Silfren wrote... But I disagree that the total number of lives saved versus those lost should be the rule that carries the day.
I can understand your point of view and what you said is, fundamentally, true. The mages appear to be innocent from that particular crime; even if I suspect a great number of them had been blood mages for a long time; and Meredith was wrong in calling the Right of Annulment. But Hawke doesn't have any option that enables him/her to convince Meredith to call it off. All s/he can do is pick a side. The people of Kirkwall are far more numerous than the mages and they are innocent as well. Just because they are not mages, it doesn't mean their lives have no value and should be placed upon the sacrifical altar so some mages can be saved. Therefore, I can't, in good mind, protect the mages at the expense of the city.
Add to all this, when you speak of the people of Kirkwall, that includes the mages, too. They are Kirkwallians just as everyone else.
Debatable. They don't fall under the jurisdiction of the Viscount and under that of the Chantry which is an international organization, they don't pay taxes.
And it is the templars' duty to protect mages from just the sort of mob threat do which Meredith alluded:
Yes it is. And had I been questioned about what to do, I would have suggested locking all mages in the Gallows, comandeer all ships in the city so only authorized people can enter and leave the Gallows, search the tower extensively for blood magic and more bombs, send a number of templars along with the city guard(assuming they wouldn't try to lynch the mages) to keep order int he streets until things have calmed down and publicaly execute Anders and any blood mages encountered in the Circle. But, since that's not an option, siding with the Templars it is.
I think the developers might have been going for a "you can't just take a third option" angle. No compromise seems to be a big "bit" of the game. (Cheers, Anders! )
How well that's executed, however, is another issue altogether.
In my first playthrough I actually thought that eventually I would have to fight Anders/Justice in a boss fight. Like he would eventually go too far and it would be up to the Champion to put him down thus bringing the Mages and Templars together to stop him. But yeah no third option and sadly Hawke has to stand there with both sides yapping in his ear like a bunch of kindergarten children."Pick my side!" "No pick Mine!!" Poor Hawke, no wonder he vanishes at the end regardless of which side you take. <_<
Of course! Just look at that crafty beard of his.
That is the mark of an evil genuis.
MisterJB wrote...
I can understand your point of view and what you said is, fundamentally, true. The mages appear to be innocent from that particular crime; even if I suspect a great number of them had been blood mages for a long time; and Meredith was wrong in calling the Right of Annulment. But Hawke doesn't have any option that enables him/her to convince Meredith to call it off. All s/he can do is pick a side.
Right, I would even say that both sides have their evils at the end of the day.
Side with Mages-You risk setting free some blood mages you just know (based on what we have seen in game) are not healthy enough to be set loose on the general public and you leave Kirkwall even more unstable than it already is.
Side with Meredith-You kill innocent mages who had nothing at all to do with blood magic for the crime of one man.
Pick your own brand of evil and fight to the death to defend it.
The reasons are irrelevant. It's happening and the only thing that matters is ending it as quickly and painlessly as possible. The mages are fewer in number than the templars and they are the ones causing the entirety of collateral damage. Therefore, eliminating them makes the battle shorter and reduces the size of the collateral damage thus saving the life of kirkwallers. I would have prefered Meredith not call for the Right at all but that's not an option Hawke is given.
thats like saying that people should support germany in ww2 because aiding them to win the war quickly will kill less people. You dont seem to understand that you are supporting a corrupt organisation that shows it has no respect for human live what so ever. When hawke dissapears kirkwal will be drowned in blood as the noble/templar conflict is still not resolved. In short your being short sighted. Helping the templars may or may note reduce cassualties the future of kirkwall is grim indeed wih you choice.
Awakening already showcased that you shouldn't give in to an angry mob. And I don't see any merit in murdering hundreds of men, women, and children simply because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob. Aveline explicitly notes that she has her guards protecting civilians while mages fight against templars who are trying to kill them. The issue in deciding whether or not to help Meredith commit genocide against an entire population of people who are innocent of Anders' actions is simple for me: protect the mages against Meredith and her templars.
MisterJB wrote... I fear you don't understand what I mean. Before there were the Circles, the Chantry appeared to not segregate mages, they simply forbid the use of magic for anything beyond beyond the most mundane of tasks such as lighting candles. And the mages protested. Now, I'm not surprised they did. I simply find it hypocritical how a group of people who claim to wish for equality, to be so unwilling to simply not use the very thing that separates them from normal people. Basically, what they say is this: "We want to have the same rights as normal men but we also want to keep using our demigod powers that grant us superiority over others."
Well first off it's not the Chantry's job to decide what's legal or illegal. Technically-speaking that's the job of the ruler of whatever kingdom said mages happen to be living in. Second there's a lot of questions that come up in connection with making magic outright illegal. For instance if a Spirit Healer uses his magic to save someone's life, is that illegal? If someone is using magic, or any other means for that matter, to torch buildings and murder random passersby and a mage uses his powers to stop him is that illegal? If you're a mage and you use your magic to find out that another mage is using their magic to control people's minds, how do you report him to the authorities without you yourself also being arrested for using magic.
Thus any attempt to outlaw the use of magic would require a lot of sub-set rules and regulations, at which point you're not so much outlawing magic as you are restricting it. Which most law-abiding mages would, in my opinion, actually agree to. And I also believe that, in a situation where being a mage outside the circle isn't illegal, there would be just as many law-abiding mages per capita as there are law-abiding non-mages.
None of which takes away from the fact that a mages life isn't the "beer and skittles" life some pro-Templar folks make it out to be.
Did I say it was?
No, but that was the point I was trying to make, that whatever comfort Circle Mages have is at least equaled by the dangerous situation they find themselves in simply by living in the Circle.
The situation in Kirkwall is not comparable. The younger Orsino is far more vocal and combative than old man Irving-- Fereledn's subdued First Enchanter prefers to express a more behind-closed-doors style viciousness towards the Templars and Chantry.
Orsino claims to have no knowledge of rampant use of blood magic in his Circle, and claims to have no knowledge of a blood mage conspiracy to overthrow the Knight-Commander, yet he leads the charge against Meredith whenever possible.
Either he was ignorant despite his responsibility as First Enchanter, or he was involved, and Meredith is right to air on the side of caution. That's her responsibility as a Templar. Why does doing your job make you a horrible villainous b*tch? Regardless, Meredith does not directly accuse Orsino himself of being a blood mage. She suspects it but that is different. And she does not call for the RoA because she suspects Orsino is a blood mage. She calls the RoA because the Circle was infested with blood mages in considerable and flatout unacceptable numbers.
And FYI Orsino was a blood mage. Meredith was correct.
...and Meredith wasn't exactly as good a KC as Griegor was either. Truth be told, both sides suffered from a lack of leadership. Things probably would have gone better if Cullen replaced Meredith and Bethany replaced Orsino. But then that would result in some disturbing fanfictions. But anyway I didn't even really bring up Ferelden to compare to Kirkwall anyway. I was illustrating how an overzealous Knight Commander can make matters worse and make the mages in his charge more likely to rebel rather then less likely.
Regarding Orsino being a blood mage, we only have evidence of him actually using blood magic when he flips his wig at the end of the game.
Enters the Lucrosians...
Slowly and assuredly from there, she [The Divine] must create an environment that will institute a cultural change. I would encourage the Lucrosian approach to societal integration. I would ease restrictions that prevent Circle Mages from owning wealth and encourage entrepreneurship.
Mages who make money can pay for the expenses of the Circle. Lyrium used in Harrowings, for example. Because lyrium is expensive, and so much of it is used in a single Harrowing, the Chantry does not allow all mages to undertake the ritual. Those who don't are made Tranquil. The mages themselves could pay the expenses for lyrium and ensure every mage is given the chance to attempt the Harrowing. I doubt many Templars will object if reduced Circle expenses mean bigger salaries and better benefits for them and their families. Or if reduced Circle expenses mean the Chantry can take on more societal projects like building universities, caring for the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disenfranchised, etc.
The Circle could use reform and I offer a bloodless solution to that and eventual lasting independence. What about you? What is your plan for the Magi?
First off, where did you get that quote? What is said in their does make a lot of sense. There does need to be a cultural change in the Circle and the Chantry's approach thereto. The Lucrosian approach would make a lot of sense in that regard as well if it works. It gives mages more freedoms, could ease tensions between the Templars and the Circle by making the Circle a lot more self-sustaining.
As for my plans for the Magi. Well if I was running things now in it would be "survive the war". But if you're asking how I would have made things better before everyone started breaking away from the Chantry? Well I would create a system of checks and balances among the three organizations involved (i.e. the Circle of Magi, the Templar Order and the Chantry), so that you don't get too much power resting in . I would also encourage that cultural change that was mentioned by discouraging the idea that mages are inherently evil.
One of my weirder ideas was also to allow some mages to join the Templar Order. Serving together might give the Templars a better general opinion of mages and mages a better general opinion of Templars.
And there are mages that opt to be made tranquil. It is not always a punishment, and now it can be reversed. I believe the Rite of Tranquility still has it's uses. Say a mage commits a serious crime. Traditional justice may call for execution, but instead of submitting to death that mage may choose to be made tranquil and serve the Circle of Magi for a number of years-- variable depending upon the crime itself-- and later have the Rite reversed.
Sure the Rite of Tranquility has it's uses, just like the death penalty does. And yeah some mages do opt for Tranquility. As far as reversing Tranquility...well it's a very new concept. Thus far only one mages has had Tranquility reversed and as a side-effect he became overly emotional, which some people might say is just as bad. Basically it'd require more research before being used regularly.
[quote]dragonflight288 wrote... I happen to be a....perfect....gentlemen. [/quote] I'm sure you are.:innocent:
[quote]Paid for on Chantry resources.[/quote] And this is an issue?
