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[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is being toted as the great
solution to mage freedom? Wonderful. It's only among the world's most
destructive scourges.

Um, Capitalism is a system based on individual rights and freedom. Just remember that a long time ago free blacks were able to own plantations and slaves provided that they had the wealth to do it. There is even an account I had read once of a slave woman who bought a slave for $600, a slave who owned a slave.

That kind of illlustrates MY point, not yours.

Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedom, and that's all there is to it?  Um, no.  Moreover, there are OTHER systems based on individual rights and freedoms.  There's no reason to think that capitalism is the only one, much less the best. 

But if we go down this road, the thread'll get locked for being off-topic and political.  So I'm done; I'll just close by reiterating what I said:  war is preferable.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And why do you believe every mage feels as you do? Why are the Circles and Templar oversight some great evil? There are plenty who would stay there were they not condemned by the conclave at the White Spire and Andoral's reach. If you feel the Circles are a grave injustice then leave as aposates. No one is forcing you to stay.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it.  I didn't say one solitary word about all mages agreeing with me, though I find that statement a bit silly regardless, as no mages could agree with me, what with being fictional characters and all.

As for the underlined bit, your statement is just stupid.  Under the previous system, mages could NOT simply walk away from the Circle if they didn't like it.  They were prevented from doing so by the Templars. If they did manage to escape, they were hunted down, either to be dragged back, or executed.  They ARE being forced to stay.

I could point to a number of bloody conflicts throughout history and remind you that there have ALWAYS been people directly affected who would have preferred no war at all.  Does this mean those wars weren't necessary?  Of course not. 

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...
Ah money makes the world go round.

Sure does. 

I'll post an example of my approach I added to an earlier post. 

For example, a group of aposate mages destroys a town. Who steps in after the Templars have secured the town? The Circle of Magi with a sizable donation for recontruction, healers, food, clothing, blankets, etc. They can preserve meat with cold/ice spells. Easily make fires. The works. If bandits attack a town the Magi should act in the same manner.  Anything to help and change the way they're viewed. This is the kind of thing they should be doing as part of a civil service initiaitive. Mundane tasks like meat preservation, installing glowlaps, etc. should be become routine tasks.

It's certainly not as glamourous as researching the Demonic Hierarchy, but it's way more useful currently. And who makes all of their money right now? The Tranquil. And with the Magi are calling for reversals of the Rite across the board, they will need someone else to take care of business.

"First Enchanter, instead of lobbying for the extra 1:00 Demonology, can we instead open a Business and Marketing section in the same time slot?"

xD lulz.  But it's what they need.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 05:05 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is being toted as the great
solution to mage freedom? Wonderful. It's only among the world's most
destructive scourges.

Um, Capitalism is a system based on individual rights and freedom. Just remember that a long time ago free blacks were able to own plantations and slaves provided that they had the wealth to do it. There is even an account I had read once of a slave woman who bought a slave for $600, a slave who owned a slave.

That kind of illlustrates MY point, not yours.

Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedom, and that's all there is to it?  Um, no.  Moreover, there are OTHER systems based on individual rights and freedoms.  There's no reason to think that capitalism is the only one, much less the best. 

But if we go down this road, the thread'll get locked for being off-topic and political.  So I'm done; I'll just close by reiterating what I said:  war is preferable.

Your only point is that capitalism = bad. There is far more to it than just that, the point I'm saying is that even a slave can gain certain rights because of it. And let's not kid ourselves here, slavery existed in nearly every form of society created, capitalist or otherwise.

And remember, war costs money. Anyone who believes otherwise is just living in denial. What is needed to rebuild after a war...money.  There are better ways to achieve freedom than starting a short war and dying a fool.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it.  I didn't say one solitary word about all mages agreeing with me, though I find that statement a bit silly regardless, as no mages could agree with me, what with being fictional characters and all.

That is not to be taken literally. That is my sentiment toward the Magi who would leave and their suppoters who argue they should do so without hesitation.

As for the underlined bit, your statement is just stupid.  Under the previous system, mages could NOT simply walk away from the Circle if they didn't like it. They were prevented from doing so by the Templars. If they did manage to escape, they were hunted down, either to be dragged back, or executed.  They ARE being forced to stay.

