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[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Christ, Meredith's problem is that anyone who holds a different opinion of her is automatically either a blood mage or under the control of a blood mage. No, they can't possibly have come to this decision of their own accord. Nope, a blood mage is responsible! Kill the Mages!

This is Kirkwall, so... yeah, I can't really fault Meredith for Blood Mage paranoia when they literally rain from the cities while abominations crawl up from the ground.

[lil yonce]

@TWER; Bro, you know I can't respond to your post because you still haven't addressed mine from several pages ago. I think it includes your topic of interest should you wish to read my stance regarding it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 avril 2013 - 02:45 .

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Christ, Meredith's problem is that anyone who holds a different opinion of her is automatically either a blood mage or under the control of a blood mage. No, they can't possibly have come to this decision of their own accord. Nope, a blood mage is responsible! Kill the Mages!

This is Kirkwall, so... yeah, I can't really fault Meredith for Blood Mage paranoia when they literally rain from the cities while abominations crawl up from the ground.

Which only happened AFTER she became defacto Viscount.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 30 avril 2013 - 02:50 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

@Hazegurl; Guess what I just equipped on my DA:OA Warden-Mage? A belt called the Lucrosian's Silken Cord. 
xD Make her Grand Enchater! Do it now!

I don't think I've ever managed to get one...at least not that I remember(haven't played in a while)...I guess my Warden-Mage can't be First Enchanter. <_< But on the bright side, my girl would lay low until all the warmongering idiots are killed. Besides she was smart enough to ask for a title and some land at the end of Origins, not to mention she's banging a King on the side, so it's all good.

Now that I think about it, my Warden-Mage was a Lucrosian before I even knew what they were lol!

[TEWR]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Not as recently as Fereldens. The Ferelden barbarian heritage is recent enough for the country to be considered uncivilized by older nations and established peoples. The warrior tradition thrives in Ferelden but it is absent from Kirkwall.[/quote]

I think when your life is on the line, all people have the capacity to be soldiers and warriors, regardless of lineage.


[quote]And I don't view Kirkwall enforcing any such law in-game.[/quote]

Not saying Kirkwall did that. Not saying it didn't either.

Just saying that wars fought with commoners conscripted is not as hopeless a venture as you paint it as. Kirkwall's military significance grants it advantages that cancel out a lot of the inexperience of an army newly formed.

[quote]There is no evidence Kirkwall would win battles with a civilian army regardless of natural defenses. The people do not train. The City-Guard small.[/quote]

The City Guard is large. Not as large as the Templars, sure, but still large.

[quote] Kirkwall cannot maintain a proper standing army nor a formidable civilian army. If it could it would have done so. The city cannot have its cake and eat it too.[/quote]

Kirkwall is an expansive trading hub, which means money is in ample supply. Deals are made routinely in the city. Money means that they can maintain an army. It means they can buy food, weapons, armor, barracks, etc.


[quote]IIRC Orsino runs off screen. The cutscene does not feature a showdown with the Qunari. He simply lures them away from the Keep. He and his mages in Hightown were decimated. If Bethany is not present Orsino is the sole survivor and that very much seems like a stroke of luck.[/quote]

He fires a fireball into the group by launching a sneak attack that decimates more then half of their forces, to which the remainder charge at him as he whittles them down further.

He does not run away. He slowly steps backwards.

And as you find out, he took on the Qunari in Hightown on his own and told his charges to flee, saying that they should let the Qunari take him prisoner. The man was willing to sacrifice his own life for that of his people, knowing full well that either death or sewn lips awaited him. When things went badly for him, his charges fought because they're that loyal to him. They lost their lives in the process, and Orsino was forgotten in the aftermath (and Bethany too) so that's why they survived.


[quote]The game often exaggerates enemy numbers as a consequence of wave combat.[/quote]

To discount that out of hand is not wise. It's gameplay reflecting the lore we are told, not gameplay trying to be equal to the lore.


[quote]Of course Meredith fought Qunari. She and her Templars were in Hightown before Hawke arrived. It is obviously inferred.[/quote]

I see no Qunari corpses save for one, that is shown to have been the Guardsmen's work. If they took down any Qunari, I wouldn't have fought them throughout the upper levels. Or I would have seen evidence.

[quote]??? I saw no Templar and Meredith had not yet come to the merchant stalls.[/quote]

Rewatch the cutscene where she appears. When she looks up at the path leading to the Viscount's Keep, you can clearly see a Templar back there.

Here. Pause it and rewind it back to the 9:20-9:23 mark.

[quote]That argument only goes so far. A handful of Templars can battle their groups with success. Thugs can battle their numbers with success. The City-Guard is thoroughly inadequate.[/quote]

1) The Templars are not shown to have battled any Qunari beyond the reinforcements that come in after the ones in front of the Keep are dealt with, and they have Orsino who managed to take down an entire group by himself on their side (and is also capable of healing, as he displays with Bethany).

2) The thugs can't deal with the Qunari on their own. They lose.


[quote]The first Qunari invasion of the Free Marches did not end in Kirkwall. They attempted to take an isolated Starkhaven but despite a vicious and sustained attack the city never fell to Qunari rule. Their superiority is not boundless. The Kirkwall City-Guard is simply that pathetic.[/quote]

The assault on Kirkwall was a sneak attack showing "an unparalleled level of sorcery". What that means is that decades prior, the Qunari were not known for their magical strength. They abhorred magic. But when they saw the advantages it could give them in war (since it was Thedas' strength) they began to cultivate it and used it in Kirkwall.

And it's safe to say that even now, they've been strengthening their Mages' power, albeit slowly then Thedas does.

[quote]A large scale riot subdued by Templar force would result in unthinkable bloodshed.[/quote]

Which, if it formed, is necessary. It's not supposed to be pretty. Politics is not about being pretty. The people would see they have no shot and then disperse.

Meredith's course of action is not only ugly, it's unnecessary.

[quote]You cannot turn on a city that is new to Templar rule. You have to appease the sizable population that will riot againt the mages and revolt against you should you do otherwise.[/quote]*dons Sten hat*

No.

First, she has made no effort to get the city on her side. She's been antagonizing them from day one.

Second, if they turn on you first by launching a riot then you put it down.

[quote]Meredith invokes the RoA foremost on the absolutely legitimate suspicion of widespread Circle corruption. The city riot is an extra.[/quote]

The city riot is a hypothetical that has no basis, and she's ready to raze the entire Circle to the ground and build a new one for the wrong reasons.

No Meredith, making mages "know fear" and that they bear a "cancer" is not the way to rebuild. Learning from a tragedy and making sure it doesn't happen again is the right way to go, which includes admitting your own faults in the problem.


[quote]??? 300 citizens? And exactly how do you know which mage is a blood mage waiting for a moment of Templar weakness to attack and which isn't?[/quote]

I don't. But if they show themselves to be criminals, they and they alone shall be punished. If they escape, a Templar's duty is to bear that weight.

You choose the course of action that is right at the time, which here is protecting the Mages from a mob that might form.


[quote]She subdued a small disenfranchised minority. Not the city of Denerim.[/quote]

She put down a riot that had started because Elves from all over the nation -- possibly Thedas, can't recall -- flocked to the Alienage due to a greater chance of better rights that Anora was granting, which led to the city being overcrowded and short on supplies like food, since much of Ferelden's farmland was tainted by the Darkspawn.

As a result of the lack of food, the city Elves rioted. She had to put down a sizable population within the city.

Now I personally headcanon that she tried all the alternatives to bloodshed that she could without coddling to the mob, and when those failed and a riot broke out she had to do the ugly thing. But that's only my headcanon. What I said above this paragraph, however, is what Anora actually did because we're told in-game. She put down a riot due to an overcrowded population that caused them to be short on food.

[quote]Asunder says differently. The moment the mages entered town a powerful and vicious "hang 'em from a tree" sentiment ruled the atmosphere and they had no direct involment whatsoever in the assasination attempt on the Divine. Extensive magical training and Enchanter status did not matter in the slightest to a gang of weaponless men in the tavern.[/quote]

Yeah, well, that's a lone group of people near the seat of Chantry power. Not comparable to a city-state that has progressively been growing to want to oust the Knight-Commander who's abusing her power in both stations and is oppressing the populus.

And besides, if a mob did form, the Templars' duty is to protect the Mages from mundane threats. Which means putting down the mob, to which when they saw that they had no shot in hell they'd run away.

[quote]
The city will riot. That was made clear.[/quote]

No, it wasn't. The hypothetical musings of a woman possessed by a broken and thus more potent lyrium artifact that she's warped into a sword does not count for jack ****.


[quote]I'm sufficiently familiar with those examples and they illustrate my intent.African-Americans in LA burned their own neighborhoods also. Memorably in 1992. That is how angry they were.

The assassination of a highly respected and adored religious figure. A moderate in a land of extreme viewpoints. The minority defender. An advocate of non-violent solutions. The rock of the community. There are many similarites and that is why I use the example. A riot was inevitable.[/quote]

But MLK's actions and the actions of his supporters were making a difference. Elthina's were not. Martin Luther King's actions were helping society. Elthina's inactions were making things worse.

Saying a riot was inevitable when there's no proof of that other then what people believe is disingenuous.


[quote]The man explains his reasoning and it has nothing to do with Kirkwall. "I don't care about history. I care about Jean-Petit. His farmhouse got burned down two weeks ago, with him in it. You know who done it? His daughter, a spiteful little thing the templars had to drag off before she killed anyone else. You think your magic impresses me? Impresses anyone? How are they innocent? It wasn't just Jean-Petit. Last year there was the man in Val Bresins who turned into a demon in the middle of the marketplace! The hedge witch who blighted the Arlans crop! The Wickens boy who talked to ghosts-- you know it was him that was killing our poor dogs! How long are we going to stand by and let this evil fester? The Maker would not have it."
[/quote]

Fair enough, Kirkwall is irrelevant. But it's lovely how the Chantry doesn't do anything to stop people from believing such nonsense.

[quote]
It was three mages. Wynne, Rhys, Adrian and all of them Enchanters. The men were more than willing to kill Ser Evangeline to advance on them. Evangeline disprupted the mages channeling mana and threw Adrian to the floor and still the situation was not sufficiently calmed. Wynne's final plea disperses the mob.[/quote]

Ah, you see! Evangeline does her duty and protects the Mages, while Wynne's able to calmly get them to disperse.

Boom, that's how you handle a situation like Kirkwall. Mobilize the entire Templar army, have them stand guard over the Mages in the Gallows and lock that **** down, have the City Guard and the Champion lock down the Docks with Templar support, and calmly get them to disperse.

And if they try to attack, kill them until they realize the folly of going against the largest standing army in the city, coupled with the Guardsmen and the man who's killed half of Kirkwall already.


[quote]Very nice rhetoric but it has no bearing on the unquie situation and reality of Kirkwall. It also entirely ignores the true intent of the Chantry and Templar Order. And I can recall no such rule about Templars holding power as an organization. Individual Templars I remember a rule against them but a Templar leader acting in the name of the Order? I know no such rule against it. The situation is unprecedented. And I love how you nail Meredith to the cross on any issue of legality and give Loghain's clearly unlawful betrayal of his King and country a pass.[/quote]

It has every bearing on Kirkwall.

What's the true intent? To have Chantry power merged with that of the state, to have no differing voices heard?

And Loghain didn't betray his king. For ****'s sake, I'm getting tired of all this nonsense because it stems from people having a heavily romanticized viewpoint on warfare when they know nothing about how war works. That's what I've seen time and time again on these forums, and it pisses me off to no end.

The battle was unwinnable. That is solid, undeniable fact that the game displays ample evidence for.


[quote]Then I misread your sentence. The Templars have the army to defend the city so why shouldn't they step in to govern it? Why allow the city to use your army with little reward?[/quote]

Oh so now we're doing things for selfish interests? How charming. No, it can't be that the Templars care about the city and want it to be safe! No, they must be rewarded for helping the people!

Bah, this sickens me.

[quote]It is simply your belief they should not step in as rulers. It does not discount the fact that because they are a powerhouse martial force the city relies on they can and to further their own goals should.[/quote]

It's not my belief. It's friggin' Chantry law.

[quote]
Kirkwall is not without its Nobility-- its court and offices that Meredith cannot safely ignore in politics. And bringing the city under a united marital command is very beneficial and efficient.[/quote]

Martial law is beneficial and efficient for society?

Wow....

[quote]In my town the city and county Police Departments merged under the leadership of the city mayor and command of the city Chief of Police. The county Chief of Police position was eliminated. They are no longer two separate forces as they had been since conception in the late 1800s yet no one complains about a lack of city or county autonomy.[/quote]

Because those two groups served the same functions, just in different areas. It'd be one thing if soldiers living in a neighboring village near Kirkwall joined the City Guard because they were protecting that area.

The Templars and the Guardsmen serve two distinctly different purposes.

[quote]Very nice rhetoric. It does not present the full situation however.[/quote]

Keep that up where you dismiss what I'm saying by going "That's nice" and I'll drop the conversation entirely.



[quote]
And this is completely out of Meredith's hands. The case was rightfully turned over to the City-Guard and Emeric acting beyond his bounds does not inform Meredith of any new developments.

I checked from my save game. He states he will bring the evidence Hawke presents him to the City-Guard immediately and leaves the Gallows and the quest ends. He elects to work with them as a sole concerned Templar emissary-- they have control of the case now after all. And his prompting spurs Aveline to raid the DuPuis estate in Act 2 and embarass the City-Guard and through his role in it-- the Templars. He mentions nothing of informing Meredith of the evidence in Act 2 and because he acted so wildly outside his responsibility he is reprimanded and forbidden from further investigation.[/quote]

You checked wrongly.

Yes, he brings what Hawke finds to the City Guardsmen in Act 1.

But when Hawke asks him "Didn't you tell the Templars about all that stuff I found for you years ago?" he says "I did! But they just passed it along to the City Guard, who then ignored it themselves!"

This is when you talk to him specifically in the Gallows in Act 2.


[quote]No its just Aveline and Emeric who fail to take appropriate action. Meredith may not be likeable in personality and she may be overly strict for your tastes and she may be consolidating power and she may be a thousand other things that make her such a horrible villiainous b*tch in your view but she is not at fault in this situation.[/quote]

Yes, she is. Even Cullen says the Templars are at fault.

[quote]And I'd like proof of that. Cullen who says you can never trust a mage.[/quote]

Talk to him after Leandra's death.


[quote]And how do you know she isn't ruling Kirkwall fairly? That the city won't benefit from her rule long term?[/quote]

Aside from the fact she's possessed by an evil artifact? That she authorized a death squad led by one of her handpicked extremists she personally chose for such an assignment? That she thinks only she can determine when she's capable of stepping down? The woman that sees blood magic as the result of any differing opinion?

Yes, I can certainly see that madwoman being a great person for leadership in politics.



[quote]No they don't.[/quote]

Yes, they do. Charm and charisma are key aspects of being in politics. See how far being blunt, rude, and all around unlikable gets you in politics.

[quote]The City-Guard does not need to remain separate. I provided my own home-town true-life example of a martial merger.[/quote]

Which is not applicable at all.

[quote]It was nothing but beneficial for both departments. Imagine The First Sacrifice and Prime Suspect under a merged Templar-City-Guard effort. [/quote]

Which could've been accomplished had the Templars done their job in the first place, since Emeric says in Act 2 when Hawke initially talks to him that he did bring all the evidence he was given in Act 1 to the Templars, who passed it off to the City Guard, who then ignored it.

[quote]The Templars and City-Guard are the same force meaning Emeric would be present Hawke's evidence in-house by default and not to a separate organization that has taken authority over what is no longer Templar case.

And the Nobility has not disappeared from the city. They hold court and have offices of power that cannot be safely eliminated. They matter to the city's autonomy more so than its weak police force.[/quote]

The nobility have no say in what goes on in Kirkwall. Meredith ignores them for her own course of action.

[quote]Untrue. "Cold corpses speak louder than words do they not?" The story of her sister.[/quote]

She's completely unwilling to admit her own Templars' faults and actively promotes the extremists in her ranks, who end up causing more damage by oppressing the Mages, and aren't duly punished for their crimes.

Having a tragic backstory doesn't make one good at politics. Christ, what the hell does that have to do with her asenine decisions? The fact that she won't even admit that the Templars are at fault for Quentin going as far as he did speaks volumes.


[quote]Again stellar choice he made for a partner. He knew Howe want something tangilbe for his efforts.[/quote]

And he can't do anything to stop him. Howe has control of the greater part of the Coastlands now and actively controls the capital city by this point. He presents a military threat if antagonized.

[quote]What about the mages connected to The Last Holdouts and On The Loose that return to the Circle without incident?[/quote]

In the Last Holdouts, no mages return to the Circle. Ser Mettin advocates the slaughter of the mage sympathizers that were with the mages, meaning the non-mages that were friendly to the Mages.