[quote]As far as I can tell, the Chantry povides for the templars. If there is lore or evidence that says otherwise and I'm not aware of, then please let me know. I'm not 100% confident about this fact, but I haven't seen anything that says otherwise, so until then I'm going to assume that Kirkwall is only providing the quarters for the templars in the Gallows, and the Chantry pays for their supplies.[/quote] I'm not certain of your point. I never claimed the Templars were officially the Kirkwall army. Rather its unofficially offical they are they city's defense. Its a backroom bargain for protection agreed to out of convenience and desperation. And I believe the Gallows is property of the Chantry. From-- Codex Entry: The Gallows-- "It stood empty for two hundred years, not to be reopened until the crowning of Justina I."
[quote]And yet Alistair could do it no problem without ever taking lyrium. He never took his vows and as such, never imbibed lyrium. Gaider has tried to retract that piece of lore, but fact of the matter is, it's in the game. They might say Alistair may be a bit of an exception, and that rare humans can do it and become possible Seeker candidates (which would explain why the Grand Cleric didn't want to lose him), or maybe elves could learn the ability without lyrium and there is a possibility that Alistair is half-elven given the possible connection to Fiona. Until we learn more about it, Alistair stands as proof that lyrium is not required to negate mana and spells.[/quote] [quote]Silfren wrote... On the contrary, I think we have to accept that that is not a valid bit of game lore. It's not just Gaider's statement that calls the idea into question. ALL of the existing lore refutes the idea that templar abilities can be had without lyrium, and nowhere is Alistair stated or implied to be an exception. I don't think Gaider's statement came as a retraction or an attempt at a retcon, but from not realizing they'd left Alistair's scene in the game. It just doesn't make sense, because the entire game is written as if lyrium-derived tempar abilities are a given. Everything else in the game intended to raise questions or to have conflicting interpretations is clearly indicated. This is not--it comes across exactly as the oversight it is. [/quote] What she said.
[quote].....need I mention Orlais? Mage and templar war. The templars are abandoing the chantry and their countries to hunt mages.[/quote] The Nevarran Accord is null and void at the end of Asunder. There is no contractual abandonment of their responsibility. Asunder page 421-- In the twentieth year of the Divine Age, the Nevarran Accord was signed. The Seekers of Truth lowered out banner and agreed to serve as the Chantry's right hand, and together we created the the Circle --of Magi. With the Circle no more, I hereby declare the Accord null and void.
[quote]The templar order as a whole is prioritizing killing mages over defense as of the end of Asunder. They've already betrayed the Chantry, the Divine, and whatever country's they live in in the areas they are hunting mages. [/quote] Yes the spiritual and doctrinal duty of the Order is clear-- they are watchers of the Magi. National defense is not their responsiblity or duty-- It is a very useful bargining chip should they involve themselves or otherwise become involved in politics. Their intervention may even be expected by the public should the proper national army be lost or is simply inadequate. It is a charitiable societal contribution they make etc. But the situation in Kirkwall is unique beyond comparison. Again the Templars and Chantry have every interest in protecting Kirkwall. The Order enjoy significant and unparalleled power and political positioning in the city on the scale other contingents in Thedas will never acquire.
And once in control of the city-- Meredith's rule means a significant and law required revenue stream to the Chantry/Templars. Access to valuable resources. Control over Kirkwall's large and well established trade port. Power to create rules and regulations favorable to the Chantry/Templars. The power to eliminate seditious materials and defiant individuals. The creation of a true and centralized seat of Chantry/Templar authority. The ability to more easily spread Chantry influence. And also the establishment of a useful precedent.
Their army is the key. No matter the broader situation of the Order they cannot sacrifice defense once they become rulers. And Meredith has proven capable of managing her double-responsibility as Knight-Commander and acting Viscountess-- you feel she should have defended the Circle against a city-wide riot should one have occured. Her responsibility and political considerations as Viscountess dictated she could not however even if she wished otherwise she explains.
[quote]And besides, last I checked, templars don't swear allegiance to the country they live in, or the city-state. They are part of the Chantry.[/quote] There is no need in this particular situation. It is a treasure trove-- too good an opportunity to ruin. It doesn't require an oath of service. The benefits outweight any empty oath.
[quote]I do. The Grey Warden in Origins was mired in politics when there shouldn't have been a need for it. I believe the Wardens must be completely neutral politically, otherwise you get moments like Loghain seeing the Wardens as Orlesians first and fore-most or Wardens like Sophia Dryden who tried to turn the Wardens into an army so she could take the throne, and killers of darkspawn second. Or the First Warden telling our Warden in Awakening that a Warden being given political power was a precedent that they wanted to milk for all it was worth, to build up the importance of wardens. So long as Wardens are completely neutral, they can fight the darkspawn in any country without being seen as political opportunists or allies of any nation. Politics and efficiency are often exclusive to each other. I share Duncan's views on the darkspawn. "I believe the darkspawn need to be defeated, one way or another. My opinion ends there."[/quote] I appreciate your consistency. But you understand the unique positions both organizations are in and you realize that regardless of personal preference it is likely they are going to find themselves involved in politics. When the inevitable occurs playing hot potato with true authorative positions will do your organization no favors and may constrain your stability or ability to act should the politics you are reluctantly embroild in take center stage during a conflict. The Grey Wardens do not alone have the numbers to combat a Blight or large darkspawn raids etc. A truer army of some form is always needed. A seat of power will give you clout among the court and put you in a better negotiating position should a political mess need handling. I personally support the Grey Wardens in politics.
[quote]That's because the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and that supports my argument that Kirkwall doesn't maintain the templar army, the Chalntry does.[/quote] Again I've never claimed the city supports the Templar Order. And that only makes the deal sweeter. Defense in general is expense and the money meant to back a bloated budget can instead be reappropriated to other city necessities and profitable ventures.
[quote]There's historical, real world and Thedas history, of militias besting professional armies.[/quote] You said far more reliable than the Templars which I can not agreee. I do not believe that such a makeshift army would be. I do not believe mercenaries or glorified policemen would make for a better army than the regimented Templar Order.
[quote]One such event is Orzammar under King Bemot. He declared that all the soldiers of the noble houses answered only to the king during times of conflict, and ignored the nobles to create his own army to battle the darkspawn with, and was more successful than most kings. Paragon Aeducan ignored politics and gathered all the soldiers he could, ignored the Assembly about which thaigs should be protected, and saved Orzammar from destruction. [/quote] And Bemot had actual soldiers under his command. The offical Orzammar army-- the warrior caste. Not mercenaries or simply city-guardsmen. Everyone else that supported Bemot's efforts acted in support roles.
[quote]Kal'Hirol had a small army of untrained casteless hold a last stand similar to the Battle of Thermopolie and the Spartans, and held off the darkspawn for five straight days, giving the other dwarves time to evacuate to Orzammar.[/quote] And Kal'Hilrol was not saved. If your intention is to protect the city of Kirwall from an enemy sacking you will need more from your militiamen than time borrowed to escape. You need a legitimate defense.
[quote]Loghain had the elven rangers of his, their official name I can't quite remember off the top of my head at the moment, and they were VERY effective in the war against Orlais. Heck, Ferelden's army might as well be called a giant militia at times.[/quote] I don't know who you are talking about. Is this from the books? I have The Stolen Throne and The Calling but I've yet to read them.
[quote]I say with the right leaders, an army of mercenaries, guardsmen and noble house soldiers would be quite dependable.[/quote] And I remain unconvinced they would be the better choice over the Templars.
[quote]I would also use, as Etheral suggested, the Gaatlock. Fact of the matter is, the templars dependence on lyrium may be a strength in enhancing their templar powers, or giving them it based on which game's lore you use, but it's also their biggest weakness.[/quote] A weakness perhaps. But the benefits outweigh the weaknesses IMO and acting against the Templars in such a manner would without a doubt be considered an act of war. An Exalted March would be called against the Qunari and they could not hope to deprive every Templar in Thedas of their lyrium.
[quote]Lambert is the head of the Seekers, overseer of the templars, and supposedly answers only to the Divine, whom he ignores frequently. At his rank, he'd have access to the Chantry's stores of lyrium. It can't ALL be at the White Spire, because the Chantry is an international religion. They have to have storehouses throughout the world, under heavy guard. But the Chantry is the only reliable source on the surface to acquire it, as they have a trade monopoly with the dwarves...who keep most of it for themselves and their smiths and enchanters.[/quote] I did not suggest all Chantry lyrium was kept at the White Spire. Simply, Lambert's quick acquisition of it suggests some lyrium stores are indeed kept within Templar reach in the Circles they watchover. The Chantry would not so painstakingly keep it from them when it is required to do their jobs. And mages need lyrium to conduct their studies. It only makes sense to me that some is kept in the Circles at all times.
[quote]I know.[/quote] Then you understand why I believe they are flatout the best option? That I am not suggesting there is no other alternative at all but rather the Templars are for several substantiated reasons the best solution to the Kirkwall problem?
[quote]But they are scattered throughout every country of Thedas, minus areas where the Chant of Light isn't sung (like Orzammar and Qunari held lands) and that's how they were able to conquer the Dales. After Orlais was getting their hiny kicked by the Dalish, an exalted march was called and the Dalish had to face EVERY nation of Thedas.[/quote] The DA Wiki does not detail the Dalish did not fight every nation in Thedas. They fought Orlais and the Chantry Templars. If you have differing evidence I would like to see it. And while respectable in size the Templar Order is not the size of a national army in most countries. They are most numerous in Kirkwall and I would assume Chantry HQ at the Grand Cathedral. I believe those contingents only could truly be called armies unto themselves.
