like building universities, caring for the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disenfranchised, etc.

Also, businesses and business owners pay taxes. You are a much more valued member of society when you pay taxes. Taxpayers have a much easier time gaining representation in government. Eventual representation in government will raise awareness of the Mage Situtation and involve Circle Mages in the general issues of Thedas. Etc. I think you can see the natural evolution of change from here. 

-----

(In a later post)

Personally, I value the Lucrosian approach to societal integration, and would only allow marriages among Circles that can afford children, and currently the Mages as a whole cannot. Once the Mages have their own income, marriage could become a standard right. The Circles of Magi can cover the costs of additional housing, food, and general supplies. I can't see the Chantry footing the bill for any of these things itself, or even allowing them because of what they represent, without receiving a significant and tangible return.

[...]another Tower, or similar building, must be built, and the Circle of Magi must finance it's construction and operation. The married Mages would continue to formally, and functionally, reside in the Circles of Magi. There is no great advantage to being married in this scenario. Another tower would also necessitate more oversight, but I'm certain the Chantry would gladly use this excuse to subsidize new Templars.

They need to encourage capitalism. Stress civil service, shopkeeping, paying national and local taxes, and making donations to commoners whenever they can. That's how you get people to like and respect you. This is the road to proper and lasting change. The simple scholars, philosophers, and professors-- what the Magi are now-- aren't practical to intstilling change. Academia aren't "doers". They're debaters who are too caught up in their beliefs and approach to get anything worthwhile done. The Magi need a practical approach that will soften views towards them and one that will give them more stability and leverage.

Put me in the Circle! Make me Grand Enchanter! I'll get it done right! 

For example, a group of aposate mages destroys a town. Who steps in after the Templars have secured said town? The Circle of Magi with a sizable donation for recontruction, healers, food, clothing, blankets, etc. They can preserve meat with cold/ice spells. Easily make fires. The works. If bandits attack a town the Magi should act in the same manner. Anything to help and change the way they're viewed. This is the kind of thing they should be doing as part of a civil service initiaitive. Mundane tasks like meat preservation, installing glowlaps, etc. should be become routine tasks.

It's certainly not as glamourous as researching the Demonic Hierarchy, but it's way more useful currently. And who makes all of their money right now? The Tranquil. And with the Magi are calling for reversals of the Rite across the board, they will need someone else to take care of business.

"First Enchanter, instead of lobbying for the extra 1:00 Demonology, can we instead open a Business and Marketing section in the same time slot?"

xD lulz.  But it's what they need.

And when you have money and power, you can play politics. You can buy support within the Clergy. You can buy off Templars here and there as you and MisterJB have suggested, though you can't do so too often without abusing your freedoms and ultimately hurting your cause. But you can do that, and engage in a little cloak and dagger to get your way. Money talks.

The way I see it the mages are choosing fire over what could sustain them over time.  I just wonder how on earth are they going to fight a war of separation from the Chantry with no money, no food, no clean water, and no money for a military force, and even if they got some suckers (perhaps King Alistair) to help them no way to sustain said army? Also as enemies of the Chantry and now known to champion the murder of Grand Clerics, even if they achieved their goal of freedom, what country would take them? How do they expect to live in Thedas after the war is done? How can they rebuild even if they win and destroy the Chantry? Would the nobles suddenly roll over and bow to them? I highly doubt it, so they'll be looking at another possible war which they surely won't survive with very little resources. Their only hope would be the Tevinter helping them(as far as I know) and well...let's all just laugh about that for a moment cause we all know they would be under their thumb afterwards. But I don't see how the Tevinter could offer aid seeing that they still have the Qunari to deal with. Oh boy. lol!

Yep. They are in trouble. Didn't think this through at all. The mages who come to their senses and want go back to the Circles-- I think they will be offered a deal from the Divine and the Templars and Seekers loyal to her. And even Lord Seeker Lambert didn't want to kill the mages hiding out at Andoral's Reach-- he wanted to drag them back to the Circles.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 mai 2013 - 07:03 .

[Silfren]

Capitalism is being toted as the great solution to mage freedom? Wonderful. It's only among the world's most destructive scourges.

[lil yonce]

How unamerican. 

But seriously, it works. It's not perfect, but it works. And do you have a better way? Or is open warfare still your choice option?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 04:36 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

 How unamerican. 

But seriously, it works. It's not perfect, but it works. And do you have a better way? Or is open warfare still your choice option?

Yes, actually.  Warfare versus what I do seriously consider an even greater evil? Yes.  Capitalism isn't the great and wonderful solution to anything.  "It's not perfect, but it works," completely dismisses all the harm that capitalism has done to the world. 

'Course, I'm one of those people who sees that sometimes, war, bloody as it is, is necessary.  Sometimes it takes a war to rid the world of a festering cancer, to be the impetus for lasting change.

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished looking up more info on their different faternities and the Lucrosians seem to be the only ones with the right idea. The others either want to live in the woods, fight the chantry, not change their station at all, or don't know what the heck they want. Why doesn't it surprise me that the group who wants to fight the chantry and use violence is the largest of them all while the smart ones who understand that wealth equals true power and influence are the smallest? Oh why oh why doesn't that surprise me at all.

I've thought the Lucrosians were the best thing for the Circle for months. I wrote this a while ago to TWER:

Slowly and assuredly from there, she [The Divine] must create an environment that will institute a cultural change. I would encourage the Lucrosian approach to societal integration. I would ease restrictions that prevent Circle Mages from owning wealth and encourage entrepreneurship. 