Did they try it with a sizable group, as they've done now under their supporter Justina V, under a previous regime? No they did not. The Magi do everything so backwards. SMH. The threat of death hasn't stopped them this instance. A formal decision made by a tiny conclave is no tangible protection-- Apostates they are in practice.

I could point to a number of bloody conflicts throughout history and remind you that there have ALWAYS been people directly affected who would have preferred no war at all.  Does this mean those wars weren't necessary?  Of course not. 

But is this war necessary when there is in fact another legitimate option?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 06:04 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is being toted as the great
solution to mage freedom? Wonderful. It's only among the world's most
destructive scourges.

Um, Capitalism is a system based on individual rights and freedom. Just remember that a long time ago free blacks were able to own plantations and slaves provided that they had the wealth to do it. There is even an account I had read once of a slave woman who bought a slave for $600, a slave who owned a slave.

That kind of illlustrates MY point, not yours.

Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedom, and that's all there is to it?  Um, no.  Moreover, there are OTHER systems based on individual rights and freedoms.  There's no reason to think that capitalism is the only one, much less the best. 

But if we go down this road, the thread'll get locked for being off-topic and political.  So I'm done; I'll just close by reiterating what I said:  war is preferable.

Your only point is that capitalism = bad. There is far more to it than just that, the point I'm saying is that even a slave can gain certain rights because of it. And let's not kid ourselves here, slavery existed in nearly every form of society created, capitalist or otherwise.

Don't put words in my mouth.  At no point did I claim any such thing.  I still reject the stupid notion that capitalism is the de facto solution for mage freedom, when capitalism--or perhaps I should say the American model of capitalism--is one of the primary underlying causes behind extreme social inequities today. 

I maintain that war is preferable.  I'm aware that war costs money and resources.  That doesn't change the fact I think it would be better to fight a war and force the world of Thedas to accept that mages will insist on freedom, than to suggest that it should all just boil down to money.  Actually the idea that human rights can or should be tied in with economics is one I find repulsive. 

Modifié par Silfren, 28 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedom, and that's all there is to it?  Um, no.  Moreover, there are OTHER systems based on individual rights and freedoms.  There's no reason to think that capitalism is the only one, much less the best.  

But if we go down this road, the thread'll get locked for being off-topic and political.  So I'm done; I'll just close by reiterating what I said:  war is preferable.

If you feel there is another way, suggest it in context. War is not a better solution. Saving lives is preferable and a Lucrosian approach allows that.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedom, and that's all there is to it?  Um, no.  Moreover, there are OTHER systems based on individual rights and freedoms.  There's no reason to think that capitalism is the only one, much less the best.  

But if we go down this road, the thread'll get locked for being off-topic and political.  So I'm done; I'll just close by reiterating what I said:  war is preferable.

If you feel there is another way, suggest it in context. War is not a better solution. Saving lives is preferable and a Lucrosian approach allows that.

The Lucrosian approach links the value of humanity and all its attendant rights with money.  You don't see the problem here?

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
Ah money makes the world go round.

Sure does. 

I'll post an example of my approach I added to an earlier post. 

For example, a group of aposate mages destroys a town. Who steps in after the Templars have secured the town? The Circle of Magi with a sizable donation for recontruction, healers, food, clothing, blankets, etc. They can preserve meat with cold/ice spells. Easily make fires. The works. If bandits attack a town the Magi should act in the same manner.  Anything to help and change the way they're viewed. This is the kind of thing they should be doing as part of a civil service initiaitive. Mundane tasks like meat preservation, installing glowlaps, etc. should be become routine tasks.

It's certainly not as glamourous as researching the Demonic Hierarchy, but it's way more useful currently. And who makes all of their money right now? The Tranquil. And with the Magi are calling for reversals of the Rite across the board, they will need someone else to take care of business.

"First Enchanter, instead of lobbying for the extra 1:00 Demonology, can we instead open a Business and Marketing section in the same time slot?"

xD lulz.  But it's what they need.

Pretty much this. If I was a mage I would be right there with the business proposal drawn up and ready for signatures. lol! "First Enchanter, how about a clinic set up in Blight war torn areas to heal those who are ill?"

But nope they just want to sit around pouting and reading blood magic tomes.

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
Ah money makes the world go round.

Sure does. 