[quote]I don't think that's possible now, because there's so much chaos going on at the moment. Orlais is in a civil war, the templar have rebelled against the Chantry, some members of the Orlesian nobility is looking at Ferelden and want their province back, the Qunari might invade, Tevinter has been quite active as well, and the awakened darkspawn haven't gone away, so there's a constant threat of a mini-blight like the one the Mother unleashed.[/quote] I'm not certain what this has to do with your hypothetical? Had the Qunari attacked the Templars during DA2 the Chantry would have intervened because that is an act of war against their military arm and it threatens their plans for Kirkwall. And considering the history of the new Exalted Marches the Chantry would not simply let the city fall out of their hands and into those of the Qunari.
[quote]I honestly don't think the templar order can muster all their forces like they have been able to before they left the Chantry. They've lost access to Chantry resources and now need to get lyrium themselves. And an army marches on its stomach, so they also need to find enough food to provide for them, again, without the Chantry their primary provider is gone, as well as maintain all their arms and armor.[/quote] And the relevance to DA2?
[quote]And so we acknowledge that Meredith had all the power in Kirkwall and was involved in politics before the game even began.[/quote] All the power in Kirkwall no. Very significant power yes. She certainly bargains from a position of strength. You discount the Nobility-- the political and economic power they wield however and how Dumar would have to finagle negotiations among the Nobility itself and negotiations suitable to both the Nobles and the Templars. Meredith cannot simply bark orders and expect acquiescence from Dumar and the Nobility. She understands politics must be played and works to gain the support of Nobles whenever possible-- Her apology letter to the Dupuis family found in Act 2 and her warm letters to Hawke should the Champion side with her during the Act 3 opening. And should she threaten to withdraw all martial support in every instance the Templars are not favored such an obvious bluff would be called and she would lose political capital.
[quote]Her duty was to safeguard the mages from the people, and the people from the mages. Not run a city.[/quote] The pretense behind which Meredith has assumed the Viscount's chair is that she is on a campaign to rid the city of its blood mage plague. Kiirkwall continues to be a stage where high profile uses of forbidden magics are acted upon. Certainly the recent, and highly referenced, murder of Leandra Amell, mother of the Champion of Kirkwall, is noteworthy. If the Champion and his/her family is not safe who is from their influence who is? That is her message and I wouldn't say its fabrication or illegitimate fear considering everything we've seen in Kirkwall.
[quote]Really? That explanation doesn't take into account the fact that it's implied tha mages numbers are increasing internationally, and not just in Kirkwall. Lyrium cannot be the only connection or attribute to it.[/quote] The Talking-Man was speaking in the context of Kirkwall's current and historical high number of Magi compared to elsewhere in Thedas. And where is it implied that the number of mages is increasing at a noteworthy rate internationally? I only see an implication for Kirkwall.
[quote]Isolde's son Connor is a mage, but if Connor is killed, Eamon and Isolde have a daughter, and she too is a mage. We know Isolde had magic in her family, so it looks like genetics also is a factor, and we cannot blame lyrium.[/quote] And it could be a biological mutation passed on for generations from ancestral lyrium exposure. One that causes a small amount of lyrium to be present in the body.
[quote]Elven lore says that at one time every elf was a mage. Since lyrium still effects elves negatively, that can't be lyrium.[/quote] Effects elves negatively? And where did you read this? Every mage needs lyrium to sustain and practice their talents overtime.
[quote]Or Inquisition may come out and say lyrium is a factor and prove me wrong entirely. But as of the moment, we do not have the evidence to say that lyrium creates mages.[/quote] The veil is curiously thin in Kirwall. More magic is available. Magic is lyrium in another form. It interacts with the enviroment. Kirkwall is naturally home to a high number of mages. I think it makes sense.
[quote]Not necessarily true. Orsino and the mages were already there. Hawke was just taken down by Serrabaas and then Meredith steps in. We don't see where she and the templars come from.[/quote] Your friend TWER has pointed out to me that there are indeed Templars in Hightown on the landing above the merchant stalls. They came from that direction. And Meredith was behind the Saarebas that also came from the direction of the stairs.
[quote]But it's also quite likely as well. So that would mean that Meredith and her small contingent weren't making headway against the Qunari. They were either scattered by the Qunari attack and regouped where they could, or were already in the city in small numbers. And since she didn't have the numbers to take on the Qunari and rush in to face the Arishok (which she SOOO wanted to do) she had to take care of reinforcements so that Hawke could go face the Arishok.[/quote] I see you would wish this were so.
[quote]And there is no evidence that he was completely complicit either. He knew about it, but did he know how Quentin was going about it? That's a question with no definitive answer.[/quote] He may not have known Quentin was murdering women in the streets and he may not have known Qunentin was running a chop shop beneath the city to create a magical version of Frankenstein's Bride but it is very likely he understood the grisly nature of his colleague's research.
Orsino was given a Harvester ritual that used several dead bodies to assemble a flesh golem. I am rather certain he knew such research likely came with a price. I find it hard to believe he would believe such research could be accomplished hypothetically, without any sort of testing. I won't label him an accomplice but he was to a significant degree complicit in Quentin's machinations-- providing him with tomes and sharing and collaborating research notes etc.
[quote]And if he was meeting Meredith and Elthina, then okay, cool. Either way, we had a powerful mage who could take on all the Qunari by himself at the Keep, Hawke, and a contingent of templars under Meredith righ there in the area.[/quote] I don't think so. I think that is stretching his abilities. He's out of commision when we find him. He could not take on all of the Qunari by himself.
[quote]And still takes on all the qunari by himself.[/quote] I don't think so. He lures them off-screen and considering what happened to him and the mages with him I would say that is an overestimation of his abilities. It is not to say that he is weak or uskilled but able to single-handedly dispatch a group of Qunari soldiers? That's a big fat no from me.
[quote]We don't know how many qunari it took to take down him and his group of mages, but those qunari wouldn't have had any survivors either. Otherwise Orsino would've been locked up and lips sewn shut himself or dead.[/quote] Doesn't Hawke fight the Qunari they cannot kill and then a cutscene initiates showing Orisno and his decimated mages? Yes. I'm watching it now.
[quote]We don't know how the templars were doing before joining forces with Hawke. They were few in number like you said earlier. They could've been out of the fighting when it began, they could've been on the outskirts, or they could've gathered forces and fought their way to the keep, and only a few of them survived. In the chaos of a battle, it's hard to say which is the truth, and we're never told. It could be you are overestimating their abilities.[/quote] It appears to be only a small group accompanying Meredith. I would assume she was in Hightown on business-- meeting with Orsino and the Grand Cleric as he would have no reason to be there and certainly not with a group of mages on personal business. Meredith would only need a small guard with her-- and she leaves Hawke to regroup with those men. I am not suggesting the Templars were close to defeating the Qunari but they were certainly involved in the fighting. They fight off hostile Qunari allowing Hawke to enter the Keep and save the Nobility just in time when s/he would have instead been caught up in more fighting-- they were a difference maker.
[quote]Until she illegally has it in Act 3[/quote] Has she unlawfully assumed power? I know no such law prohibiting the Templar Order from holding office. I know there is a law against individual Templars holding land or power but that is not the same thing. And even if there is the line of succession is unclear and the Nobility after three years are struggling to find a suitable replacement for Dumar. She steps in to maintain order the Noble deadlock would decimate. The Nobility allows her rule as grudingly as it may be because they know they would be toothless without the Templars. And they should feel especially vulnerable after the Qunari attack and the bad City-Guard response. They can throw legal authority in Meredith's face if they wish but it would leave them open to obvious attack after the Qunari invasion has weakend them.
[quote][...]and then proceeds to keep the city from ruling itself by not allowing the nobles to choose a new Viscount, and pretty much declares only SHE can determine when to step down.[/quote] Well that is part of the masterplan of maintaining power I believe and she feels the city should be clear of its blood mage threat before a power shift should even be entertained.
[quote]And tries kicking Aveline out of the Captaincy so the templars could consolidate power[/quote] Aveline was accused of coddling her men. Unacceptable. Even more so after the city's Qunari attack. They must stay vigilant. If the Guard-Captain was not doing her job well she needs replacing. The entire rivalry path with Aveline is dedicated to questioning her ability to lead as Guard-Captain. And every regime installs their own people in important offices.
[quote]and having death squads killing mages mages non-mage families and mage sympathizers, led by an extremist she hand-picked.[/quote] I still don't see your proof against Ser Mettin acting of his own accord. Ser Agatha does not after all want any such thing and she to is assigned to the case also. And how do you know that Cullen-- the man who runs the day-to-day of the Order did not assign them this case? And if you will blame the action of every subordinate on Meredith I see it only fair on my part to do the same to Loghain. /TwoCanPlayThatGame.
[quote]Teyrn Loghain: Loghain wasn't Howe's direct superior.[/quote] He was his acting King was he not?
[quote]Howe was the arle of Amaranthine, and had since seized control of Denerim and Highever, thus giving him full economic and military control of all the coastlands.[/quote] And the significance of this? Howe would not cut off taxes to the Crown-- that would be unlawful and he could be wrestled to the mat for that by the Nobility and Loghain for treason-- and it would be an especially stupid course of action to take during a Blight when trade must flow to sustain the army. Should he cripple the economy or refuse military support he only weakens his own lands in the end.
[quote]Loghain was fighting a war against the bannorn.[/quote] A war his maneuvering onto the throne began I might add.
[quote]Howe gave military and economic support of Loghain because Loghain gave Howe more influence and power.[/quote] I don't believe Loghain gave him any such thing. I am under the impression Howe took it. At least from the Couslands that is the case. It was confirmed by David Gaider Loghain was not involved in the attack on Highever.
[quote]Much like Loghain wasn't the Cousland's direct superior[/quote] Of course not-- they were both teryns. One was not a King and the other by rank a subordinate.
[quote][...]but they answered the call of the King to muster their forces to fight the darkspawn. Their men were still under the cousland banner, and thus their command.[/quote] The Nobility of Feredlen swears fealty to their King-- they must answer his call to arms or be branded rebellious traitors. They are not given a choice.
