615 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Lilirara wrote...
Although a point can be made that by seeing Hawke join templars the mages have become all the more desperate and more prone to use blood magic, I honestly can't remember th ratio of bloodmages in case of joining templars vs mages, probably should play both battles one more time, but I did have an impression there were more bloodmages in case of temlar-oriented Hawke, and these are the most dangerous kind.

That's a fair point. Yes, there are more blood mages and demons should Hawke side against the mages.
But I don't believe that these Circle mages learned how to summon and control demons on the spot neither do I believe that Orsino managed to flawlessly perform something like creating an Harvester without some heavy insight into blood magic and necromancy which is why I tend to believe the Circle really was corrupted and the reason Orsino was so against Meredith performing a search was because he knew she would find incriminatory evidence.
Thus, even if the mages don't summons demons in front of Hawke in the Mage ending, that doesn't mean they are not summoning them in other areas of the city.

But, just as well, the general principle of fighting against injustice, as well as Hawke's personal family circumstances (either being a mage, or having a mage sister) are legit and can be used as justification towards joining mages.

Yes, of course. I never meant to say there are no legitimate reasons to side with the Mages. I'm simply defending the option of siding with the Templars.

[TEWR]

Repeating it doesn't make your argument stronger because the mages likely couldn't care less about any death squads so long as they were not targeting their own families.

Actually, they do care.

Even those who might want to leave would understand that there is strength in numbers and that it's better if they stick together and that a mass exodus would lead to them being hunted by other Templars from the Free Marches and on the field, they would lack the defenses Kirkwall possesses.

Actually, Orsino tells his charges to go to the remaining Circles and inform them of what transpired in Kirkwall, something they all agree with. Throw in Varric's testimony of how there were many survivors and how word of it spread to the other Circles -- plus Asunder confirming word spread -- and it's easy to see that the Mages of Kirkwall's Circle went to others and joined those Circles.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, they do care.

Why would they care?

Actually, Orsino tells his charges to go to the remaining Circles and inform them of what transpired in Kirkwall, something they all agree with. Throw in Varric's testimony of how there were many survivors and how word of it spread to the other Circles -- plus Asunder confirming word spread -- and it's easy to see that the Mages of Kirkwall's Circle went to others and joined those Circles.

Orsino told his charges to warn the rest of the Circle the RoA had been called which is something he does himself in the Templar ending.
The mages joined other Circles because, even if Hawke sides with them, s/he is not capable of defeating the Templars. All Hawke can do is serve as a meat shield while some mages escape.
In this second scenario I presented, Hawke defeated the templars. There are no more in Kirkwall or so few that they don't matter thus, the mages have more options.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, they do care. [/quote]
Why would they care?[/quote]

Guys, you can't really argue hypotheticals like that.  Maybe they care, maybe they don't.  Maybe 40% care, maybe 60% don't.  You could go round and round like that forever. 

[quote]Orsino told his charges to warn the rest of the Circle the RoA had been called which is something he does himself in the Templar ending.
The mages joined other Circles because, even if Hawke sides with them, s/he is not capable of defeating the Templars. All Hawke can do is serve as a meat shield while some mages escape.
In this second scenario I presented, Hawke defeated the templars. There are no more in Kirkwall or so few that they don't matter thus, the mages have more options.[/quote][/quote]

There's no real reason to assume that you're hypothetical second scenario would have ever occurred.  If you fight with the mages you're more or less cutting through Templars until Meredith goes all lyrium-crazylegs on you.  At that point the mage rebellion and the Rite of Annulment are officially postponed for the much more pressing concern of "Let's kill the glowing mad woman."  After that's taken care of and the Gallows is finally free from those eyesore statues Cullen let's Hawke and Co. go.  In order for Hawke to kill the Templars, or enough of them so that they wouldn't matter, they'd have to say "Well forget the fact that I'm surrounded on all sides by these Templars and they're swords are drawn and ready to run me through, I'm gonna fight!"  Don''t see as how that'd happen.

What's more, and sorry if this has been addressed, there's no reason to assume that the mages would stick around Kirkwall.  They stand slim chance against the Templars in Kirkwall, and even less chance against the reinforcements from Orlais (or wherever the reinforcements come from).  They're not trying to take the city, they're trying to survive.  That's why Orsino tells them to get out of Dodge during the mage-ending.  I really don't think most mages would stick around town.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 02 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?

