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[Ryzaki]

Oh that fanart. So pretty X_X *is dead*

Damn it Haze! Share links!

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh that fanart. So pretty X_X *is dead*

Damn it Haze! Share links!

Will do!  I wish it was my Hawke with Fenris but I take whatever I can get of MHawke x Fenris.

http://fc06.devianta...rin-d3hx8ta.jpg

Rassler wrote...
The Irony here is in that Video that male
Hawke have romanced Anders. I immediately recognized it from the
conversation between them.

He was obviously having  torrid affair with Fenris behind Anders back, Who can blame him.

[Lulupab]

The only reason I romanced Fenris in some of my playthorughs is because he is sexy as hell with those tattoos otherwise he is bitter and an ass, it was hot and all but not very romantic or emotional :| Especially gay romance was much hotter with Fenris but It was not very good in a straight romance. Fenris is like a sex toy, we all know it

You are a tranquil if you think this is not romantic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Rassler, 21 mai 2013 - 10:56 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

Anders point is proven. Anders, one renegade mage who has nothing to do with circle kills the grand cleric, ALL mages in the circle get punished for it. A Templar goes rouge aka renegade and makes mages tranquil for fun and even kills them, ONLY that Templar gets punished for it not even the people who helped him do it. This is the definition of injustice.
You might not see the picture here. Notice the true happiness on Anders face when he dies. He is a martyr who achieved what he wanted he is a hero to all mages in Thedas. Meredith on the other hand turned on her own people and died in extreme amounts of agony and pain. She utterly failed in everything she was suppose to do and betrayed every single Templar code and she is definitely no hero and was even stripped of her title by Cullen. She is a heretic to the Templar Order.

The thing is, no one but Anders ever cared, in the sligthest, about his notions of what is "just". Neither the Templars nor their supporters ever claimed the Circle is just, we believe it is necessary. And by commiting an act of terrorism; which is itself an injustice; what Anders actually proved was the Templar's point. Mages are dangerous.
He does not become a hero or a martyr. In the ending, it is Hawke name that becomes a rallying cry for a reason or the other, not Anders'. In Asunder, he is mentioned once and that is to call him a mad man. Likewise, it was the actions of the mages and templars in Asunder that lead to the current world conflict, not Anders' actions.
Anders is nothing but a dangerous, uncompromising, unresonable, hypocritical zealot who killed innocent people to justify his ideals,

Hawke and Anders escape and live happily and eventually eradicating Templar Order.

Hawke and Anders can escape and live together but eradicating the Templar Order is pure fanfiction.

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

The only reason I romanced Fenris in some of my playthorughs is because he is sexy as hell with those tattoos otherwise he is bitter and an ass, it was hot and all but not very romantic or emotional :| Especially gay romance was much hotter with Fenris but It was not very good in a straight romance. Fenris is like a sex toy, we all know it

You are a tranquil if you think this is not romantic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Don't care about FHawke
Don't care about Anders

I  typically role play almost sleeping with him(Anders) until he proceeds to trash talk Fenris and my Hawke can tell him to leave his place. Although once I did have my Hawke sleep with him then proceeded to tell him he wasn't any good in bed. Before reloading so I don't lose the Fenris romance. Anders just comes across as too whiny, too bitter, and pretty much a user. I find it ridiculous that he accuses Fenris of using my Hawke while on the very misson where he is lying and using Hawke for his own gains(to make his bomb).

I'm sure there is a word for people who accuse others of doing something they themselves are guilty of.

Although you are right that the Fenris romance is much better with MHawke.

[lil yonce]

 Replaying DA2 and received Ella's letter from the Circle after Dissent. It reads:

Messere Hawke,
In case you don't remember me, we met in the Gallows a few years ago. You saved my life. Twice, in fact. Once from Ser Alrik, and once from... someone else. It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, and no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now. So many dark whispers in the Circle. Terrible days are coming for all of us. I pray the Maker keeps you safe.
Sincerely,
Ella

Dark whispers in the Circle? The Templars don't want to fight? This from a mage? The Circle certainly deserves a share of the blame for what transpired in Kirkwall.

And something interesting to note-- Cullen was in favor of expanding the Rite of Tranquility if you ask him about Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution. He says Alrik's plan was discussed it was discussed within the Order and rejected for its extremity, but he adds when questioned for his seeming approval of the idea that limiting the rite to apprentices was perhaps too restricting on Templars-- that full mages who are under substantial suspicion of demonic consort should also be made tranquil.

Replayed Best Served Cold last night and I noticed for the first time Grace became a Pride Abomination after I killed her original form. Her all-consuming rage makes perfect sense to me. Locked up in a Circle she didn't wish to be in and considered worse than the previous Circle she had been, she stewed in hatred. Feeling trapped under Templar scrutinty, she used the knowledge and magic Decimus taught her to consort a demon. Too much hatred, too much pride and it possesed her during the quest.

She definitely should have been #1 on Cullen's list.