[quote] Loghain isn't Howe's direct superior.[/quote] By situation and arrangement and rank yes he is. Its Texas Hold 'Em and Loghain has the better hand between the two.
[quote]Antagonizing Howe could've cost Loghain much needed men and supplies for the army, something he desperately needed to keep going in his attempt to unify Ferelden to fight the darkspawn...even if he was a pisspoor speaker at the Landsmeet.[/quote] I remain unconvinced. It would be dumb to deny the only protection between the darkspawn and your land the resources and cooperation it needs.
[quote]Loghain relied on the support of the banns and arls so he could have an army to fight with, and those nobles are responsible for what they do.[/quote] He assumed control of the throne sidelining even the Queen who has the most claim to it of anyone on the radar-- and is declaring the Nobility support him in another war effort after he failed in a questionable-- and fortuitous on his end-- defeat as general at Ostgar.
[quote]Loghain only becomes responsible when he and their men are on the field, and he's responsible for what they do while under his command.[/quote] Withdrawing from the battle at Ostagar being his biggest crime.
[quote]Howe was a nobleman, directly responsible for himself and his men and the actions they committed, and so long as Loghain was out in the field and Howe was not, then Howe is responsible for Howe, and the evidence of his wrongdoing does not link to Loghain.[/quote] I believe I've established Howe was indeed subverient to Loghain. And so long as Meredith's men were out in the field away from her direct supervision they are responsible for their own actions. It that not the logic you are using?
[quote]He was given his power by Loghain. He already had it or seized it.[/quote]So he simply abused the power he was granted? And Meredith's Templars can never do the same? <_< Because Meredith is a horrible villainous b*tch who revels in the pain and suffering of mages?
Her sister was a mage and she and their family sheltered her as an apostate. Do you really think Meredith would approve of assaulting or killing the families of apostates? That she as a woman and sister of a mage would approve of rape or unlawful rites of tranquility? I don't. She is human.
[quote]Meredith: Meredith on the other hand, is part of a military organization and answers to the Chantry. As Knight-Commander, she is not allowed to hold a title or land.[/quote] Individually she is not I am aware but as an organization I do not believe there is a law against the Templars holding office or acting with official authority. And I would point out there was no such law against the Grey Wardens. Why would one exist for the Templars?
[quote]Having been made Knight-Commander by Elthina (years before Orsino became First Enchanter) she proceeded to immediately enact policies that limited the already limited mage freedom.[/quote] Immediately? And you have proof she pleged a reign of terror against Circle freedoms for no reason whatsoever? If she restricted the Circle it was out of necesscity and precaution. The Circle of Magi in Kirkwall was very large and grows year after year as more and more mages are born in Kirkwall and also as mages who leave other Circles are sent to the spacious Gallows. It was the largest Circle in Thedas.
You know which state in the US has the most laws? Could be considered the least free? New York. They have by far the largest population and one of the highest crimes rates in the country. It goes hand-in-hand. More laws and restrictions are needed.
Mathmatically more mages means more trouble keeping order. New and stricter rules would be needed. And Meredith has seen what mages can be and do at their worst firsthand. Templars such as Ser Thrask have not. She makes decisions from an informed postion rather than out of sympathy that when neglected-- as Grace neglects the sympathy shown to her-- gets people killed.
The Magi will always fight against any new restrictions no matter how necessary they are and in doing so will find more restrictions and precautions placed on them as a result. I see no evidence Meredith was brutally and unreasonably oppressing the Circle.
[quote]Alrik, Kerras, and Metten were Knight-Lieutanant's under Meredith's direct chain of command.[/quote] And Howe was under Loghain in rank and in practical postion. The King's or acting King's domain is all of Ferelden and Loghain has the better hand in their situation.
[quote]She appointed them personally. Cullen's codex entry specifically says he was made Knight-Captain because he shared Meredith's view of mages.[/quote] And sharing someone's views makes you a sadist like them also? Cullen is not a rapist. He does not conduct unlawful RoTs. He does not harass or kill any families-- he takes Bethany away peacefully and leaves Hawke and Leandra be. He is Meredith's Knight-Captain-- does he not embody most closely what Meredith believes in? Those other knuckeheads had been in the Order far longer than he had. Why were they not promoted to the position? Why are Alrik and Karras used to justify Meredith as a one-demensional HBIC?
[quote]Because of the direct chain of command in a military organization, and as the person who appointed them in the first place to their positions of power, that makes Meredith directly responsible for their actions.[/quote] So regardless of the acutal situation you would blame a subordinate's actions on his leader? Okay. I will add that Cullen does not abuse his position or power as and Knight-Captain-- Meredith's second in command-- reflects her most closely but if you will continue to be so rigid concerning this matter I believe this thread of discussion is finished. And a Lieutenant though in her chain of command is not directly under her. A Knight-Lieutenant answers ultimately to Meredith-- but first to someone else.
[quote]It is her responsibility to investigate her subordinates, and to punish them for their misconduct.[/quote] And you have proof she did not?
[quote]In any military organization, the commander can be court martialed if they do not keep their subordinates in line, and are held responsible alongside the perpetrators.[/quote] And you have proof she did not investigate these matters or that she was even aware some of these unlawful activities were occuring? You give Loghain the benefit of the doubt claiming he was in the field and didn't have any knowledge that Howe tortured Nobles in his basement. Meredith is over by far the largest contingent of Templars and watches over the biggest Circle of Magi in Thedas-- how do you know she even knew about these things if they were not being reported? Alain mentions in passing he won't come forward about Karras to the Templars. And again how do you know that if she found out she didn't order an investigation?
[quote]Because Loghain wasn't Howe's direct military superior in the chain of command, Loghain isn't blamed for Howe's crimes, and the Landsmeet also agrees with this. Try linking Loghain to Howe without the support of the queen, and you'll lose the Landsmeet.[/quote] Yes Loghain was his direct superior-- military code is not needed to justify that. Loghain is acting as his King and he supports him by choice as his right hand.
[quote]Meredith, in a single military organization, the commanding officer, and the one who promoted them in the first place, is responsible for their actions and it's her duty to make sure they fall in line.[/quote] And Meredith has other Knight-Lieutenants who do not act in such a manner. And how do you know she did not investigate?
[quote]Add in that it takes the First Enchanter's AND the Knight-Commander's signatures to authorize the rite of tranquility, and the number of tranquil filling the Gallows, Meredith had to be aware.[/quote] Filling the Gallows? No. More than authorized yes but it if was not a noticablely high number of tranquil she would not be aware until it was brought to her attention.
[quote]So she either approved it secretly and was breaking Chantry Law, or was grossly incompetent. Neither of which is acceptable of a Knight-Commander.[/quote] I don't think so. She dismissed without consideration Ser Alrick's Tranquil solution. And a Knight-Lieutenant would answer first to the Knight-Captain. I see Cullen shares none of your blame however. How didn't he know about any of this if that is your logic?
[quote]My proof is that she directly appoints them, and considers them justified.[/quote] So you have none? She also appoints Cullen as her second in commmand and he is no sadist.
[quote]Ser Thrask in Act 1 says that if the mages hadn't surrendered by the time Kerras arrived, he would slaughter the lot of them and Meredith would consider his actions justified. Meaning Kerras had no intention of using diplomacy and Meredith approved of it. [/quote] Because they were obviously resisting with no intent to give themselves up despite Ser Thrask's attempts to reason with them and because apostates may be maleficarum making their resistence all the more suspicious and dangerous for the Templar tasked with bringing them in-- and we know this group in particular was proving the Templar caution correct. That is not unreasonable.
[quote]She personally appointed Ser Metten to lead the death squad, which killed not only mages, but non-mages and mage sympathizers in broad daylight, and nothing was done to the unless Hawke intervenes.[/quote] And how do you know she personally appointed Ser Mettin to the mission? And if so did she not also personally appoint Ser Agatha to the mission? Ser Agatha believes the blood mages must be found but does she act as Ser Mettin does? Do her views not match Meredith's? And again Meredith was sister to an apostate mage. She would allow such treatment of the families to occur-- I truly do not believe she would.
[quote]There is a gross abuse of templar power in Kirkwall ]and Meredith is the one personally promoting these templar extremists to Knight-Lieutanant's, and we have more than one source, Thrask mentioning it in Act 1, Cullen's codex saying he was made Knight-Captain because his views of mages matched her own, and Ser Metten's saying he was hand-picked by Meredith pretty much because of his extremisim, that Meredith approves of their drastic and completely unncecessary actions.[/quote] A gross abuse? Sounds like opinion to me. It is also rumored that Meredith submits new recruits to a demonic ritual. Was that true? It is easy to take personal dislike or opinion of someone or and argue even against them without substaniated evidence and that is what I see happening in Kirkwall. And In every organization and especially in large organizations there is going to be some level of abuse. There is nothing to suggest that in her Order theabuse is institutional or welcomed or promoted. Her views promoted yes. Abuse no.
[quote]And thus the atmosphere where mages are forced into desperate situations and are driven to blood magic, even the ones who only want to live their lives, can be placed on the templars. And the templars creating this atmosphere, were given the power to do so by Meredith. And no evidence ever comes up that contradicts this.[/quote] I don't hardly think so. Of course there is evidence to contradict this. The fact that not every mage uses blood magic when they could. The fact that there are mages who do escape connected to the quests The Last Holdouts and On The Loose return or are returned wihout issue. If it were such a horrible place-- the oppression so terrible-- why return of your own volition without a fight? The Circle is not across the board as horrible as you make it out to be. Bethany does fine in the Circle for example.
[quote]Unless you can disprove the codex entries, or show evidence that Meredith was investigating the very extremists she herself appointed, then my point stands.[/quote] It doesn't because you have no proof she did not investigate and what we know of her character says otherwise-- her personal connection the Magi. Its hard to believe she would allow abuse in the Circle when her sister was a mage she cared greatly for.
