615 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Sebastian is a fanatic and also an extremely compassionate man. I guess that having an "unshakable faith in the Maker" does not, automatically, make someone a bad person. Even in Kirkwall, we have accounts of two mages who believed most templars were good men doing their duty.

Which ignores the codex entry I provided about how devotion to the will of the Maker matters more than anything else. And in Kirkwall, we have examples of rapists, torturers, and murders who get away with their actions because of the power they have over mages.

MisterJB wrote...

But hey, don't let something like facts get in the way of your frothy rants about the inherent malice of the templars. Please, do continue repeteadly quoting one phrase uttered by a man who saw his friends being tortured to death by mages and apply it to every single templar.

Unless you have something to contest Cullen's argument for why the Grand Cleric had to endorse the actions of the templars, I see no reason to ignore it. Even if it shows how the Chantry uses religion to subjugate the mages.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars wield the power in the Chantry controlled Circles. Even Irving concedes that he has to make decisions based on a matter of survival as First Enchanter. This moderate leader admits: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

That's Irving's opinion. Not proven fact. And it isn't true. Even Lambert and Meredith want no such thing.

I think Irving's views carry a lot of weight, given the time he's lived in the Circle under the rule of the templars and the Chantry, and his position as First Enchanter. And we see the behavior of enough templars to see how little the plight of the mages actually matters to many of them. From the templars who carried out Meredith's Right of Annulment against an entire population of innocent people to the horror that transpired at the Circle of Rivain by the foreign templars.

Even Cullen - who the developers have said is supposed to be a moderate example of the Order - is willing to execute hundreds of men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions, and only stops Meredith when she specifically threatens Hawke. There's also the travesty of the Circle of Rivain, where foreign templars murdered hundreds of men, women, and children because the seers had contact with their families.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mage leaders don't have any real authority. Even Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving and King Cailan openly disagreed with the decision.

Maybe they would have power if they actually did their job at the College of Magi. Just sayin'. Just keeping it 100.

When the Chantry and the templars wield all the power and authority, how does that comment even remotely make any sense?

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's repulsive is how you whitewash what the Chantry does to the mages while you vilify the men, women, and children who live in subjugation to the Chantry and the Templar Order.

We don't think mistreatment by the Templars is acceptable. We want that to change that under Justina V. The strict reinforcement of mage rights is necessary and non-negotiable. But we don't thnk an avoidable war that will kill thousands is acceptable either. We want to save lives, not send more to their deaths. 

The war isn't unavoidable when it's the only way the mages can maintain autonomy from an anti-mage religious organization.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mage leaders don't have any real authority. Even Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving and King Cailan openly disagreed with the decision.

You mean that the First Enchanter actually has to share power with the Knight Commander so mages aren't allowed to do whatever they please as in Tevinter?
Opression! O-Pres-Sion! 

How is that an example of the First Enchanter sharing power when the Knight-Commander has all the authority, and overrides the wishes of the First Enchanter and the King of Ferelden when it comes to preventing the Fifth Blight from taking place?

[BlueMagitek]

It wasn't a Blight to the world at that point, especially as Duncan wouldn't admit that the Wardens could actually feel the Archdemon. ~_^

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It wasn't a Blight to the world at that point, especially as Duncan wouldn't admit that the Wardens could actually feel the Archdemon. ~_^

Duncan mentioned it was a Blight. Some characters questioned if it was a "true Blight" because they didn't see the Archdemon, but Duncan went to the Circle (on behalf of the King) to get a mage for every regiment to deal with the darkspawn, because seven was simply ludicrous.

[BlueMagitek]

And we're just going to take the word of a Grey Warden without proof of the Archdemon? Darkspawn are known to run around the Anderfels all the time, doesn't make it a Blight.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And we're just going to take the word of a Grey Warden without proof of the Archdemon? Darkspawn are known to run around the Anderfels all the time, doesn't make it a Blight.

You mean a member of an organization that has historically and consistently stopped every single Blight that took place in Thedas?

I think that would have been a wise move. Perhaps Ostagar might have gone differently if Greagoir heeded their request.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The same Divine who wanted to launch an Exalted March against Kirkwall of the mages gained autonomy from the dictator Meredith, who illegally controlled the city and had death squads murdering civilians in broad daylight?