Pretty much this for me. Hawke has to consider more than just the lives of one group of people. While I feel for the mages, it's not worth it to throw everyone else under a bus just to save them. If some mages managed to escape with their lives, so be it. I won't track them down as I'm no Templar. But with Kirkwall full of incompetent leaders someone has to step forward and protect the people there.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?

Pretty much this for me. Hawke has to consider more than just the lives of one group of people. While I feel for the mages, it's not worth it to throw everyone else under a bus just to save them. If some mages managed to escape with their lives, so be it. I won't track them down as I'm no Templar. But with Kirkwall full of incompetent leaders someone has to step forward and protect the people there.

Perhaps you may have point if it was actually true.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle? 

Pretty much this for me. Hawke has to consider more than just the lives of one group of people. While I feel for the mages, it's not worth it to throw everyone else under a bus just to save them. If some mages managed to escape with their lives, so be it. I won't track them down as I'm no Templar. But with Kirkwall full of incompetent leaders someone has to step forward and protect the people there.

All the mages are doing is fighting against the templars who are attempting to execute them for an act they had nothing to do with. Helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children isn't protecting the rest of Kirkwall.

[Lazy Jer]

An important question here that should at least be asked is this: "Is it predictable by Hawke that the city would be set ablaze as a result of the mages fighting against the Rite of Annulment?" Understand that the city is set ablaze whether you support the mages or not, and if memory serves you fight the same amount of demons and abominations if you support the mages as you do supporting the Templars.

Also keep in mind that the mages are mostly by the Circle of Magi in the Gallows, which is a tower at the center of a lake. Also, if memory serves there is access to the open seas in the gallows courtyard, so if may not have been necessary for the mages to go too far past the docks if they were seeking to skip town.

On the other hand it is a rebellion, of sorts, and a lot of these mages have been locked up most of their lives, and there are some of them who practice blood magic, so there is some chaos that will inevitably ensue as a result. Another thing to keep in mind as well, though, is that Aveline's City Guards aren't connected with the Templars in any way. They have one duty, protect Kirkwall. So ideally they're doing something to keep the citizens safe while all this is going on.

So basically there are TWO questions:

1. Is it predictable that the city will be set ablaze as a result of the mages fighting against the Rite of Annulment; and

2. How much danger are the citizens really in?

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Guys, you can't really argue hypotheticals like that.  Maybe they care, maybe they don't.  Maybe 40% care, maybe 60% don't.  You could go round and round like that forever.

It's a valid question. People doesn't usually care if people they've never met die.
In fact, I could see some mages gaining some degree of pleasure from knowing the mundanes are learning what it means to be ruled by Meredith.

There's no real reason to assume that you're hypothetical second scenario would have ever occurred.  If you fight with the mages you're more or less cutting through Templars until Meredith goes all lyrium-crazylegs on you.  At that point the mage rebellion and the Rite of Annulment are officially postponed for the much more pressing concern of "Let's kill the glowing mad woman."  After that's taken care of and the Gallows is finally free from those eyesore statues Cullen let's Hawke and Co. go.  In order for Hawke to kill the Templars, or enough of them so that they wouldn't matter, they'd have to say "Well forget the fact that I'm surrounded on all sides by these Templars and they're swords are drawn and ready to run me through, I'm gonna fight!"  Don''t see as how that'd happen.

When you start a fight, the possibility that you will win the fight exists unless it's a curbstomp battle which is not what happens at the end of DA2. I simply considred what would happen had the mages won which can happen for many reasons. Maybe they attracted the templars into the Gallows and collapsed it on their heads, maybe Orsino performed blood magic in the middle of the templar ranks.
If you don't believe that the mages could ever win, then simply revert to the first scenarion proposed in the OP.

What's more, and sorry if this has been addressed, there's no reason to assume that the mages would stick around Kirkwall.  They stand slim chance against the Templars in Kirkwall, and even less chance against the reinforcements from Orlais (or wherever the reinforcements come from).  They're not trying to take the city, they're trying to survive.  That's why Orsino tells them to get out of Dodge during the mage-ending.  I really don't think most mages would stick around town.

It has been adressed. In the OP, in fact.
I see some mages staying because their families are in Kirkwall. Others might stay because the sudden victory would empower them which might overrule their common sense.
Even those who might wish to live would realise that there is a strenght in numbers and that a mass exodus would lead to them being targeted outside of Kirkwall where they don't have the city's defenses.

Lazy Jer wrote...
Another thing to keep in mind as well,
though, is that Aveline's City Guards aren't connected with the Templars
in any way. They have one duty, protect Kirkwall. So ideally they're
doing something to keep the citizens safe while all this is going on.