Talking to Meredith after Best Served Cold, she is convinced Orsino is a blood mage and somehow involved in plots to overthrow her. Everyone thinks she's crazy-- Sebastian even labels it her "mad theories" after she condemns Elthina from blocking action against the First Enchanter after the incident in the Hightown Square at the begining of Act 3 where Orsino publically speaks out against her to the Nobility. (I think he was upset by Meredith dissing Elthina more than anything.) But Meredith responds with something along the lines of, "Many are labeled crazy right up until the point they are proven correct." I found that interesting because she was right about him being a blood mage in the end.

Talking to Eltina in the Chantry after Faith and she says something along the lines of, "I will not stand by while Kirkwall bears the weight of war between the Templars and maleficarum," in a line of auto-dialogue. I interpret that as her primary concern is for the city and that she believes the Circle is corrupt or at least there are strong corrupt elements within it but doesn't want an Exhalted March called on the city. She also says Orino is a reasonable man and that surely a compromise is possible.

During Showdown at the beginning of Act 3 reminding Orisno that he fights the Knight-Commander at every turn and that it hasn't helped the Circle at all, he says he's done cooperating with Meredith and later states during The Last Straw that the suspected Circle corruption is just the latest of her accusations and nothing more.

Lyin'. Or at least severely downplaying the situation.

When returing Emile de Launcet to the Circle Meredith says she would have had him executed expect his father made an impassioned plea on his behalf and as a result she is further considering the matter. She asks for Hawke's opinion before proceeding and when Hawke explains Emile lied about being a blood mage to make himself more attractive, Meredith chuckles and says she will accept him back without issue.

And I probably killed a hundred blood mages in Hightown at night for the quest Red Run Streets.

Craziest thing is, my Hawke is a blood mage and no one realizes it or seems to care. Anders went off on Merril several times during her quests but never said a word to me as I spammed Hemmorage on the battlefield. LOL. I would like to see a damage bounus given to all spells when you take the blood mage spec. Its supposed to make the caster's magic more powerful lore-wise I thought and I love to stack damage. At 10-15% increase thorough upgrades would be nice for DA3.

My Hawke is a mage and I put Carver in the Grey Warden on the last run so on this one, he became a Templar. Sarcastic Hawke's line about the templar and mage running across the gallows from opposite ends to embrace during Merril's quest was great. Sarcastic Hawke FTW. And being a mage who sides with the Templars is an interesting dynamic. Shutting down Anders hard with Fenris and Sebastian in the party when he barks at Meredith after Best Served Cold was a golden moment in this playthrough.

Worst thing about this playthrough is I've had Anders in my party almost the entire game. He's such a good mage. But I couldn't max his rivarly bar because he likes a lot of the actions I take. Same problem with Isabela on this run though she wasn't in the party. Her friendship bar was up due to fliriting but I denied her the Qunari relic at the end of Act 2 and during No Rest For The Wicked I denied her the ship. Her bar is stuck now with no hope of getting it to full rivarly or frienship. I don't know how the romance will end now without the last conversation. I gave her the Rivani Talisman but nothing really came of it and I won't get another quest for her. And I missed Aveline's shield gift during Demands of the Qun after killing Ser Varnell. Now her bar is 5-10 points away from max friendship but there is no way for me to get it or Questioning Beliefs with so few quests left at the end of Act 3. Too bad. I also had to take the friendship path with Sebastian when I wanted to rival him because he too liked too many of the things I did when he was in the party.

I kinda screwed up with the companions this round. I might have to use a guide next time to get it right. I don't want to have to roleplay my Hawke differently, however.

I think this system needs work. 
And an Empty Chairs at Empty Tables moment for DA3 at some point during the Mage-Templar war. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 mai 2013 - 12:42 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

 Replaying DA2 and received Ella's letter from the Circle after Dissent. It reads:

Dark whispers in the Circle? The Templars don't want to fight? This from a mage? The Circle certainly deserves a share of the blame for what transpired in Kirkwall.

Oh yeah I remember that letter!  It showed that not all Templars were for Alrik's plan, he wasn't missed which meant that none of the Templars even liked him. Yet that didn't seem to stop some of the circle mages from plotting. It also proves that the circle mages were plotting long before Anders ever took action by blowing up the Chantry in act 3.  This really made me think about Anders and his connection to the mage underground a little more closesly.

Codex entry on the mage underground:
"As of late, the movement has grown bolder, sending raiding parties into the Gallows in an attempt to break out mages who lack the skills or willpower to escape on their own. This is a grave concern. My recommendation is to
fight back, both physically and in turning the minds and hearts of their supporters against them."—Knight-Captain Cullen

Triva notes: The mage underground is mentioned twice in Act 1: directly by a templar in the Docks standing across the Qunari Compound in the day-time and indirectly by Emeric when Hawke first meets him.


We all know of Anders direct involvement int he Mage Underground to the point of having secret access to the Gallows himself. I wonder just how many mages really knew of Ander's plan or at least knew something big was going to happen long before Meredith even took over.

... limiting the rite to apprentices was perhaps to restricting on Templars-- that full mages who are under substantial suspicion of demonic consort should also be made tranquil.