Yes that same witch of a woman who threatened to respond to a violent mage take over of Kirkwall by putting it down hard and fast.  Horrid woman.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
The Magi have to appeal to what your average Templar values. Their salary. Their families. And the public they protect. That must be part of their pitch. And the Templars will of course travel with the mages where ever they go. The mages will always need watchers of some kind.

I think the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the seers would disagree with that opinion.

Yes and people who live in Tornado Alley, or a flood plain, or anywhere regularly visited by natural disasters  would disagree with the opinion that their's is a bad place to live.  They are wrong.  Similarly the "clean up and carry on" approach these cultures have when magic does go awry is not any better than the Circle.  In fact I'd say it's far worse because unlike those cultures when magic goes awry at a Circle everyone there has some means of protecting themselves.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Youth4Ever & Mister JB You both are knocking it out of the park.

War is certainly avoidable, the mages just don't want to avoid it. They give no thought to how life would be for them and their families post war and zero means to even support themselves as free mages cause I don't see anyone trusting a mage enough to have them around after this. I hope they have fun getting crushed in their zero resource having war and starving afterwards if the Chantry doesn't bother to show them enough mercy to let them back into the circle.

It was the templars who started the war. It was the templars who struck the first blow, and it was the templars who declared war and use violence to try and keep the mages in line.

I disagree, similar to the American Declaration of Independence the Mages declaring independence was a declaration of war without the class of calling it such. You can't spit in a man's face, flip him off, and then cry foul when he starts beating the crap out of you.

Silfren wrote...
Who says that by declaring independence, the mages are mirroring Tevinter? I'm sorry, but I don't recall their declaration mentioning anything about enacting a slave state, embracing of blood magic, or even declaring mages to have divine right to political rule.

Well we know they'll embrace blood magic because that's their only way of fighting the Templars, which will lead to them taking blood slaves because there's no way they'll be able to get enough from themselves or volunteers to keep up the war effort. Furthermore the mages of Tevinter don't claim divine right to rule, they claim practical right. They rule because they have the power to do so and non-mages don't have the power to oppose them.

Silfren wrote...
You put EVERY bit of responsibility for what happened on the mages. From what I'm standing, the templars were the ones who had a choice to respond with some other means than violence and separation from the Chantry. Why do you insist on focusing on the mages as if they carry the bulk of the responsibility?

Childish as this sounds the mages started it. Had they not unilaterally declared their independence from the Chantry there wouldn't have been a war.

Silfren wrote...
You talk about all the ways that the mages could have agitated for reform more peacefully, but you've not one word to say about the responsibility of Templars to change their restrictive, brutal methods.

Do you demand the legal system do a better job of rehabilitating criminals or do you demand criminals stop committing crimes?

Silfren wrote...
And I maintain that we have no reason to believe this whatsoever. Before deciding that mages couldn't possibly be permitted to live outside the Circles--with safeguards against magical abuses in place, of course, I have never advocated that it be otherwise--how about we actually TRY it first?

Because it isn't something you can leave to trial and error. If letting mages run free with safeguards doesn't work there's no way to re-cork the bottle.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mage leaders don't have any real authority. Even Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving and King Cailan openly disagreed with the decision.

You mean that the First Enchanter actually has to share power with the Knight Commander so mages aren't allowed to do whatever they please as in Tevinter?
Opression! O-Pres-Sion! 

How is that an example of the First Enchanter sharing power when the Knight-Commander has all the authority, and overrides the wishes of the First Enchanter and the King of Ferelden when it comes to preventing the Fifth Blight from taking place?

Combined with the Rite of Tranquility it demonstrates that the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander both, in theory, have veto power.  The two must agree in order for something to be done, Irving, Cailan, and Duncan could only convince Gregoire to allow 7.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is that an example of the First Enchanter sharing power when the Knight-Commander has all the authority, and overrides the wishes of the First Enchanter and the King of Ferelden when it comes to preventing the Fifth Blight from taking place? 

Combined with the Rite of Tranquility it demonstrates that the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander both, in theory, have veto power.  The two must agree in order for something to be done, Irving, Cailan, and Duncan could only convince Gregoire to allow 7.