[quote]And three of them are chosen at random to be tranquilized to be used as an example.[/quote] Who and what are you referring to?
[quote]Huon was completely nuts, and taking into account the templars tortured a young dalish child with fire for information on Fenriel[/quote] And where did you hear that?
[quote]the templar commanding them says she doesn't care one whit about those 'knife-ears' and templar attitude in general to mages in Kirkwall, it's a very safe bet to say that he was driven completely nuts by the anti-elf and anti-mage attitudes of the templars.[/quote] I still don't know who you're talking about. What quest is this?
[quote]And the mages throughout Thedas, not just Kirkwall, are discontented by templar attitudes towards mages, because mages all across Thedas have declared themselves independent, so that can't just be blamed on the Starkhaven mages....who went on to say that Kirkwall was worse than Starkhaven.[/quote] Because they are discontent with all Chantry and Templar oversight. Not because they are all treated poorly. Some just flatout dislike the Circle system as necessary as it is.
[quote]I can say that the number of blood mages Hawke meets in Act's 1 and 2 number 5-7 total, which feels like a statistical normality given that we're talking about a 5 year range.[/quote] And what about the Starkhaven group and the mages and abominations under Tahrone? Your total should triple from their inclusion. And include Orsino for he had knowledge of blood magic. And we don't know the exact number of mages in the Circle that are indeed using blood magic. How many other apostates were brought into the Circle with knowledge of blood magic during the seven years (Kirkwall apostates take to the undercity after all where the Tevinter Imperium left their blood mage secrets years ago)-- how many were connected and involved in and or aware of Grace's blood mage conspiracy etc. Act 3 opens with Meredith stating rogue blood mages threaten the city constantly and Hawke can afirm her statement. It is a high and unacceptable number and the damage one blood mage can do is reason enough to be concerned about their exisistence in the Circle and in Kirkwall.
[quote]After Meredith becomes defacto Viscount, and enacts extremely strict policies on the mages and the city in general that the blood mage population rose out of control[/quote] Name her "extremely strict" policies.
[quote]I can claim that there is a direct correlation to the number of blood mages and to Meredith's policies. And blood magic is the only kind of magic that templars cannot negate, so in a sense she did drive the mages to blood magic.[/quote] Provide evidence to support this claim.
[quote]I hold individuals accountable for their individual action. If a mage lives in crappy circumstances, and uses blood magic to take away the will of others or to murder without provocation, I will gladly join the templars in that individual case and take the mage down.[/quote] They do not live is "crappy conditions". Do abuses occur? They do and it should be punished. Is it institutional? No. And do not abuses occur no matter where you live? I should assume Bethany had a better quality of life and was safer in Lowtown as a smuggler or merc. That she was never exposed to a nasty side of humanity? And you don't seem to hold individuals accountable. You are content to blame Meredith for the actions of her Lieutenants when other high ranking Templars under command do not exhibit bad behavior.
[quote]and uses blood magic to take away the will of others or to murder without provocation, I will gladly join the templars in that individual case and take the mage down. Let's put it this way, I kill Evelina because she was insane and was a danger to herself and to those around her. I blame her for the damage she causes. But I blame the circumstances that led to her becoming insane on the abuse of power by the templars.[/quote] And I still consider that too political. I will explain in another point as you have provided for me a perfect avenue to do so.
[quote]If Meredith did her duty and held the templars under her direct command responsible for their actions, propery investigated them, and weeded out the bad eggs from the good ones, then I'd hold the mages responsible 100%. Because that does not happen[/quote] And how do you know no investigation was conducted? That one did not turn up anything she could use to identify or eliminate the trouble makers? You are content to say she didn't and end of story.
[quote]I give templars their fair share of the blame.[/quote] It sounds like you give them all the blame. You feel they created the situation in Kirkwall and have yet to acknowledge there are mages like Grace and Decimius and Anders that will always be unahappy with all Chantry/Templar oversight-- that they are the most vocal against it and can exaggerate the severity of the situation and exasperate the situation and propagandize to other mages foolish enough to get caught up with them. That despite supposed unbearable conditions across the board there are mages like Finn from Witch Hunt who believe the Circle is a good place to be and mages like Bethany who come to accept their place there and the benefits it offers. You have not acknowledged there are mages that do not turn to blood magic regardless of the situation they are in-- the mages connected to the On the Loose and The Last Holdouts that are returned without incident through exposition.
[quote]In Kirkwall, I give templars the majority of the blame because of the lack of oversight and their abuse of power,[/quote] So in a contingent of Templars numbering well into the thousands-- only three renegades you can identify add up to a lack of proper oversight and abuse?
[quote]whereas in Ferelden I gave Uldred and his rebels the majority of the blame, as Gregoire was reasonable and took the proper precautions, and punished/reassigned templars who were a risk of abusing their authority or were becoming to zealous (that one templar controlled by the desire demon is implied to have been a risk to the female mages and was given a dead-end assignment and Cullen was sent to Kirkwall because Gregoire felt it wasn't healthy for Cullen to be around the mages who caused him such trauma.)[/quote] If Greagoir felt so strongly Cullen was unfit for service he should have kicked him out of the Order as Meredith kicked out Samson-- and she did so for a much lesser reason. He instead sent Cullen to a place where he would be far more comfortable-- his views shared. Where he could flourish as a Templar-- reaching the rank of Knight-Captain in a very short span of time. Greagoir is certainly looking out for the mages of Thedas!
[quote]Oh? So Loghain personally lived in Howe's castle in Denerim and knew that Howe's bedroom was in the dungeon right next to the torture room? Loghain also happened to be the one who turned nobles over to Howe?[/quote] So Meredith was personally with there renegade when they acted? She gave her personal approval to rape mages and kill families and perform unlawful RoTs?
[quote]Since the answer to both those questions is no, whereas Meredith lived in the exact same place as Alrik, and was putting Alrik into positions where he had mages in his grasp, the two circumstances are different.[/quote] Since the answer to both those question is no, whereas Loghain worked and interacted with Howe on nearly a daily basis as his right hand, and allowed Howe into postions where he had rebellious Lesser Nobles under him, the two circumstances are different.
[quote]Add in that Meredith was living in a single City-state, and Loghain was traveling across an entire country to fight a civil war. The two circumstances simply aren't comparable.[/quote] Add in that Meredith is in command of thousands Templars on a daily basis and Loghain hand only one right hand and confidant who supported him and was in his ear throughout. The two circumstances simply aren't comparable.
[quote]And many templars are corrupt idealogues, hired by the Chantry because of their religious fervor and not the strength of their character. That's a direct quote from the templar codex. ]Many templars are drug addicted religious zealots, and that's how the Chantry largely recruits.[/quote] A codex entry written by a mage. Obviously biased. I can certainly cast aspersions on it.
[quote] And Thrask, while far too trusting for his own good (I agree on that point) wasn't trying to free mages, or rebel against the Chantry. He was working to depose Meredith from power, that she legally wasn't allowed to have but pretty much kept because of military superiority....[/quote] Ser Thrask wanted a new KC-- one less strict on the mages. He certainly was working to oust Meredith from her position. He wanted things to be as they were before Meredith became KC-- ignoring the fact that the swelling population size of the Circle dictates that will never be so. Ignoring what blood magic sew in the Templar Order during Enemies Among Us. Ignoring the outcome of All That Remains and the immediate impact of such a conflict. New measures and rules and restrictions would be necessary.
[quote]and she pretty called ANYONE who disagreed with her on anything a bloodmage or under the influence of one.[/quote] I love Meredith's threats. They're crafty and come from her position of strength. She arrogantly believes that if you aren't with her you are against her and that could only be for one reason-- she feels she is in the right. But I love that sort of arrogance and political rhetoric in general. It makes the character so much more interesting. Its how arrogant politicians talk.
Like this from Scandal:
The President's advisor to the First Lady -- "After the whisper campaign we'll stir up in the party-- about how you were complict in the President's affair about how you were a frigid and a closeted lesbian about how you tore the President down for your own gain. It will be dirty and false and relentless but by the time we're done the Pack money will slow to a trickle and you won't have so much as a frenemie left inside the beltway."
[quote]Meredith shouldn't have had that power to begin with, and Thrask was right. And he accomplished something most people believed impossible. He managed to get mages and templars to work together towards a single goal, and got many of them to believe they didn't have to hate each other.[/quote] I've never thought it was impossible. Working with blood mage necromancers to prove his point that killed him the moment he said no to something they wanted doesn't show me he accomplished much of anything however. If anything it took a giant step backwards.
[quote]He trusted the wrong person, and Grace ended up ruining things for everyone because of plot stupidity, which makes absolutely no sense if you play a pro-mage Hawke. That doesn't make him wrong.[/quote] And why doesn't it make sense? Grace had seven years to stew in anger over the loss of Decimus in a Circle she did not want to be in and when the opportunity to take it out on the person who helped put her there and killed her man arose she took it. Because the quest doesn't cater to a Pro-Mage player its outcome is dumb?
[quote]And Ser Agatha has no power to do anything. Ser Metten is calling the shots. And I'll give you the lowdown of the pro-mage version. You go to a house in broad daylight. You see Ser Metten threatening the cousin of a mage, and her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on. Then, without trial, he attempts to kill her. Hawke intervenes and Metten is killed.[/quote] I'll look up the quest later myself if you don't mind. And in the Templar version the moment Ser Agatha disagrees with Ser Mettin's several Templars take up for her and her position. She has equal authority.
[quote]What she did is against Chantry law, but it clearly isn't worth the death penalty. He should've questioned her and asked where the cousin was going, or look for clues on it. Not outright try to kill her in the middle of the street. That's like saying "If you have a relative who is a fugitive, and you offer them some food and a place to sleep, you deserve death by virtue of.....deserving death."[/quote] And you think Meredith who had an aposate mage sister would have approved?