And On the Loose had Mages turn themselves over voluntarily.

[quote]They did not use blood magic. Perhaps the mages who turn to it are simply weak willed renegades. Huon who wishes for Elven superiority?[/quote]

Who had his mind broken because he's in a Circle that literally dragged him away in chains, beats Mages, and doesn't give one **** about Elves (as we see in one encounter with Templars)?

[quote]

You cannot say Meredith has turned the Circle to blood magic with her policies. Perhaps driven them to rebellion. Small insurrections. Moderate Templars even. But not blood magic. That is a choice they make.[/quote]

She does drive them to it. Normal magic does not work against Templars, as they're capable of dispelling it. Blood magic does not suffer such problems.

The extent of what she does only goes to the driving them towards blood magic, however. How they choose to use such magic and whether they allow themselves to be possessed is on their shoulders.

[quote]Does a teacher drive a student to cheat because they give hard exams? No.[/quote]

Because a hard test and a hard oppression are two equally comparable things.

[quote] One supposed extreme is not cause for another. Blood magic is never needed to survive. It is turned to because it is easy-- because mages want to combat Templar control through their own strength and rely on nothing else. The illicit use of blood magic is for several reasons a literal and metaphorical refusal to act legitimately.[/quote]

I'm going to love to see the look on Pro-Templar/Pro-Chantry faces when it's revealed Andraste the Somniari OGB was a blood mage to boot.

Because repeatedly have people discounted out of hand the beneficial applications of blood magic, including the capability to manipulate blood flow which, while used more often then not in abhorrent methods, can be used to control the blood flow of those seriously injured.

[quote]
So you discredit her moment of heartache. A moment where she humanizes the hard Templar stance.[/quote]

Because of her mood swings. Her radical shifts are the problem, not what's said. What's said is sensible, but coming from her with those mood swings it seems unable to be taken seriously.

Have Ser Agatha say it, and I'll believe it. 

[quote]
That makes no sense. Had he wanted him to change or adjust his views he wouldn't have sent him to Kirkwall. And I'm not interested in your headcanon. I think it makes you biased in your view of the situation. You attempt to force situations to conform to your view of characters instead of objectively evaluating the situation.[/quote]

No, I'm not imposing my headcanon. I'm simply stating what's fact and saying that it seems to jive with my headcanon.

Sending someone who's bordering on the extreme to the actual extremist's camp where they're actively oppressing their charges is, in fact, sensible in a way. It's saying "Go here and see if you'd be willing to treat other people, Mage or no, like this."

It's a gamble, because it relies on Cullen's humanity.


[quote]??? She is not smiling.[/quote]

Oh she most assuredly is.


[quote]Rose tined glasses. Certainly she has. "What choice do we have? If you cannot tell me another way do not brand me a tyrant." "I know exactly why the mages struggle and why the law we uphold are so vital."
[/quote]

"Magic is a cancer in the heart of our land".

"The Circle will know fear".

And her advocation that Orsino be clapped in irons for speaking the truth or executed for his talks of "treason".

[quote]
She said to my Hawke that meant Orsino had covered his tracks well or that he was thoroughly incompetent at his job. I recall no line about being a bloodthrall.[/quote]

She says exactly that. You may have to go a different rout of dialogue however after you tell her. I'm assuming you told her of those involved?

IIRC in my lone Pro-Templar run, I did not and that's what I heard.


[quote]Very nice rhetoric but that does not reflect the reality of the situation in any Circle.[/quote]

Oh for the love of God...

Review the damn lore. Now you're just dismissing anything that proves you wrong and I'll be honest, it's actually getting on my nerves.

The Circles don't operate that way because the Chantry and Templars for the most part actively prevent it. Whitewash the facts if you wish, you're doing your own arguments no credit. Ferelden is the only one that actually held true to how the Circles are supposed to be run.


[quote]I will not have this argument with you. If the position of Viscount suddenly fell into his lap Cullen would immediately be unsuited for the job and-- in my substainated opinion which you can read in the last thread we debated this-- a bad solution long term.[/quote]

Regardless of whether he'd be good or bad for it, my point is that he'd be better. Either he'd prove himself a slightly better fit for the roles of KC and Viscount, or he'd find it too much of a headache and only do the duty insofar as a new Viscount was elected, which would be Hawke.

If he wasn't good at it, he'd step down from the role.

If he was good at it, great.

If he was only better then Meredith by a small amount, also great.

Certainly, Meredith's not setting a very high bar.

[quote]
Do you know the price of tea in Kirkwall after Meredith's ascension to Viscoutness? The state of the economy? Do you know how she plays the Nobility? How she works with them? How business is with an official gaureentee of Templar protection and not merely a backroom bargin for it? Do you not think Cullen is running the day-to-day in the Circle and Order? Is the city crumbling three years into her rule? Unsubstaniated opinion.[/quote]

I've seen enough to know that she isn't doing her job well.

The economy of Kirkwall is fine.

The nobility do not like her one bit. Only a few lemmings will support her, and that's only if the Champion supports her. But it's known regardless of Hawke's stance that noble families are opposing her. Not just Marlein Selbrech and her friends, but other nobles as well.


[quote]The devil is in the details. And I take it back. She isn't a little bit of a Mary Sue. Evangeline is a complete Mary Sue by the novel's end. This line concering her and Cole-- a murderer of Circle mages six times over-- was classic goody-goody Mary Sue-- "For a moment they were two lost souls embracing in the darkness." I kid you not. How adorabad. [/quote]

That does seem to taste like diabetes.



[quote]Evangeline is a soft Noble carrying the terrible misfortune of being born a woman with warrior aspirations.[/quote]

In Orlais of all places? The nation that reveres the female knight Ser Aveline? The place that considers all women who enter knighthood as being worht praise?

Seriously? That makes me question what was going through DG's head. It's known female knights are seen more in Orlais then elsewhere. Why should she be ashamed if her father was a Chevalier? If her nation is open to the prospect?

I'm sorry but... what? I'm not saying I don't believe you on this, it just seems to be some.... really odd things for Evangeline to think.

[quote]She lauds honor and duty as her Chevalier father but balks at tough Templar responsibility a Knight-Captain is expected to bear. Reality-- that is something her father didn't teach-- something the Chant of Light can't preach. 

She is obviously written as the "good templar" but in effect is a fake templar. She is pretty. She is a good fighter. But the final tipping point-- She as no flaws-- excluding her portrayal as a horrible Templar and that is meant to be endearing. She had promise as the moderate Templar voice but disappointingly devolves into an overly compassionate Mary Sue.

This man said it best-- 

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
[i]Evangeline :  But what a fool woman, I hate her. At first she seemed cool, but actually she is dumb. Naive, unconscious, blinded by a morality completely shifted and out of reality. A very bad leader, a good soldier yes, but she has no competence to hunt blood and bad mages,  master of lies and manipulation, to protect her people effectively, and see rationally where is the interest of the people in the heart of the action. She is blinded by something completely abstract in a war. If all the Templars were like her, the world would be completely lost.

She is a good soldier, but her role should not have been that of a Templar. She is a bad templar. A Templar must not only have compassion for mages, it must also be devoted to humanity, to all those innocent powerless against mages and demons. It should establish the perfect balance between the two to do its duty. She supported Rhys in his will to fight the Templars, against the loyalist's thought, she is no longer a templar, she has betrayed the cause. If she is in the next game, I will kill her unless she proves me she knows sometimes make decisions that is anything other than just stupid compassion.

She's so stupid, inexperienced. We see that she has never experienced betrayal, some things tragic she does not know what it is having to need to act without hesitation, to avoid the worst against the odds. I do not even know if she has ever seen in her life, mages turn into demons, she seems so rooted in principles obsolete, learned only by heart. And the worst is that she continues to defend Cole, despite his murders, it is a demon, If it's justice, if it isn't important,  she can go to **** off.

I am so pissed off, she is alive finally at the end, That was so bad, I Screamed. Even I am more pissed off, because of this fool, Wynn died. It makes me sick.

(Cont.)

compassion, rigid notions guide that person, yes. It is not suitable enough to the reality that the templar job is thankless, ruthless. Yes, more compassion, more humanity.

But her thoughts to me are those of a person who can be easily manipulated, by feelings, emotions and ect. Blood mages and demons are masters of lies and deceit. She can be easily betrayed.

Demons, abominations, evil mages who act against their will, all that could hit her hard, and show that it is more complicated than that, and sometimes very difficult decisions must be made.

She has completely jumped on the bandwagon of " let's help mages, freedom,  you're human, I love you)

The mages, voted to fight, why is she with Rhys at the end ? She has forgotten what they could be ?

She is a good person, a good soldier, but a bad templar, she doesn't know what this job needs, except compassions for mages. She doesn't know how difficult it is, she is just an idealistic person. Otherwise she couldn't stand that in the same time, they decide to fight and to be free. She didn't care at all that they refused the loyalist's thought, that would have allowed maybe the discussion. No she just holds the hand of her honey and end of line. 

Do you really think that Evangeline is able to decide to kill hundreds of lives, aware of the danger they represent? Would she agree to kill some innocent lives too among them for the sake of the great number ? Are you sure she is ready to accept that after reading this book ?

The problem with this book, is that she is NEVER confronted to very difficult decisions, extreme situations, so it is easy to see in her, a good templar. 

I apply her way of thinking to other situations, and I can totally see that she is not ready for the Templar job. She has never experimenced what a mage could really do, that's obvious.[/quote][/quote]

Eh, I'll admit, it does seem to be rather... blinded. It doesn't make her a Mary Sue, because that for me would mean everyone's fawning at her specialness, but I'll admit she's not a very good Templar all the time. Her only mark of doing her duty is the aforementioned tavern incident.

[quote]@TWER; Bro, you know I can't respond to your post because you still haven't addressed mine from several pages ago. I think it includes your topic of interest should you wish to read my stance regarding it.[/quote]

Addressed one, might address the other the day after tomorrow.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 avril 2013 - 04:28 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

This is back from page 6, but we Youth4ever and I never finished our discussion, and I'd hate to let her have the last word on it.

[/quote]
And for a while I thought you were going to be a gentleman about it. 

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

They should have a standing army The Red Irons mercenary force isn't the only one, as we ran afoul the Winters in Act 1. There's the city guard, and we know that the nobles of their own forces as well, as part of the Red Irons quest in Act 1 to kill that one noble, the force sent ahead of you were destroyed by Harriman's men.[/quote]
Mercenary groups won't let you use their men without it benefiting them substantially. In that regard they are no better than the Templars, and worse you'd be dealing with a roughneck or criminal element. You would rely on that to protect your city? You would associate your city with such an element? You think the Nobility will agree to that? And I did not see them anywhere in evidence during the Qunari attack. The Templars have impact. And if the private forces of the Nobility were truly substanial I suspect the City Guard would not need to conscript during wartime.

While combined the groups you mentioned could be formidable they simply are not the templars. They are not a large military trained warrior order with impressive weapons and armor. They also have Chantry clout-- attacking the Templars is attaking the Chantry as a whole and they have a vested interest in Kirkwall. Another advantage.[/quote]
[quote]The free marches aren't a unified nation. It's a series of 
city-states similar to ancient greece. Starkhaven and Kirkwall are two
completely different kingdoms within the same continent.[/quote]
I'm confused. Where did I mention Starkhaven?

[quote]Kirkwall doesn't exactly have the resources to maintain a standing army.[/quote]
That is why they need the Templar Army conveniently in the Gallows. 

[quote]The templars are drug addicts. They suffer lyrium withdrawal and it may result in insanity, a loss in understanding of the world around you, and even death. [/quote]
Lyrium intake makes them efficient at nullifying magical attack. Another advantage over or a conventional army should your enemies bring mages to attack.

[quote]The templars are an army, loyal to the Chantry first [...] than to the country they live in...[/quote]
But the Chantry/Templars have great interest in Kirkwall. They will not betray the city if that is your worry or deny it defense when promised.

[quote]...and they have far more political power than they should have[/quote]
It is a fair enough opinion to feel the Chantry/Templars should not have political sway, but so long as they have wealth and an army that are called on in times of need, it is also reasonable to believe they will indeed reap benefits from their efforts.

Do you also feel an organization like the Grey Wardens has no business in politcs despite the situation in Ferelden and the Anderfels?

[quote]and the lyrium needed to keep each and every one of them on their fix is daunting and expensive.[/quote]
The city does not pay for their upkeep or their lyrium and providing it has never been an issue for the Chantry.

[quote]Gather the mercenary groups and the soldiers of each noble house and the city guard, and you'll have an army, that may not be as well trained or as well equipped, but will ultimately be far more reliable in the long run, without the need for lyrium.[/quote]
This sounds closer to a militia and not an army and I don't know that I would call the more reliable.

[quote]Were I the Qunari Arishok, and I were fighting the templars, the very first thing I would do would be to take all the lyrium from the Chantry stores, and either use it to make explosives or destroy it and keep the templars from getting it. The templars would in short order be suffering mass lyrium withdrawal as the Chantry controls the lyrium trade.[/quote]
Templars do not enter lyrium withdrawl for at least a week and can function afterwards even so. And that appears to be older Templars. Younger Templars may fair better. Even Samson functions relatively well without a steady intake of lyrium. He is an older Templar and he hasn't lost his mind or had serverly negative side affects. And lyrium supplies could be sent to the Templars from a nearby Circle in the Free Marches along with reinforcements. I'd imagine an Exhalted March would certainly be in the works as well. And this is assuming lyrium is kept in a place where the Templars cannot readily access it. Lord Seeker Lambert has no issue providing Ser Evangeline with lyrium before she departs for Adamant and I'm rather certain he did not leave the White Spire to acuqire it.

[quote]Hardly reliable as an army. In order to pay for lyrium from smugglers, the templars would be forced to raze the countryside for resources. Most would soon go insane or die from the withdrawal alone. [/quote]
A very realiable army, the size of which cannot be found elsewhere in Thedas. Meredith's contingent is the largest in Thedas and the Templars as a united whole, should you truly draw ther ire, are a force to be reckoned with.

[quote]And Meredith consistently working to seize political power. Even before Act 1, when Hawke gets off the boat, Meredith is calling the shots and the guard says he doesn't know what would happen if the Viscount ever went against what Meredith wanted.[/quote]
She would deny him marital support the city needs. That's what I would do. Kirkwall can't afford that as we know.

[quote]And we don't know that lyrium creates mages, or a thin veil. We know lyrium exposure is very dangerous to non-dwarves and can be deadly at times, and we know through the developers that mages have an easier time using magic as the veil thins, but the thinner the veil, the chances of abominations and demons coming through of their own volition increases. There is no in-game or book evidence that suggests that a thin veil actually creates mages.[/quote]
Direct exposure to lyrium harms mages but in small amounts it apparently produces mages. The Talking-Man in the Hanged Man suspects lyrium in the water as the culprit. And it makes sense when you think about it. Lyrium is described as the "stuff of creation". Mages can create ice, fire, stone, etc. from nothing. IMO that is evidence mages have a tiny bit of lyrium in their blood-- just enough that it is not fatal but allows them peform magic.

[quote]While the Qunari were holding all of High Town hostage, where the city guard was already located. And the guard were taken by surprise, the templars, being stationed on 
an island outside of the main city, could gather their forces, organize,
and launch an attack themselves where the Guard could not. It's quite likely that because the templars weren't there, that allowed them to gather the numbers to charge. The mages as an organiztion isn't allowed outside of the Gallows, so they wouldn't be a standing army ready to charge the Qunari lines. The chantry would never allow it. [/quote]
I take that back. The Templars did not come from the Gallows. Hawke comes from Lowtown and when he arrives Meredith and Orsino are already in Hightown. If they had come from the Gallows they should have been behind Hawke. It's only a very small group present with Meredith that battles the Qunari. Can't believe I missed that.

[quote]Although I would like to know what Orsino an his entorage were doing in High Town themselves. Looking for Quentin to bring him to justice? Purchasing supplies for the Circle? I honestly have no idea. [/quote]
Most likely meeting with Meredith and Elthina in the Chantry. And there is no evidence Orsino was so ignorant to the nature of Quentin's research.

[quote]Don't forget that Orsino single handedly can take care of the brigade of qunari at the keep, and draws them away for Hawke to sneak in. Imagine what an army of mages could do in that situation. [/quote]
He is not shown fighting those Qunari and considering he and his mages were decimated in Hightown when Hawke finds him, I would think that an overestimation of his abilities. He is the sole survivor and that very much seems like a stroke of luck.

[quote]And everyone was taken off guard anyway.

[/quote]
And yet the Templars with Hawke in tow take care of business while the City-Guard flounders.

