This is back from page 6, but we Youth4ever and I never finished our discussion, and I'd hate to let her have the last word on it.
[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...
[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
They should have a standing army The Red Irons mercenary force isn't the only one, as we ran afoul the Winters in Act 1. There's the city guard, and we know that the nobles of their own forces as well, as part of the Red Irons quest in Act 1 to kill that one noble, the force sent ahead of you were destroyed by Harriman's men.[/quote]
Mercenary groups won't let you use their men without it benefiting them substantially. In that regard they are no better than the Templars, and worse you'd be dealing with a roughneck or criminal element. You would rely on that to protect your city? You would associate your city with such an element? You think the Nobility will agree to that? And I did not see them anywhere in evidence during the Qunari attack. The Templars have impact. And if the private forces of the Nobility were truly substanial I suspect the City Guard would not need to conscript during wartime.
While combined the groups you mentioned could be formidable they simply are not the templars. They are not a large military trained warrior order with impressive weapons and armor. They also have Chantry clout-- attacking the Templars is attaking the Chantry as a whole and they have a vested interest in Kirkwall. Another advantage.[/quote]
The free marches aren't a unified nation. It's a series of
city-states similar to ancient greece. Starkhaven and Kirkwall are two
completely different kingdoms within the same continent. Kirkwall
doesn't exactly have the resources to maintain a standing army.
The templars are drug addicts. They suffer lyrium withdrawal and it may result in insanity, a loss in understanding of the world around you, and even death.
The templars are an army, loyal to the Chantry first (until they decided it was more important to slaughter mages who declared independence) than to the country they live in, and they have far more political power than they should have, and the lyrium needed to keep each and every one of them on their fix is daunting and expensive. Gather the mercenary groups and the soldiers of each noble house and the city guard, and you'll have an army, that may not be as well trained or as well equipped, but will ultimately be far more reliable in the long run, without the need for lyrium.
Were I the Qunari Arishok, and I were fighting the templars, the very first thing I would do would be to take all the lyrium from the Chantry stores, and either use it to make explosives or destroy it and keep the templars from getting it. The templars would in short order be suffering mass lyrium withdrawal as the Chantry controls the lyrium trade.
Hardly reliable as an army. In order to pay for lyrium from smugglers, the templars would be forced to raze the countryside for resources. Most would soon go insane or die from the withdrawal alone.
[quote]
[quote]The templars are simply the
largest force in Kirkwall. Not the only one. In my opinion, they shouldn't be the largest because their duties are supposed to be strictly magic related and shouldn't be involved in politics in any way, shape or form.[/quote]
They are large in number due to Kirkwall's Veil situation. Thin Veil. More Lyrium exposure to the population. More mages. More Templars.[/quote]
And Meredith consistently working to seize political power. Even before Act 1, when Hawke gets off the boat, Meredith is calling the shots and the guard says he doesn't know what would happen if the Viscount ever went against what Meredith wanted.
And we don't know that lyrium creates mages, or a thin veil. We know lyrium exposure is very dangerous to non-dwarves and can be deadly at times, and we know through the developers that mages have an easier time using magic as the veil thins, but the thinner the veil, the chances of abominations and demons coming through of their own volition increases. There is no in-game or book evidence that suggests that a thin veil actually creates mages.
[quote]
[quote]So was the templar force. They weren't prepared. Neither were the mages or the mercenary bands. Hawke, Meredith and the templars had to regroup before heading to High Town to rescue the Nobles.[/quote]
Who is on the verge of retaking the Keep? The Templars and Mages or the City Guard? Their base is in Hightown yet the City Guard is no where to be found. The Templars came from the Gallows and were steadily progressing towards the Keep.[/quote]
While the Qunari were holding all of High Town hostage, where the city guard was already located. And the guard were taken by surprise, the templars, being stationed on
an island outside of the main city, could gather their forces, organize,
and launch an attack themselves where the Guard could not.
It's quite likely that because the templars weren't there, that allowed them to gather the numbers to charge. The mages as an organiztion isn't allowed outside of the Gallows, so they wouldn't be a standing army ready to charge the Qunari lines. The chantry would never allow it.