[quote]Anders: You didn't cut yourself and accidentally discover the power? (Dialogue with Merrill on how she came to learn blood magic.) It's entirely possible to use blood magic without study. You just won't know how to use specific blood-mage spells. Cole and Adrian are extremely rare cases that Gaider himself said isn't likely to happen.[/quote] To discover it and to use it to a significant end such as powering your spells and using spells derived directly from the art are two different things. The latter of which would require study. And do you have Gaider's quote?
[quote]So if it's politically incorrect, I can't pull a gun out to defend myself if someone assaults me in real life, because defending myself with a gun is bad?[/quote] Do you live in the United States? Do you know about the debate surrounding gun control? And the case of George Zimmerman would tell me that yes using a gun in self defense can be very politically incorrect and bad. Trayvon Martin an unarmed black teenager was killed supposedly in self defense with a gun-- racist motivation was suspected. There was much public outrage-- http://en.wikipedia...._Trayvon_Martin
Should a mage kill a Templar with blood magic-- and you could consider them rather unarmed against blood magic as they cannot nullify it like they can other magics-- they will be under suspicision. Their character will be in question. Their motivations. Their everything will be in question. There will be repercussions.
[quote]I don't want to discuss gun control issues, but justified self-defense is still self-defense. If I have it, but never use it (kind of like me owning a rifle, which I do....I only shoot it at shooting ranges) that doesn't mean I have to use it or I will become a killer. It just means I have a way to defend myself with.[/quote] And if ever used in self defense who you use it against, your intent, your character, and your options will be important in determining how correct or politically correct an action it was. I fall on the side of safety. I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep a rifle of any kind in their house. Handguns okay. Rifiles I don't agree with.
[quote]I don't see blood magic any differently if used to amplifly and power spells from the other schools of magic. TEWR has said repeatedly that blood magic can influence the flow of blood, which could save lives in critical injuries if you redirect the flow of blood so it doesn't gush out of a person, but stays flowing in them while the wound is treated. Blood magic healing spells are VERY POWERFUL, even if you have a crappy time healing yourself while using blood magic. How is that a bad thing?[/quote] And I have no issue with blood magic itself. It is always the intent and next the situation it is used and the mage who uses it with which I have a problem.
[quote]On a side note: A note in the Ferelden Circle shows that the mages were training with hand-to-hand weapons, when the templars cancelled the classes, and refused to allow mages the ability to learn the skills to defend themselves with things not magical. And Ferelden is one of the most liberal and mage-friendly circles. Most mages won't be able to defend themselves with knives, or have the skill to use them.[/quote] And when is this discussed? I don't remember this.
[quote]Oh? So all mental conditions occur naturally over time, and our environment, how we're treated, and emotional trauma we may or may not face has absolutely nothing to do with our psyche analysis? Really? I've learned quite differently in my sociology class in college.[/quote] And I've learned quite differently in my psychology class. A number of biological factors play a large role in mental disorder and its development. Your psychological resilience is dictated in large part by heredity. Psychology studies mental disorder as a medical science. Sociology does not. And I didn't deny that enviornment does play a role-- but it is your trigger and not the cause.
[quote]....that's quite a long post, and I'm feeling too lazy to give that one a proper read-through at the moment while I'm typing this monster of a response already (I've been working on it for about an hour.) I'll send you a raincheck for this response and discuss this later. Okay?[/quote] That's fine.
[quote]And Gaider said he did not plan on retreating until the moment he did. Let's look at it from his perspective. He had already fought a war with Orlais and had managed to drive them out. He knew Orlais had a long history of 'helping with the blights' and then conquering the country they just 'helped' (Nevarra.) He knew that the Wardens who came into the country came from Orlais, so he already suspected that they were playing politics here and weren't truly neutral. Then we have the fact the Orlesians were sending an army into Ferelden, as recommended by the Wardens, and had been told that they were bringing four legions of Chevalier's. However, when the chevalier's showed up, Riordan said they had six divisions of cavalry and infantry, and based on my knowledge, a division usually had 2 legions or so, and a legion (based on Roman Empire numbers) consisted of 3,000 to 6,000 troops. That's four times the number Ferelden was expecting. On the battlefield itself, we (Alistair and us) get held up at the tower, and Loghain doesn't know that, completely miss the signal, and light the beacon late. Cailan, fighting side-by-side the Wardens, charged out of the defensive location and got swamped on all sides. Because we know Orlais sent more troops than Loghain was told, and given Ferelden's history with Orlais and Orlais' history with conquering the people they help during blights, it's quite safe to say that Loghain was right about Orlais, even if he was wrong about the Wardens working for them. Any general in those circumstances would think the battle couldn't be won, and Loghain decided to take steps to protect Ferelden from Orlais, and chose to ignore the darkspawn. He focused on the wrong threat in the end, but wasn't wrong about Orlais.[/quote] I've heard the spill before and the fact remains Loghain did not and could not know for certain. He decided it was lost.
[quote]Becaue Meredith was right there, and she directly appointed her soldiers to the positions where they abused their power, and never punished them for it. The bannorn were already in power, and were playing politics, and Loghain was forced to deal with them.[/quote] You don't think Meredith has a lot of responsibility as Knight-Commander. She presides thousands of Templars and must attend to other duties as Knight-Commander-- the Magi and because she is KC in Kirkwall she must pay attention to politics. Do you think it possible she conducted an investigation and never found proof enough to punish them? And Loghain created that situation-- if you feel Meredith created the Circle situation you have to believe Loghain created the situation with Nobility.
[quote]The cirumstances Loghain and Meredith lived in were completely different, as was their ability to admit their own fault. Loghain admits his fault by saying to the Warden that the warden has a strength he hadn't seen since Maric died and he tells Alistair (should Alistair duel him) that there was more of Maric in him than he thought, and admits he thought the Warden to be like Cailan, a child playing at war. Meredith cannot accept she's wrong under any circumstance, and when presented proof that Orsino wasn't involved in Thrask's rebellion, dismisses it out of hand and says Hawke is a victim of blood magic.[/quote] Loghian admits no fault. Have you played Return to Ostagar with him in the party? He admits no fault and says he would do everything the same way knowing the outcome given the chance.
[quote]That calls into question her ability to lead or to deal with a problem if she doesn't acknowledge the evidence of the truth when presented, unlike Loghain.[/quote] Loghain acknowledges no guilt. None at all.
[quote]And I wouldn't consider myself pro-mage so much as I am pro-whoever-the-heck-happens-to-have-the-moral-high-ground in individual circumstances.[/quote] And I never simply leave a decision to the moral highground. Tough decisions are made all the time. A leader is expected to make the tough decision.
[quote]In Ferelden I felt Gregoire was more than up to the task, completely reasonable, if a little biased towards the Chanry, and genuinely liked the guy.[/quote] A little biased? He is heavily implied he would raze the Circle to the ground had he the reinforcements to do so.
[quote]Punish the individual for the individual crime. If an organization has a direct chain of command, then I fully expect the leaders to hold their subordinates accountable for their actions.[/quote] And I don't know why you assume she wouldn't hold them accountable.
[quote]Don't declare a right of annulment for a crime the circle had nothing to do with, or because seers happen to be in contact with their families. That is in effect, genocide on the flimsiest of reasons, and no amount of spinning the facts will change the situation. The templars, and Meredith, simply did not have the justification to slaughter hundreds of men, women, and children for a crime they did not commit. Nor did Meredith even look for an alternative the moment she had the authority to call for the Right of Annulment on the most bare-bone technicalities.[/quote] She doesn't call the RoA because of Anders actions only. She had called it long before The Last Straw on the suspicion of widespread Circle Corruption but Elthina would not grant her the Right. All That Remains, Best Serered Cold, On The Loose, and The Last Holdouts have taken place her suspicions are legitimate.
Orsino is uncooperative and outspoken against any Templar action or precaution-- at the beginning of Act 3 if you point out he fights Meredith at every turn-- her investigation into blood magic in the Circle the most-- he says he's done cooperating with her. We know something is up and she isn't getting the cooperation of the Magi-- what else can she do? The RoA is her last choice but it is her duty. She didn't default to it.
The city riot is an extra or rather it seals the deal-- The Chantry was blown up with a magical bomb that sent debris flying all over the city-- catching buildings on fire flatout destroying property and no doubt killing and injuring hundreds if not thousands. The Nobility likely suffered the worst as their estates are in Hightown-- Kirkwall's leadership and economic center is now decimated. There are looters in the streets etc. Its chaos. Quite literally in this situation there is No Church In The Wild.
And magic slew Kirkwall's beloved Grand Cleric. Its insane in a city that has been thrown in turmoil over recurring and high profile uses of magic again and again throughout its history and certainly recently-- blood magic in particular-- and its legitimatly suspected many of the current Circle mages are blood mages discontent with the Circle/Templars and Chantry-- relations are totally breaking down before the public eye and it seemed only a matter of time before they acted violently. I will add MLK's assassination during racially tense times sparked several riots across the country and there are several noteworthy similarities between him and Elthina.
A riot was inevitable to me. IMO there is no question the public would tear down the Gallows stone-by-stone to get at the mages if they had to. Asunder details a similar situation-- the mages are public enemy number one. And Meredith can't put down a city-wide riot. She can't turn her blade against the public as acting Viscountess. Political suicide. And that action puts the future of the Templar Order in Kikrwall period in question. If I were Meredith I wouldn't even give it a chance to reach the Gallows because she won't be appreciated for her hesitation or sticking up for the mages as Evangeline wasn't, and any political support or favor the public has shown her would suffer an instant death. Good luck keeping order in or control of the city after that.
Would you kill one group to save another-- the majority as the city will tear itself apart if the end-game situation is allowed to progress further? Would you kill innocents in the name of the greater good as blood magic is one of the greatest of dangers? That is what the end-game decision is about. Its not about Meredith being a madwoman who wants to kill all mages for no reason.