I agree with him and it makes a lot of sense considering the quote from I posted above. The mage underground was growing bolder, the mages were already plotting inside the circle, and it didn't help allowing mages who had contact with blood mages (Grace's connection to Decimus) inside the circle. Oh yeah Grace would have been number one on Cullen's list and rightfully so.

Talking to Meredith after Best Served Cold, she is convinced Orsino is a blood mage and somehow involved in plots to overthrow her.

 But Meredith responds with something along the lines of, "Many are labeled crazy right up until the point they are poven corrrect." I found that interesting because she was right about him being a blood mage in the end.

Very true. Anyone can call Meredith crazy or mad if they like, it still doesn't negate the fact that Orsino was a blood mage and she was correct in suspecting him. Also, look out for those blood mage Enchanters if you go Pro-Templar at the end. There are actually quite a few. these are the mages who are supposed to be overseeing, mentoring, and teaching the other mages?? And people wonder why Meredith was sending off for permission for the RoA.

What she's dealing with so far is the Mage Underground (which is filled with blood mages)raiding the Gallows with secret passages in and out of it, Manifestos spreaded all over Kirkwall inciting rage against the Templars, Blood mages running wild, mages who are having far too many connections to blood mages being put into the circle, mages corrupting her Templars with demons, Mages using smear campaign tatics to get good Templars fired(you find this out in a pro mage run), a possible Exalted March on Kirkwall if things aren't fixed soon, and mages within the circle plotting against the templars. 

If I was Meredith I would either be packing my bags for a nice long beach vacation and just let the March come to Kirkwall or try to find a solution in the RoA.

he says he's done cooperating with Meredith and that the suspected Circle corruption is just the latest of her accusations and nothing more.

Lyin'. Or at least severely downplaying the situation.

He is totally lying because he calls Hawke to him in secret to root out the corruption between a group of inner circle rebel mages and Templars. So while Orsino was calling Meredith crazy in public he was actually agreeing with her but wanted the circle to look good as he claims he was scared of what Meredith would do with the knowledge. But I think he was really afriad of losing public support for the mages by agreeing with her. He did pretty much make Meredith's job harder and backed her into a corner. He claims that he hoped Meredith was lying to make the mages look bad...but considering the fact that he is a lying blood mage hiding in the circle while aiding a serial killer for knowledge about his research, I take his word with a grain of salt.

Craziest thing is, my Hawke is a blood mage and no one realizes it or seems to care.

The devs totally dropped the ball on this one. How on earth can they have a blood mage/Templar centric storyline yet never think or bother to include the Templar or Blood Mage skills Hawke has into the freaking story. I was so disappointed when I made my Hawke a blood mage and everyone, even Fenris was calling him a good mage while my hawke was punishing other blood mages for doing what he himself was doing. lol! I had a warrior Hawke once with Templar skills yet zero mention of this from anyone.

Worst thing about this playthrough is I've had Anders in my party almost the entire game. He's such a good mage. But I couldn't max his rivarly bar because he likes a lot of the actions I take.

 I think this system needs work. 

Oh yeah they need to work on the rival/friend thing for the next game. I have to metagame to get Anders to full rivalry I also end up doing too many things he likes if I role play the way I want but I like having him and Fenris in my party. Actually I can play this entire game with just Varric, Fenris, and Anders if I could. Although sometimes  I take up the spirit healer trait so I can leave Anders behind on some missions.

Oh wow, that song would match the mage templar war perfectly! Now I just thought of Dragon age as a musical, lol!!

Modifié par Hazegurl, 21 mai 2013 - 11:16 .

[Lulupab]

Also Orsino was not a blood mage. I forgot his name but the killer of Hawke's mother leaves behind some secrets of magic and necromancy . They are taken to the circle. It involves blood magic as well. In desperate moment Orsino uses what he has learned from those papers and casts that blood magic he was not a blood mage before that. I thought it was obvious from the way he connected the corpses just like Hawke's mother's killer.

And you shoudln't expect especial treatmeant when you become a templar as warrior Hawke. You are not a templar you just learned Templar skills. The talent tree itself mentions this.

Modifié par Rassler, 21 mai 2013 - 11:52 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Codex entry on the mage underground:
"As of late, the movement has grown bolder, sending raiding parties into the Gallows in an attempt to break out mages who lack the skills or willpower to escape on their own. This is a grave concern. My recommendation is to
fight back, both physically and in turning the minds and hearts of their supporters against them."—Knight-Captain Cullen

I didn't  know about this Codex Entry. They were becoming bold. 

Triva notes: The mage underground is mentioned twice in Act 1: directly by a templar in the Docks standing across the Qunari Compound in the day-time and indirectly by Emeric when Hawke first meets him.


We all know of Anders direct involvement int he Mage Underground to the point of having secret access to the Gallows himself. I wonder just how many mages really knew of Ander's plan or at least knew something big was going to happen long before Meredith even took over.

That is a good question. I hadn't thought about that. He never told my Hawke a thing about the Mage Underground because I turned in the Starkhaven apostates and also because I never accessed his Questioning Beliefs quests.