[quote]Right. Let me quote the guard when Hawke first arrives. The guard says no more refugees were allowed in Kirkwall, by Knight-Commander Meredth's orders. Hawke questions this, saying Knight-Commander is a templar title. The guard shrugs and says "Sure. But I don't know what would happen if Viscount Dumar went against something Meredith wanted."  She was already running the show. She was simply doing it from behind the scenes. It's not until Act 3 that she's completely open about it.[/quote]
There is a difference between arm-twisting-- having the attention of a ruler-- and ruling yourself. Deciding policy yourself. Negotiating directly with the Nobility etc. She is the military power in Kirkwall and while very significant, Meredith does not have the benefit of actually ruling the city.

[quote]She doesn't. She simply forces at worst, or allows the extremists she promotes like Ser Kerras, Ser Alrik and Ser Mettin to create situations where the mage will either get raped and illegally tranquilized, killed on trumped up charges, or fight back and justify being killed anyway.[/quote]
Why does everyone assume Meredith allows this? Does Loghain allow Howe to torture his subjects? Do you hold him responsible for Howe's actions?

[quote]She never investigates her templars and gives them near unlimited power over mages, which they proceed to abuse horrifically and the mages can't do anything about it.[/quote]
And how do you know that exactly? What proof do you have?

[quote]Blood magic becomes a desperate resort, as it's the only kind of magic the templars cannot nullify.[/quote]
What about the mages connected to The Last Holdouts and On The Loose that return to the Circle without incident? They did not use blood magic. Perhaps the mages who turn to it are simply weak willed renegades. Huon who wishes for Elven superiority? Perhaps they learned it from a malcontent in the Circle unhappy with all Templar oversight-- as the Starkhaven apostates learned it from their crazy leader-- and spread it to other mages foolish enough to be caught up in their rebellion. Perhaps apostates brought to the Circle discovered it in the undercity where Tevinter left their secrets centuries ago. The Enigma of Kirkwall details the city has forever been host to an unsually high number of blood mages. 

You cannot say Meredith has turned the Circle to blood magic with her policies. Perhaps driven them to rebellion. Small insurrections. Moderate Templars even. But not blood magic. That is a choice they make. Does a teacher drive a student to cheat because they give hard exams? No. Does a boss drive his employee to murder because he enforces strict policies? Where is the accountability? One supposed extreme is never cause for another. Blood magic is never needed to survive. It is turned to because it is easy-- because mages want to combat Templar control through their own strength and rely on nothing else. The illicit use of blood magic is for several reasons a literal and metaphorical refusal to act legitimately.

[quote]Meredith allowed Alrik to do what he did. It's simply not possible she didn't know what he was up to.[/quote]
Loghain allowed Howe to do what he did. It's simply not possible he didn't know what he was up to. /TwoCanPlayThatGame

[quote]Thrask says that if Kerras killed all the mages in Act 1 if they haven't surrendered by the time he showed up (meaning he had no intention of using negotiation) then Meredith would consider it perfectly justified.[/quote]
So would many Templars. They escaped the Starkhaven Circle -- which looks like the result of a mage rebellion-- as blood mage aposates. And Thrask was far too trusting for his own good. It got him killed by a mage he wished to protect. He was reminded far to late why Meredith is as strict as she is.

[quote]She promotes Ser Metten to head her death squad in Act 3 and he goes around killing non-mages in broad daylight, relatives of mages or people who are sympathetic to mages. [/quote]
She also promotes Ser Agatha to invesitage the situation alongside Ser Mettin and Ser Agatha does not desire to harm the familes. And I did not receive the Pro-Mage version of that quest so they never go to individual homes seeking out apostates. There is no evidence to suggest Ser Mettin did not simply act roguishly.

[quote]Were I a mage and a templar was trying to rape me, I would use blood magic to defend myself with, knowing I'd probably die but I'd rather die on my feet than a slow death bent over for a templar sadist.[/quote]
How would you use blood magic if you had never studied it? If you hadn't planned to use it against the Templars at some point? It is an obvious sheathed weapon-- Blood magic is too political a magic to use without repercussion even in self defense. Use a knife instead. Plenty of mages have those apparently. Cole and Adrian, I'm looking at you.

[quote]And if the templars actions drive mages like Evelina, a mage who turned herself in after escaping the Blight in exchange for aid for the orphans she was taking care of (whom the Chantry immediately dropped and did nothing to help as far as I could see) then the Chantry and the templars are responsible for driving her insane in the first place. She still needed killing because she was a danger to herself and to everyone else, but that's not entirely her own fault.[/quote]
I don't exactly remember that quest but if your account it true the Chantry/Templars could have perhaps done more to ensure the boy's safety. There is no such thing as insanity. Insanity is not a real clinical or psychological condition as many erroneously believe it is. If Evelina went "insane" she had a previously undiagonosed mental condition that surfaced when she could not cope with her feelings of helplessnes and guilt. The Templar/Chantry response may have been her trigger but not the cause of her "insanity".

[quote]My Hawke begs to differ. He was THE mercenary![/quote]
My sarcastic Hawke prefers Important Errand Boy.

[quote]Any evidence of this? 

I thought so as well when I first played, but I've since looked over all the events of Origins, looked through the Codex entries AND listened to every single rumor Bodahn and the innkeepers would tell as we progressed through the story. I find a lot more evidence of political manuevering by the Bannorn and Howe than by Loghain.[/quote]
I addressed this in a post to TWER. http://social.biowar...8346/8#16546461 

[quote]When did he do that? He called a retreat on a battle that looked like it was already lost. Cailan was on the front lines, and the overhead showed more darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds. Cailan left a highly defensible location in search of glory, which he made no secret of in camp. Loghain repeatedly warned him not to be on the front lines, and that it was foolish to rely completely on the Grey Wardens. [/quote]
That does not mean it was and others support it was not. And it has been stated by Mary Kirby that Loghain does not have a full view of the battlefield. He cannot possibly know for certain that it was lost. It looks to me as though the army was holding its own but when the tide was expected to turn decisively in its favor-- Loghain's men meant to charge-- and it did not-- the fighting extended far past the call for reinforcements-- the battle was lost. I feel it was lost in a matter of minutes and that is thanks to Loghain's inaction. The army that fought the Horde at Denerim was outnumbered three to one by the darkspawn a guardmans tells you during The Final Onslaught and still they prevailed.

[quote]The bannorn mustered their armies first. He didn't keep Anora from ruling, he was out in the field constantly. If anything, I think Howe did more to keep Anora from ruling than Loghain did. For all we know, as there is very little evidence on what was happening in the palace while we're building an army, Anora could have been grieving for Cailan and gave her father the go-ahead to take care of things while she mourned. Wynne in Asunder admits that she was hasty to denounce Uldred and his support of Loghain, and we as the Wardens never really gain much perspective on things from Loghain's view because....we're not Loghain and we're in a completely different location, working towards defeating the blight while he is working to try and keep the land united while the bannorn are beginning to fight over the power vacuum that grew from Cailan's death. And Loghain never tortured nobles. That was Howe. You can't pin the actions of Howe on Loghain as they are completely different people. Should Loghain kept a tighter leash on Howe? Most definitely. Is he directly responsible for Howe's actions? Nope.[/quote]
And why can Loghain have these excues but not Meredith? How is his defense legitimate but not Meredith's?

[quote]Difference between Meredth and Loghain and why I hold Meredith to a higher standard than Loghain when it comes to dealing and investigating underlings is pretty straight forward. Loghain was fighting a civil war and was constantly out in the field. Meredith was living in a city-state more or less at peace, promoted all these extremists herself, and was on location at all times. There's no way she couldn't have known as she was right there, wheras Loghain has a reasonable excuse of not knowing because he was out fighting all the time. [/quote]
So in effect Meredith did the same things Loghian-- Power grabbing. Not always present. Promotes men of questionable intention as high-placed subordinates. Fought a monster she supposedly created. But Loghain gets a pass because you agree with him and Meredith doesn't because you're Pro-Mage?

It's okay to admit it. I won't judge. I promise. Pinki swear.

And for the record, I support Loghain in a majority of my playthroughs. I can agree with his reasoning. I can see where he's coming from.  But I can still see what he is and the similarites with Meredith.

It only makes him better in my eyes. 

I love both Meredith and Loghain. <3

And playing Devil's Advocate. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 mai 2013 - 02:10 .

[TEWR]

Do you also feel an organization like the Grey Wardens has no business in politcs despite the situation in Ferelden and the Anderfels?

Not the same situations at all. Context is different for the Grey Wardens.

That does not mean it was and others support it was not. And it has been stated by Mary Kirby that Loghain does not have a full view of the battlefield. He cannot possibly know for certain that it was lost. It looks to me as though the army was holding its own but when the tide was expected to turn decisively in its favor-- Loghain's men meant to charge-- and it did not-- the fighting extended far past the call for reinforcements-- the battle was lost. I feel it was lost in a matter of minutes and that is thanks to Loghain's inaction. The army that fought the Horde at Denerim was outnumbered three to one by the darkspawn a guardmans tells you during The Final Onslaught and still they prevailed.

The army had the aid of dozens and dozens of Mages, tens of thousands of Dwarves (which weren't even the full force the Dwarves could've provided), Golems, hundreds of Dalish Elves, hundreds of Templars, and/or Werewolves.

Their being outnumbered 3 to 1 is better odds then they had at Ostagar during the battle, where they were outnumbered by far more as we can plainly see from the view of the bridge.

And I did not receive the Pro-Mage version of that quest so they never
go to individual homes seeking out apostates. There is no evidence to
suggest Ser Mettin did not simply act roguishly.

No. Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it didn't happen. What that means is that the people who tell you about it -- Ser Marlein Selbrech -- don't trust you to help them, and rightly so because you're helping Meredith -- the very person she's opposed to.

The fact is that you are told by the second person omniscient journal that Meredith handpicked Mettin for the task of leading a death squad. There is no "acting roguishly" at all. Saying such is trying to be an apologist for Meredith.

She picked him for the role because of his extremism.

Were I the Qunari Arishok, and I were fighting the templars, the very
first thing I would do would be to take all the lyrium from the Chantry
stores, and either use it to make explosives or destroy it and keep the
templars from getting it. The templars would in short order be suffering
mass lyrium withdrawal as the Chantry controls the lyrium trade.

Saar-qamek would be a far better method. It incapacitates the Templars and causes them to be unable to leave the vicinity where the gas is coming out until such time as the Kossith -- who are immune to its effects -- can go there and deal with the Templars and Mages in force (which necessitates reinforcements from Seheron and Par Vollen).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 avril 2013 - 05:00 .

[Lazy Jer]

The walls! The walls of text are closing in on me! Can't....breath....! *flails dramatically,  gasps*

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 30 avril 2013 - 10:40 .

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

I expect Bethany to be a rare case. Most mages probrably wish to be Tevinters.
The point is that before the Circle, mages were not locked up, the Chantry's demand was that magic not be used which, to me, seems like a fair deal.
Equality goes both ways. If the mages wish to have the same rights as any man, then they should have the same capabilities as any man and not more.
But the mages refused. They wanted magic which indicates that what they wish is supremacy, not equality.

Sarcastically*. I expect that Bethany isn't a rare case and and that most Tevinters wish to be Bethany.

But moving along to something that isn't pointless to argue about, mages giving up magic.  Sorry, but it just doesn't work like that.  The only "off switch" for magic is the Rite of Tranquility.  So if you use the RoT on anyone who shows magical ability than that indicates supremacy of non-mages.   It's not a case of "wanting magic" it's a case of having magic whether one wants it or not.

*...and yes that is a reference to my favorite Mass Effect alien race.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 30 avril 2013 - 11:03 .

[Hazegurl]

Honestly, I think the Evelina quest could have some discrepancies in the writing. The whole point of her losing it was because no one helped the orphans she turned herself in for but I remember going into the Chantry and overhearing the sisters speaking about helping orphans but they just kept running off. I even remember one asking the other. "Why won't they let us help them?"

I don't know if they are referring to the same orphans but I see no reason why not considering that Evelina came to Kirkwall with a group of them.

[Lazy Jer]

Hazegurl wrote...

Honestly, I think the Evelina quest could have some discrepancies in the writing. The whole point of her losing it was because no one helped the orphans she turned herself in for but I remember going into the Chantry and overhearing the sisters speaking about helping orphans but they just kept running off. I even remember one asking the other. "Why won't they let us help them?"

I don't know if they are referring to the same orphans but I see no reason why not considering that Evelina came to Kirkwall with a group of them.

Could be.  There are several programmers and writers in this game and whatnot.  Or it could be to illustrate that there are some people just as unstable as Meredith is.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 30 avril 2013 - 02:48 .

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...
But moving along to something that isn't pointless to argue about, mages giving up magic.  Sorry, but it just doesn't work like that.  The only "off switch" for magic is the Rite of Tranquility.  So if you use the RoT on anyone who shows magical ability than that indicates supremacy of non-mages.   It's not a case of "wanting magic" it's a case of having magic whether one wants it or not.

I fear you don't understand what I mean. Before there were the Circles, the Chantry appeared to not segregate mages, they simply forbid the use of magic for anything beyond beyond the most mundane of tasks such as lighting candles. And the mages protested.
Now, I'm not surprised they did. I simply find it hypocritical how a group of people who claim to wish for equality, to be so unwilling to simply not use the very thing that separates them from normal people.
Basically, what they say is this: "We want to have the same rights as normal men but we also want to keep using our demigod powers that grant us superiority over others."

[lil yonce]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think when your life is on the line, all people have the capacity to be soldiers and warriors, regardless of lineage.[/quote]
That does not mean you are willing to live under the threat of constant warfare however and that is the situation in Kirkwall.

[quote]Not saying Kirkwall did that. Not saying it didn't either.[/quote]
I think we would know about it if they did.

[quote]Just saying that wars fought with commoners conscripted is not as hopeless a venture as you paint it as. Kirkwall's military significance grants it advantages that cancel out a lot of the inexperience of an army newly formed.[/quote]
Yet no Viscount has faith enough to try out a civilian army. Damnation with faint praise.

[quote]The City Guard is large. Not as large as the Templars, sure, but still large.[/quote]
Based on their small headquarters I have a hard time believing that but there exact numbers are not pertinent to the discussion.

[quote]Kirkwall is an expansive trading hub, which means money is in ample supply. Deals are made routinely in the city. Money means that they can maintain an army. It means they can buy food, weapons, armor, barracks, etc.[/quote]
And yet they have no army to train-- to spend this wealth on.

[quote]He fires a fireball into the group by launching a sneak attack that decimates more then half of their forces, to which the remainder charge at him as he whittles them down further.[/quote]
I don't actually recall this at all. What scene is this from?

[quote]He does not run away. He slowly steps backwards.[/quote]
A figure of speech.

[quote]And as you find out, he took on the Qunari in Hightown on his own and told his charges to flee, saying that they should let the Qunari take him prisoner.[/quote]
Hmm? He may have told them to flee but they did not. They fought at his side. I don't see evidence he fought or killed any Qunari on his own but if you have proof I would like to see it.

[quote]The man was willing to sacrifice his own life for that of his people, knowing full well that either death or sewn lips awaited him.[/quote]
Admirable but not pertinent.

[quote]When things went badly for him, his charges fought because they're that loyal to him. They lost their lives in the process, and Orsino was forgotten in the aftermath (and Bethany too) so that's why they survived.[/quote]
That does not suggest he fought Qunari on his own or that he is uber-powerful. That he is alive seems very much like a stroke of luck indeed.

[quote]To discount that out of hand is not wise. It's gameplay reflecting the lore we are told, not gameplay trying to be equal to the lore.[/quote]
So long as combatants materialize from thin air I will question the legitimacy of Hawke's Qunari body count in this situation.

[quote]I see no Qunari corpses save for one, that is shown to have been the Guardsmen's work. If they took down any Qunari, I wouldn't have fought them throughout the upper levels. Or I would have seen evidence.[/quote]
You hate the Templars so much you won't give them some obvious credit? Okay.

[quote]Rewatch the cutscene where she appears. When she looks up at the path leading to the Viscount's Keep, you can clearly see a Templar back there. Here. Pause it and rewind it back to the 9:20-9:23 mark.[/quote]
I see him now. But I'm not sure of your point. I said the Templars fought Qunari in Hightown-- not that they defeated them all. There are thugs fighting Qunari. The Magi fought. The fight certainly wasn't over. To suggest the Templars did nothing because Hawke still has to fight Qunari in Hightown is really streching it. Its only the Knight-Commander and a few of her men. Meredith comes to the merchant stalls because she is fighting Qunari-- not to rescue Hawke as she doesn't even know s/he was there.

[quote]1) The Templars are not shown to have battled any Qunari beyond the reinforcements that come in after the ones in front of the Keep are dealt with, and they have Orsino who managed to take down an entire group by himself on their side (and is also capable of healing, as he displays with Bethany).[/quote]
It is obviously inferred and I will leave it at that. Should I assume the Magi who died did nothing? That they stood around and let the Qunari kill them because they didn't defeat the Qunari outside the Keep?