Certainly, but they don't have the training and abilities required to fight mages.

1. Is it predictable that the city will be set ablaze as a result of the mages fighting against the Rite of Annulment; and

Everyone knows magic is dangerous. Having mages fighting in the streets will lead to massive damage to the city. That is easily predictable.

2. How much danger are the citizens really in?

Mages out of control, summoning destructive spells, demons, becoming possessed, using civillians as blood dools to power their spells, etc. I'd say the danger is substantial.
I attempted to use a mathematical scenario to exemplify what is likely to happen. I am the first to admit that it is not flawless given the lack of concrete numbers plus the failure to account for casualties of the side Hawke sides with and factors such as the mages retreating to the Gallows but I still think it is a good example.

The number of templar combatants are more numerous that the mage combatants given the fact they don't have a civillian population. Likewise, the mages are a minority when compared to the kirkwallers.Let's say that there are 100 combat ready mages against 300 templars with a thousand civillians in the middle.
Whoever has Hawke assisting can kill 25 enemies per round with 50 civillians dying per round as well.

So, if Hawke sides with the mages, it will take 12 rounds to defeat the templars which leads to the death of 600 innocent civilians. You've killed six innocent people for every mage you saved.

On the other hand, if Hawke sides with the templars, it will take only four rounds to defeat them all which means that only 200 civillians die. That is a difference of 400 innocent people which is four times the number of the
mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 avril 2013 - 09:48 .

[DKJaigen]

FFS people you cannot counter fiction with fact , no matter how well you debunk his fiction. Because JB will counter you fact with more fiction. You cannot ever win so just ignore it.

JB what your saying didnt happen so GTFO kthxby.

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?

Pretty much this for me. Hawke has to consider more than just the lives of one group of people. While I feel for the mages, it's not worth it to throw everyone else under a bus just to save them. If some mages managed to escape with their lives, so be it. I won't track them down as I'm no Templar. But with Kirkwall full of incompetent leaders someone has to step forward and protect the people there.

Perhaps you may have point if it was actually true.

And which part is not the truth?

That Kirkwall is full of incompetent leaders.
That mages who escape with their lives should be allowed to be free.
That you're being asked to choose between Kirkwall and Mages at the end of the game.

LobselVith8 wrote...
All the mages are doing is fighting against the
templars who are attempting to execute them for an act they had nothing
to do with. Helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children
isn't protecting the rest of Kirkwall.

And while they are fighting, demons will be running amok as they attempt to flee Templars. Not to mention the hidden blood mages who will be casting spells etc. I don't see how helping mages is protecting Kirkwall. Apparently the devs don't believe that either, hence why Hawke turns his back on the city and walk away.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 avril 2013 - 08:54 .

[dunstan1993]

As much as it pains me, I side with the Templars. I believe that Mages should be allowed the same freedom and liberty as anyone else, but In that scenario I have a hard time committing to the Mage's defence. I will fight for their freedom, but not alongside Demons and blood magic.

Meredith is going to call in the right of annulment no matter what, Mages will turn to demons and blood magic no matter what (ect. We know the score). I think someone mentioned "damage control" earlier, that's probably one of the bigger underlying reason for my siding with Templars. Get rid of the Demons and blood mages, the innocent mages are the price that has to be paid unfortunately.

Truth of the matter is peaceful resistance is the way forward, this could've all been avoided had Anders decided that destroying a Chantry and the people in it wasn't the way to earn the people's trust. But that probably wouldn't have been a very fun game to play, posting fliers around and signing petitions.
But still, Anders.. what a fool. 

Modifié par dunstan1993, 04 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Perhaps you may have point if it was actually true. 

And which part is not the truth?

That Kirkwall is full of incompetent leaders.
That mages who escape with their lives should be allowed to be free.
That you're being asked to choose between Kirkwall and Mages at the end of the game.

Considering that Hawke is asked to choose between murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children so that Meredith can appease a hypothetical mob, or protecting these people from Meredith's act of genocide, I'd wager it has to do with the latter (especially since Aveline already has the City Guard successfully protecting the people of Kirkwall, as long as she's married to Donnic).

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

All the mages are doing is fighting against the templars who are attempting to execute them for an act they had nothing to do with. Helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children isn't protecting the rest of Kirkwall.

And while they are fighting, demons will be running amok as they attempt to flee Templars.

That's what happens when you thin the Veil by killing people in a concentrated area (i.e. the Brecillian Forest).

Hazegurl wrote...

Not to mention the hidden blood mages who will be casting spells etc.