I agree with him and it makes a lot of sense considering the quote from I posted above. The mage underground was growing bolder, the mages were already plotting inside the circle, and it didn't help allowing mages who had contact with blood mages (Grace's connection to Decimus) inside the circle. Oh yeah Grace would have been number one on Cullen's list and rightfully so.

I agree to. Cullen said you can't protect those who don't want to be protected from themselves-- there is only so much the Templars can do and the safety of the Circle and Order should come before a suspect individual.

Also, look out for those blood mage Enchanters if you go Pro-Templar at the end. There are actually quite a few. these are the mages who are supposed to be overseeing, mentoring, and teaching the other mages?? And people wonder why Meredith was sending off for permission for the RoA.

Good point. I noticed a few Enchanters during Best Served Cold but I didn't give it much thought during fights besides, "Winters Grasp-- good. Now Varric use use Archer's Lance on that brittle target, and Anders cast haste so we can finish this mage off quickly!" LOL. It sounds like possibly another Ferelden situation-- Uldred using his Enchanter status to teach blood magic to apprentices.

What she's dealing with so far is the Mage Underground (which is filled with blood mages)raiding the Gallows with secret passages in and out of it, Manifestos spreaded all over Kirkwall inciting rage against the Templars, Blood mages running wild, mages who are having far too many connections to blood mages being put into the circle, mages corrupting her Templars with demons, Mages using smear campaign tatics to get good Templars fired(you find this out in a pro mage run), a possible Exalted March on Kirkwall if things aren't fixed soon, and mages within the circle plotting against the templars. If I was Meredith I would either be packing my bags for a nice long beach vacation and just let the March come to Kirkwall or try to find a solution in the RoA.

He is totally lying because he calls Hawke to him in secret to root out the corruption between a group of inner circle rebel mages and Templars. So while Orsino was calling Meredith crazy in public he was actually agreeing with her but wanted the circle to look good as he claims he was scared of what Meredith would do with the knowledge. But I think he was really afriad of losing public support for the mages by agreeing with her. He did pretty much make Meredith's job harder and backed her into a corner. He claims that he hoped Meredith was lying to make the mages look bad...but considering the fact that he is a lying blood mage hiding in the circle while aiding a serial killer for knowledge about his research, I take his word with a grain of salt.

Could not have stated it any better.

The devs totally dropped the ball on this one. How on earth can they have a blood mage/Templar centric storyline yet never think or bother to include the Templar or Blood Mage skills Hawke has into the freaking story. I was so disappointed when I made my Hawke a blood mage and everyone, even Fenris was calling him a good mage while my hawke was punishing other blood mages for doing what he himself was doing. lol! I had a warrior Hawke once with Templar skills yet zero mention of this from anyone.

I want it to matter too that I'm a blood mage. I want to use it in quests to affect the story-- mind control and summoning demons or nullifying Templar attacks. Damage boosts etc. I want to feel like I'm living on the edge. I don't want to have only two spells that do damage from the blood magic tree-- and one is only somewhat reliable. And it is hilarious how Hawke can condemn blood magic and be a blood mage him/herself. I felt like I was keeping up apperances while hiding a dirty little secret from everyone-- without even trying.

Oh yeah they need to work on the rival/friend thing for the next game. I have to metagame to get Anders to full rivalry I also end up doing too many things he likes if I role play the way I want but I like having him and Fenris in my party. Actually I can play this entire game with just Varric, Fenris, and Anders if I could. Although sometimes  I take up the spirit healer trait so I can leave Anders behind on some missions.

I had that exact party for a long time. From time to time I would replace Varric with Sebastian just for fun. I used Merrill a lot early on too. But Anders I could never replace once in the party. He was just too useful. Enemy-- Clustered-- Paralyze-- Walking Bomb--  

I refused the Arishok's duel at the end of Act 2 and went for the all out brawl. It was way more fun that fighting him solo in a fifteen minute battle of attrition. Really, that fight is so boring. He drinks 3-4 health potions and I have to keep grinding away slowly at his health and kite him. Fight in the throne room-- way more fun. Walking bombs going off destroyed the two Saarebas. Almost made me like Anders. I'm never dueling the Arishok again. And you get more experince from the brawl than from the duel. #CaseClosed.

Oh wow, that song would match the mage templar war perfectly! Now I just thought of Dragon age as a musical, lol!!

Favorite verses:

Here they talked of revolution.
Here it was they lit the flame.
Here they sang about `tomorrow'
And tomorrow never came.

Oh my friends, my friends, don't ask me
What your sacrifice was for
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more

When Fiona says many of us will die but surely some will live at the end of Asunder-- I thought about that song. (I just watched Les Miz on Blu-ray-- and loved it-- the weekend I finished Asunder.) I don't see the Magi revolution going much better than the revolution in Les Miz.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 mai 2013 - 06:01 .

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

Also Orsino was not a blood mage. I forgot his name but the killer of Hawke's mother leaves behind some secrets of magic and necromancy . They are taken to the circle. It involves blood magic as well.

And you shoudln't expect especial treatmeant when you become a templar as warrior Hawke. You are not a templar you just learned Templar skills. The talent tree itself mentions this.