Although I would like to know what Orsino an his entorage were doing in High Town themselves. Looking for Quentin to bring him to justice? Purchasing supplies for the Circle? I honestly have no idea.
Don't forget that Orsino single handedly can take care of the brigade of qunari at the keep, and draws them away for Hawke to sneak in. Imagine what an army of mages could do in that situation.
[quote]
[quote]You're not giving the guards enough credit. Let's face the fact. Aveline went there, knowing the possibility that things could go south, that's why she brought Hawke, but she, and the rest of Kirkwall, were still surprised at the attack by Kossith soldiers, each one capable of going weeks without food or drink and still be capable of fighting. Qunari don't waste time when they decide on a course of action. They simply do it. They had spent so long not fighting (except when the Chantry went out of its way to provoke them) that the city itself, while knowing it could happen, were utterly unprepared for it.[/quote]
Knowing the history of Kirkwall they should not be surprised at the ferocity or suddenness of a Qunari invasion.[/quote]
And everyone was taken off guard anyway.
[quote]
[quote]The Templars didn't prevent it either, and they're the most numerous armed force. And Meredith was already involved with politics, as explained by that guard before Hawke even enters the city. She calls the shots and the Viscount sort of went along in an effort to keep the peace.[/quote]
She does not call the shots. If she could run the city through a Viscount she wouldn't have needed to assume the title herself. She twists Dumar's arm and strengthens the Order's overall power and authority. He accomplishes nothing because he has Meredith on one side and the Nobility on the other. Dumar's approach to the Qunari situation is entirely his own. There is no evidence Meredith was instructing him in that regard. Additionally, the Templars are stationed in the Gallows and not in Hightown. They are not the first line of defense. Aveline should have been better prepared. [/quote]
Right. Let me quote the guard when Hawke first arrives. The guard says no more refugees were allowed in Kirkwall, by Knight-Commander Meredth's orders. Hawke questions this, saying Knight-Commander is a templar title. The guard shrugs and says "Sure. But I don't know what would happen if Viscount Dumar went against something Meredith wanted."
She was already running the show. She was simply doing it from behind the scenes. It's not until Act 3 that she's completely open about it.
[quote]
[quote]I do like the mages, but I recognize the templars faults and I stand by my statements past and present that Meredith caused all the blood mage problems in Act 3, because in the 7 years before it, we what, faced only 5-6 blood mages total? That sounds like a statistic normality, and if the templars did their jobs, Hawke wouldn't have had to fight them, as it seemed only Emerick and Thrask were trying to do anything about the situation.[/quote]
She doesn't force mages to use blood magic. The majority of mages tied to
The Last Holdout and On The Loose return to the Circle without confrontation. The mages that turn to blood magic should be held accountable for their actions. Does she force Huon to murder his wife with blood magic? Does she force Evelina to summon demons? No those mages are weak-willed renegades-- the very reason the Circle exists.[/quote]
She doesn't. She simply forces at worst, or allows the extremists she promotes like Ser Kerras, Ser Alrik and Ser Mettin to create situations where the mage will either get raped and illegally tranquilized, killed on trumped up charges, or fight back and justify being killed anyway. She never investigates her templars and gives them near unlimited power over mages, which they proceed to abuse horrifically and the mages can't do anything about it. Blood magic becomes a desperate resort, as it's the only kind of magic the templars cannot nullify.
Meredith allowed Alrik to do what he did. It's simply not possible she didn't know what he was up to. Thrask says that if Kerras killed all the mages in Act 1 if they haven't surrendered by the time he showed up (meaning he had no intention of using negotiation) then Meredith would consider it perfectly justified. She promotes Ser Metten to head her death squad in Act 3 and he goes around killing non-mages in broad daylight, relatives of mages or people who are sympathetic to mages.
Were I a mage and a templar was trying to rape me, I would use blood magic to defend myself with, knowing I'd probably die but I'd rather die on my feet than a slow death bent over for a templar sadist.