I side with her because its obvious the Circle is corrupt on a sizable scale-- a ticking time bomb that if left to fester-- left to organize as the Resolutionists or as Grace's group-- would overthrow the Knight-Commander they despise and create real chaos-- sow real trouble for what would be a defenseless Kirkwall. Something must be done and I stand with Meredith.
No, but that was the point I was trying to make, that whatever comfort Circle Mages have is at least equaled by the dangerous situation they find themselves in simply by living in the Circle.[/quote] Why make it to me? I said nothing related to that.
[quote]...and Meredith wasn't exactly as good a KC as Griegor was either.[/quote] And explain to me how Greagoir was better.
[quote]Truth be told, both sides suffered from a lack of leadership. Things probably would have gone better if Cullen replaced Meredith and Bethany replaced Orsino.[/quote] Cullen holds the same views Meredith does for the most part as her second in command. And I doubt Bethany would want the position or that she could even aquire it as a new mage to the Circle that had been a life long apostate.
[quote]Regarding Orsino being a blood mage, we only have evidence of him actually using blood magic when he flips his wig at the end of the game.[/quote] He knew blood magic extensively-- to the level he knew how to perform a harvester ritual. That makes him a blood mage IMO. He may not have practiced it regularly and he may have practiced it in only that instance but he is still a blood mage.
[quote]First off, where did you get that quote?[/quote] I quoted myself from several months ago.
[quote]What is said in their does make a lot of sense.[/quote] Why thank you.
[quote]There does need to be a cultural change in the Circle and the Chantry's approach thereto. The Lucrosian approach would make a lot of sense in that regard as well if it works. It gives mages more freedoms, could ease tensions between the Templars and the Circle by making the Circle a lot more self-sustaining.[/quote] Exactly.
[quote]As for my plans for the Magi. Well if I was running things now in it would be "survive the war".[/quote] If I were in charge it would be to hand the Magi under me over to Templars and Seekers loyal to Justinia. From there you can negotiate these changes for a reformed Circle of Magi and leave the others who don't want to go back to die by themselves at Andoral's Reach. The Loyalists will go back to the Circle with no issue. +1. The Libertarians will stay and fight and likely half of the Aequitarian Franternity or more and the Isolationists will stay too-- but I would imagine the majority of Lucrosians would go back to the Circle. You can't become a merchant when you're an apostate on the run now can you?
I would need a strong Lucrosian voice to step forth and become the leader of the Magi in this situation. The Loyalists will not produce a leader that others will follow and the Aequitarians that parley with Justinia would be leaderless-- and really they have no practical approach on how to reform the Circle. All they have is talk about how mages can be trusted with responsibility and talk is cheap-- I don't think they have a leg to stand on either as their leader voted to fight after all. But the Lucrosians are a neutral party philosophically-- the won't bend over for the Chantry but they don't hate them either and are smart enough to realize they could use Chantry help to aquire wealth that will change the Circle and eventually lead to independence.
[quote]But if you're asking how I would have made things better before everyone started breaking away from the Chantry? Well I would create a system of checks and balances among the three organizations involved (i.e. the Circle of Magi, the Templar Order and the Chantry), so that you don't get too much power resting in .[/quote] Sounds very Aequitarian. Why aren't there more Lucrosians out there? I'm starting to think its just me and Hazegurl. And I'm not sure how you would prevent the situation that exists now however as this system basically exists already. The Templars are the watchers of the Magi and the Seekers watch the Templars. The Templars and Seekers did not give up their power to the Chantry they pleged it to them with the creation of the Circle of Magi and that is different. They are adjacent to the Chantry and not under it. And even now they don't appreciate heavy handed Chantry interference in their duties.
[quote]I would also encourage that cultural change that was mentioned by discouraging the idea that mages are inherently evil.[/quote] Justinia is doing that.
[quote]One of my weirder ideas was also to allow some mages to join the Templar Order. Serving together might give the Templars a better general opinion of mages and mages a better general opinion of Templars.[/quote] Perhaps one day but I don't see that happening without precedent or real provocation.
[quote]Sure the Rite of Tranquility has it's uses, just like the death penalty does. And yeah some mages do opt for Tranquility. As far as reversing Tranquility...well it's a very new concept. Thus far only one mages has had Tranquility reversed and as a side-effect he became overly emotional, which some people might say is just as bad. Basically it'd require more research before being used regularly.[/quote] Rhys can research it. If he survives. If we do see him in DA3 I'm going to give him a good smack upside his head before dragging him back to the Circle to research it with other spirit mediums. Dis fool cast the deciding vote after all. He's lucky he won't get off with worse.
Your sentiment is admirable youth4ever but i will still vote for the complete destruction of the chantry and the templars. No matter how benevolent the chantry and templar may become it doesn't change the fact that they actively hinder the progress of magical research . Which several major threats looming on the horizon (Cory, intelligent darkspawn, OGB´s and Qunuari ) absolute knowledge and mastery of magic is required .
Youth4Ever wrote... Sounds very Aequitarian. Why aren't there more Lucrosians out there? I'm starting to think its just me and Hazegurl. And I'm not sure how you would prevent the situation that exists now however as this basically exists now. The Templars are the watchers of the Magi and the Seekers watch the Templars. The Templars and Seekers did not give up their power to the Chantry they pleged it to them with the creation of the Circle of Magi and that is different. They are adjacent to the Chantry and not under it. And even now they don't appreciate heavy handed Chantry interference in their duties.
Hmph....Lucrosians are just Aequitarians who took a course in economics.
But seriously, real quick on some of the previous stuff. Greigor was better because he managed to be Knight-Commander without having the mages under his charge whisper rebellion and actually get help from some of his own Templars with that rebellion.
Cullen may hold similar views as Meredith, but he's also less extreme, another reason why Greigor is better. After all if you side with the Templars he is in favor of sparing the mages who surrendered, Meredith just wants to use them for piñata practice.
As far as the current situation, or the DA situation, no organization likes another organization influencing theirs. The Circle doesn't Templars don't the Seekers sure as heck don't and not even the Chantry does. But the problem is if you don't have that then one organization gets to make up all it's own rules. And that leads to corruption.
Your sentiment is admirable youth4ever but i will still vote for the complete destruction of the chantry and the templars. No matter how benevolent the chantry and templar may become it doesn't change the fact that they actively hinder the progress of magical research . Which several major threats looming on the horizon (Cory, intelligent darkspawn, OGB´s and Qunuari ) absolute knowledge and mastery of magic is required .
If the Chantry doesn't need to be "destroyed". The Circle isn't even trying for that. If the Circle gets what it wants then they can research magic to their hearts content and the Chantry won't be able to say boo about it, because the Circle won't be under the Chantry's supervision anymore.
Hmph....Lucrosians are just Aequitarians who took a course in economics.
You can switch sides. You know all the cool kids are doing it.
But seriously, real quick on some of the previous stuff. Greigor was better because he managed to be Knight-Commander without having the mages under his charge whisper rebellion and actually get help from some of his own Templars with that rebellion.
Then explain Uldred.
Cullen may hold similar views as Meredith, but he's also less extreme, another reason why Greigor is better. After all if you side with the Templars he is in favor of sparing the mages who surrendered, Meredith just wants to use them for piñata practice.
Explain Cullen being less extreme. And Greagoir sent Cullen to Kirkwall were he would be more comfortable and his views shared. And Meredith cannot allow the mages to surrender-- her career as KC and acting Viscountess in Kirkwall would not survive the literal and metaphorical riot would that ensue if she did. The future of the Templar Order itself in that city would be in question. There is a reason she tells Orsino his offer to investigate with her was commendable but came too late. He shouldn't have rebuffed her previous attempts to do her job.
As far as the current situation, or the DA situation, no organization likes another organization influencing theirs. The Circle doesn't Templars don't the Seekers sure as heck don't and not even the Chantry does. But the problem is if you don't have that then one organization gets to make up all it's own rules. And that leads to corruption.
And the problem is you cannot force the Templars to give up their powers. You would have to negotiate and if there is nothing beneficial in a new agreement for them why would they agree to becoming weaker as an organization?
You can switch sides. You know all the cool kids are doing it.
If the Lucrosians jumped of a bridge would you?
Then explain Uldred.
Loghain.
Explain Cullen being less extreme. And Greagoir sent Cullen to Kirkwall were he would be more comfortable and his views shared. And Meredith cannot allow the mages to surrender-- her career as KC and acting Viscountess in Kirkwall would not survive the literal and metaphorical riot would that ensue if she did. The future of the Templar Order itself in that city would be in question. There is a reason she tells Orsino his offer to investigate with her was commendable but came too late. He shouldn't have rebuffed her previous attempts to do her job.
Oh come on. First there's going to be a riot if she doesn't annul the Circle, then there's going to be a riot if she spares three mages who surrender. What's next?
"Pardon me, First Enchanter Orsino, may I have the last jelly-filled donut? I fear that if I'm denied it the people will call for blood." - Knight Commander Meredith
And the problem is you cannot force the Templars to give up their powers. You would have to negotiate and if there is nothing beneficial in a new agreement for them why would they agree to becoming weaker as an organization?
Depends on whether the Templars are paying their own bills and salaries or if the Chantry is.
You're jumping off another metaphorical bridge with the Aequitarians now by waiting for death at Andoral's Reach. If you must jump off a bridge with Lucrosians you will at least die knowing that you first exercised all of your alternatives.
Loghain.
So it was Loghain who taught the mages and apprentices blood magic in secret long before the hint of any Blight or Ostagar? Okie.
Explain Cullen being less extreme. And Greagoir sent Cullen to Kirkwall were he would be more comfortable and his views shared. And Meredith cannot allow the mages to surrender-- her career as KC and acting Viscountess in Kirkwall would not survive the literal and metaphorical riot would that ensue if she did. The future of the Templar Order itself in that city would be in question. There is a reason she tells Orsino his offer to investigate with her was commendable but came too late. He shouldn't have rebuffed her previous attempts to do her job.