Orsino was providing those books to Quentin for that blood magic ritual.  In his letter he tells Quentin the research was in the usual hiding spot and he looked forward to the breakthroughs Quentine discovered. Quentin perfected the research and more than likely passed his knowledge to Orsino. Orsino was certainly a blood mage.

I had already stated that it was Templar skills, I never said Hawke was a Templar based on having the skills..However, in a game where the Templar/Mage thing was a big deal it would have been nice to have acknowledge of these two skill sets. Or even special quests. It's wouldn't have hurt to have someone like Anders ask "Why are you learning Templar abilities?" or something.

Youth4Ever wrote...

I didn't  know about this Codex Entry. They were becoming bold.

To get the codex I think you have to investigate the "run ins" Anders refers to while he's giving the Dissent quest.

Oh yeah, the Templars were dealing with mages with a huge set of you know what to send in raid parties

That
is a good question. I hadn't thought about that. He never told my Hawke
a thing about the Mage Underground because I turned in the Starkhaven
apostates and also because I never accessed his Questioning Beliefs quests.

Yeah,I think you have to be in good standing with him I believe, I can't remember as I haven't played in a while. But I remember him mentioning how he was a part of the mage underground and the passage used to smuggle lyrium was also used by the mage underground to access the Gallows.

Good point. I noticed a few Enchanters during Best Served Cold but I didn't give it much thought during fights besides, "Winters
Grasp-- good. Now Varric use use Archer's Lance on that brittle target,
and Anders cast haste so we can finish this mage off quickly!" LOL.
It sounds like possibly another Ferelden situation-- Uldred using his
Enchanter status to teach blood magic to apprentices.

I didn't even notice it until my last playthrough of the game, I so wish I was playing on a pc so I could have taken a picture of them. I think they even had the title "Blood mage Enchanter" lol!

As for blood mage Hawke, I also felt like I was keeping up appearances. I sort of role played it as Hawke not wanting any competition so he got rid of the other blood mages then went home to his mansion and laughed as he subtly gained influence within the city of Kirkwall. 

I had that exact party for a long time. From time to time I would
replace Varric with Sebastian just for fun. I used Merrill a lot early
on too. But Anders I could never replace once in the party. He was just
too useful. Enemy-- Clustered-- Paralyze-- Walking Bomb--  

I
refused the Arishok's duel at the end of Act 2 and went for the all out
brawl. It was way more fun that fighting him solo in a fifteen minute
battle of attrition. Really, that fight is so boring. He drinks 3-4
health potions and I have to keep grinding away slowly at his health and
kite him. Fight in the throne room-- way more fun. Walking bombs going
off destroyed the two Saarebas. Almost made me like Anders. I'm never
dueling the Arishok again. And you get more experince from the brawl
than from the duel. #CaseClosed.

I also switched Varric for others sometimes, like Isabella and Sebby rocks with a good bow. One time my entire group died but Sebastian(Pathetic wipe out:pinched:).  I fought off everyone with Seb alone. It was epic!

That Arishok, fighting him one on one as a mage is a pain. I thought he was easy on my first playthrough cause I was a warrior and my warrior Hawke was messing him up big time. He barely got a hit in. My Rouge died a few times but overall it was a decent fight, my mage hawke? Noting like the trailer that's for sure. lol! I eventually began turning down the one on one fights too. I love the "Everybody get him!" approach. It also spits in the face of his Qun rules.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

Also Orsino was not a blood mage. I forgot his name but the killer of Hawke's mother leaves behind some secrets of magic and necromancy . They are taken to the circle. It involves blood magic as well. In desperate moment Orsino uses what he has learned from those papers and casts that blood magic he was not a blood mage before that. I thought it was obvious from the way he connected the corpses just like Hawke's mother's killer.

Yeah, Orsino just cast a previously unseen, never cast before spell on the spot, from memory despite having never used blood magic before. Likewise, the mages in the Circle learned in one night how to use blood magic, summon demons without being possessed, etc and without a blood mage tutor.
I call bullsh*t. Clearly, Orsino had been a blood mage for years and he had been teaching others inside the Circle.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 mai 2013 - 12:48 .

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Also Orsino was not a blood mage. I forgot his name but the killer of Hawke's mother leaves behind some secrets of magic and necromancy . They are taken to the circle. It involves blood magic as well. In desperate moment Orsino uses what he has learned from those papers and casts that blood magic he was not a blood mage before that. I thought it was obvious from the way he connected the corpses just like Hawke's mother's killer.

Yeah, Orsino just cast a previously unseen, never cast before spell on the spot, from memory despite having never used blood magic before. Likewise, the mages in the Circle learned in one night how to use blood magic, summon demons without being possessed, etc and without a blood mage tutor.
I call bullsh*t. Clearly, Orsino had been a blood mage for years and he had been teaching others inside the Circle.

The bullsh*t belongs to bioware not the mages. Just as an instant Hawke can become a blood mage other mages can become too. Bioware has shown us mages can turn to blood magic in desperate moments in blink of an eye. Thrask's daughter turned to abomination and cast blood magic in mere 3 seconds.