I'll post an example of my approach I added to an earlier post. 

For example, a group of aposate mages destroys a town. Who steps in after the Templars have secured the town? The Circle of Magi with a sizable donation for recontruction, healers, food, clothing, blankets, etc. They can preserve meat with cold/ice spells. Easily make fires. The works. If bandits attack a town the Magi should act in the same manner.  Anything to help and change the way they're viewed. This is the kind of thing they should be doing as part of a civil service initiaitive. Mundane tasks like meat preservation, installing glowlaps, etc. should be become routine tasks.

It's certainly not as glamourous as researching the Demonic Hierarchy, but it's way more useful currently. And who makes all of their money right now? The Tranquil. And with the Magi are calling for reversals of the Rite across the board, they will need someone else to take care of business.

"First Enchanter, instead of lobbying for the extra 1:00 Demonology, can we instead open a Business and Marketing section in the same time slot?"

xD lulz.  But it's what they need.

Pretty much this. If I was a mage I would be right there with the business proposal drawn up and ready for signatures. lol! "First Enchanter, how about a clinic set up in Blight war torn areas to heal those who are ill?"

But nope they just want to sit around pouting and reading blood magic tomes.

You're both ignoring the fact that part of the Templars' entire argument is that mages have to be kept separate from the rest of the population, that they have to be contained.  You've no reason at all to think that templars would let Mages set up up shop anywhere outside the Circle, much less as a group.  Your model here assumes that templars would happily work with the idea of mages being allowed to come and go freely, disputing everything we know about templars from origins onward.

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Don't put words in my mouth.  At no point did I claim any such thing.  I still reject the stupid notion that capitalism is the de facto solution for mage freedom, when capitalism--or perhaps I should say the American model of capitalism--is one of the primary underlying causes behind extreme social inequities today. 

I maintain that war is preferable.  I'm aware that war costs money and resources.  That doesn't change the fact I think it would be better to fight a war and force the world of Thedas to accept that mages will insist on freedom, than to suggest that it should all just boil down to money.  Actually the idea that human rights can or should be tied in with economics is one I find repulsive. 

I didn't put words in your mouth I simply summerized what your point seems to be. Since you have only spoken negatively about it then your point so far is that it is bad.

And I disagree that running around starting wars is the anwser. Being single minded and eager for destruction is what is truly repulsive behavior.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

The Lucrosian approach links the value of humanity and all its attendant rights with money.  You don't see the problem here?

It's a means to an end. Every society requires you be useful for advancement. It's sort of silly to believe otherwise. And capitalism ignores social barriers to advancement and instead values productive members of society. It does not determine their worth as human beings. Its not a spiriutal condemnation. It promotes intelligence, creativity, self-reliance. It promotes striving to better yourself. And the Magi are in great position to capitalize on this system. They have magic-- a gift no one else possesses. They're educated. What social or economic injustice do they face under a Lucriosian approach? And with the money they make they can donate to communities. They can uplift others with their success.

And you still have not offered another economic approach. You can leave the IRL politics out of it and try to apply a system to Thedas.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 02:31 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...
You're both ignoring the fact that part of the Templars' entire argument is that mages have to be kept separate from the rest of the population, that they have to be contained.  You've no reason at all to think that templars would let Mages set up up shop anywhere outside the Circle, much less as a group.  Your model here assumes that templars would happily work with the idea of mages being allowed to come and go freely, disputing everything we know about templars from origins onward.

No one said this could be done overnight, to even reach that level takes time and sadly many mage leaders seemed to be too busy partying with their noses in the air to even work toward this possible solution.  If mages were trying these things and getting nowhere at all then I would say, a boycott of services and so on is in order, if that didn't work then something else, but war is a last resort not the first. It is only if war is completely unavoidable that it becomes the right decision and even then you need tatics, strategies, alliances, post war plans, et al. 

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

You're both ignoring the fact that part of the Templars' entire argument is that mages have to be kept separate from the rest of the population, that they have to be contained.  You've no reason at all to think that templars would let Mages set up up shop anywhere outside the Circle, much less as a group.  Your model here assumes that templars would happily work with the idea of mages being allowed to come and go freely, disputing everything we know about templars from origins onward.