Mages who make money can pay for the expenses of the Circle. Lyrium used in Harrowings, for example. Because lyrium is expensive, and so much of it is used in a single Harrowing, the Chantry does not allow all mages to undertake the ritual. Those who don't are made Tranquil. The mages themselves could pay the expenses for lyrium and ensure every mage is given the chance to attempt the Harrowing. I doubt many Templars will object if reduced Circle expenses mean bigger salaries and better benefits for them and their families. Or if reduced Circle expenses mean the Chantry can take on more societal projects like building universities, caring for the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disenfranchised, etc.

Also, businesses and business owners pay taxes. You are a much more valued member of society when you pay taxes. Taxpayers have a much easier time gaining representation in government. Eventual representation in government will raise awareness of the Mage Situtation and involve Circle Mages in the general issues of Thedas. Etc. I think you can see the natural evolution of change from here. 

-----

(In a later post)

Personally, I value the Lucrosian approach to societal integration, and would only allow marriages among Circles that can afford children, and currently the Mages as a whole cannot. Once the Mages have their own income, marriage could become a standard right. The Circles of Magi can cover the costs of additional housing, food, and general supplies. I can't see the Chantry footing the bill for any of these things itself, or even allowing them because of what they represent, without receiving a significant and tangible return.

[...]another Tower, or similar building, must be built, and the Circle of Magi must finance it's construction and operation. The married Mages would continue to formally, and functionally, reside in the Circles of Magi. There is no great advantage to being married in this scenario. Another tower would also necessitate more oversight, but I'm certain the Chantry would gladly use this excuse to subsidize new Templars.

They need to encourage capitalism. Stress civil service, shopkeeping, paying national and local taxes, and making donations to commoners whenever they can. That's how you get people to like and respect you. This is the road to proper and lasting change. The simple scholars, philosophers, and professors-- what the Magi are now-- aren't practical to intstilling change. Academia aren't "doers". They're debaters who are too caught up in their beliefs and approach to get anything worthwhile done. The Magi need a practical approach that will soften views towards them and one that will give them more stability.

Put me in the Circle! Make me Grand Enchanter! I'll get it done right! 

And when you have money and power, you can play politics. You can buy support within the Clergy. You can buy off Templars here and there as you and MisterJB have suggested. You can engage in a little cloak and dagger to get your way. Money talks.

The way I see it the mages are choosing fire over what could sustain them over time.  I just wonder how on earth are they going to fight a war of separation from the Chantry with no money, no food, no clean water, and no money for a military force, and even if they got some suckers (perhaps King Alistair) to help them no way to sustain said army? Also as enemies of the Chantry and now known to champion the murder of Grand Clerics, even if they achieved their goal of freedom, what country would take them? How do they expect to live in Thedas after the war is done? How can they rebuild even if they win and destroy the Chantry? Would the nobles suddenly roll over and bow to them? I highly doubt it, so they'll be looking at another possible war which they surely won't survive with very little resources. Their only hope would be the Tevinter helping them(as far as I know) and well...let's all just laugh about that for a moment cause we all know they would be under their thumb afterwards. But I don't see how the Tevinter could offer aid seeing that they still have the Qunari to deal with. Oh boy. lol!

Yep. They are in trouble. Didn't think this through at all. The mages who come to their senses and want go back to the Circles-- I think they will be offered a deal from the Divine and the Templars and Seekers loyal to her. And even Lord Seeker Lambert didn't want to kill the mages hiding out at Andoral's Reach-- he wanted to drag them back to the Circles.

Great posts! And I completely agree with everything. Too bad no one wanted to listen to the Lucrosian mages, now they're even screwed due to mage stupidity. I can also see some mages realising that this little war isn't all its cracked up to be and return to offer a deal for their lives, I wouldn't blame them.  Sadly, the actions of the others would put a damper on the small bit of progress mages had. Shame.

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is being toted as the great
solution to mage freedom? Wonderful. It's only among the world's most
destructive scourges.

Um, Capitalism is a system based on individual rights and freedom. Just remember that a long time ago free blacks were able to own plantations and slaves provided that they had the wealth to do it. There is even an account I had read once of a slave woman who bought a slave for $600, a slave who owned a slave.

Ah money makes the world go round.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism isn't the great and wonderful solution to anything.  "It's not perfect, but it works," completely dismisses all the harm that capitalism has done to the world.

 
And what about all of the good it has done? We live in one of the greatest countries in the world because of capitalism. But I digress. This is not the forum for a political discussion.

Yes, actually. Warfare versus what I do seriously consider an even greater evil? Yes. 'Course, I'm one of those people who sees that sometimes, war, bloody as it is, is necessary.  Sometimes it takes a war to rid the world of a festering cancer, to be the impetus for lasting change.

A Lucrosian approach will save lives and get the Magi what they want sensibly.

Money and political power is how everyone else in Thedas gets what they want. The Magi want equality? Join the club.

And why do you believe every mage feels as you do? Why are the Circles and Templar oversight some great evil? There are plenty who would stay there were they not condemned by the conclave at the White Spire and Andoral's reach. If you feel the Circles are a grave injustice then leave as aposates. No one is forcing you to stay.

I offer a plan for those that don't want chaos and death. Mages that are not in such a hurry to give up their lives for a futile cause. Mages who do not view war as their only option. I offer an option that is, if not more vaild, equally so.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 04:52 .