Its a possibility Orsino was a blood mage but there is no real proof whatsoever and the writers haven't said anything. Even so being a blood mage doesn't mean being evil an instant. Grey wardens have won battles against darkswpan thanks to blood magic.

There is also a rumor that more  than normal use of lyrium makes templars go crazy. As cassandra says the templar order has gone roge from the chantry and started hunting mages on their own. Blood mage or otherwise.

[WhiteKnyght]

If you play The Exiled Prince, you get to see firsthand that Mages aren't the only ones capable of doing blood magic.

Lady Harriman wasn't a mage(that was explicitly stated as the reason why she believed she wouldn't be manipulated by the demon), yet when you fight her, she uses blood magic to attack you.

So what's the point of imprisoning and persecuting mages to prevent them from using Blood Magic if ANYBODY can learn how to do it?

By that logic, they'd have to imprison and monitor normal people as well.

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Also Orsino was not a blood mage. I forgot his name but the killer of Hawke's mother leaves behind some secrets of magic and necromancy . They are taken to the circle. It involves blood magic as well. In desperate moment Orsino uses what he has learned from those papers and casts that blood magic he was not a blood mage before that. I thought it was obvious from the way he connected the corpses just like Hawke's mother's killer.

Yeah, Orsino just cast a previously unseen, never cast before spell on the spot, from memory despite having never used blood magic before. Likewise, the mages in the Circle learned in one night how to use blood magic, summon demons without being possessed, etc and without a blood mage tutor.
I call bullsh*t. Clearly, Orsino had been a blood mage for years and he had been teaching others inside the Circle.

Orsino's inexperience with that is probably it turned out so disgusting looking. All he did was reanimate a lot of dead flesh and lop it together. Not exactly a refined technique.

He has no reason to lie after he start using it in front of Hawke and Meredith, especially when he openly admits that he aided and abetted Quentin.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 22 mai 2013 - 05:32 .

[MisterJB]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

If you play The Exiled Prince, you get to see firsthand that Mages aren't the only ones capable of doing blood magic.

Lady Harriman wasn't a mage(that was explicitly stated as the reason why she believed she wouldn't be manipulated by the demon), yet when you fight her, she uses blood magic to attack you.

So what's the point of imprisoning and persecuting mages to prevent them from using Blood Magic if ANYBODY can learn how to do it?

By that logic, they'd have to imprison and monitor normal people as well.

We don't imprision mages just to prevent the use of blood magic. We do so because their increased potential for destruction justifies a greater restriction of their freedoms. Everyone has their freedoms restricted in some manner due to the potential they might harm others, and not because they have given evidence of willingness to harm others. That is the whole point of the legal system, limit freedoms so people can coexist in a orderly society.
Therefore, is it not logical to wish for those who have a greater potential to cause harm to have their freedoms more restricted to reflect it?

Orsino's inexperience with that is probably it turned out so disgusting looking. All he did was reanimate a lot of dead flesh and lop it together. Not exactly a refined technique.

He wasn't attempting to achieve a refined goal. Just to kill as many people as he could.
Someting like Jowan does at the end of the Magi Origin looks like an actual amateurish use of blood magic. He is basically just throwing his blood at people; altough I can't imagine how that managed to knock out people, but whatever.
Melding completely indepedent organisms into a stable new form while using your own soul to power it really does not sound like an apprentice level spell, does it?

He has no reason to lie after he start using it in front of Hawke and Meredith, especially when he openly admits that he aided and abetted Quentin.

He could just be trying to place the guilt on Meredith. "YOU MADE ME DO THIS!" said every wife beater ever.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 mai 2013 - 06:01 .

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

The bullsh*t belongs to bioware not the mages. Just as an instant Hawke can become a blood mage other mages can become too. Bioware has shown us mages can turn to blood magic in desperate moments in blink of an eye. Thrask's daughter turned to abomination and cast blood magic in mere 3 seconds.

Its a possibility Orsino was a blood mage but there is no real proof whatsoever and the writers haven't said anything. Even so being a blood mage doesn't mean being evil an instant. Grey wardens have won battles against darkswpan thanks to blood magic.

The mages belong to Bioware so it is their bs too. Hawke can become a blood mage through gameplay. It isn't even acknowledged in the story. Actually, I prefer Origins much better when the warden had to actually make a pact with a demon to get it. But oh well.

Orsino is not casting that type of spell out of nowhere, he had access to Quentin's research and provided him with the books needed. He may not have been making abominations in the circle, but he practiced enough to know that he needed live sacrifices and how to cast it quite smoothly on the spot. It is obviously an advanced spell. Also, Orsino admits that he knew the spell but was holding on to it. How can you hold onto to a blood magic spell you don't know how to cast?

@The Grey Nayr, Lady Harimann was in fact, a mage.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

"She was a potent mage, and took control of the Harimann family following her Husband's death."

Her specalization is listed as "Blood Mage"

[WhiteKnyght]

Hazegurl wrote...

@The Grey Nayr, Lady Harimann was in fact, a mage.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

"She was a potent mage, and took control of the Harimann family following her Husband's death."

Her specalization is listed as "Blood Mage"

Maybe after she met the demon. It was what allowed her to take over the family.