The Magi have the Divine on their side. Justina V is working for suitable compromise, and if the Templars as a whole can be convinced greater mage freedoms are good for everyone, they will acquiescence. They have to be shown the light. You can't boil the arguement down to, "If you were a mage, you wouldn't like this arragement. Let me go!", however. You don't get far with that.

The Magi have to appeal to what your average Templar values. Their salary. Their families. And the public they protect. That must be part of their pitch. And the Templars will of course travel with the mages where ever they go. The mages will always need watchers of some kind.

As I wrote:

I doubt many Templars will object if reduced Circle expenses mean bigger salaries and better benefits for them and their families. Or if reduced Circle expenses mean the Chantry can take on more societal projects like building universities, caring for the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disenfranchised, etc.

Even Lord Seeker Lambert-- the leader of the rogue Templar forces-- does not wish to kill the Magi hiding out at Andoral's Reach. He wants to drag them back to the Circles of Magi. They aren't nutty fanatics. They can be reasoned with. Give it a chance first.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 05:53 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

No one said this could be done overnight, to even reach that level takes time and sadly many mage leaders seemed to be too busy partying with their noses in the air to even work toward this possible solution.  If mages were trying these things and getting nowhere at all then I would say, a boycott of services and so on is in order, if that didn't work then something else, but war is a last resort not the first. It is only if war is completely unavoidable that it becomes the right decision and even then you need tatics, strategies, alliances, post war plans, et al.  

Preach!

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
It's a means to an end. Every society requires you be useful for advancement. It's sort of silly to believe otherwise. And capitalism ignores social barriers to advancement and instead values productive members of society. It does not determine their worth as human beings. Its not a spiriutal condemnation. It promotes intelligence, creativity, self-reliance. It promotes striving to better yourself. And the Magi are in great position to capitalize on this system. They have magic-- a gift no one else possess. They're educated. What social and economic injustice do they face under a Lucriosian approach? And with the money they make they can donate to communities. They can uplift others with their success.

And you still have not offered another economic approach. You leave the IRL politics out of it and try to apply it to Thedas.

This is actually why I fear lucrosians more than libertarians. As you said, mages possess an advantage over their fellow men which is why they are locked in the first place.
Economical domination would be tremendously good for the mages but not so much for non-mages who would be relegated to a lower position in society.
Mages making contributions for society outside of armed conflict is more desirable than the current world war but it's something that need to be implemented carefully.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
This is actually why I fear lucrosians more than libertarians. As you said, mages possess an advantage over their fellow men which is why they are locked in the first place.
Economical domination would be tremendously good for the mages but not so much for non-mages who would be relegated to a lower position in society.
Mages making contributions for society outside of armed conflict is more desirable than the current world war but it's something that need to be implemented carefully.

You make it sound as if mages are locked up JUST because they have an advantage.  Last I checked, it was because they are perceived as being walking bombs, which is not at all the same thing.  Obviously I don't agree with the mode of thought that says this perceived danger warrants their imprisonment, but you appear to be changing your entire stance.  Weeks ago your primary concern was that mages were dangerous because magic was inherently unstable and unpredictable.  Now you seem only to care about the idea that magic stifles technological advance and the presumed danger of mages having any political power at all.

Modifié par Silfren, 28 avril 2013 - 06:12 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

This is actually why I fear lucrosians more than libertarians. As you said, mages possess an advantage over their fellow men which is why they are locked in the first place.
Economical domination would be tremendously good for the mages but not so much for non-mages who would be relegated to a lower position in society.
Mages making contributions for society outside of armed conflict is more desirable than the current world war but it's something that need to be implemented carefully.

Well of course you need restrictions and initiatives to prevent abuses in the system. The Magi can't use a pure capitalistic system because you do have to safeguard against a Little Tevinter.  Even IRL the United States isn't a pure caplitalistic system, so this isn't impossible to ensure.

The Templars should retain their current powers also and not become weak as they are in Tevinter. The College of Magi would need to work with the heads of the Templar Order and the Clergy and keep proper accounting records to track their activity. They can't be allowed to accumulate enough capital and power as to conquer a country.

And the Circle of Magi will still largely be an academic center. You will always need mundane to operate businesses with devotion. To manage local politcs. Even Tevinter is in no hurry to get rid of its merchant class or its wealthy mundane Nobility. Consider also Nevarra with its Dragon Hunting royalty-- also home to a special group of Magi.