Except Irving didn't even know what the evidence was against Jowan, and admitted he would do things differently if it was up to him. If Irving says he signed the Rite as a matter of survival, how does he share authority with the Knight-Commander?

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And we're just going to take the word of a Grey Warden without proof of the Archdemon? Darkspawn are known to run around the Anderfels all the time, doesn't make it a Blight.

You mean a member of an organization that has historically and consistently stopped every single Blight that took place in Thedas?

I think that would have been a wise move. Perhaps Ostagar might have gone differently if Greagoir heeded their request.

You mean the group of people that were just allowed into Ferelden because they kept getting into insidious devious plots?  Don't forget that the last Blight was centuries ago, and Darkspawn are known to make raids on the surface without it being a true Blight. 

But maybe you're right, and maybe we should trust Loghain when he claims it is the Wardens that are causing the problem.  Maybe we should trust Meredith that the Circle needs to be annulled.  Are these not people who have historically defended Ferelden and ran a Circle?  Why would we assume otherwise?

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It wasn't a Blight to the world at that point, especially as Duncan wouldn't admit that the Wardens could actually feel the Archdemon. ~_^

On the contrary, Alistair says that Duncan told people he could sense the archdemon's presence. 

[dragonflight288]

I disagree, similar to the American Declaration of Independence the Mages declaring independence was a declaration of war without the class of calling it such. You can't spit in a man's face, flip him off, and then cry foul when he starts beating the crap out of you.

Here's the events of Asunder at the end. The mages are given authority to gather together and to investigate Rhys and the murder of Pharamond, whom Lambert, the Lord High Seeker wanted to kill in the first place to hide the evidence that tranquility was now curable.

At the meeting, Fiona jumps in and tries to get all the first enchanters gathered there to vote on the circle independence while they were legally gathered. Before a single vote takes place, Lambert came in with a contingent of templars and ordered ever mage back to their circles, surrender custody of Rhys to him, and when Fiona protested saying they had every legal right to be there and had been given permission by the Divine, Lambert said the Divine's authority was no longer an issue, waved in a bunch of templars.

The mages stood up and said they had the authority. Lambert launched an attack and started killing the mages. When a First Enchanter tried to surrender without a fight, and was killed anyway, the mages at that moment saw that they had no power at all. The templars would kill them all, tranquilize them all, or imprison them all without a thought. It was do or die, as started by the templars and Lord High Seeker Lambert.

And so the mages fought back with renewed zeal, and those that survived escaped and gathered together to hold a vote. After a near massacre at a legal meeting, none of them breaking the law, the mages had no reason to side with the Chantry and they voted overwhelmingly to have independence.

After they did that, Lambert and the templars declared the Nevarran Accord to be void, and to make sure they could legally kill the mages, they separated themselves from the Chantry to start a witch hunt.

However you slice it, it was the templars who started killing the mages, and it was done before a single vote was cast. And because the vote hadn't even happened, it was the templars and the Lord High Seeker who struck the first blow and started the war. Not the mages.

[lil yonce]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Thing is, extremists DON'T shut up just because you want them to.[/quote]
[quote]I'd prefer to deal with likelihoods. It is NOT even remotely likely that Justinia could have gotten the entire Chantry to agree to reform. It is NOT likely that extremists, mages AND templars alike, would have shut up. Therefore it is stupidly pointless to talk about how these things would have made war avoidable.[/quote]
The reforms aren't designed to target them. They are designed to target the rather sensible majority, which will always have more sway practically than the much fewer in number, loud-mouthed, bloviating renegades. Should they find the majority opinion disagreeable, the extremists on both sides can kill each other outside the Circles as they wish. No skin off my back.

They Separatists shouldn't, however, simply be allowed to drag everyone else into their mess. If separation means so much to them, they should try their chances as apostates and leave compromise to others. Why should anyone die for another's ill-fated cause? Die for freedom the Magi will never see with this path? Be forced to leave the Circles when they wish to remain?

[quote]Wynne and Justinia working on compromises doesn't automatically lead to compromise. Justinia can't simply declare something and all the rest of the Chantry, Templars, and Seekers will merely fall into line. This is naive.[/quote]
I know that. I argued exactly that in a thread with TWER months ago. Of course Justina V cannot snap her fingers for the Magi cause, nor can she be their full-time mouthpiece. But she can dangle several tempting carrots in front of the Templars and Clergy. She knows she is in a position of weakness but I believe she is smart enough to overcome it.