[quote]2) The thugs can't deal with the Qunari on their own. They lose.[/quote]
Of course not. And who has the most men still standing after a Qunari fight? The Templars. The are valuable warriors.

[quote]The assault on Kirkwall was a sneak attack showing "an unparalleled level of sorcery". What that means is that decades prior, the Qunari were not known for their magical strength. They abhorred magic. But when they saw the advantages it could give them in war (since it was Thedas' strength) they began to cultivate it and used it in Kirkwall. And it's safe to say that even now, they've been strengthening their Mages' power, albeit slowly then Thedas does.[/quote]
It was a sneak attack. I grant you that. But Is is not possible they also attacked Starkhaven with the same ferocity? That they also sneak attacked them? Used their Saarebas to some extent-- not the level of attack on Kirkwall but used them nonetheless?

[quote]Which, if it formed, is necessary. It's not supposed to be pretty. Politics is not about being pretty. The people would see they have no shot and then disperse. Meredith's course of action is not only ugly, it's unnecessary.[/quote]
And Meredith wouldn't remain in office long after repressing the populace in such a brutal manner. It would make her thoroughly unpopular and her trial as Templar-Viscount branded a horrible precedent. You do not carry out such an action when you are trying to prove that Templar rule is good and works well. That is politics that cannot be ignored.

[quote]*dons Sten hat* No. First, she has made no effort to get the city on her side. She's been antagonizing them from day one.[/quote]
So you kill its citizens in a crucial point of your tenure and that endears you to them? And if you feel Meredith did this-- did not Loghain do the same. "You must side with me or else." That was certainly his sentiment.
 [quote]Second, if they turn on you first by launching a riot then you put it down.[/quote]
You cannot put down an angry city.

[quote]The city riot is a hypothetical that has no basis...[/quote]
From our own country's history I beg to differ.

[quote]...and she's ready to raze the entire Circle to the ground and build a new one for the wrong reasons.[/quote]
Why are her reasons wrong? Blood magic cannot be tolerated.

[quote]No Meredith, making mages "know fear" and that they bear a "cancer" is not the way to rebuild. Learning from a tragedy and making sure it doesn't happen again is the right way to go, which includes admitting your own faults in the problem.[/quote]
Ensuring the Magi submit is her response to ensuring the situation will not happen again. You can disagree with that stance but that is her way as a hardened Knight-Commander.

I am not suggesting you have love Meredith but she a legitmate stance. Loghain despite his harsh words and unapolegetic attitude has a legitimate stance.

He never admits he was wrong--In fact he says he would do everything the same way knowing the outcome during Return to Ostagar. And yet I feel he has a legitimate stance. I am willing to look past character flaws and evaluate their position and the situational context. I will not condemn her Meredith's entire position because she is harsh and unapolegetic. It would be rather short-sighted to do so.

[quote]I don't. But if they show themselves to be criminals, they and they alone shall be punished. If they escape, a Templar's duty is to bear that weight.[/quote]
So some feel but many others would disagree. Myself included. And it is not some blood mages that will go scott free in Kirkwall. It is a considerable number and given time they will organize against the Templars in the same manner as Grace's group. That cannot be tolerated. Waiting for a blood magic attack you cannot combat is not a legitimate solution as Knight-Commander. This is a Templar's responsibility. They are expected to carry out these kind of actions.

[quote]You choose the course of action that is right at the time, which here is protecting the Mages from a mob that might form.[/quote]
The RoA has been called because the Circle is corrupt. That alone justifies the RoA. The city riot is an extra and you cannot put that down and get away with it politically.

[quote]She put down a riot that had started because Elves from all over the nation -- possibly Thedas, can't recall -- flocked to the Alienage due to a greater chance of better rights that Anora was granting, which led to the city being overcrowded and short on supplies like food, since much of Ferelden's farmland was tainted by the Darkspawn. As a result of the lack of food, the city Elves rioted. She had to put down a sizable population within the city. Now I personally headcanon that she tried all the alternatives to bloodshed that she could without coddling to the mob, and when those failed and a riot broke out she had to do the ugly thing. But that's only my headcanon. What I said above this paragraph, however, is what Anora actually did because we're told in-game. She put down a riot due to an overcrowded population that caused them to be short on food.[/quote]
Again a small disenfranchised minority. Not the much larger and far more important human population that is the vast majority of the Denerim make-up. Anora could not hope to put down such a riot without repercussion. And Elves have little say in politics. They could not affect Anora's rule as a human public uproar would affect it. And they cannot bear arms either as any human commoner can and dealing with starved and weaponless Elves is likely not much of a trial-- more like a minor inconvenience.

[quote]Yeah, well, that's a lone group of people near the seat of Chantry power. Not comparable to a city-state that has progressively been growing to want to oust the Knight-Commander who's abusing her power in both stations and is oppressing the populus.[/quote]
Kirkwall was home to one of the most beloved Grand Clerics in Thedas and she was slain by magic. And the public does not like mages. The Nobles in Hightown fear them far more than do ever do Meredith saying, "We're not safe while mages walk the streets," and the like. And in general mages are considered monstrous and a disgrace-- they are hated by the public.

[quote]Mary Kirby wrote...

Well, not to mention that most families don't want to be associated with their mage children. They're monstrous, and it's a disgrace to have one. The ones like Arlessa Isolde who don't turn them over at the first opportunity are rare.[/quote]

[quote]And besides, if a mob did form, the Templars' duty is to protect the Mages from mundane threats. Which means putting down the mob, to which when they saw that they had no shot in hell they'd run away.[/quote]
Not when you've called the RoA to put down Circle corruption. There is no point to defend the Magi. You kill the public and then kill the Magi. Why? The city riot will not call off the RoA.

[quote]No, it wasn't. The hypothetical musings of a woman possessed by a broken and thus more potent lyrium artifact that she's warped into a sword does not count for jack ****.[/quote]
Language...

[quote]But MLK's actions and the actions of his supporters were making a difference. Elthina's were not. Martin Luther King's actions were helping society. Elthina's inactions were making things worse.[/quote]
Elthina was the buffer between the Templars and the Mages. Without her Meredith has no leash. Her death sealed the fate of the Magi without question. Meredith could not execute the RoA earlier as she wanted because Elthina would not grant her the Right. And she cannot openly oppose Meredith as you and I have discussed. Politics dictate she cannot. She would jeapordize her position and be branded a mage lover-- ammunition that will be used against her.

[quote]Saying a riot was inevitable when there's no proof of that other then what people believe is disingenuous.[/quote]
Imma act like I ain't eem read that last bit. Our own history time and again demonstates a riot if not an absolute was very likely.

[quote]Fair enough, Kirkwall is irrelevant. But it's lovely how the Chantry doesn't do anything to stop people from believing such nonsense.[/quote]
Is this pertinant to the discussion?

[quote]Ah, you see! Evangeline does her duty and protects the Mages, while Wynne's able to calmly get them to disperse. Boom, that's how you handle a situation like Kirkwall. Mobilize the entire Templar army, have them stand guard over the Mages in the Gallows and lock that **** down, have the City Guard and the Champion lock down the Docks with Templar support, and calmly get them to disperse.[/quote]
Was magic used five seconds ago to slay the town's spiritual leader? No. I don't think those mages would have lived to see the next day had that been the case. Tensions and tempers were hot and simmering from long since past events. A recent one may have seen the mages hanged upon entrance. And Ser Evangeline was not at all appreciated for her efforts. The men were willing to rip her apart as well. And she has the mages sleep outside the Inn in haylofts she is so certain another assault will be carried out against them. It was not handled so cleanly as you think. And Meredith would still lose political and popular favor if she choose this route.

[quote]And if they try to attack, kill them until they realize the folly of going against the largest standing army in the city, coupled with the Guardsmen and the man who's killed half of Kirkwall already.[/quote]
So easy to utter but remember the repercussions of doing such. You won't simply get away with it.

[quote]It has every bearing on Kirkwall.[/quote]
Kirkwall needs the Templar army. If not Viscount Dumar would have told them to suck it years ago.

[quote]What's the true intent? To have Chantry power merged with that of the state, to have no differing voices heard?[/quote]
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! The Orlesian Emperor created the Chantry. They've always been about expansion in there true purpose.

[quote]And Loghain didn't betray his king.[/quote]
By law yes he did. There is no way around that.

[quote]For ****'s sake, I'm getting tired of all this nonsense because it stems from people having a heavily romanticized viewpoint on warfare when they know nothing about how war works. That's what I've seen time and time again on these forums, and it pisses me off to no end.[/quote]
Language...

It is not nonsense. Because we disagree it's nonsense? You can support Loghain in his decision but he abandoned his king.

[quote]The battle was unwinnable. That is solid, undeniable fact that the game displays ample evidence for.[/quote]
You say that as though it has officially been declared. It has not been. You can make the case it was unwinnable but that does prove it was. The battle at Denerim should have been unwinnable too with the army outnumbered three-to-one and only three Grey Wardens to kill the Archdemon and yet it was won. And Ostagar was better off.

[quote]Oh so now we're doing things for selfish interests? How charming.[/quote]
They always have. And everyone does.

[quote]No, it can't be that the Templars care about the city and want it to be safe! No, they must be rewarded for helping the people! Bah, this sickens me.[/quote]
I'm certain they do care but politics must be considered-- what the Chantry wants and will gain with Kirkwall under its control is foremost their reason for intervention.

And rarely do politics cater to the moral highround.

[quote]It's not my belief. It's friggin' Chantry law.[/quote]
Frustrated? Show me evidence of the law.

[quote]Martial law is beneficial and efficient for society? Wow....[/quote]
Such a tone. And no that is not what I stated nor my intent. The city is not and should not under martial rule. It simply has a united and far more efficient martial force to make use of.

[quote]Because those two groups served the same functions, just in different areas. It'd be one thing if soldiers living in a neighboring village near Kirkwall joined the City Guard because they were protecting that area. The Templars and the Guardsmen serve two distinctly different purposes.[/quote]
More and more their duties intersect. The First Sacrifice and its quest chain demonstrate that. And by Act 3 when this is initiated Meredith is acting Viscountess. She is head of state and her Templar and City duties overlap. They are no longer seperate organizations. They two no longer serve entirely separate purposes.

[quote]Keep that up where you dismiss what I'm saying by going "That's nice" and I'll drop the conversation entirely.[/quote]
Your rhetoric is sound. Quite sharp. But it is loose in its pertinence. You adhere rigidly to philosophy based in the moral highground and are not interested in the context or intricacies or difficulties of the presented situation.

[quote]You checked wrongly.

Yes, he brings what Hawke finds to the City Guardsmen in Act 1.

But when Hawke asks him "Didn't you tell the Templars about all that stuff I found for you years ago?" he says "I did! But they just passed it along to the City Guard, who then ignored it themselves!"

This is when you talk to him specifically in the Gallows in Act 2.[/quote]
Oh, really? I would like your evidence because I have my save game up right now and can quote Emeric word-for-word in Act 2 and he says no such thing.

-----

[quote]"When I became convinced of his guilt, I went to the City-Guard and demanded they do something. The guards raided his mansion and found nothing. They were forced to apologize and I was reprimanded. Meredith forbade me from continuing my investigation. But she didn't say I couldn't seek outside help."

Investigate option #1 -- Who else is looking into this?

"Were you the only person looking into these murders?"

"Yes, unfortunately. The Templar Order believes this is a matter for the City-Guard. And the City Guard, well, they rejected my evidence and dismissed the murders as isolated incidents...."

Investigate option #2 -- Did you show anyone the bones?

"I retrived a sack of human remains for you. Did you show it to the Guard?"

"I did. They said the remains could have scavangers looking for bits of gold and jewelry. They said there was no way to tell if the remains belonged to the missing women. I had no choice but do continue the investigation on my own."[/quote]

Emeric doesn't say one thing about presenting evidence to the Temlars or informing them of any new developments. He took his evidence to the City-Guard. From the beginning of the initial quest The First Sacrifice the Templars feel the murder of mundane women is a matter for the City-Guard-- And Emeric takes his new evidence to the Guard at the end of Act 1 and repeats the aforementioned Templar stance in Act 2. He did not take evidence to the Templars. He took it to the Guard-- because they have control of the case and also ssuming the Templars would not change their stance-- and the Guard rejected it. Meredith has nothing to do with it.

[quote]Yes, she is. Even Cullen says the Templars are at fault.[/quote]
SMH.


[quote]Talk to him after Leandra's death.[/quote]
I forget what this was even about.

[quote]Aside from the fact she's possessed by an evil artifact?[/quote]
And you don't know that until the very end of Act 3. It has no bearing on the rest of the Act.

[quote]That she authorized a death squad led by one of her handpicked extremists she personally chose for such an assignment?[/quote]
If you believe she handpicked Ser Mettin it is also possible she handpicked Ser Agatha and Ser Agatha does not want to kill the familes. There is no evidence to suggest Ser Mettin did not simply act roguishly. Loghain has the sadist Howe as his subordinate-- is he responsible for his every crime?

[quote]That she thinks only she can determine when she's capable of stepping down?[/quote]
And Loghain does not do the same?

[quote]The woman that sees blood magic as the result of any differing opinion?[/quote]
I think the threats you speak of can be interpretated in a more political in nature but as you prefer to metagame you will no doubt see it as lyrium idol corruption.

[quote]Yes, I can certainly see that madwoman being a great person for leadership in politics.[/quote]
Name calling? Loghain is a muderous, treasonous, and arrogant power mad bastard that should be let to rot on a darkspawn filled battle as he condemned his king and troops. He's a fantastic leader-- yeah right. /TwoCanPlayThatGame.

[quote]Yes, they do. Charm and charisma are key aspects of being in politics. See how far being blunt, rude, and all around unlikable gets you in politics.[/quote]
That comment had nothing to do with the topic of charisma. My comment was on the usefulness of merger.

[quote]Which is not applicable at all.[/quote]
I beg to differ.

[quote]Which could've been accomplished had the Templars done their job in the first place, since Emeric says in Act 2 when Hawke initially talks to him that he did bring all the evidence he was given in Act 1 to the Templars, who passed it off to the City Guard, who then ignored it.[/quote]
Wrong still.

[quote]The nobility have no say in what goes on in Kirkwall. Meredith ignores them for her own course of action.[/quote]
Oh? I really want proof of this? No such thing happens in my game. Many support Meredith and go on about their lives. And you have proof they have no say over economic policy? Over trade? Over business? Over mundane issues like sanitation or education and city upkeep? Proof that Meredith vetos the Magistrates? Proof that she interferes in the court systems? Proof that Meredith dismisses everything they do? Why are you so determined to paint Meredith as an evil overload?

[quote]She's completely unwilling to admit her own Templars' faults and actively promotes the extremists in her ranks, who end up causing more damage by oppressing the Mages, and aren't duly punished for their crimes.[/quote]
And your beloved Loghain is so different? Nah. Do you consider Cullen an extremeist? You advocate he take her place. He is her Knight-Captain.

How do you not know that there are simply Templars in the Order that-- while they may share Meredith's firmness against magic --abuse their positon without her approval.

[quote]Having a tragic backstory doesn't make one good at politics. Christ, what the hell does that have to do with her asenine decisions?[/quote]
Do not use the Lord's name in vain. Her story demonstrates her eloquence.

[quote]The fact that she won't even admit that the Templars are at fault for Quentin going as far as he did speaks volumes.[/quote]
They are not at fault for Quentin. You know who could have said something about Quentin however? Orsino.

[quote]And he can't do anything to stop him. Howe has control of the greater part of the Coastlands now and actively controls the capital city by this point. He presents a military threat if antagonized.[/quote]
So it's not Loghain's fault when someone who happens to be a supporter of his larger efforts abuses his power and position but it's Meredith's fault when her Templars do? Okay I get it.

[quote]In the Last Holdouts, no mages return to the Circle.[/quote]
No that's not true. If you talk to Meredith she says explicitly most of the Mages have already returned or been returned to the Circle without incident. That is why the quest is titled The Last Holdouts-- you must find the last holdouts.

[quote]Ser Mettin advocates the slaughter of the mage sympathizers that were with the mages, meaning the non-mages that were friendly to the Mages.[/quote]
I've already addressed Ser Mettin.

[quote]And On the Loose had Mages turn themselves over voluntarily.[/quote]
And so do mages in the aforementioned The Last Holdsout. It is stated through exposition.

[quote]Who had his mind broken because he's in a Circle that literally dragged him away in chains, beats Mages, and doesn't give one **** about Elves (as we see in one encounter with Templars)?[/quote]
So Huon was beat? You have proof of that? And Elves are in general better off in Circles than outside says David Gaider. You are a mage first and an elf second. I'm not certain of the example you are referring to but you would use one racist do describe the entire Templar Order?