And among the Circles themselves, I envision this system would work in practice as a form of socialism with the money distributed rather evenly. It wouldn't facilitate rivalry and power wh*ring as the Tevinter Circle does.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 06:43 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

I didn't put words in your mouth I simply summerized what your point seems to be. Since you have only spoken negatively about it then your point so far is that it is bad.

And I disagree that running around starting wars is the anwser. Being single minded and eager for destruction is what is truly repulsive behavior.

What's repulsive is how some people endorse the slavery of the mages by the Chantry of Andraste.

Subjugating men, women, and children for being mages, and preaching to the Order of Templars that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is truly repulsive. And I find it disgusting how some people condone the enslavement of men, women, and children in this monstrous organization, where we see the authority the templars was abused in the Circle of Kirkwall to have to torture, rape, made tranquil illegally, and even kill mages under their authority. That's the kind of abuse that's liable to happen when templars have absolute and religious authority over mages who are vilified by the religious organization the templars work for. 

Anders even notes how many mages he knew committed suicide because they couldn't bare living in the Circle of Ferelden anymore. The same place the mage protagonist can condemn as an "oppressive place".

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

This is actually why I fear lucrosians more than libertarians. As you said, mages possess an advantage over their fellow men which is why they are locked in the first place.
Economical domination would be tremendously good for the mages but not so much for non-mages who would be relegated to a lower position in society.
Mages making contributions for society outside of armed conflict is more desirable than the current world war but it's something that need to be implemented carefully.

Well of course you need restrictions and initiatives to prevent abuses in the system. The Magi can't use a pure capitalistic system because you do have to safeguard against a Little Tevinter.  Even IRL the United States isn't a pure caplitalistic system, so this isn't impossible to ensure.

The Templars should retain their current powers also and not become weak as they are in Tevinter. The College of Magi would need to work with the heads of the Templar Order and the Clergy and keep proper accounting records to track their activity. They can't be allowed to accumulate enough capital and power as to conqure a country.

And the Circle of Magi will still largely be an academic center. You will always need mundane to operate businesses with devotion. To manage local politcs. Even Tevinter is in no hurry to get rid of its merchant class or its wealthy mundane Nobility. Consider also Nevarra with its Dragon Hunting royalty-- also home to a special group of Magi.

And among the Circles themselves, I envision this system would work in practice as a form of socialism with the money distributed rather evenly. It wouldn't facilitate rivalry as the Tevinter Circle does.

Well said. This seems to really be the overall best system if done cautiously and with care.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

No one said this could be done overnight, to even reach that level takes time and sadly many mage leaders seemed to be too busy partying with their noses in the air to even work toward this possible solution.  If mages were trying these things and getting nowhere at all then I would say, a boycott of services and so on is in order, if that didn't work then something else, but war is a last resort not the first. It is only if war is completely unavoidable that it becomes the right decision and even then you need tatics, strategies, alliances, post war plans, et al. 

The mages have been forced into servitude to the Chantry for nearly a millennia. Let's not pretend as though the emancipation of the Circles of Magi from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars was the "first" resort. Things haven't improved for the mages, and an entire population of men, women, and children were brutally killed because Meredith wanted to appease a hypothetical mob by killing innocent people. Even the WoT notes that the Circle of Rivain was anulled because mage families weren't seperated.

I'm not surprised that the mages finally had enough, and seperated from an organization that vilified them and subjugated them for centuries.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I didn't put words in your mouth I simply summerized what your point seems to be. Since you have only spoken negatively about it then your point so far is that it is bad.

And I disagree that running around starting wars is the anwser. Being single minded and eager for destruction is what is truly repulsive behavior.

What's repulsive is how some people endorse the slavery of the mages by the Chantry of Andraste.

Subjugating men, women, and children for being mages, and preaching to the Order of Templars that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is truly repulsive. And I find it disgusting how some people condone the enslavement of men, women, and children in this monstrous organization, where we see the authority the templars was abused in the Circle of Kirkwall to have to torture, rape, made tranquil illegally, and even kill mages under their authority. That's the kind of abuse that's liable to happen when templars have absolute and religious authority over mages who are vilified by the religious organization the templars work for. 