[quote]You seem to be saying that because those things were hypothetically possible, it means that war could easily have been avoided.[/quote]

This war could have been avioded. At this point in time in the Dragon Age universe a Mage-Templar War could have been avoided. You should first exhaust all of your options before defaulting to chaos and death. Compromise was very much in the realm of possibility, and it shoud have been exercised before open warfare was decided on. I have stated should that have failed, the mages should strike, and should that fail, then wage war:

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Why choose first the option that will result in the most bloodshed and death? [/quote]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Force the Chantry to pay for them. Refuse to leave the Circles when called for civil service. And stop doing scholarly research. And should that fail, you then may have reason to call for separation-- but they didn't try any of that. They did not try a peaceful option at all. They made no attempt. They choose first the option that would without a doubt result in the most chaos and death.[/quote]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

And because Justinia V is the current Divine I chastise Circle Separatists. Separation from the Chantry is not necessary. It is during this reign that the mages can realisitically lay the groundwork for and even achieve peaceful independence. Had Separation occured during the reign of Beatrix III I could understand their revolution. In this situation I think the Separatists were rash and too hung up on wording of the Chant of Light to pay attention to Justinia's support.[/quote]
I have never, and will never, advocate war as the first option, however.

[quote]Also, the mages COULD have just declared themselves independent, with no backlash. That alone doesn't mean that the mages are declaring magical war, it means they're declaring themselves independent. From there it was the Chantry's and templars responsibility to choose a different response than war. However, if the templars responded to that declaration of indepedence with violent suppression...well, I'd say the templars are to blame for that, because NOTHING stopped them from attempting a better response.[/quote]
Declaring independence is declaring war. How do you think Britain reacted to their colonies declaring their independence?

I find the decision-making process of the College of Magi, to be heavily flawed. The Mages, specifically Fiona, pressured a situation to which they knew the end result, and then criticize the result they had a hand in orchestrating. 

Essentially, The Mages spit in the face of the Templars/Chantry by holding their "Separation-Decision" conclave at the White Spire in Val Reoyeaux-- the seat of Chantry/Templar power-- get punched in the face by the Templars, and say, "See, I told you they were going to punch us! They're such bad guys! We must separate!"
 
SMH.

[quote]That's what COULD have happened, and war could have been avoided.  It didn't, it wasn't likely to have happened, and war was not avoidable, because we all know that templars wouldn't respond to such a declaration without hostility.[/quote]
The Magi shouldn't have made such a proposal. That is not what the conclave was called to discuss. It was called to discuss Phramond's reasearch. The Magi violated the terms of the meeting. Fiona pressured a vote on a thoughtfully withheld topic of discussion. The last Grand Enchanter never allowed such a discussion or vote to be case because he was smart and knew the serious repercussions. 

[quote]All the responsibility is being heaped onto the mages for what has happened, with no acknowledgement given to the fact that they have very little real power.[/quote]
If they did their jobs at the College of Magi, their powerbase wouldn't be so eroded.

[quote]The point is made several times that the bones thrown them regarding self-governance are illusory. The Chantry has only to say 'no' to whatever they say, and bring its military strength to bear should the mages take issue with it. The templars have held ALL the power in this dynamic, for the past nine hundred years.[/quote]
And what excuse do they have for Justinia V's reign? Justinia understands her ideals are at odds with the historical objectives and modus operandi of the Chantry as a whole, the Seekers of Truth, and the Templar Order, yet, she's publicaly rhapsodized Circle reform. She has gone to great lengths to better their situation-- looking into reversing the Rite of Tranquility. They have more support now than they they likely have ever had, and they squander it. SMH.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 04:11 .

[lil yonce]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think Irving's views carry a lot of weight, given the time he's lived in the Circle under the rule of the templars and the Chantry, and his position as First Enchanter.

He's a cynical old man and his opinion means little to me.

When the Chantry and the templars wield all the power and authority, how does that comment even remotely make any sense?

If they did their jobs at the College of Magi, their powerbase wouldn't be so eroded. That's rather obvious.