You say that as though all blood mages are evil, but we already know this isn't true. Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic. The Hero of Ferelden can be a blood mage, no different than those Grey Warden mages who Duncan referenced as examples of mages who turn to blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn - the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced. Finn uses blood magic to locate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes. The phylacteries are said to be a form of blood magic. Merrill uses blood magic, and never abuses her abilities for several years. An apostate Hawke can use blood magic as well, which is no different than the mages who turn to blood magic because templars can nulify their powers otherwise.

Hazegurl wrote...

I don't see how helping mages is protecting Kirkwall. Apparently the devs don't believe that either, hence why Hawke turns his back on the city and walk away.

The mages leave Kirkwall. Why would any of them stay in the city-state when Meredith has ordered the execution of every mage in Kirkwall?

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke is asked to choose between murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children so that Meredith can appease a hypothetical mob, or protecting these people from Meredith's act of genocide, I'd wager it has to do with the latter (especially since Aveline already has the City Guard successfully protecting the people of Kirkwall, as long as she's married to Donnic).

So I have to hook two people up just to protect Kirkwall? I didn't realize Donnic being married to Aveline is enough to protect people from pride demons etc. Must be a powerful marriage. Anyway, not getting into another woe is mage debate.

side note:I don't care about blood mages. If they're summoning demons to run loose they deserve to be put down.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke is asked to choose between murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children so that Meredith can appease a hypothetical mob, or protecting these people from Meredith's act of genocide, I'd wager it has to do with the latter (especially since Aveline already has the City Guard successfully protecting the people of Kirkwall, as long as she's married to Donnic).

So I have to hook two people up just to protect Kirkwall? I didn't realize Donnic being married to Aveline is enough to protect people from pride demons etc. Must be a powerful marriage. Anyway, not getting into another woe is mage debate.

Aveline and Donnic are able to get all the City Guards on the same page, which is why there are no defections among the Guard (as long as she's married to Donnic) when she orders them to protect all the people while the templars are trying to kill the mages. Aveline and Donnic are a team.

Hazegurl wrote...

side note:I don't care about blood mages. If they're summoning demons to run loose they deserve to be put down.

You seem to think that the presence of demons can only be the result of demonology, but demons can enter the real world when the veil becomes thin, which is precisely what happens in an area where a large amount of people are being killed - such as if the respective Knight-Commander orders the exection of hundreds of people in Kirkwall because she wants to appease a hypothetical mob.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that Hawke is asked to choose between murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children so that Meredith can appease a hypothetical mob, or protecting these people from Meredith's act of genocide,

Would you stop ignoring the fact that those "innocent" mages are going to kill many kirkwallers while defending themselves?
If you think that it's completely worth it to destroy a portion of Kirkwall to protect the mages, just say so. But stop avoiding the point.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke is asked to choose between murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children so that Meredith can appease a hypothetical mob, or protecting these people from Meredith's act of genocide,

Would you stop ignoring the fact that those "innocent" mages are going to kill many kirkwallers while defending themselves?

The mages are innocent of Anders' actions, and since Meredith is condemning them to death for the actions of a single man who was never a member of the Circle of Kirkwall, they are innocent of Anders' actions. Furthermore, many mages are going to attack or kill the templars who are attempting to kill them, which is precisely what we see in the narrative.

MisterJB wrote...

If you think that it's completely worth it to destroy a portion of Kirkwall to protect the mages, just say so. But stop avoiding the point. 

I'm pretty sure any damage that ensues as a result of Meredith attempting to kill an entire population of people for an act Anders alone committed isn't going to be helped by Hawke helping her execute these people. You have the choice to help Meredith, or protect the mages from her. It's not even a pro-mage or pro-templar choice. You either support Meredith, or defy her and protect hundreds of people from her insanity.

[MisterJB]

Yes, I too think Meredith was wrong in calling the RoA but you're still avoiding the point. The point is that the RoA has been called, that mages will be fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which means explosions, demons, blood slaves. The people of Kirkwall will be caught in the middle even if the mages are not aiming for them. Helping the mages only helps to extend these fights given the fact the templars have more reinforcements to use. But by helping the templars, these fights are put down.
This is clearly a choice between the mages or Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, I too think Meredith was wrong in calling the RoA but you're still avoiding the point. The point is that the RoA has been called, that mages will be fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which means explosions, demons, blood slaves.

That's a lot of speculation you're putting forth as fact. What Meredith's demand means to me is that I have a choice in helping Meredith murder hundreds of people who I know are innocent of Anders' actions, or protecting as many men, women, and children as possible from Meredith and any templar who is following orders.