[quote]She does drive them to it. Normal magic does not work against Templars, as they're capable of dispelling it. Blood magic does not suffer such problems.The extent of what she does only goes to the driving them towards blood magic, however. How they choose to use such magic and whether they allow themselves to be possessed is on their shoulders.[/quote]
As I said there are other solutions. Quiet rebellion. Strikes. Moderate Templars etc.

[quote]Because a hard test and a hard oppression are two equally comparable things.[/quote]
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" The Magi oppose necessary rules at every opportunity-- that is not oppression. Rules and precautions in place because the Circle situation is difficult with rebellious mages does not equal oppression. They won't cooperate with the Templars-- if you remind Orsino he opposes Meredith at every turn at the beginning of Act 3 during Showdown he says he is done cooperating.

[quote]I'm going to love to see the look on Pro-Templar/Pro-Chantry faces when it's revealed Andraste the Somniari OGB was a blood mage to boot.[/quote]
I also support Andraste as a blood mage. Or have you forgotten? Paint us all with a broad brush if you like however.

[quote]Because repeatedly have people discounted out of hand the beneficial applications of blood magic, including the capability to manipulate blood flow which, while used more often then not in abhorrent methods, can be used to control the blood flow of those seriously injured.[/quote]
And it is not blood magic itself that is so bothersome in my view in this situation. It is the intent which the mages use it-- that is my issue. The use it to usurp and control as Tarohne did. They use it as the main tool of Rebellion instead of exercising other options as Grace did. They use it to murder innocents once outside the Circle as Huon did. They would rather become maleficarum on the run and become exactly what the Templars believe they will should they ever taste freedom-- The Last Holdouts. And use it to augment their weak powers far beyond necessary as Jowan did. 

It is so very political in nature. Its an obvious sheathed weapon-- It's a flatout refusal to act legitimately-- it fosters the same mentality that led to the Circle separation. The Magi cannot stand on their own-- they will not be accepted or supported by anyone so long as they attempt to force change in such a manner.

[quote]Because of her mood swings. Her radical shifts are the problem, not what's said. What's said is sensible, but coming from her with those mood swings it seems unable to be taken seriously.[/quote]
Mood swings? Radical shifts? It is not mages she hates. It is their magic. She is consistent in her distate for magical ability but she doesn't hate the mage for it. She doesn't view the mages as sub-human. Her sister was a mage. She became a Templar simply so what happened to her sister and family would not happen to others.

[quote]Have Ser Agatha say it, and I'll believe it.[/quote]
What does she have to do with anything?

[quote]Sending someone who's bordering on the extreme to the actual extremist's camp where they're actively oppressing their charges is, in fact, sensible in a way. It's saying "Go here and see if you'd be willing to treat other people, Mage or no, like this."[/quote]
I don't think so. You don't think he would in his traumatized state instead nod his head and say "Yes, I agree. This is how it should be done."  You don't think that was far more likely? That is what happend after all.

[quote]It's a gamble, because it relies on Cullen's humanity.[/quote]
And completely ignores his state of mind after the Ferelden Tower incident.

[quote]Oh she most assuredly is.[/quote]
We should move on from this. We never agree on this point. If you wish to view Meredith as a black-and-white cartoon lunatic that is your prerogative.

[quote]"Magic is a cancer in the heart of our land". "The Circle will know fear". And her advocation that Orsino be clapped in irons for speaking the truth or executed for his talks of "treason".[/quote]
She may believe the first statement but that is rhetoric laid on thickly. And the second statement pertains to her leadership style. You can disagree but that does not mean it is invalid. She reminds me of the authoritarian parent and that parenting style flourishes in a variety of cultures.

[quote]She says exactly that. You may have to go a different rout of dialogue however after you tell her. I'm assuming you told her of those involved? IIRC in my lone Pro-Templar run, I did not and that's what I heard.[/quote]
She says at some point-- "And how but with blood magic could my oath sworn men [turn on me/something like that]." 

That would condmen her as rather arrogant but not a lunatic.

[quote]Oh for the love of God... Review the damn lore.[/quote]
Such a tone. And don't use the Lord's name in vain.

[quote]Now you're just dismissing anything that proves you wrong and I'll be honest, it's actually getting on my nerves.[/quote]
Imma act like I ain't eem read that... That is how its meant to work on paper but that is not reality. The First Enchanter and Knight Commander do not truly share power and that's one of the first things Pro-Mage supporters object to in the current Circle Situation. At best they grudgingly compromise-- and at worst the Knight-Commander will veto every disagreeable motion put forth by the First Enchanter. Check the White Spire situation in Asunder for example. Their First Enchanter is a powerless old man who can do nothing but acquiescence to Knight-Commander Eron-- whom even he has a decent relationship with-- and later the Lord Seeker wishes.

[quote]The Circles don't operate that way because the Chantry and Templars for the most part actively prevent it.[/quote]
And I omitted none of this from my comment. It was very much implied.

[quote]Whitewash the facts if you wish, you're doing your own arguments no credit. Ferelden is the only one that actually held true to how the Circles are supposed to be run.[/quote]
So keeping it 100 is whitewashing reality? Okay. Uphold the paper doctrine as you wish but don't accuse me of saying something I didn't.

[quote]Regardless of whether he'd be good or bad for it, my point is that he'd be better.[/quote]
So Meredith's handpicked Knight-Captain extremist is better? Apparently that's all she promotes...

[quote]Either he'd prove himself a slightly better fit for the roles of KC and Viscount, or he'd find it too much of a headache and only do the duty insofar as a new Viscount was elected, which would be Hawke. If he wasn't good at it, he'd step down from the role. If he was good at it, great. If he was only better then Meredith by a small amount, also great. Certainly, Meredith's not setting a very high bar.[/quote]
And I will not have this discussion again. End of story. Believe what you will about Cullen. I have said all I am willing to on the matter.

[quote]I've seen enough to know that she isn't doing her job well.[/quote]
So what you are really saying is you don't know but you will condemn Meredith's rule as one that destroys the city in all facets because you dislike her?

[quote]The nobility do not like her one bit. Only a few lemmings will support her, and that's only if the Champion supports her. But it's known regardless of Hawke's stance that noble families are opposing her. Not just Marlein Selbrech and her friends, but other nobles as well.[/quote]
So you know all the Nobles and know every last one's opinion of Meredith? Okay.

[quote]In Orlais of all places? The nation that reveres the female knight Ser Aveline? The place that considers all women who enter knighthood as being worht praise?[/quote]
They really don't. That's just a story. Evangeline's mother does not at all appreciate her daughter's ambitions. She all but disowns her. I fact she may disown her. I can't remember exactly. It is expected she will become a proper Orlesian Lady-- fancy dresses and parties to play hostess at and be a fine marriage prospect for a rich Noble's son and not chase a man's pursuit.

[quote]Seriously? That makes me question what was going through DG's head. It's known female knights are seen more in Orlais then elsewhere. Why should she be ashamed if her father was a Chevalier? If her nation is open to the prospect?[/quote]
I don't think that's the case. Its a heart-warming story but its pretty much for five year olds. She can become a Knight but the expectations she bears are still present. I'm rather certain she became a Templar instead of a Knight because being a Knight would have been more embarassing to her mother-- she'd have been more visible in the Emperor's army to the Nobles.

[quote]I'm sorry but... what? I'm not saying I don't believe you on this, it just seems to be some.... really odd things for Evangeline to think.[/quote]
It's not odd. It's just the reality of things. Orlesian Ladies are expected to remain such. Not play at war even if they are lawfully premitted to do so. /Culture

[quote]Eh, I'll admit, it does seem to be rather... blinded.[/quote]
Extremely so.

[quote]It doesn't make her a Mary Sue, because that for me would mean everyone's fawning at her specialness, but I'll admit she's not a very good Templar all the time. Her only mark of doing her duty is the aforementioned tavern incident.[/quote]
Don't get me started... The Divine fawns over her specialness.

[quote]Not the same situations at all. Context is different for the Grey Wardens.[/quote]
Ooooooh??? So its not the same thing-- Is the principle not the same? It would be rather hypocritical to say one shouldn't but the other is okay to do so considering neither is supposedly meant to or designed to engage in politics.

[quote]No. Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it didn't happen. What that means is that the people who tell you about it -- Ser Marlein Selbrech -- don't trust you to help them, and rightly so because you're helping Meredith -- the very person she's opposed to. The fact is that you are told by the second person omniscient journal that Meredith handpicked Mettin for the task of leading a death squad.[/quote]
I never said it didn't happen. I said it didn't happen in my game so using it as proof against Meredith is fallacious.

[quote]There is no "acting roguishly" at all. Saying such is trying to be an apologist for Meredith.[/quote]
But saying such of Howe is never being apologetic for Loghain.<_< Yes. I think we're done here.

[quote]She picked him for the role because of his extremism.[/quote]
And you were with Meredith when she assigned him? She said I'm selecting you because I know you will kill innocent families? She couldn't have selected him because he has past experience with hunting blood mages? Because it was his turn on on the rotation. How do you know Cullen didn't assign him the task?

Your views are not flexible and I am rather tired repeating myself. If there is a good reason for this debate to continue respond as you wish but I'd rather never engage in another discussion on these topics with you again.
It's pointless.

I'd rather talk about Scandal-- the best political drama airing on network TV. Does anyone here watch it?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 mai 2013 - 12:34 .

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I know how disingenious the two of you are being, that's for certain.

Condemning thousands of men, women, and children for refusing to serve the Chantry anymore after a millennia of oppression and subjugation, and acting as though that refusal is a declaration of war when the templars are the ones who are taking action to attack the mages, is incredibly disingenious of you two.

I'm also not certain why you think a silly picture is going to change how insubstantial such an argument actually is.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have the Circles of Magi declared war on mundanes? No.

We did not state they had. Do not strech our words or intent. And it remains the public will not welcome the Magi as they wage war in their countryside. The Magi only blacken their already ugly image and reputation.

I'm addressing what was explicitly stated. Severing ties with the Chantry and the Templar Order isn't a declaration of war. Deciding to attack men, women, and children is, on the other hand. There's a difference. I don't see why I need to explain it to you.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have the templars defected from the Chantry to hunt down men, women, and children for refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry anymore? Yes. Are the two of you blaming thousands men, women, and children because they want to be free of an oppressive regime that has spread fear and intolerance against them, to the point of committing genocide against an entire population of innocent people (see: Circle of Kirkwall and Circle of Rivain)? Yes. The leadership made a democratic vote to seperate themselves from the Chantry and the templars. Instead of living in subjugation to an anti-mage religious order where mages can be tranquil without contesting the charges against them, where the Chantry and the templars have dominion over mages in the name of the Maker, the mages finally freed themselves from tyranny and oppression. 

The mages emancipated themselves from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. They didn't declare war on anyone. Nor does anything that MiserJB said demand that mages bend knee to the Chantry or the Templar Order for another millennia.

Pointing out that Andrastians have negative and hostile views towards mages is the result of the preachings of the Chantry, which is precisely why mages are so reviled and hated among the people living in the Andrastian kingdoms - in comparison to many non-Andrastian societies where mages aren't controlled by templars, where mages and magic aren't reviled. The fact that you and MiserJB are so disingeious as to ignore the fact that it's the templars who are trying to kill thousands of men, women, and children for refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry or the Templar Order is precisely what I know. 

Very nice rhetoric but you and I have this debate before and my position has not changed. It is pointless to rehash an old argument. Suffice it to say, war should never be a first option. It should always be the last.

Perhaps that should be explained to the armed and armored soldiers who decided to murder men, women, and children for refusing to be slaves anymore.

Youth4Ever wrote...

And the mages are not blameless in this current situation. That is a truth.

The mages aren't under any obligation to accept Chantry or templar oppression, no matter how badly you might wish it were otherwise.

Youth4Ever wrote...

If you favor Anders' stance embrace it. That is your opinion to have. But do not suggest your way is absolutely the only way, or that it is inherently better, that the separation-decision was not tyrannical, or that the Circle of Magi is in reality across the board as horrible as you feel it to be. 

It was a democratic decision to severe ties with the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, not tyrannical. What's tyrannical is the Chantry and the Templar Order imposing their will on people simply for being mages, and using religion to dominate these people.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I know how disingenious the two of you are being, that's for certain.

Condemning thousands of men, women, and children for refusing to serve the Chantry anymore after a millennia of oppression and subjugation, and acting as though that refusal is a declaration of war when the templars are the ones who are taking action to attack the mages, is incredibly disingenious of you two.

I'm also not certain why you think a silly picture is going to change how insubstantial such an argument actually is.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have the Circles of Magi declared war on mundanes? No.

We did not state they had. Do not strech our words or intent. And it remains the public will not welcome the Magi as they wage war in their countryside. The Magi only blacken their already ugly image and reputation.

I'm addressing what was explicitly stated. Severing ties with the Chantry and the Templar Order isn't a declaration of war. Deciding to attack men, women, and children is, on the other hand. There's a difference. I don't see why I need to explain it to you.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have the templars defected from the Chantry to hunt down men, women, and children for refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry anymore? Yes. Are the two of you blaming thousands men, women, and children because they want to be free of an oppressive regime that has spread fear and intolerance against them, to the point of committing genocide against an entire population of innocent people (see: Circle of Kirkwall and Circle of Rivain)? Yes. The leadership made a democratic vote to seperate themselves from the Chantry and the templars. Instead of living in subjugation to an anti-mage religious order where mages can be tranquil without contesting the charges against them, where the Chantry and the templars have dominion over mages in the name of the Maker, the mages finally freed themselves from tyranny and oppression. 

The mages emancipated themselves from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. They didn't declare war on anyone. Nor does anything that MiserJB said demand that mages bend knee to the Chantry or the Templar Order for another millennia.

Pointing out that Andrastians have negative and hostile views towards mages is the result of the preachings of the Chantry, which is precisely why mages are so reviled and hated among the people living in the Andrastian kingdoms - in comparison to many non-Andrastian societies where mages aren't controlled by templars, where mages and magic aren't reviled. The fact that you and MiserJB are so disingeious as to ignore the fact that it's the templars who are trying to kill thousands of men, women, and children for refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry or the Templar Order is precisely what I know. 

Very nice rhetoric but you and I have this debate before and my position has not changed. It is pointless to rehash an old argument. Suffice it to say, war should never be a first option. It should always be the last.

Perhaps that should be explained to the armed and armored soldiers who decided to murder men, women, and children for refusing to be slaves anymore.

Youth4Ever wrote...

And the mages are not blameless in this current situation. That is a truth.

The mages aren't under any obligation to accept Chantry or templar oppression, no matter how badly you might wish it were otherwise.

Youth4Ever wrote...

If you favor Anders' stance embrace it. That is your opinion to have. But do not suggest your way is absolutely the only way, or that it is inherently better, that the separation-decision was not tyrannical, or that the Circle of Magi is in reality across the board as horrible as you feel it to be. 

It was a democratic decision to severe ties with the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, not tyrannical. What's tyrannical is the Chantry and the Templar Order imposing their will on people simply for being mages, and using religion to dominate these people.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]I see no Qunari corpses save for one, that is shown to have been the Guardsmen's work. If they took down any Qunari, I wouldn't have fought them throughout the upper levels. Or I would have seen evidence.[/quote]
You hate the Templars so much you won't give them some obvious credit? Okay.[/quote]

I can't believe this. I don't even get how anyone can argue that the Templars weren't fighting Qunari when we were shown ingame that they were based on Meredith's appearance with her Templar force. Do we need it spelled out completely with major cut scenes that she was fighting Qunari?? Heck when aveline tried to explain the situation Meredith cut her off telling her that she knows what the situation is and doesn't need a report. it's obvious the Templars were fighting Qunari. Saying that they weren't based on gameplay is ridiculous. 


[quote]
[quote]Second, if they turn on you first by launching a riot then you put it down.[/quote]
You cannot put down an angry city.[/quote]

I find it odd that it's okay to "put down" rioting citizens but not rebellious mages.

And you're right, Meredith and Loghain are like two peas in a pod. I like them and hate them at the same time.

[quote]
[quote]And Loghain didn't betray his king.[/quote]
By law yes he did. There is no way around that.[/quote]

Right.

[quote]

[quote]For ****'s sake, I'm getting tired of all this nonsense because it stems from people having a heavily romanticized viewpoint on warfare when they know nothing about how war works. That's what I've seen time and time again on these forums, and it pisses me off to no end.[/quote]
Language...

It is not nonsense. Because we disagree it's nonsense? You can support Loghain in his decision but he abandoned his king.[/quote]

Dude needs a Valium. What Loghain did had nothing to do with warfare anyway. He planned to abandon Calian ahead of time and had his his allies removed from him before the Ostagar fight. That alone is treasonous behavior and a makes what he did a planned act of murder. 


[quote]They are not at fault for Quentin. You know who could have said something about Quentin however? Orsino.[/quote]

Don't you get it? Orsino has no voice! He's powerless to stop anything! He can't even leave the Circle! Unless it's to speak publicly in Hightown and have private meetings with the Grand Cleric...