The war isn't unavoidable when it's the only way the mages can maintain autonomy from an anti-mage religious organization.

 

Do you know what the Divine said of the mages? How she interpreted the Chant of Light?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 01:15 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You talk about all the ways that the mages could have agitated for reform more peacefully, but you've not one word to say about the responsibility of Templars to change their restrictive, brutal methods.

Do you demand the legal system do a better job of rehabilitating criminals or do you demand criminals stop committing crimes?

I demand both, actually.  The legal system extremely flawed, and there are many laws that I consider to be stupid and/or unjust, that make criminals out of people who are NOT causing any harm to any individuals or to society as a whole.  Of course I think criminals shouldn't commit crime, but this doesn't mean I think that the legal system itself is above criticism and shouldn't undergo some significant reforms.

Likewise, I'm not advocating that mages go on a rampage and hold themselves above laws that all decent people are expected to follow.  I do think mages should be held to a baseline of civilized behavior...but I ALSO expect the templars to be beholden to the same rule, and I'm certainly not going to condemn mages for behaving badly when they are pushed into that behavior out of self-defense.  Nor will I act surprised or indignant.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 avril 2013 - 01:25 .

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It wasn't a Blight to the world at that point, especially as Duncan wouldn't admit that the Wardens could actually feel the Archdemon. ~_^

On the contrary, Alistair says that Duncan told people he could sense the archdemon's presence. 

No he didn't. He didn't tell anyone about the Grey Warden taint or their ability to sense darkspawn. He said he felt it. He had a feeling. That's different.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It wasn't a Blight to the world at that point, especially as Duncan wouldn't admit that the Wardens could actually feel the Archdemon. ~_^

On the contrary, Alistair says that Duncan told people he could sense the archdemon's presence. 

No he didn't. He didn't tell anyone about the Grey Warden taint or their ability to sense darkspawn. He said he felt it. He had a feeling. That's different.

Er.  He didn't say "I feel like the archdemon is probably around here."  He said "I feel the archdemon's presence."  You'd have a point if we had reason to believe Duncan said the former, but we don't.  He tried to tell people that he could sense the archdemon. 

According to Alistair, Duncan told people that he felt the archdemon's presence. Those words exactly.  You're not seriously trying to tell me that if Duncan had told people he could sense the archdemon's presence, rather than telling them he could feel it, that the outcome would have been different?  Alistair says this himself: His dialogue explaining to the Warden what the dreams mean and how they can sense darkspawn is HOW he got around to telling you that Duncan tried to tell people he sensed the archdemon's presence.  Clearly, Duncan DID try, and I think Duncan was a smart enough man to know better than to just say "I feel it."  I'm sure he probably said something about Wardens being able to sense darkspawn, to try to make his point. 

He shouldn't have to spell it out for them how and why he can do this. I'd think, given the nature of Blights, any time a Grey Warden has something to say about the matter, people have an obligation to sit up and pay attention. 

But if Duncan's saying that he can feel the archdemon's presence isn't good enough for people, why would any explanations of how or why have made a difference?  It isn't like he's in a position to prove his point, so people will have to take him at his word whether he offers one or not. 

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Er.  He didn't say "I feel like the archdemon is probably around here."  He said "I feel the archdemon's presence."  You'd have a point if we had reason to believe Duncan said the former, but we don't.  He tried to tell people that he could sense the archdemon.  

According to Alistair, Duncan told people that he felt the archdemon's presence. Those words exactly.  You're not seriously trying to tell me that if Duncan had told people he could sense the archdemon's presence, rather than telling them he could feel it, that the outcome would have been different?  Alistair says this himself: His dialogue explaining to the Warden what the dreams mean and how they can sense darkspawn is HOW he got around to telling you that Duncan tried to tell people he sensed the archdemon's presence.  Clearly, Duncan DID try, and I think Duncan was a smart enough man to know better than to just say "I feel it."  I'm sure he probably said something about Wardens being able to sense darkspawn, to try to make his point. 

He shouldn't have to spell it out for them how and why he can do this. I'd think, given the nature of Blights, any time a Grey Warden has something to say about the matter, people have an obligation to sit up and pay attention. 