MisterJB wrote...

The people of Kirkwall will be caught in the middle even if the mages are not aiming for them. Helping the mages only helps to extend these fights given the fact the templars have more reinforcements to use.

Aveline already has the City Guard protecting the civilians.

MisterJB wrote...

But by helping the templars, these fights are put down.
This is clearly a choice between the mages or Kirkwall. 

By helping the templars, Hawke is aiding in the murder of hundreds of people who don't deserve to be killed for the actions of a single man. I would add that by killing the templars who are following Meredith's orders, the fights are certainly put down.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's a lot of speculation you're putting forth as fact. What Meredith's demand means to me is that I have a choice in helping Meredith murder hundreds of people who I know are innocent of Anders' actions, or protecting as many men, women, and children as possible from Meredith and any templar who is following orders.

There was not a single ounce of speculation in what I wrote.
It's a simple fact that survival instinct will demand the mages defend themselves. And it's also another simple fact that when fighting for one's life, panic is unavoidable. Bullet spraying is something common in today's warfare; with mages, that means they will, say, spread fire in all directions to keep the templars from coming close but fire doesn't discriminate. It's also an undeniable fact that the Veil is thin, that mages can and will resort to demon summoning and blood magic, "If the punishment for stealing and for killing are the same, a criminal is more likely to kill."
All I've said are facts.

Aveline already has the City Guard protecting the civilians.

Simple guards have neither the training nor the abilities to face mages.

By helping the templars, Hawke is aiding in the murder of hundreds of people who don't deserve to be killed for the actions of a single man.

Yes, he is. To protect the people of Kirkwall who don't deserve to die because the mages and templars can no longer stand each other.

I would add that by killing the templars who are following Meredith's orders, the fights are certainly put down.

No. The templars are more numerous given the fact that they are a military order whereas the mages are a community with elderly and children. This is visible on the Mage Ending where, despite Hawke's best efforts, he doesn't even come close to killing all the templars in the city.
Therefore, this is simple math. If we assume the strenght of the templars is roughly the same of the mages, then it becomes obvious fighting the force with the least numbers; AKA the mages; takes less time.
Less time fighting means less collateral damage which mean less civillians casualties.

You may wish to protect the mages but understand that you do so at the expense of the people of Kirkwall.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 avril 2013 - 09:34 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's a lot of speculation you're putting forth as fact. What Meredith's demand means to me is that I have a choice in helping Meredith murder hundreds of people who I know are innocent of Anders' actions, or protecting as many men, women, and children as possible from Meredith and any templar who is following orders.[/quote]

There was not a single ounce of speculation in what I wrote.
It's a simple fact that survival instinct will demand the mages defend themselves. And it's also another simple fact that when fighting for one's life, panic is unavoidable. Bullet spraying is something common in today's warfare; with mages, that means they will, say, spread fire in all directions to keep the templars from coming close but fire doesn't discriminate. It's also an undeniable fact that the Veil is thin, that mages can and will resort to demon summoning and blood magic, "If the punishment for stealing and for killing are the same, a criminal is more likely to kill."
All I've said are facts. [/quote]

Let me get this straight: you claim you've written nothing but facts, but your entire paragraph hinges on your speculation on what might ensue as a consequence of the fights between mages and templars. I don't think Hawke helping templars murder hundreds of men, women, and children is going to change the fact that mages will be fighting for survival, which means that the Champion can stop the fights (and prevent some hypothetical fires) by killing the templars who are trying to murder the mages.

Your suggestion of siding with Meredith in this scenario doesn't really factor into stopping any of the hypothetical consequences you've brought up, since some mages can still cause fires or become abominations if Hawke is helping the templars murder people for a crime they didn't commit. The difference between the two choices is that Hawke is saving lives by actually saving lives, while Hawke is helping with a mass execution by followning the order of the insane Knight-Commander.