And if the templars actions drive mages like Evelina, a mage who turned herself in after escaping the Blight in exchange for aid for the orphans she was taking care of (whom the Chantry immediately dropped and did nothing to help as far as I could see) then the Chantry and the templars are responsible for driving her insane in the first place.
She still needed killing because she was a danger to herself and to everyone else, but that's not entirely her own fault.
[quote]
[quote]I don't think you give the guard, the noble's armed forces, or the mercenary bands enough credit, and the templar forces too much at times, but you seem like a reasonable debater.[/quote]
Templars rule. Mercenaries drool.
[/quote]
My Hawke begs to differ.
He was THE mercenary!
[quote]
[quote]I disagree about Meredith and Loghain being the same. They both claim to have the best of intentions, but Loghain didn't illegally seize power in any way. His daughter, the queen, made him regent.[/quote]
He all but forced her.[/quote]
Any evidence of this?
I thought so as well when I first played, but I've since looked over all the events of Origins, looked through the Codex entries AND listened to every single rumor Bodahn and the innkeepers would tell as we progressed through the story. I find a lot more evidence of political manuevering by the Bannorn and Howe than by Loghain.
[quote]
[quote]He had crappy supporters like his messenger who kept calling him King Loghain in the Frostback Mountains and Howe was just scum, but Loghain himself...the only illegal things I can think of him doing was removing Jowan from the templars to poison Eamon, and selling the elves into slavery.[/quote]
Treason?[/quote]
When did he do that? He called a retreat on a battle that looked like it was already lost. Cailan was on the front lines, and the overhead showed more darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds. Cailan left a highly defensible location in search of glory, which he made no secret of in camp. Loghain repeatedly warned him not to be on the front lines, and that it was foolish to rely completely on the Grey Wardens.
Question the events at Ostagar at the Landsmeet, and you don't win any followers.
[quote]
[quote]Meredith illegally seized power, illegally kept Kirkwall from running itself, had a templar Death Squad led by Ser Mettin killing non-mages in broad daylight, regularly hired extremists and sadists while the good and decent templars were left with grunt work, tried going over Elthina's head to get approval for the Right of Annulment, and called it on the most paper-thin technicalities when she was able to do it legally, and no longer sought to search the tower as she had been demanding not 15 seconds earlier.[/quote]
And Loghain kept Anora from ruling, arrogantly dared the Nobility to challenge his flimsy claim to leadership, plunged the country into civil war during a blight, had press gangs forcing men into service, made a selfish sadist--Arl Howe his chief partner in crime. He didn't go over anyone's head to have things his way-- he just murdered his king, the army, and its allies. He blocked potential allies in Orlesian Grey Wardens. Sold elves into slavery. Tortured nobles. And the list goes on because he felt he was doing the right thing. His crimes are far greater than Meredith's.
They are so the same.
[/quote]
The bannorn mustered their armies first. He didn't keep Anora from ruling, he was out in the field constantly. If anything, I think Howe did more to keep Anora from ruling than Loghain did. For all we know, as there is very little evidence on what was happening in the palace while we're building an army, Anora could have been grieving for Cailan and gave her father the go-ahead to take care of things while she mourned.
Wynne in Asunder admits that she was hasty to denounce Uldred and his support of Loghain, and we as the Wardens never really gain much perspective on things from Loghain's view because....we're not Loghain and we're in a completely different location, working towards defeating the blight while he is working to try and keep the land united while the bannorn are beginning to fight over the power vacuum that grew from Cailan's death.
And Loghain never tortured nobles. That was Howe. You can't pin the actions of Howe on Loghain as they are completely different people. Should Loghain kept a tighter leash on Howe? Most definitely. Is he directly responsible for Howe's actions? Nope.
Difference between Meredth and Loghain and why I hold Meredith to a higher standard than Loghain when it comes to dealing and investigating underlings is pretty straight forward. Loghain was fighting a civil war and was constantly out in the field. Meredith was living in a city-state more or less at peace, promoted all these extremists herself, and was on location at all times. There's no way she couldn't have known as she was right there, wheras Loghain has a reasonable excuse of not knowing because he was out fighting all the time.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 30 avril 2013 - 02:37 .
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