But if you talking to her children after she's dead, they state that she believed she couldn't be fooled by the demon because she wasn't a mage.

Also if you notice, there aren't any citations on that page. Not even a link to a codex entry. While the game itself, aside from the codes that make her model perform as a mage, state that she was not one. I'm more inclined to believe the game than a wiki page with no source that can be edited by anybody.

Also if you look up an old interview with David Gaider at PAX, he states that the Templars use blood magic as well(when they use the phylacteries of blood to track the mages). But they're not mages either.

So it's confirmed right from THE SOURCE, that non mages are using blood magic. It's even mentioned in Asunder and that they justify it by "a little hypocrisy for the greater good"

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 22 mai 2013 - 08:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

There is no "right" thing.

There is only crappy and more crappy.

[Lulupab]

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The bullsh*t belongs to bioware not the mages. Just as an instant Hawke can become a blood mage other mages can become too. Bioware has shown us mages can turn to blood magic in desperate moments in blink of an eye. Thrask's daughter turned to abomination and cast blood magic in mere 3 seconds.

Its a possibility Orsino was a blood mage but there is no real proof whatsoever and the writers haven't said anything. Even so being a blood mage doesn't mean being evil an instant. Grey wardens have won battles against darkswpan thanks to blood magic.

The mages belong to Bioware so it is their bs too. Hawke can become a blood mage through gameplay. It isn't even acknowledged in the story. Actually, I prefer Origins much better when the warden had to actually make a pact with a demon to get it. But oh well.

Orsino is not casting that type of spell out of nowhere, he had access to Quentin's research and provided him with the books needed. He may not have been making abominations in the circle, but he practiced enough to know that he needed live sacrifices and how to cast it quite smoothly on the spot. It is obviously an advanced spell. Also, Orsino admits that he knew the spell but was holding on to it. How can you hold onto to a blood magic spell you don't know how to cast?

@The Grey Nayr, Lady Harimann was in fact, a mage.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

"She was a potent mage, and took control of the Harimann family following her Husband's death."

Her specalization is listed as "Blood Mage"

I think its practical for first enchanters to get familiar with blood magic. Trained police taste many drugs and when they find some in crime scenes they taste a very little amount and recognize what it is. They are no addict but they are familiar with it. This is very similar to it. They need to know what blood magic is and help templars defeat them. How can we fight blood magic without knowing what it is?

This is very likely the case with Orsino.

[lil yonce]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Maybe after she met the demon. It was what allowed her to take over the family. But if you talking to her children after she's dead, they state that she believed she couldn't be fooled by the demon because she wasn't a mage. Also if you notice, there aren't any citations on that page. Not even a link to a codex entry. While the game itself, aside from the codes that make her model perform as a mage, state that she was not one. I'm more inclined to believe the game than a wiki page with no source that can be edited by anybody.

It appears to me she hide her talents from her family. Unsurprising considering the scandal magical talent can impose on a noble family. The downfall of the Amells is heavily blamed on magic regardless whether or not magic was truly the cause of woe for example. And I would think such an important detail as receiving magical talent after demonic contact would be explained or elaborated in the DLC or elsewhere in the DA universe.

Also if you look up an old interview with David Gaider at PAX, he states that the Templars use blood magic as well(when they use the phylacteries of blood to track the mages). But they're not mages either.

Lady Harriman wields a staff and casts spells exactly like a mage when encountered.

So it's confirmed right from THE SOURCE, that non mages are using blood magic. It's even mentioned in Asunder and that they justify it by "a little hypocrisy for the greater good"

But that does not indicate Lady Harriman was not a mage to begin. And Ser Evangeline makes that comment about phylacterices and if you knew our opinion of Evangeline, you would understand her opinion on most subjects means little to us.

Personally, I would like to see the Templars make greater use of their abilities. Grey Wardens use the power of their blood primarily only to resist the blight disease and sense darkspawn, and the Templars similarly use the power of lyrium to resist and nullify magic, but untapped power rests in Grey Warden blood and I think perhaps lyrium infused Templar blood could also be powerful if harnessed. Maybe from this power source Templars could combat blood magic with a varient of blood magic instead of being virtually powerless against it as they are now. I'm not certain how open they'd be to the concept but if the alternative is death at the hands of a blood mage it may become an additonal training option. And if it only works on mages as their current powers are only supposed to work on mages it might gain traction as an idea to experiment within the Order. If they can use a mild form of blood magic to their advantage they may in time allow mages to perform blood magic for research etc under supervision.

Orsino's inexperience with that is probably it turned out so disgusting looking. All he did was reanimate a lot of dead flesh and lop it together. Not exactly a refined technique.

His harvester looks exactly like the harvester from golems of amgarrak so I would assume that's just how it a multiple body flesh golem turns out.

Rassler wrote...

I think its practical for first enchanters to get familiar with blood magic. Trained police taste many drugs and when they find some in crime scenes they taste a very little amount and recognize what it is. They are no addict but they are familiar with it. This is very similar to it. They need to know what blood magic is and help templars defeat them. How can we fight blood magic without knowing what it is? This is very likely the case with Orsino.