Culling the templars who are following Meredith's orders means more men, women, and children from the Circle of Kirkwall can escape to safety.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aveline already has the City Guard protecting the civilians.[/quote]

Simple guards have neither the training nor the abilities to face mages. [/quote]

Mages who are focused on getting out of Kirkwall because the Knight-Commander ordered the execution of every mage in the city-state, which means the guards need to focus on keeping civilians off the streets while the mages flee Kirkwall, or fight templars who are attempting to kill them.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

By helping the templars, Hawke is aiding in the murder of hundreds of people who don't deserve to be killed for the actions of a single man.[/quote]

Yes, he is. To protect the people of Kirkwall who don't deserve to die because the mages and templars can no longer stand each other. [/quote]

Except that's not the scenario. What happened is that Meredith ordered the execution of hundreds of people to give in to the demands of a hypothetical mob (which Awakening already addressed is the wrong choice when the Warden-Commander faced an actual mob at Vigil's Keep), which results in the mages fleeing Kirkwall and trying to protect themselves from the templars who are attempting to kill them.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I would add that by killing the templars who are following Meredith's orders, the fights are certainly put down.
[/quote]

No. The templars are more numerous given the fact that they are a military order whereas the mages are a community with elderly and children. [/quote]

A minority in the hundreds, as referenced in the codex about the Circle of Kirkwall (which was prior to the influx of Starkhaven mages from the burned down Circle of Starkhaven).

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

This is visible on the Mage Ending where, despite Hawke's best efforts, he doesn't even come close to killing all the templars in the city. [/quote]

Hawke's focus was on protecting the mages from the templars following Meredith's edict, not eradicating every templar in Kirkwall.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Therefore, this is simple math. If we assume the strenght of the templars is roughly the same of the mages, then it becomes obvious fighting the force with the least numbers; AKA the mages; takes less time.
Less time fighting means less collateral damage which mean less civillians casualties. [/quote]

Simple math: protect men, women, and children from a lunatic who wants to execute them to give in to a mob that exists in her head, or kill them. That's the math. Kill innocent people who aren't guilty for the actions of one single man who confessed right in front of Meredith, or protect them. Your hypothetical scenarios aside, I know what choice I would rather make. Varric even notes that there were "many survivors" as a result of Hawke's actions in protecting as many mages as he could.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

You may wish to protect the mages but understand that you do so at the expense of the people of Kirkwall.[/quote]

Bull****.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Let me get this straight: you claim you've written nothing but facts, but your entire paragraph hinges on your speculation on what might ensue as a consequence of the fights between mages and templars.

It's not speculation, it's a fact. If a person faces a life threatening situation and currently has a gun, s/he will use the gun.

I don't think Hawke helping templars murder hundreds of men, women, and children is going to change the fact that mages will be fighting for survival, which means that the Champion can stop the fights (and prevent some hypothetical fires) by killing the templars who are trying to murder the mages.

No, he can't because there will always be more templars whereas the mages can all be killed since their numbers are much inferior.

Your suggestion of siding with Meredith in this scenario doesn't really factor into stopping any of the hypothetical consequences you've brought up, since some mages can still cause fires or become abominations if Hawke is helping the templars murder people for a crime they didn't commit. The difference between the two choices is that Hawke is saving lives by actually saving lives, while Hawke is helping with a mass execution by followning the order of the insane Knight-Commander.

You're participating in a mass murder as much as I am. Or do templars don't cout as living beings?
I, at least, am trying to make it as a quickly and painless as possible. Sure, mages will still cause destruction but less than they could have given the fact the deadliest fighter in Kirkwall is there to oppose them.

Culling the templars who are following Meredith's orders means more men, women, and children from the Circle of Kirkwall can escape to safety.

Meanwhile men, women and children from Kirkwall burn in their homes.

Except that's not the scenario. What happened is that Meredith ordered the execution of hundreds of people to give in to the demands of a hypothetical mob (which Awakening already addressed is the wrong choice when the Warden-Commander faced an actual mob at Vigil's Keep), which results in the mages fleeing Kirkwall and trying to protect themselves from the templars who are attempting to kill them.

Andrers just ignited all the hate and anger that was boiling. And now, the people of Kirkwall are stuck in the middle.

A minority in the hundreds, as referenced in the codex about the Circle of Kirkwall (which was prior to the influx of Starkhaven mages from the burned down Circle of Starkhaven).

A community is not constituted solely by combat ready people, there will be many mages incapable of fighting. The Templars are a military order which means each and every one of them are capable of fighting which means that they will place more combatants on the battlefield which means fighting them takes longer than fighting the mages which means more collateral damage which means more civillians dead.

Hawke's focus was on protecting the mages from the templars following Meredith's edict, not eradicating every templar in Kirkwall.

And he did so by killing every templar he came across and still didn't manage to wipe them out. Nice job being a meat shield.

Simple math: protect men, women, and children from a lunatic who wants to execute them to give in to a mob that exists in her head, or kill them. That's the math. Kill innocent people who aren't guilty for the actions of one single man who confessed right in front of Meredith, or protect them. Your hypothetical scenarios aside, I know what choice I would rather make. Varric even notes that there were "many survivors" as a result of Hawke's actions in protecting as many mages as he could.