[quote]
[quote]And On the Loose had Mages turn themselves over voluntarily.[/quote]
And so do mages in the aforementioned The Last Holdsout. It is stated through exposition.[/quote]

Didn't On the Loose had only one mage who turned himself in cause he wasn't even a blood mage and was harmless overall?

[quote]
[quote]I'm going to love to see the look on Pro-Templar/Pro-Chantry faces when it's revealed Andraste the Somniari OGB was a blood mage to boot.[/quote]
I also support Andraste as a blood mage. Or have you forgotten? Paint us all with a broad brush if you like however.[/quote]

lol!! Pretty much this. When I found out Hawke's father used blood magic I was okay with it desipite my earlier opinion that no one should use it. Based on what we know of him in game. He's a good man who isn't running around with demons crawling out of his rear, and he used it because he was forced to do so. He used it responsibly. Most mages are too weak to handle such power and shouldn't be dabbling in something they are too stupid or weak to control.

Malcolm Hawke: "My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."

Sadly something that flies right over the heads of about a good 90% of mages and 99% of blood mages.

[quote]
I'd rather talk about Scandal-- the best political drama airing on network TV. Does anyone here watch it?
[/quote]

Never heard of it, what's it about?

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Youth4Ever is acting like this is the first response made by the mages, when they have had to endure the Chantry controlled Circles for nearly a millennia? Because both of them are condemning men, women, and children for refusing to live their lives in servitude?

Actually, I'm not mad. I simply pointed out how inaccurate you were in stating that the mages started a war by refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry or the Templar Order. Autonomy isn't a declaration of war, while an entire group of armed and armored soldiers actively trying to kill people for being born a certain way is. There is a relatively simple difference between the two.

Since the armed and armored soldiers decided to kill thousands of men, women, and children for emancipating themselves from their rule, I don't see how your statement has any merit.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages didn't declare war; the templars left the Chantry of Andraste to hunt down men, women, and children, so they are the ones who have declared war on the mages for refusing to live their lives on their knees. What you and the rest of the pro-templars in this thread continue to do is ignore the facts: the mages have endured the subjugation of the Chantry controlled Circles for nearly a millennia, and they finally decided that enough was enough, so they broke free. That's it. No declaration of war; they simply refuse to live their lives in service to the Chantry or the templars anymore. The fact that you and the rest of the pro-templars in this thread are acting like the mages weren't trying hard enough with their oppressors, or making factually inaccurate statements about the mages declaring war simply because the mages won't accept Chantry domination anymore, is what makes your line of thought so fallacious.

You seem to consistently make inaccurate statements. I'm not mad; I'm pointing out that your statements don't really make any sense. It's not too difficult to point out that autonomy isn't a declaration of war; it's relatively simple. The templars started the war the moment the Order decided to kill thousands of people for democratically deciding to establish their autonomy from a tyrannical organization that lead to the rape, torture, murder, illegal tranquility, and genocide of entire populations of innocent people over the centuries.

Youth4Ever wrote...

I've already made it several months ago. No need to repeat myself.

For your convenience: http://social.biowar...9286/2#14406721

A statement which is invalidated by the simple fact that the mages voted for autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, while the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars entered a course of action to murder thousands of people for being free.

Youth4Ever wrote...

@Silfren; And you never responded to my posts, so I assume you don't have an argument to make against them?

If the above is any indication, I can see why Silfren has no interest in discussing the matter with you.

[lil yonce]

 @Hazegurl; Did you start that drinking game yet?

Just started the count after your last post and that's seven shots you need to take now with the double post.   

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 mai 2013 - 12:09 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]I don't think I've ever managed to get one...at least not that I remember(haven't played in a while)...I guess my Warden-Mage can't be First Enchanter.  But on the bright side, my girl would lay low until all the warmongering idiots are killed. Besides she was smart enough to ask for a title and some land at the end of Origins, not to mention she's banging a King on the side, so it's all good. 

Now that I think about it, my Warden-Mage was a Lucrosian before I even knew what they were lol![/quote]
LOL. Yeah she was! Women's intuition.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

I can't believe this. I don't even get how anyone can argue that the Templars weren't fighting Qunari when we were shown ingame that they were based on Meredith's appearance with her Templar force. Do we need it spelled out completely with major cut scenes that she was fighting Qunari?? Heck when aveline tried to explain the situation Meredith cut her off telling her that she knows what the situation is and doesn't need a report. it's obvious the Templars were fighting Qunari. Saying that they weren't based on gameplay is ridiculous.[/quote]
Thank you. Its pretty obvious.

[quote]I find it odd that it's okay to "put down" rioting citizens but not rebellious mages. [/quote]
I know. At that point you blood magic has corroupted the Circle and the situation tense from all the quests you've done. And what are you going to do? Put the RoA on hold while you kill the public first? Put them down and then call the RoA on the Circle? What is the point in that?

[quote]And you're right, Meredith and Loghain are like two peas in a pod. I like them and hate them at the same time.[/quote]
I love their complexity though I think Loghain is more of a jerk than Meredith was.

[quote]

By law yes he did. There is no way around that.[/quote]

[quote]Right.[/quote]
I think that's just a fact. You can agree that it was the right thing to do but it doesn't change the facts. Desertion is against the law. Calculated abandonment of your king is treason.

[quote]Dude needs a Valium. What Loghain did had nothing to do with warfare anyway. He planned to abandon Calian ahead of time and had his his allies removed from him before the Ostagar fight. That alone is treasonous behavior and a makes what he did a planned act of murder. [/quote]
Sho' nuff.

[quote]Don't you get it? Orsino has no voice! He's powerless to stop anything! He can't even leave the Circle! Unless it's to speak publicly in Hightown and have private meetings with the Grand Cleric...[/quote]
Orsino just did some dumb things in my book.

[quote]Didn't On the Loose had only one mage who turned himself in cause he wasn't even a blood mage and was harmless overall?[/quote]
Yeah On The Loose had one fake blood mage and he turns himself in if you prompt him to do so. I do because he doesn't have a clue about how to make it outside the Circle. Meredith takes him back with Hawke's assurance he's not a legit blood mage. I choose the aggressive response that went like, "This fool was out here claiming to be a blood mage so he could girls! What an idiot." And the smile on her face was hilarious. I think she even chuckled before saying they would take him back without any issues or punishments.

[quote]lol!! Pretty much this. When I found out Hawke's father used blood magic I was okay with it desipite my earlier opinion that no one should use it. Based on what we know of him in game. He's a good man who isn't running around with demons crawling out of his rear, and he used it because he was forced to do so. He used it responsibly. Most mages are too weak to handle such power and shouldn't be dabbling in something they are too stupid or weak to control. 

Malcolm Hawke: "My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."

Sadly something that flies right over the heads of about a good 90% of mages and 99% of blood mages.[/quote]
Yep. There wasn't a blood mage in Kirkwall that wasn't trying to get power, rebel, indulge in a killing spree, control, etc. There wasn't a Malcolm Hawke among them.

[quote]Never heard of it, what's it about?[/quote]
OMG. I could talk about it all night! I'll give you a link to Hulu to the latest episode but one simply can't be caught up on Scandal! Its like being caught up on Dragon Age when you haven't played DAO or DA2! There is so much going on in each episode.

But Olivia Pope is a specialized attorney working in Washington DC with her close group of associates. Their motto-- Gladiators in Suits.

They call her "The Fixer." When you have a media crisis that you want solved you go to her. She helps all kinds. In one episode they help a rich oil tycoon who helped rig a Presidential Election get back his kidnapped daughter and one of your underlings asks, "Why are we helping the Devil?" And she responds, "Because even the Devil loves his children." She's a morally grey character-- carrying on an affair with the President of the US she's hooked up so good in Washington.

She also helped that oil tycoon rig the Presidential Election she wanted her man to win so badly and thought he was so good for the job. She's a side piece-- he's married and the First Lady is an awesome character and you really feel for both of them.

Oliva loves her friends and associates that work for her but she's willing to screw them over, and has, for the supposed greater good even if she hates that she has to.

She outs the head of the CIA as a mole and later redoes her whole investigation when he turns up dead and his widow shows up at her office claiming her husband was a patriot.

Its a great show. I watch it every week. Dragon Age could borrow some of the awesome political situations Scandal makes use of.

We'll move convo this to PMs.

Scandal-- http://www.hulu.com/scandal

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

This is back from page 6, but we Youth4ever and I never finished our discussion, and I'd hate to let her have the last word on it.

[/quote]
And for a while I thought you were going to be a gentleman about it. [/quote]

I happen to be a....perfect....gentlemen.

[quote]
[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

They should have a standing army The Red Irons mercenary force isn't the only one, as we ran afoul the Winters in Act 1. There's the city guard, and we know that the nobles of their own forces as well, as part of the Red Irons quest in Act 1 to kill that one noble, the force sent ahead of you were destroyed by Harriman's men.[/quote]
Mercenary groups won't let you use their men without it benefiting them substantially. In that regard they are no better than the Templars, and worse you'd be dealing with a roughneck or criminal element. You would rely on that to protect your city? You would associate your city with such an element? You think the Nobility will agree to that? And I did not see them anywhere in evidence during the Qunari attack. The Templars have impact. And if the private forces of the Nobility were truly substanial I suspect the City Guard would not need to conscript during wartime.

While combined the groups you mentioned could be formidable they simply are not the templars. They are not a large military trained warrior order with impressive weapons and armor. They also have Chantry clout-- attacking the Templars is attaking the Chantry as a whole and they have a vested interest in Kirkwall. Another advantage.[/quote]
[quote]The free marches aren't a unified nation. It's a series of 
city-states similar to ancient greece. Starkhaven and Kirkwall are two
completely different kingdoms within the same continent.[/quote]
I'm confused. Where did I mention Starkhaven?

[quote]Kirkwall doesn't exactly have the resources to maintain a standing army.[/quote]
That is why they need the Templar Army conveniently in the Gallows. [/quote]

Paid for on Chantry resources.

As far as I can tell, the Chantry povides for the templars. If there is lore or evidence that says otherwise and I'm not aware of, then please let me know. I'm not 100% confident about this fact, but I haven't seen anything that says otherwise, so until then I'm going to assume that Kirkwall is only providing the quarters for the templars in the Gallows, and the Chantry pays for their supplies.

[quote]
[quote]The templars are drug addicts. They suffer lyrium withdrawal and it may result in insanity, a loss in understanding of the world around you, and even death. [/quote]
Lyrium intake makes them efficient at nullifying magical attack. Another advantage over or a conventional army should your enemies bring mages to attack.[/quote]

And yet Alistair could do it no problem without ever taking lyrium. He never took his vows and as such, never imbibed lyrium. Gaider has tried to retract that piece of lore, but fact of the matter is, it's in the game. They might say Alistair may be a bit of an exception, and that rare humans can do it and become possible Seeker candidates (which would explain why the Grand Cleric didn't want to lose him), or maybe elves could learn the ability without lyrium and there is a possibility that Alistair is half-elven given the possible connection to Fiona.

Until we learn more about it, Alistair stands as proof that lyrium is not required to negate mana and spells.

[quote]
[quote]The templars are an army, loyal to the Chantry first [...] than to the country they live in...[/quote]
But the Chantry/Templars have great interest in Kirkwall. They will not betray the city if that is your worry or deny it defense when promised.[/quote]

.....need I mention Orlais? Mage and templar war. The templars are abandoing the chantry and their countries to hunt mages.

The templar order as a whole is prioritizing killing mages over defense as of the end of  Asunder. They've already betrayed the Chantry, the Divine, and whatever country's they live in in the areas they are hunting mages.

And besides, last I checked, templars don't swear allegiance to the country they live in, or the city-state. They are part of the Chantry.

[quote]
[quote]...and they have far more political power than they should have[/quote]
It is a fair enough opinion to feel the Chantry/Templars should not have political sway, but so long as they have wealth and an army that are called on in times of need, it is also reasonable to believe they will indeed reap benefits from their efforts.

Do you also feel an organization like the Grey Wardens has no business in politcs despite the situation in Ferelden and the Anderfels?[/quote]

I do. The Grey Warden in Origins was mired in politics when there shouldn't have been a need for it. I believe the Wardens must be completely neutral politically, otherwise you get moments like Loghain seeing the Wardens as Orlesians first and fore-most or Wardens like Sophia Dryden who tried to turn the Wardens into an army so she could take the throne, and killers of darkspawn second. Or the First Warden telling our Warden in Awakening that a Warden being given political power was a precedent that they wanted to milk for all it was worth, to build up the importance of wardens.

So long as Wardens are completely neutral, they can fight the darkspawn in any country without being seen as political opportunists or allies of any nation.

Politics and efficiency are often exclusive to each other. I share Duncan's views on the darkspawn. "I believe the darkspawn need to be defeated, one way or another. My opinion ends there."

[quote]
[quote]and the lyrium needed to keep each and every one of them on their fix is daunting and expensive.[/quote]
The city does not pay for their upkeep or their lyrium and providing it has never been an issue for the Chantry.[/quote]

That's because the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and that supports my argument that Kirkwall doesn't maintain the templar army, the Chalntry does.

[quote]
[quote]Gather the mercenary groups and the soldiers of each noble house and the city guard, and you'll have an army, that may not be as well trained or as well equipped, but will ultimately be far more reliable in the long run, without the need for lyrium.[/quote]
This sounds closer to a militia and not an army and I don't know that I would call the more reliable.[/quote]

There's historical, real world and Thedas history, of militias besting professional armies.

One such event is Orzammar under King Bemot. He declared that all the soldiers of the noble houses answered only to the king during times of conflict, and ignored the nobles to create his own army to battle the darkspawn with, and was more successful than most kings. Paragon Aeducan ignored politics and gathered all the soldiers he could, ignored the Assembly about which thaigs should be protected, and saved Orzammar from destruction.

Kal'Hirol had a small army of untrained casteless hold a last stand similar to the Battle of Thermopolie and the Spartans, and held off the darkspawn for five straight days, giving the other dwarves time to evacuate to Orzammar.

Loghain had the elven rangers of his, their official name I can't quite remember off the top of my head at the moment, and they were VERY effective in the war against Orlais. Heck, Ferelden's army might as well be called a giant militia at times.

I say with the right leaders, an army of mercenaries, guardsmen and noble house soldiers would be quite dependable.

[quote]
[quote]Were I the Qunari Arishok, and I were fighting the templars, the very first thing I would do would be to take all the lyrium from the Chantry stores, and either use it to make explosives or destroy it and keep the templars from getting it. The templars would in short order be suffering mass lyrium withdrawal as the Chantry controls the lyrium trade.[/quote]
Templars do not enter lyrium withdrawl for at least a week and can function afterwards even so. And that appears to be older Templars. Younger Templars may fair better. Even Samson functions relatively well without a steady intake of lyrium. He is an older Templar and he hasn't lost his mind or had serverly negative side affects. And lyrium supplies could be sent to the Templars from a nearby Circle in the Free Marches along with reinforcements. I'd imagine an Exhalted March would certainly be in the works as well. And this is assuming lyrium is kept in a place where the Templars cannot readily access it. Lord Seeker Lambert has no issue providing Ser Evangeline with lyrium before she departs for Adamant and I'm rather certain he did not leave the White Spire to acuqire it.[/quote]

I would also use, as Etheral suggested, the Gaatlock. Fact of the matter is, the templars dependence on lyrium may be a strength in enhancing their templar powers, or giving them it based on which game's lore you use, but it's also their biggest weakness.

Lambert is the head of the Seekers, overseer of the templars, and supposedly answers only to the Divine, whom he ignores frequently. At his rank, he'd have access to the Chantry's stores of lyrium. It can't ALL be at the White Spire, because the Chantry is an international religion. They have to have storehouses throughout the world, under heavy guard. But the Chantry is the only reliable source on the surface to acquire it, as they have a trade monopoly with the dwarves...who keep most of it for themselves and their smiths and enchanters.

[quote]
[quote]Hardly reliable as an army. In order to pay for lyrium from smugglers, the templars would be forced to raze the countryside for resources. Most would soon go insane or die from the withdrawal alone. [/quote]
A very realiable army, the size of which cannot be found elsewhere in Thedas. Meredith's contingent is the largest in Thedas and the Templars as a united whole, should you truly draw ther ire, are a force to be reckoned with.[/quote]

I know. But they are scattered throughout every country of Thedas, minus areas where the Chant of Light isn't sung (like Orzammar and Qunari held lands) and that's how they were able to conquer the Dales. After Orlais was getting their hiny kicked by the Dalish, an exalted march was called and the Dalish had to face EVERY nation of Thedas.

I don't think that's possible now, because there's so much chaos going on at the moment. Orlais is in a civil war, the templar have rebelled against the Chantry, some members of the Orlesian nobility is looking at Ferelden and want their province back, the Qunari might invade, Tevinter has been quite active as well, and the awakened darkspawn haven't gone away, so there's a constant threat of a mini-blight like the one the Mother unleashed.