Anders even notes how many mages he knew committed suicide because they couldn't bare living in the Circle of Ferelden anymore. The same place the mage protagonist can condemn as an "oppressive place".

Then mage leaders should be held responsible for not working toward making the much needed changes to stop it. Subjugation of mages, mages committing suicide, the abuse of the Kirkwall circle didn't stop these mage leaders from partying up and doing nothing to end it.  But when it's time to shed some blood, they all jump on it. Repulsive.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You're both ignoring the fact that part of the Templars' entire argument is that mages have to be kept separate from the rest of the population, that they have to be contained.  You've no reason at all to think that templars would let Mages set up up shop anywhere outside the Circle, much less as a group.  Your model here assumes that templars would happily work with the idea of mages being allowed to come and go freely, disputing everything we know about templars from origins onward. 

The Magi have the Divine on their side. Justina V is working for suitable compromise, and if the Templars as a whole can be convinced greater mage freedoms are good for everyone, they will acquiescence. They have to be shown the light. You can't boil the arguement down to, "If you were a mage, you wouldn't like this arragement. Let me go!", however. You don't get far with that.

The same Divine who wanted to launch an Exalted March against Kirkwall of the mages gained autonomy from the dictator Meredith, who illegally controlled the city and had death squads murdering civilians in broad daylight?

Youth4Ever wrote...

The Magi have to appeal to what your average Templar values. Their salary. Their families. And the public they protect. That must be part of their pitch. And the Templars will of course travel with the mages where ever they go. The mages will always need watchers of some kind.

I think the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the seers would disagree with that opinion.

Youth4Ever wrote...

As I wrote:

I doubt many Templars will object if reduced Circle expenses mean bigger salaries and better benefits for them and their families. Or if reduced Circle expenses mean the Chantry can take on more societal projects like building universities, caring for the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disenfranchised, etc.

Even Lord Seeker Lambert-- the leader of the rogue Templar forces-- does not wish to kill the Magi hiding out at Andoral's Reach. He wants to drag them back to the Circles of Magi. They aren't nutty fanatics. They can be reasoned with. Give it a chance first. 

They think they have "dominion over mages by divine right" - they are fanatics. That's precisely what the Chantry looks for when they recruit members for the Order of Templars. It says as much in their codex: "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Not to mention the first thing the mother in Lothering ask for when you enter the chantry temple is a donation.

Seriously money trumps divine right period. Just look at our own world. Religious figures use religion to acquire wealth, power, and influence all the time. As far back as the Borgias and beyond. As I recall, the Dwarves aren't giving away Lyrium for free. It costs gold and all it takes is for a few Templars willing to spend more for supply and demand to increase thus raising the cost of Lyrium all around. Which means that even Templars who are not being bribed would be in need of more money to get it. Enter the Lucrosians. And it's not just Lyrium, the chantry seems to love helping orphans, you need money for that too. A nice healthy donation, the promise of a new Chantry temple, orphanages, the building of hospitals where healing mages can better offer their exclusive services.

You think the Templars and Chantry would choose dying of something a mage can cure for divine rights? Besides, imo the best way to do it is not to outright ask for freedom, but to obtain it slowly while making them believe they still hold those so called divine rights. Before long no one would even know what the heck their divine rights were.

So much win in this post. I had to quote it for truth. 

And Ser Bryant in Lothering does not confuse Divine Right with present and critical responsibility, for example. There are certainly reasonable Templars in the Order.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 avril 2013 - 07:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

Then mage leaders should be held responsible for not working toward making the much needed changes to stop it.

The Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars wield the power in the Chantry controlled Circles. Even Irving concedes that he has to make decisions based on a matter of survival as First Enchanter. This moderate leader admits: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

Hazegurl wrote...

Subjugation of mages, mages committing suicide, the abuse of the Kirkwall circle didn't stop these mage leaders from partying up and doing nothing to end it.

The mage leaders don't have any real authority. Even Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving and King Cailan openly disagreed with the decision.

Hazegurl wrote...

But when it's time to shed some blood, they all jump on it. Repulsive. 

What's repulsive is how you whitewash what the Chantry does to the mages while you vilify the men, women, and children who live in subjugation to the Chantry and the Templar Order.