I try to be as rational as possible and you insist on using morality arguments. Yes, many of the mages didn't deserve to die and it's sad that they did.
However, all logic points to helping the mages leading to greater casualties in the short and long run amongst the civillian non-mage population of Kirkwall who is far more numerous than the mages.

If you want to point some hole in my logic do so. Meanwhile, all you're doing is using morality arguments that amount to no more than "mass murder is wrong".
Yes, it is. But what if it saves more people than the ones that you killed? Then it is not so wrong.

Bull****.

Most people will prefer avoid an unpleasant truth. I understand.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Let me get this straight: you claim you've written nothing but facts, but your entire paragraph hinges on your speculation on what might ensue as a consequence of the fights between mages and templars. [/quote]

It's not speculation, it's a fact. If a person faces a life threatening situation and currently has a gun, s/he will use the gun. [/quote]

You're speculating on what could happen. And your gun example is speculation as well, because some people wouldn't use a gun.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think Hawke helping templars murder hundreds of men, women, and children is going to change the fact that mages will be fighting for survival, which means that the Champion can stop the fights (and prevent some hypothetical fires) by killing the templars who are trying to murder the mages. [/quote]

No, he can't because there will always be more templars whereas the mages can all be killed since their numbers are much inferior. [/quote]

The focus for pro-mage Hawke is to protect the hundreds of men, women, and children from the Gallows so they can escape, not to kill every templar in the city-state. Although we do have pro-mage Hawke killing all the templars in his path (from the streets of Kirkwall to the Gallows), including a group of templars who are trying to kill a group of Circle mages. The only exception is Knight-Captain Cullen and the templars who follow his lead in backing away from the Champion after Meredith becomes a lyrium statue.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your suggestion of siding with Meredith in this scenario doesn't really factor into stopping any of the hypothetical consequences you've brought up, since some mages can still cause fires or become abominations if Hawke is helping the templars murder people for a crime they didn't commit. The difference between the two choices is that Hawke is saving lives by actually saving lives, while Hawke is helping with a mass execution by followning the order of the insane Knight-Commander. [/quote]

You're participating in a mass murder as much as I am. Or do templars don't cout as living beings?
I, at least, am trying to make it as a quickly and painless as possible. Sure, mages will still cause destruction but less than they could have given the fact the deadliest fighter in Kirkwall is there to oppose them. [/quote]

I don't agree with murdering hundreds of people simply because Meredith wants Hawke and her templars to follow her orders. And if the templars want to follow Meredith's order in executing innocent men, women, and children, I have no problem with protecting the people of the Circle of Kirkwall by killing the templars.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Culling the templars who are following Meredith's orders means more men, women, and children from the Circle of Kirkwall can escape to safety. [/quote]

Meanwhile men, women and children from Kirkwall burn in their homes. [/quote]

You're forgetting Aveline's order to the City Guard - to protect the civilians and keep them safe.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's not the scenario. What happened is that Meredith ordered the execution of hundreds of people to give in to the demands of a hypothetical mob (which Awakening already addressed is the wrong choice when the Warden-Commander faced an actual mob at Vigil's Keep), which results in the mages fleeing Kirkwall and trying to protect themselves from the templars who are attempting to kill them.[/quote]

Andrers just ignited all the hate and anger that was boiling. And now, the people of Kirkwall are stuck in the middle. [/quote]

Again, that's not the scenario. Meredith ordered an execution, and the mages are trying to protect themselves from a mass execution.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

A minority in the hundreds, as referenced in the codex about the Circle of Kirkwall (which was prior to the influx of Starkhaven mages from the burned down Circle of Starkhaven).[/quote]

A community is not constituted solely by combat ready people, there will be many mages incapable of fighting. The Templars are a military order which means each and every one of them are capable of fighting which means that they will place more combatants on the battlefield which means fighting them takes longer than fighting the mages which means more collateral damage which means more civillians dead. [/quote]

Many mages seem to escape the clutches of the templars with Hawke protecting them, and I don't recall any reference to 'many civilians dying' as a consequence of Hawke's choice.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's focus was on protecting the mages from the templars following Meredith's edict, not eradicating every templar in Kirkwall.[/quote]

And he did so by killing every templar he came across and still didn't manage to wipe them out. Nice job being a meat shield. [/quote]