I honestly don't think the templar order can muster all their forces like they have been able to before they left the Chantry. They've lost access to Chantry resources and now need to get lyrium themselves. And an army marches on its stomach, so they also need to find enough food to provide for them, again, without the Chantry their primary provider is gone, as well as maintain all their arms and armor.

[quote]
[quote]And Meredith consistently working to seize political power. Even before Act 1, when Hawke gets off the boat, Meredith is calling the shots and the guard says he doesn't know what would happen if the Viscount ever went against what Meredith wanted.[/quote]
She would deny him marital support the city needs. That's what I would do. Kirkwall can't afford that as we know.[/quote]

And so we acknowledge that Meredith had all the power in Kirkwall and was involved in politics before the game even began. Her duty was to safeguard the mages from the people, and the people from the mages. Not run a city.

[quote]
[quote]And we don't know that lyrium creates mages, or a thin veil. We know lyrium exposure is very dangerous to non-dwarves and can be deadly at times, and we know through the developers that mages have an easier time using magic as the veil thins, but the thinner the veil, the chances of abominations and demons coming through of their own volition increases. There is no in-game or book evidence that suggests that a thin veil actually creates mages.[/quote]
Direct exposure to lyrium harms mages but in small amounts it apparently produces mages. The Talking-Man in the Hanged Man suspects lyrium in the water as the culprit. And it makes sense when you think about it. Lyrium is described as the "stuff of creation". Mages can create ice, fire, stone, etc. from nothing. IMO that is evidence mages have a tiny bit of lyrium in their blood-- just enough that it is not fatal but allows them peform magic.[/quote]

Really? That explanation doesn't take into account the fact that it's implied tha mages numbers are increasing internationally, and not just in Kirkwall. Lyrium cannot be the only connection or attribute to it.

Isolde's son Connor is a mage, but if Connor is killed, Eamon and Isolde have a daughter, and she too is a mage.  We know Isolde had magic in her family, so it looks like genetics also is a factor, and we cannot blame lyrium.

Elven lore says that at one time every elf was a mage. Since lyrium still effects elves negatively, that can't be lyrium.

Or Inquisition may come out and say lyrium is a factor and prove me wrong entirely. But as of the moment, we do not have the evidence to say that lyrium creates mages.

[quote]
[quote]While the Qunari were holding all of High Town hostage, where the city guard was already located. And the guard were taken by surprise, the templars, being stationed on 
an island outside of the main city, could gather their forces, organize,
and launch an attack themselves where the Guard could not. It's quite likely that because the templars weren't there, that allowed them to gather the numbers to charge. The mages as an organiztion isn't allowed outside of the Gallows, so they wouldn't be a standing army ready to charge the Qunari lines. The chantry would never allow it. [/quote]
I take that back. The Templars did not come from the Gallows. Hawke comes from Lowtown and when he arrives Meredith and Orsino are already in Hightown. If they had come from the Gallows they should have been behind Hawke. It's only a very small group present with Meredith that battles the Qunari. Can't believe I missed that.[/quote]

Not necessarily true. Orsino and the mages were already there. Hawke was just taken down by Serrabaas and then Meredith steps in. We don't see where she and the templars come from.

But it's also quite likely as well. So that would mean that Meredith and her small contingent weren't making headway against the Qunari. They were either scattered by the Qunari attack and regouped where they could, or were already in the city in small numbers. And since she didn't have the numbers to take on the Qunari and rush in to face the Arishok (which she SOOO wanted to do) she had to take care of reinforcements so that Hawke could go face the Arishok.

*shrug* In this case, the evidence says either of us could be right.

[quote]
[quote]Although I would like to know what Orsino an his entorage were doing in High Town themselves. Looking for Quentin to bring him to justice? Purchasing supplies for the Circle? I honestly have no idea. [/quote]
Most likely meeting with Meredith and Elthina in the Chantry. And there is no evidence Orsino was so ignorant to the nature of Quentin's research.[/quote]

And there is no evidence that he was completely complicit either. He knew about it, but did he know how Quentin was going about it? That's a question with no definitive answer. And if he was meeting Meredith and Elthina, then okay, cool. Either way, we had a powerful mage who could take on all the Qunari by himself at the Keep, Hawke, and a contingent of templars under Meredith righ there in the area.

[quote]
[quote]Don't forget that Orsino single handedly can take care of the brigade of qunari at the keep, and draws them away for Hawke to sneak in. Imagine what an army of mages could do in that situation. [/quote]
He is not shown fighting those Qunari and considering he and his mages were decimated in Hightown when Hawke finds him, I would think that an overestimation of his abilities. He is the sole survivor and that very much seems like a stroke of luck.[/quote]

And still takes on all the qunariby himself. We don't know how many qunari it took to take down him and his group of mages, but those qunari wouldn't have had any survivors either. Otherwise Orsino would've been locked up and lips sewn shut himself or dead.

[quote]
[quote]And everyone was taken off guard anyway.

[/quote]
And yet the Templars with Hawke in tow take care of business while the City-Guard flounders.[/quote]

We don't know how the templars were doing before joining forces with Hawke. They were few in number like you said earlier. They could've been out of the fighting when it began, they could've been on the outskirts, or they could've gathered forces and fought their way to the keep, and only a few of them survived.

In the chaos of a battle, it's hard to say which is the truth, and we're never told. It could be you are overestimating their abilities.

[quote]
[quote]Right. Let me quote the guard when Hawke first arrives. The guard says no more refugees were allowed in Kirkwall, by Knight-Commander Meredth's orders. Hawke questions this, saying Knight-Commander is a templar title. The guard shrugs and says "Sure. But I don't know what would happen if Viscount Dumar went against something Meredith wanted."  She was already running the show. She was simply doing it from behind the scenes. It's not until Act 3 that she's completely open about it.[/quote]
There is a difference between arm-twisting-- having the attention of a ruler-- and ruling yourself. Deciding policy yourself. Negotiating directly with the Nobility etc. She is the military power in Kirkwall and while very significant, Meredith does not have the benefit of actually ruling the city.[/quote]

Until she illegally has it in Act 3 and then proceeds to keep the city from ruling itself by not allowing the nobles to choose a new Viscount, and pretty much declares only SHE can determine when to step down. And tries kicking Aveline out of the Captaincy so the templars could consolidate power, and having death squads killing mages, mages non-mage families and mage sympathizers, led by an extremist she hand-picked.

[quote]
[quote]She doesn't. She simply forces at worst, or allows the extremists she promotes like Ser Kerras, Ser Alrik and Ser Mettin to create situations where the mage will either get raped and illegally tranquilized, killed on trumped up charges, or fight back and justify being killed anyway.[/quote]
Why does everyone assume Meredith allows this? Does Loghain allow Howe to torture his subjects? Do you hold him responsible for Howe's actions?[/quote]

I don't hold Loghain responsible for Howe's actions for many reasons, and I hold Meredith responsible for her subordinates actions for many reasons, which I will now discuss.

Teyrn Loghain: Loghain wasn't Howe's direct superior. Howe was the arle of Amaranthine, and had since seized control of Denerim and Highever, thus giving him full economic and military control of all the coastlands. Loghain was fighting a war against the bannorn. Howe gave military and economic support of Loghain because Loghain gave Howe more influence and power.

Much like Loghain wasn't the Cousland's direct superior, but they answered the call of the King to muster their forces to fight the darkspawn. Their men were still under the cousland banner, and thus their command, Loghain isn't Howe's direct superior. Antagonizing Howe could've cost Loghain much needed men and supplies for the army, something he desperately needed to keep going in his attempt to unify Ferelden to fight the darkspawn...even if he was a pisspoor speaker at the Landsmeet.

Loghain relied on the support of the banns and arls so he could have an army to fight with, and those nobles are responsible for what they do. Loghain only becomes responsible when he and their men are on the field, and he's responsible for what they do while under his command.

Howe was a nobleman, directly responsible for himself and his men and the actions they committed, and so long as Loghain was out in the field and Howe was not, then Howe is responsible for Howe, and the evidence of his wrongdoing does not link to Loghain.

He was given his power by Loghain. He already had it or seized it.

Meredith: Meredith on the other hand, is part of a military organization and answers to the Chantry. As Knight-Commander, she is not allowed to hold a title or land. Having been made Knight-Commander by Elthina (years before Orsino became First Enchanter) she proceeded to immediately enact policies that limited the already limited mage freedom.

Alrik, Kerras, and Metten were Knight-Lieutanant's under Meredith's direct chain of command. She appointed them personally. Cullen's codex entry specifically says he was made Knight-Captain because he shared Meredith's view of mages.

Because of the direct chain of command in a military organization, and as the person who appointed them in the first place to their positions of power, that makes Meredith directly responsible for their actions. It is her responsibility to investigate her subordinates, and to punish them for their misconduct. In any military organization, the commander can be court martialed if they do not keep their subordinates in line, and are held responsible alongside the perpetrators.

Because Loghain wasn't Howe's direct military superior in the chain of command, Loghain isn't blamed for Howe's crimes, and the Landsmeet also agrees with this. Try linking Loghain to Howe without the support of the queen, and you'll lose the Landsmeet.

Meredith, in a single military organization, the commanding officer, and the one who promoted them in the first place, is responsible for their actions and it's her duty to make sure they fall in line. Add in that it takes the First Enchanter's AND the Knight-Commander's signatures to authorize the rite of tranquility, and the number of tranquil filling the Gallows, Meredith had to be aware. So she either approved it secretly and was breaking Chantry Law, or was grossly incompetent. Neither of which is acceptable of a Knight-Commander.

[quote]
[quote]She never investigates her templars and gives them near unlimited power over mages, which they proceed to abuse horrifically and the mages can't do anything about it.[/quote]
And how do you know that exactly? What proof do you have?[/quote]

My proof is that she directly appoints them, and considers them justified. Ser Thrask in Act 1 says that if the mages hadn't surrendered by the time Kerras arrived, he would slaughter the lot of them and Meredith would consider his actions justified. Meaning Kerras had no intention of using diplomacy and Meredith approved of it. She personally appointed Ser Metten to lead the death squad, which killed not only mages, but non-mages and mage sympathizers in broad daylight, and nothing was done to the unless Hawke intervenes.

There is a gross abuse of templar power in Kirkwall, and Meredith is the one personally promoting these templar extremists to Knight-Lieutanant's, and we have more than one source, Thrask mentioning it in Act 1, Cullen's codex saying he was made Knight-Captain because his views of mages matched her own, and Ser Metten's saying he was hand-picked by Meredith pretty much because of his extremisim, that Meredith approves of their drastic and completely unncecessary actions.

And thus the atmosphere where mages are forced into desperate situations and are driven to blood magic, even the ones who only want to live their lives, can be placed on the templars. And the templars creating this atmosphere, were given the power to do so by Meredith. And no evidence ever comes up that contradicts this.

Unless you can disprove the codex entries, or show evidence that Meredith was investigating the very extremists she herself appointed, then my point stands.

[quote]
[quote]Blood magic becomes a desperate resort, as it's the only kind of magic the templars cannot nullify.[/quote]
What about the mages connected to The Last Holdouts and On The Loose that return to the Circle without incident? They did not use blood magic. Perhaps the mages who turn to it are simply weak willed renegades. Huon who wishes for Elven superiority? Perhaps they learned it from a malcontent in the Circle unhappy with all Templar oversight-- as the Starkhaven apostates learned it from their crazy leader-- and spread it to other mages foolish enough to be caught up in their rebellion. Perhaps apostates brought to the Circle discovered it in the undercity where Tevinter left their secrets centuries ago. The Enigma of Kirkwall details the city has forever been host to an unsually high number of blood mages. 

You cannot say Meredith has turned the Circle to blood magic with her policies. Perhaps driven them to rebellion. Small insurrections. Moderate Templars even. But not blood magic. That is a choice they make. Does a teacher drive a student to cheat because they give hard exams? No. Does a boss drive his employee to murder because he enforces strict policies? Where is the accountability? One supposed never needed to survive. It is turned to because it is easy-- because mages want to combat Templar control through their own strength and rely on nothing else. The illicit use of blood magic is for several reasons a literal and metaphorical refusal to act legitimately.[/quote]

And three of them are chosen at random to be tranquilized to be used as an example.

Huon was completely nuts, and taking into account the templars tortured a young dalish child with fire for information on Fenriel, the templar commanding them says she doesn't care one whit about those 'knife-ears' and templar attitude in general to mages in Kirkwall, it's a very safe bet to say that he was driven completely nuts by the anti-elf and anti-mage attitudes of the templars.

And the mages throughout Thedas, not just Kirkwall, are discontented by templar attitudes towards mages, because mages all across Thedas have declared themselves independent, so that can't just be blamed on the Starkhaven mages....who went on to say that Kirkwall was worse than Starkhaven.

I can say that the number of blood mages Hawke meets in Act's 1 and 2 number 5-7 total, which feels like a statistical normality given that we're talking about a 5 year range. After Meredith becomes defacto Viscount, and enacts extremely strict policies on the mages and the city in general that the blood mage population rose out of control, I can claim that there is a direct correlation to the number of blood mages and to Meredith's policies. And blood magic is the only kind of magic that templars cannot negate, so in a sense she did drive the mages to blood magic.

I hold individuals accountable for their individual action. If a mage lives in crappy circumstances, and uses blood magic to take away the will of others or to murder without provocation, I will gladly join the templars in that individual case and take the mage down. But if the circumstances are that the templars are raping and illegally tranquilizing mages, killing them in broad daylight for no good reason (Metten's death squad, which also killed mage sympathizers who weren't mages themselves, and hadn't committed any crimes), annulling a circle because seers happen to be in contact with their families (Rivain's circle) then I blame the templars.

Let's put it this way, I kill Evelina because she was insane and was a danger to herself and to those around her. I blame her for the damage she causes. But I blame the circumstances that led to her becoming insane on the abuse of power by the templars.

If Meredith did her duty and held the templars under her direct command responsible for their actions, propery investigated them, and weeded out the bad eggs from the good ones, then I'd hold the mages responsible 100%. Because that does not happen, I give templars their fair share of the blame. In Kirkwall, I give templars the majority of the blame because of the lack of oversight and their abuse of power, whereas in Ferelden I gave Uldred and his rebels the majority of the blame, as Gregoire was reasonable and took the proper precautions, and punished/reassigned templars who were a risk of abusing their authority or were becoming to zealous (that one templar controlled by the desire demon is implied to have been a risk to the female mages and was given a dead-end assignment and Cullen was sent to Kirkwall because Gregoire felt it wasn't healthy for Cullen to be around the mages who caused him such trauma.) 

I assign blame and accountability based on each situation and circumstance. Are people taking the proper precautions? Do they question their orders? Do they realize when things are getting out of hand? Do they care? That sort of stuff.

[quote]
[quote]Meredith allowed Alrik to do what he did. It's simply not possible she didn't know what he was up to.[/quote]
Loghain allowed Howe to do what he did. It's simply not possible he didn't know what he was up to. /TwoCanPlayThatGame[/quote]

Oh? So Loghain personally lived in Howe's castle in Denerim and knew that Howe's bedroom was in the dungeon right next to the torture room? Loghain also happened to be the one who turned nobles over to Howe?

Since the answer to both those questions is no, whereas Meredith lived in the exact same place as Alrik, and was putting Alrik into positions where he had mages in his grasp, the two circumstances are different.

Add in that Meredith was living in a single City-state, and Loghain was traveling across an entire country to fight a civil war. The two circumstances simply aren't comparable.

[quote]
[quote]Thrask says that if Kerras killed all the mages in Act 1 if they haven't surrendered by the time he showed up (meaning he had no intention of using negotiation) then Meredith would consider it perfectly justified.[/quote]
So would many Templars. They escaped the Starkhaven Circle -- which looks like the result of a mage rebellion-- as blood mage aposates. And Thrask was far too trusting for his own good. It got him killed by a mage he wished to protect. He was reminded far to late why Meredith is as strict as she is.[/quote]

And many templars are corrupt idealogues, hired by the Chantry because of their religious fervor and not the strength of their character. That's a direct quote from the templar codex. Many templars are drug addicted religious zealots, and that's how the Chantry largely recruits. And Thrask, while far too trusting for his own good (I agree on that point) wasn't trying to free mages, or rebel against the Chantry. He was working to depose Meredith from power, that she legally wasn't allowed to have but pretty much kept because of military superiority....and she pretty called ANYONE who disagreed with her on anything a bloodmage or under the influence of one.

Meredith shouldn't have had that power to begin with, and Thrask was right. And he accomplished something most people believed impossible. He managed to get mages and templars to work together towards a single goal, and got many of them to believe they didn't have to hate each other.

He trusted the wrong person, and Grace ended up ruining things for everyone because of plot stupidity, which makes absolutely no sense if you play a pro-mage Hawke.