But if Duncan's saying that he can feel the archdemon's presence isn't good enough for people, why would any explanations of how or why have made a difference?  It isn't like he's in a position to prove his point, so people will have to take him at his word whether he offers one or not. 

They tell no one about the Joining Ritual. How is anyone supposed to know what truly meant by, "I feel its presence."

And no one believed it to be a true blight.

Futhermore, in the Human Noble Origin, Duncan mentions something along the lines of, "No Archdemon has been sighted yet my Lord, but with all my soul, I fear this is a true Blight." to which Arl Howe responds, "I wish we shared your faith. I suppose we shall see for ourselves once we arrive at the King's camp." That is the sentiment. Everyone is skeptical. We can even ask Alistair why is so skeptical. No one takes the word of the Wardens at face value.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 01:45 .

[Silfren]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Er.  He didn't say "I feel like the archdemon is probably around here."  He said "I feel the archdemon's presence."  You'd have a point if we had reason to believe Duncan said the former, but we don't.  He tried to tell people that he could sense the archdemon.  

According to Alistair, Duncan told people that he felt the archdemon's presence. Those words exactly.  You're not seriously trying to tell me that if Duncan had told people he could sense the archdemon's presence, rather than telling them he could feel it, that the outcome would have been different?  Alistair says this himself: His dialogue explaining to the Warden what the dreams mean and how they can sense darkspawn is HOW he got around to telling you that Duncan tried to tell people he sensed the archdemon's presence.  Clearly, Duncan DID try, and I think Duncan was a smart enough man to know better than to just say "I feel it."  I'm sure he probably said something about Wardens being able to sense darkspawn, to try to make his point. 

He shouldn't have to spell it out for them how and why he can do this. I'd think, given the nature of Blights, any time a Grey Warden has something to say about the matter, people have an obligation to sit up and pay attention. 

But if Duncan's saying that he can feel the archdemon's presence isn't good enough for people, why would any explanations of how or why have made a difference?  It isn't like he's in a position to prove his point, so people will have to take him at his word whether he offers one or not. 
[/quote]
They tell no one about the Joining Ritual. How is anyone supposed to know what truly meant by, "I feel its presence."

And no one believed it to be a true blight.[/quote]

That no one believed it to be a true Blight isn't an "and", it is the core problem: Duncan was telling them that it was a Blight, and he's the one who would know.

Just being told by a Grey Warden that he can sense the archdemon should be enough.  Why are you trying to make this complicated?  Grey Wardens are the world's foremost experts on darkspawn and Blights, and without them, the world would've been destroyed four times over.  There is no good reason NOT to take a Grey Warden at his word when he tells you that it is not just a darkspawn raid, but a Blight looming on the horizon.  [/quote]

Modifié par Silfren, 29 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

That no one believed it to be a true Blight isn't an "and", it is the core problem: Duncan was telling them that it was a Blight, and he's the one who would know.

Just being told by a Grey Warden that he can sense the archdemon should be enough.  Why are you trying to make this complicated?  Grey Wardens are the world's foremost experts on darkspawn and Blights, and without them, the world would've been destroyed four times over.  There is no good reason NOT to take a Grey Warden at his word when he tells you that it is not just a darkspawn raid, but a Blight looming on the horizon. 

Why is there a Civil War raging during a Blight? Why does Loghian abandon most of the army at Ostagar? Politics. If someone believes they can outmaneuver the darkspawn or that something more immediate is threating their liveihood, politics will rule the day. You have to spend the majority of the game convincing everyone to band together to face the darkspawn and trust the Wardens. They don't just drop what they're doing and fight at your word. Its not written in stone by Ostagar that this is a Blight, so its not that serious to anyone in charge. They need something concrete. Not the word of an Order trying to get back into Ferelden's good graces with a glory romp. That's the perception.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 02:12 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

That no one believed it to be a true Blight isn't an "and", it is the core problem: Duncan was telling them that it was a Blight, and he's the one who would know.

Just being told by a Grey Warden that he can sense the archdemon should be enough.  Why are you trying to make this complicated?  Grey Wardens are the world's foremost experts on darkspawn and Blights, and without them, the world would've been destroyed four times over.  There is no good reason NOT to take a Grey Warden at his word when he tells you that it is not just a darkspawn raid, but a Blight looming on the horizon. 