Because the focus was on protecting the mages, not wiping the templars off the face of Thedas.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Simple math: protect men, women, and children from a lunatic who wants to execute them to give in to a mob that exists in her head, or kill them. That's the math. Kill innocent people who aren't guilty for the actions of one single man who confessed right in front of Meredith, or protect them. Your hypothetical scenarios aside, I know what choice I would rather make. Varric even notes that there were "many survivors" as a result of Hawke's actions in protecting as many mages as he could.[/quote]

I try to be as rational as possible and you insist on using morality arguments. Yes, many of the mages didn't deserve to die and it's sad that they did.
However, all logic points to helping the mages leading to greater casualties in the short and long run amongst the civillian non-mage population of Kirkwall who is far more numerous than the mages. [/quote]

All your hypothetical points, you mean.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

If you want to point some hole in my logic do so. Meanwhile, all you're doing is using morality arguments that amount to no more than "mass murder is wrong".
Yes, it is. But what if it saves more people than the ones that you killed? Then it is not so wrong. [/quote]

Because your hypothetical examples could happen no matter who Hawke sides with, and your only rationalization for that point is that Hawke could - hypothetically - kill the mages in a shorter time than he could the templars, but Hawke isn't capable of wiping out the entireity of either group no matter who the Champion sides with, so your explanation doesn't persuade me. 

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Bull****. [/quote]

Most people will prefer avoid an unpleasant truth. I understand. [/quote]

Except it's not the truth, it's speculation and what if.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're speculating on what could happen. And your gun example is speculation as well, because some people wouldn't use a gun.

Survival instinct trumps morality any day of the week. Everyone would use the gun.

The focus for pro-mage Hawke is to protect the hundreds of men, women, and children from the Gallows so they can escape, not to kill every templar in the city-state. Although we do have pro-mage Hawke killing all the templars in his path (from the streets of Kirkwall to the Gallows), including a group of templars who are trying to kill a group of Circle mages. The only exception is Knight-Captain Cullen and the templars who follow his lead in backing away from the Champion after Meredith becomes a lyrium statue.

Hawke did not kill all the templars because he couldn't, not because he didn't want to do so.

I don't agree with murdering hundreds of people simply because Meredith wants Hawke and her templars to follow her orders. And if the templars want to follow Meredith's order in executing innocent men, women, and children, I have no problem with protecting the people of the Circle of Kirkwall by killing the templars.

And I don't agree with a city full of people being caught in the middle of a war and thus I have no problem with protecting the people of Kirkwall by killing the mages.

You're forgetting Aveline's order to the City Guard - to protect the civilians and keep them safe.

They are not prepared to fight mages. They lack the training and lyrium.

Again, that's not the scenario. Meredith ordered an execution, and the mages are trying to protect themselves from a mass execution.

In the surface, sure. But it's obvious this was a long time coming, both sides unleashed all their frustation and hate on each other.

Many mages seem to escape the clutches of the templars with Hawke protecting them,

Because, as we all know, mages are the only people that matter.

and I don't recall any reference to 'many civilians dying' as a consequence of Hawke's choice.

Kirkwall is on fire. There are demons in the streets, do you really need to be told that civillians were being killed?

All your hypothetical points, you mean.

All of my hypothetical points are firmly based in logic and reason.

Because your hypothetical examples could happen no matter who Hawke sides with, and your only rationalization for that point is that Hawke could - hypothetically - kill the mages in a shorter time than he could the templars, but Hawke isn't capable of wiping out the entireity of either group no matter who the Champion sides with, so your explanation doesn't persuade me. 

The differences between each ending are as clear as day. In the Mage Ending, Hawke is forced to flee Kirkwall because the number of surviving templars is enough to kill him if he attempted to stay. Meanwhile, in the Templar Ending, there is not a mage in sight and not only can Hawke stay, he can become Viscount. Thus, while a mage or two might have escaped, the great majority were killed.
You say that I use only hypothesis which is true. But if you wish to say that they are not likely to occur, then you must have well thought out reasons which I am not seeing.

Actually, only scenario 2 is hypothetical. The first one is an accurate analysis of the endgame.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 avril 2013 - 11:56 .

[TEWR]

Bullet spraying is something common in today's warfare; with mages, that means they will, say, spread fire in all directions to keep the templars from coming close but fire doesn't discriminate.

Magical fire does. Mages can directly control the magical energies they create. You see this in the Magi Origin. They can direct where it goes and who it strikes.

Granted, the problem is that if you let your fear and anxiety get a better hold of you then you over it, it will get out of control. You can be afraid, but don't let your fear control you otherwise the magic will go out of control.