That doesn't make him wrong.

[quote]
[quote]She promotes Ser Metten to head her death squad in Act 3 and he goes around killing non-mages in broad daylight, relatives of mages or people who are sympathetic to mages. [/quote]
She also promotes Ser Agatha to invesitage the situation alongside Ser Mettin and Ser Agatha does not desire to harm the familes. And I did not receive the Pro-Mage version of that quest so they never go to individual homes seeking out apostates. There is no evidence to suggest Ser Mettin did not simply act roguishly.[/quote]

And Ser Agatha has no power to do anything. Ser Metten is calling the shots. And I'll give you the lowdown of the pro-mage version.

You go to a house in broad daylight. You see Ser Metten threatening the cousin of a mage, and her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on. Then, without trial, he attempts to kill her. Hawke intervenes and Metten is killed.

What she did is against Chantry law, but it clearly isn't worth the death penalty. He should've questioned her and asked where the cousin was going, or look for clues on it. Not outright try to kill her in the middle of the street. That's like saying "If you have a relative who is a fugitive, and you offer them some food and a place to sleep, you deserve death by virtue of.....deserving death."

[quote]
[quote]Were I a mage and a templar was trying to rape me, I would use blood magic to defend myself with, knowing I'd probably die but I'd rather die on my feet than a slow death bent over for a templar sadist.[/quote]
How would you use blood magic if you had never studied it? If you hadn't planned to use it against the Templars at some point? It is an obvious sheathed weapon-- Blood magic is too political a magic to use without repercussion even in self defense. Use a knife instead. Plenty of mages have those apparently. Cole and Adrian, I'm looking at you.[/quote]

Anders: You didn't cut yourself and accidentally discover the power? (Dialogue with Merrill on how she came to learn blood magic.)

It's entirely possible to use blood magic without study. You just won't know how to use specific blood-mage spells. Cole and Adrian are extremely rare cases that Gaider himself said isn't likely to happen.

So if it's politically incorrect, I can't pull a gun out to defend myself if someone assaults me in real life, because defending myself with a gun is bad? I don't want to discuss gun control issues, but justified self-defense is still self-defense. If  I have it, but never use it (kind of like me owning a rifle, which I do....I only shoot it at shooting ranges) that doesn't mean I have to use it or I will become a killer. It just means I have a way to defend myself with.

I don't see blood magic any differently if used to amplifly and power spells from the other schools of magic. EWR has said repeatedly that blood magic can influence the flow of blood, which could save lives in critical injuries if you redirect the flow of blood so it doesn't gush out of a person, but stays flowing in them while the wound is treated. Blood magic healing spells are VERY POWERFUL, even if you have a crappy time healing yourself while using blood magic. How is that a bad thing?

On a side note: A note in the Ferelden Circle shows that the mages were training with hand-to-hand weapons, when the templars cancelled the classes, and refused to allow mages the ability to learn the skills to defend themselves with things not magical. And Ferelden is one of the most liberal and mage-friendly circles. Most mages won't be able to defend themselves with knives, or have the skill to use them.

[quote]
[quote]And if the templars actions drive mages like Evelina, a mage who turned herself in after escaping the Blight in exchange for aid for the orphans she was taking care of (whom the Chantry immediately dropped and did nothing to help as far as I could see) then the Chantry and the templars are responsible for driving her insane in the first place. She still needed killing because she was a danger to herself and to everyone else, but that's not entirely her own fault.[/quote]
I don't exactly remember that quest but if your account it true the Chantry/Templars could have perhaps done more to ensure the boy's safety. There is no such thing as insanity. Insanity is not a real clinical or psychological condition as many erroneously believe it is. If Evelina went "insane" she had a previously undiagonosed mental condition that surfaced when she could not cope with her feelings of helplessnes and guilt. The Templar/Chantry response may have been her trigger but not the cause of her "insanity".[/quote]

Oh? So all mental conditions occur naturally over time, and our environment, how we're treated, and emotional trauma we may or may not face has absolutely nothing to do with our psyche analysis? Really?

I've learned quite differently in my sociology class in college.

[quote]
[quote]My Hawke begs to differ. He was THE mercenary![/quote]
My sarcastic Hawke prefers Important Errand Boy.[/quote]

Good one.

[quote]
[quote]Any evidence of this? 

I thought so as well when I first played, but I've since looked over all the events of Origins, looked through the Codex entries AND listened to every single rumor Bodahn and the innkeepers would tell as we progressed through the story. I find a lot more evidence of political manuevering by the Bannorn and Howe than by Loghain.[/quote]
I addressed this in a post to TWER. http://social.biowar...8346/8#16546461 [/quote]

....that's quite a long post, and I'm feeling too lazy to give that one a proper read-through at the moment while I'm typing this monster of a response already (I've been working on it for about an hour.) I'll send you a raincheck for this response and discuss this later. Okay?

[quote]
[quote]When did he do that? He called a retreat on a battle that looked like it was already lost. Cailan was on the front lines, and the overhead showed more darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds. Cailan left a highly defensible location in search of glory, which he made no secret of in camp. Loghain repeatedly warned him not to be on the front lines, and that it was foolish to rely completely on the Grey Wardens. [/quote]
That does not mean it was and others support it was not. And it has been stated by Mary Kirby that Loghain does not have a full view of the battlefield. He cannot possibly know for certain that it was lost. It looks to me as though the army was holding its own but when the tide was expected to turn decisively in its favor-- Loghain's men meant to charge-- and it did not-- the fighting extended far past the call for reinforcements-- the battle was lost. I feel it was lost in a matter of minutes and that is thanks to Loghain's inaction. The army that fought the Horde at Denerim was outnumbered three to one by the darkspawn a guardmans tells you during The Final Onslaught and still they prevailed.[/quote]

And Gaider said he did not plan on retreating until the moment he did. Let's look at it from his perspective.

He had already fought a war with Orlais and had managed to drive them out. He knew Orlais had a long history of 'helping with the blights' and then conquering the country they just 'helped' (Nevarra.) He knew that the Wardens who came into the country came from Orlais, so he already suspected that they were playing politics here and weren't truly neutral.

Then we have the fact the Orlesians were sending an army into Ferelden, as recommended by the Wardens, and had been told that they were bringing four legions of Chevalier's. However, when the chevalier's showed up, Riordan said they had six divisions of cavalry and infantry, and based on my knowledge, a division usually had 2 legions or so, and a legion (based on Roman Empire numbers) consisted of 3,000 to 6,000 troops. That's four times the number Ferelden was expecting.

On the battlefield itself, we (Alistair and us) get held up at the tower, and Loghain doesn't know that, completely miss the signal, and light the beacon late. Cailan, fighting side-by-side the Wardens, charged out of the defensive location and got swamped on all sides.

Because we know Orlais sent more troops than Loghain was told, and given Ferelden's history with Orlais and Orlais' history with conquering the people they help during blights, it's quite safe to say that Loghain was right about Orlais, even if he was wrong about the Wardens working for them.

Any general in those circumstances would think the battle couldn't be won, and Loghain decided to take steps to protect Ferelden from Orlais, and chose to ignore the darkspawn. He focused on the wrong threat in the end, but wasn't wrong about Orlais.

[quote]
[quote]The bannorn mustered their armies first. He didn't keep Anora from ruling, he was out in the field constantly. If anything, I think Howe did more to keep Anora from ruling than Loghain did. For all we know, as there is very little evidence on what was happening in the palace while we're building an army, Anora could have been grieving for Cailan and gave her father the go-ahead to take care of things while she mourned. Wynne in Asunder admits that she was hasty to denounce Uldred and his support of Loghain, and we as the Wardens never really gain much perspective on things from Loghain's view because....we're not Loghain and we're in a completely different location, working towards defeating the blight while he is working to try and keep the land united while the bannorn are beginning to fight over the power vacuum that grew from Cailan's death. And Loghain never tortured nobles. That was Howe. You can't pin the actions of Howe on Loghain as they are completely different people. Should Loghain kept a tighter leash on Howe? Most definitely. Is he directly responsible for Howe's actions? Nope.[/quote]
And why can Loghain have these excues but not Meredith? How is his defense legitimate but not Meredith's?[/quote]

Becaue Meredith was right there, and she directly appointed her soldiers to the positions where they abused their power, and never punished them for it. The bannorn were already in power, and were playing politics, and Loghain was forced to deal with them.

Her soldiers were simply abusing their power, not waging war against Kirkwall. Loghain tried telling the bannorn to unite so they could face the darkspawn without hesitation, and they chose to fight him as a result of the power vacuum. Ferelden ended up fighting itself and ignored the darkspawn. The templars of Kirkwall weren't fighting themselves, they weren't playing politics, and they weren't under invasion (they were united with Hawke and Orsino during the Qunari invasion, something Ferelden should've done, and became divided AFTER the threat was dealt with.)

The cirumstances Loghain and Meredith lived in were completely different, as was their ability to admit their own fault. Loghain admits his fault by saying to the Warden that the warden has a strength he hadn't seen since Maric died and he tells Alistair (should Alistair duel him) that there was more of Maric in him than he thought, and admits he thought the Warden to be like Cailan, a child playing at war. Meredith cannot accept she's wrong under any circumstance, and when presented proof that Orsino wasn't involved in Thrask's rebellion, dismisses it out of hand and says Hawke is a victim of blood magic.

That calls into question her ability to lead or to deal with a problem if she doesn't acknowledge the evidence of the truth when presented, unlike Loghain.

[quote]
[quote]Difference between Meredth and Loghain and why I hold Meredith to a higher standard than Loghain when it comes to dealing and investigating underlings is pretty straight forward. Loghain was fighting a civil war and was constantly out in the field. Meredith was living in a city-state more or less at peace, promoted all these extremists herself, and was on location at all times. There's no way she couldn't have known as she was right there, wheras Loghain has a reasonable excuse of not knowing because he was out fighting all the time. [/quote]
So in effect Meredith did the same things Loghian-- Power grabbing. Not always present. Promotes men of questionable intention as high-placed subordinates. Fought a monster she supposedly created. But Loghain gets a pass because you agree with him and Meredith doesn't because you're Pro-Mage?

It's okay to admit it. I won't judge. I promise. Pinki swear.[/quote]

hahaha, not really.  Loghain steps down peacefully and submits to the Joining, glad to admit that he can rest easy knowin Ferelden is in capable hands as the Warden steps forward as commander of the armies. Meredith refuses to step down entirely.

And I wouldn't consider myself pro-mage so much as I am pro-whoever-the-heck-happens-to-have-the-moral-high-ground in individual circumstances. In Ferelden I felt Gregoire was more than up to the task, completely reasonable, if a little biased towards the Chanry, and genuinely liked the guy. I respected Ser Otto in the alienage beyond measure, and Ser Bryant earned my respect by focusing on the villagers and the darkspawn rather than on mage hunting. In DA2, I am pro-mage because I felt that Meredith's lack of scrutiny of her templars and her giving them power to abuse the mages and doing nothing about it gave the mages the moral highground, even if they have their faults.

Punish the individual for the individual crime. If an organization has a direct chain of command, then I fully expect the leaders to hold their subordinates accountable for their actions. Don't declare a right of annulment for a crime the circle had nothing to do with, or because seers happen to be in contact with their families. That is in effect, genocide on the flimsiest of reasons, and no amount of spinning the facts will change the situation. The templars, and Meredith, simply did not have the justification to slaughter hundreds of men, women, and children for a crime they did not commit. Nor did Meredith even look for an alternative the moment she had the authority to call for the Right of Annulment on the most bare-bone technicalities.

And for the record (to quote you soon to be, hahaha) I don't actually agree with Loghain. I completely disagree with his views, and by listening to the rumors about the civil war throughout the game, I honestly fel Loghain was being extremely brutal.

The difference between them? I can see Loghain's view and I can understand how it can be justified, given that they were in the middle of a blight and Orlais was obviously planning something. Meredith? I cannot see or comprehend how she justifies what she does. The only reason she gives to annul the circle is to appease a hypothetical mob, which never forms. That's her only argument.

The Circle wasn't responsible for Anders actions. He did the deed right in front of her, confessed quite readily, and her response is to kill EVERY mage, not the one responsible. She doesn't cite blood mage criminal in high town running amok (while her templars have taken up a residence in the Keep....go figure.) She doesn't talk about Thrask and his rebellion, and wants to see if there are any remnants in it, and she doesn't even try to justify why it's necessary. She simply says the people will demand blood, and goes out of her way to refuse Orsino's compromise to help her search the gallows.

Again, I cannot find any logic in her argument, seeing as her duty is to also protect mages from mundanes as well as mundanes from mages, and I cannot see her actions justified.

That is the real difference in how I view Meredith and Loghain.

[quote]
And for the record, I support Loghain in a majority of my playthroughs. I can agree with his reasoning. I can see where he's coming from.  But I can still see what he is and the similarites with Meredith.

It only makes him better in my eyes. 

I love both Meredith and Loghain. <3

And playing Devil's Advocate. 

[/quote]

:innocent:

Angel's advocate?



Whew......two and a half hours or looking over your post, thinking out my answers, and responding in what I hope is a clear and concise manner. Forgive me if I don't respond in the near future, I'm mentally exhausted at the moment....and it's college finals week.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And yet Alistair could do it no problem without ever taking lyrium. He never took his vows and as such, never imbibed lyrium. Gaider has tried to retract that piece of lore, but fact of the matter is, it's in the game. They might say Alistair may be a bit of an exception, and that rare humans can do it and become possible Seeker candidates (which would explain why the Grand Cleric didn't want to lose him), or maybe elves could learn the ability without lyrium and there is a possibility that Alistair is half-elven given the possible connection to Fiona.

Until we learn more about it, Alistair stands as proof that lyrium is not required to negate mana and spells.

On the contrary, I think we have to accept that that is not a valid bit of game lore.  It's not just Gaider's statement that calls the idea into question. ALL of the existing lore refutes the idea that templar abilities can be had without lyrium, and nowhere is Alistair stated or implied to be an exception.  I don't think Gaider's statement came as a retraction or an attempt at a retcon, but from not realizing they'd left Alistair's scene in the game. 

It just doesn't make sense, because the entire game is written as if lyrium-derived tempar abilities are a given.  Everything else in the game intended to raise questions or to have conflicting interpretations is clearly indicated.  This is not--it comes across exactly as the oversight it is. 

[MisterJB]

Let me try to settle the "Who started it" argument.
The mages declaring independence is a clear act of provocation against the Templars and the Chantry and they knew full well it would lead to war which they were willing to start. That is a fact.
But it's also a fact that the mere act of declaring independence is not an act of war unless the other side chooses to answer with war which is what the templars did.
So, there you have it, both sides started this war. One by provoking and the other by answering to the provocations. And now Thedas is on fire.

In these forums, those who support the templars will believe the templars are more in the right while those who support mages will believe the opposite. And that's basically it.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Let me try to settle the "Who started it" argument.
The mages declaring independence is a clear act of provocation against the Templars and the Chantry and they knew full well it would lead to war which they were willing to start. That is a fact.
But it's also a fact that the mere act of declaring independence is not an act of war unless the other side chooses to answer with war which is what the templars did.
So, there you have it, both sides started this war. One by provoking and the other by answering to the provocations. And now Thedas is on fire.

In these forums, those who support the templars will believe the templars are more in the right while those who support mages will believe the opposite. And that's basically it.

First time i agree with JB. Their are plenty of aholes on both sides. But what i do not agree with is how the templars operate their little system which makes thedas very vulnerable to outside influences.

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

 @Hazegurl; Did you start that drinking game yet?

Just started the count after your last post and that's seven shots you need to take now with the double post.   

Oh boy! Seven shots in one post! I knew it was said often but...

[dragonflight288]

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Let me try to settle the "Who started it" argument.
The mages declaring independence is a clear act of provocation against the Templars and the Chantry and they knew full well it would lead to war which they were willing to start. That is a fact.
But it's also a fact that the mere act of declaring independence is not an act of war unless the other side chooses to answer with war which is what the templars did.
So, there you have it, both sides started this war. One by provoking and the other by answering to the provocations. And now Thedas is on fire.

In these forums, those who support the templars will believe the templars are more in the right while those who support mages will believe the opposite. And that's basically it.

First time i agree with JB. Their are plenty of aholes on both sides. But what i do not agree with is how the templars operate their little system which makes thedas very vulnerable to outside influences.

Pretty much this. My personal take, given that the Codex entry makes it clear that the templars largely recruit from peope with religious fervor and less from people with strong moral character, that the templar were ill-suited to compromise with the mages in the first place, and Fiona's hot-headedness made her a poor spokesperson for all the mages collectively (I highly doubted she spoke for the Loyalist fraternity.)

I also happen to agree with Mr.JB on this point, and he's right when he says templar supporters will see the templars more in the right than the mage supporters, who are the opposite.