Oh come on.
???
First there's going to be a riot if she doesn't annul the Circle, then there's going to be a riot if she spares three mages who surrender. What's next?
Did I say anything about the surrender of three mages? She cannot spare the whole Circle. Now you're trying to side-step the actual situation.
"Pardon me, First Enchanter Orsino, may I have the last jelly-filled donut? I fear that if I'm denied it the people will call for blood." - Knight Commander Meredith
SMH. You should re-read what you quoted. Nowhere did I say that the surrender of those three mages you mention would lead to a riot. I didn't even mention them at all. She cannot spare the whole Circle however.
Depends on whether the Templars are paying their own bills and salaries or if the Chantry is.
I would assume the Chantry. Where would the Templars make money to support themselves as an Order? But if you threaten to dock or deny their pay in favor of abstract Circle mage independences don't expect them to love you for it or treat the mages under their care any better. That would go a long way towards making the Circle situation more hostile and volatile overall.
And that is assuming they do not decide the Chantry has overstepped its bounds and take measures, perhaps stir up a slanderous whipser campaign against mage-loving Justinia that forces her to drop the issue altogether, or assuming that they don't pull away from the institution entirely leaving it toothless without an army, and Justinia without so much as a frenemy left inside Orlais-- one threat traded for another.
Well, obviously Anders (And, through their actions leading up to the ending, Meredith, other extremist templars and I guess Orsino) has left us between a rock and a hard place. The conflict has escalated way too far and every choice will lead to a lot of death and chaos.
However, while it's possible (and I guess, likely) that siding with the mages will result in a higher death toll among innocents, I still think it's the right thing to do. The difference for me is that one is accidental, the other calculated. Yes, civilians are going to die in the crossfire and it's horrible. But participating in the active murder of innocents to prevent the accidental murder of other innocents (Even if those should be more numerous) - No, I can't justify that to myself.
I think there's a lot of assumption here that the reason why the entire city is in flames in Last Straw is because mages are going around torching everyone and everything. I think it's far more likely that the reason the whole city is in shambles is because one of the biggest buildings in town has just blown up and rubble scattered everywhere.
I think given that Templars have declared it open season on mages, any mages who are escaping will make a b-line for the nearest exit to the city.
Youth4Ever wrote... You're jumping off another metaphorical bridge with the Aequitarians now by waiting for death at Andoral's Reach. If you must jump off a bridge with Lucrosians you will at least die knowing that you first exercised all of your alternatives.
You can't jump off Metaphorical Bridge, they put guard rails around it.
So it was Loghain who taught the mages and apprentices blood magic in secret long before the hint of any Blight or Ostagar? Okie.
He provided Uldred with the motivation. Plus even if Uldred was going to flip out and go abom anyway, Griegor still didn't have (a) his own Templars doubting his ability enough to revolt, and ( he still managed to deal with the situation without resorting to a "kill all mages no matter what" stance. His allowing Irving to live as well as the other survivors proves he's more mentally stable then Meredith.
Another point in Greigor's favor above Meredith...he's not possessed by a lyrium artifact,
Explain Cullen being less extreme. And Greagoir sent Cullen to Kirkwall were he would be more comfortable and his views shared. And Meredith cannot allow the mages to surrender-- her career as KC and acting Viscountess in Kirkwall would not survive the literal and metaphorical riot would that ensue if she did. The future of the Templar Order itself in that city would be in question. There is a reason she tells Orsino his offer to investigate with her was commendable but came too late. He shouldn't have rebuffed her previous attempts to do her job.
Well you asked me to prove Cullen was less extreme then Meredith. My evidence of that was that he is in favor of sparing the three mages that surrender. Then you mentioned that Meredith not being able to allow the mages to surrender, so I was assuming you were saying that the city would literally riot over the sparing of those three mages. Which is why I was sarcastic.
He is less extreme, though. The fact that he spared them where Meredith would see them dead is proof enough.
I would assume the Chantry. Where would the Templars make money to support themselves as an Order? But if you threaten to dock or deny their pay in favor of abstract Circle mage independences don't expect them to love you for it or treat the mages under their care any better. That would go a long way towards making the Circle situation more hostile and volatile overall.
And that is assuming they do not decide the Chantry has overstepped its bounds and take measures, perhaps stir up a slanderous whipser campaign against mage-loving Justinia that forces her to drop the issue altogether, or assuming that they don't pull away from the institution entirely leaving it toothless without an army, and Justinia without so much as a frenemy left inside Orlais-- one threat traded for another.
The point is that in an ideal situation there should be a system of checks and balances in place in regards to this whole Circle/Order/Chantry system. In order to pull that off you'd need to have more moderates in places of leadership in the Order, and also in the Chantry.
Having thought about it, I believe not enough blame is placed upon Orsino's shoulders. Yes, Meredith was extremely difficult to work with, but where we had Gregoire and Irving both trying to out blood mages in Ferelden, Orsino himself is a blood mage and protecting at least a one infamous maleficar.
That's why I always consider Orsino just as responsible for how bad things got with Meredith. I don't know why some people keep acting like Meredith was wrong to accuse the Kirkwall circle of harboring blood mages even after finding out that the Grand Enchanter was one.
You can't jump off Metaphorical Bridge, they put guard rails around it.
If you're feeling froggy-- jump. Guard rails won't stop you.
He provided Uldred with the motivation.
Uldred was practicing blood magic and teaching it to his apprentices and spreading it to other Enchanters long before Ostagar. The Codex Entry: Irving's Mistake hints clearly at this. And in reviewing the timetable of events from Ostagar to Broken Circle it is the only explanation. Uldred bargained with Loghain at Ostagar and returned to the Circle to cement support. A meeting was called to vote on separation upon his arrival-- it ended in a demonic blood bath. He could not have taught apprentices and Enchanters to effectively use the art in such a short span of time.
The Codex Entry: Promises of Pride also demonstrate the long standing Libertarian intent depicting Uldred as the head of the snake. For example, "If blood must be shed and used, so be it. I will follow when he calls. The yoke must be released, whatever the cost." Enchanter Prist, Libertarian and Uldred will show us the way. Finally, recognition within the Circle and freedom from the scornful eye of the templars. We will not be shunned. Be ready. --Enchanter Gravid, Libertarian.
"...freedom from the scornful eye of the templars." ??? According to them, everything was not so swell under KC Greagoir.
Plus even if Uldred was going to flip out and go abom anyway, Griegor still didn't have (a) his own Templars doubting his ability enough to revolt
I don't think we've spent enough time at the Ferelden Circle of Magi under normal circumstances to know that. Cullen in the Magi origin dislikes the seemingly strict atmpshere Greagoir has in place.
and ( he still managed to deal with the situation without resorting to a "kill all mages no matter what" stance.
He didn't resolve anything. Had the Warden not come along, it is heavily implied he would have razed the entire Circle to the ground the moment reinforcements arrived from Denerim.
His allowing Irving to live as well as the other survivors proves he's more mentally stable then Meredith. Another point in Greigor's favor above Meredith...he's not possessed by a lyrium artifact.
More jabs at Meredith. There is a reason she wishes to complete the annulment in its entirety. You can disagree with it but as she tells Cullen her view of no possible blood mage abominations should escape death is vaild. Its the other side of Cullen's coin-- and not an indication of mental instability. Especially when opportunity to be spared their fate has been previously provided and rejected collectively-- had Orsino cooperated with her from the begining over the Circle blood mage isssue, the RoA wouldn't have been called at all. The Qunari Ketojan is executed by the Avarad the moment he turns himself over to their custody because of possible contamination. That is their way as a society. Are they mentally unstable?
And you don't know Meredith is in possession of the artifact until the very end of the game and you can see her reasoning throughout Acts 2 and 3. Why write off her every action as insane? Its a rather cheap analysis of her character.
Well you asked me to prove Cullen was less extreme then Meredith. My evidence of that was that he is in favor of sparing the three mages that surrender.
I'd say that is a disagreement over responsiblity and not evidence of extremity.
Then you mentioned that Meredith not being able to allow the mages to surrender, so I was assuming you were saying that the city would literally riot over the sparing of those three mages. Which is why I was sarcastic.
That is not what I was saying.
He is less extreme, though. The fact that he spared them where Meredith would see them dead is proof enough.
I'd say he's softer-hearted though not as blind as Thrask. Meredith is hard nosed. Stiff backed and eagle eyed.
The point is that in an ideal situation there should be a system of checks and balances in place in regards to this whole Circle/Order/Chantry system. In order to pull that off you'd need to have more moderates in places of leadership in the Order, and also in the Chantry.
And the method of achieving a workable compromise is just as important as the ideal itself. And really you don't need more moderates in power. It would be nice but you don't need it. They will have to heed the majority or be cut from the system like gangrene cut from the body.
Anders point is proven. Anders, one renegade mage who has nothing to do with circle kills the grand cleric, ALL mages in the circle get punished for it. A Templar goes rouge aka renegade and makes mages tranquil for fun and even kills them, ONLY that Templar gets punished for it not even the people who helped him do it. This is the definition of injustice.
You might not see the picture here. Notice the true happiness on Anders face when he dies. He is a martyr who achieved what he wanted he is a hero to all mages in Thedas. Meredith on the other hand turned on her own people and died in extreme amounts of agony and pain. She utterly failed in everything she was suppose to do and betrayed every single Templar code and she is definitely no hero and was even stripped of her title by Cullen. She is a heretic to the Templar Order.
And this is not all, Anders don't die in all playthroughs. This is what basically can happen:
Anders is kissed by his lover while Meredith is turned into a stone. poor Sebastian.
Hawke and Anders escape and live happily and eventually eradicating Templar Order.
Retour en haut
)
[/quote]