Why is there a Civil War raging during a Blight? Why does Loghian abandon most of the army at Ostagar? Politics. If someone believes they can outmanuver the darkspawn or that something more immediate is threating their liveihood, politics will rule the day. You have to spend the majority of the game convincing everyone to band together to face the darkspawn and trust the Wardens. They don't just drop what they're doing and fight at your word. Its not written in stone by Ostagar that this is a Blight, so its not that serious to anyone in charge. They need something concrete. Not the word of an Order trying to get back into Ferelden's good graces with a glory romp. That's the perception.

All that crap is off-topic.  Duncan DID tell people they were facing a Blight.  Not taking him at his word was a bloody stupid thing to do.  In Ostagar, the only two people we see doubting Duncan are Loghain and Cailan, and it looks like Loghain was doing his best to keep Cailan from believing that there was a Blight.  Loghain was the one who had distrusted the Wardens in years past, because he saw them as Orlesians first and foremost. 

I'm aware of what went down and why.  But that doesn't change the fact that refusing to take a Grey Warden seriously is a stupid, stupid thing to do.

[lil yonce]

He didn't tell a soul the Grey Wardens in-take darkspawn blood through a magical ritual. That's the problem. He should have at least the King and Loghain so they'd know they weren't being manipulated. When he says he feels the Archdemon it doesn't amount to more than a feeling he has a Warden-Commander desiring to be accepted and important to a country that kicked out his Order forever ago. #Politcs.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 avril 2013 - 02:22 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

He didn't tell a soul the Grey Wardens in-take darkspawn blood through a magical ritual. That's the problem. He should have at least the King and Loghain so they'd know they weren't being manipulated. When he says he feels the Archdemon it doesn't amount to more than a feeling he has a Warden-Commander desiring to be accepted and important to a country that kicked out his Order forever ago. #Politcs.

He shouldn't have had to.  Again, we're told by Alistair that Duncan specifically said he could feel the archdemon's presence; which is a different statement than just saying he feels certain they are facing a Blight.  This is precisely the same thing as saying he could sense it.  Since we hear Duncan's statement about believing it's a Blight, this comes after what Alistair refers to, so Duncan has clearly been trying to convince people for some time.  And Duncan is not stupid, so I don't believe he wasn't as specific as Alistair said he was. 

Even if Duncan had spelled everything out about HOW he could feel the archdemon's presence and WHY, it would STILL have amounted to taking him at his word.  Duncan could tell them anything he wanted about how the Wardens have the ability to feel the archdemon's presence...he's not in a position to prove it, and they aren't in a position to investigate it.  So there is no good reason not to accept that a Grey Warden knows more about Blights than anyone else alive.  The only issue here was Loghain.  Cailan was only too happy with the Grey Wardens, and it's quite likely he could have been convinced. 

When a Grey Warden tells you that a Blight is looming on the horizon, and with your own eyes you can SEE the corroborating evidence of suddenly a LOT more darkspawn roaming about the place than you've ever heard of before, it behooves you to set your suspicions aside.  Knowing the extent of the danger that Blights pose, choosing to believe that the Grey Warden...who knows a helluva lot more about Blights than you do...is mistaken, is tantamount to suicide.  Not to mention all the other lives you endanger through your idiocy.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 avril 2013 - 03:17 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...
Duncan DID tell people they were facing a Blight.  Not taking him at his word was a bloody stupid thing to do.

I do agree that not taking a Grey Warden at his word was stupid. However, what ticked me off about Duncan was the fact that he did not fully explain how he knew, or give any tangible reason to be believed. He doesn't have to explain the full ritual unless he has to but he could have at least said, that the reason why Grey Wardens are needed during Blights is because we sense the presence of the Archdemon we know when one is nearby or not and I can sense the Archdemon is active. Duncan never spells it out clearly like that at all. Even the Warden can ask Alistair "why Duncan just didn't tell everyone that" and naturally Alistair defends Duncan by saying he did say it because he said he feels this is a Blight. Well no, Alistair. That's not enough. Saying you feel it is a Blight is not the same as explaining how you've reached that conclusion. That is only info you would know if you were a Grey Warden. Pretty much Duncan was being cryptic and not explaining things completely so as not to scare away potential recruits.