I believe Irving has blood mage tomes in his office for that exact purpose and Greagoir is aware, but the difference between Irving and Orsino is the former did not possess a great knowledge of blood magic-- he relied on Uldred to help identify markers to look for in apprentices-- and was working with his Knight-Commander to root out blood mages in the Circle, and the latter went behind his Knight-Commander's back with the intent of using his extensive knowledge of the subject against her should he have deemed it necessary.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 mai 2013 - 02:55 .

[Lulupab]

^ Meredith used what he could as a templar and orsino did the same. They are not different. They both had faults, Meredith's usage of pure lyrium caused more horror and destruction whatsoever. Orsino could have done much worse if he wanted to. What he did was an act of desperation and the fact that he is a first enchanter aka the strongest mage in circle of kirkwall justifies the strength of the magic he used.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Not pure lyrium. Special ancient lyrium.

No one knew just how dangerous it was, while the danger of blood magic is common knowledge.

[Fallstar]

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The bullsh*t belongs to bioware not the mages. Just as an instant Hawke can become a blood mage other mages can become too. Bioware has shown us mages can turn to blood magic in desperate moments in blink of an eye. Thrask's daughter turned to abomination and cast blood magic in mere 3 seconds.

Its a possibility Orsino was a blood mage but there is no real proof whatsoever and the writers haven't said anything. Even so being a blood mage doesn't mean being evil an instant. Grey wardens have won battles against darkswpan thanks to blood magic.

The mages belong to Bioware so it is their bs too. Hawke can become a blood mage through gameplay. It isn't even acknowledged in the story. Actually, I prefer Origins much better when the warden had to actually make a pact with a demon to get it. But oh well.

Orsino is not casting that type of spell out of nowhere, he had access to Quentin's research and provided him with the books needed. He may not have been making abominations in the circle, but he practiced enough to know that he needed live sacrifices and how to cast it quite smoothly on the spot. It is obviously an advanced spell. Also, Orsino admits that he knew the spell but was holding on to it. How can you hold onto to a blood magic spell you don't know how to cast?

@The Grey Nayr, Lady Harimann was in fact, a mage.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

"She was a potent mage, and took control of the Harimann family following her Husband's death."

Her specalization is listed as "Blood Mage"

Actually you can just read a book in Awakening to learn blood mage. Also Jowan learned blood magic by studying forbidden texts in the Chantry library.

That said, I wouldn't deny that Orsino was using blood magic to turn himself into a Harvester. Doesn't he even say "They want to see blood magic? Then I'll give it to them" or words to that effect just before he casts the spell?

The game isn't really clear on where the boundary between normal magic and blood magic ends. A mage can manipulate the flow of blood in a body to prevent someone from bleeding to death, is that considered blood magic? As manipulating the flow of blood in a body to cause death is certainly considered blood magic in both games. Yet both uses of magic do the exact same thing - redirect blood. If one is blood magic, surely both are. 

[Fallstar]

Rassler wrote...

^ Meredith used what he could as a templar and orsino did the same. They are not different. They both had faults, Meredith's usage of pure lyrium caused more horror and destruction whatsoever. Orsino could have done much worse if he wanted to. What he did was an act of desperation and the fact that he is a first enchanter aka the strongest mage in circle of kirkwall justifies the strength of the magic he used.

It was a corrupted lyrium idol that suggested links to the darkspawn taint and the old gods. A lot of what Meredith did wasn't her fault. (Although buying the idol in the first place was stupid...)

His act of desperation was pure foolishness. He would have been far more useful in defeating the Templars if he had simply continued to cast spells. The only reason for his transformation was so that we had another end game boss to fight.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 23 mai 2013 - 04:54 .

[Lulupab]

DuskWarden wrote...

Rassler wrote...

^ Meredith used what he could as a templar and orsino did the same. They are not different. They both had faults, Meredith's usage of pure lyrium caused more horror and destruction whatsoever. Orsino could have done much worse if he wanted to. What he did was an act of desperation and the fact that he is a first enchanter aka the strongest mage in circle of kirkwall justifies the strength of the magic he used.

It was a corrupted lyrium idol that suggested links to the darkspawn taint and the old gods. A lot of what Meredith did wasn't her fault. (Although buying the idol in the first place was stupid...)

His act of desperation was pure foolishness. He would have been far more useful in defeating the Templars if he had simply continued to cast spells. The only reason for his transformation was so that we had another end game boss to fight.

That's what I'm saying. Orsino was a fool but he was not evil and was not involved in any conspiracy to do any harm. Bioware is kinda trying to tell us no side is better than the other. Both the templars and mages have faults. Many innocent mages have been annuled  and killed for something they had nothing to do with and Templars have died as well but the Templar death toll is much lesser than mages. What Anders did was extreme but Templars were never any less extreme in their methods as well. Just like in real world its never terrorism if the church (chantry) demands it. I don't mean now of course I mean medieval times which is a better time to compare to dragon age.

Modifié par Rassler, 23 mai 2013 - 05:15 .

[Hazegurl]

No one can say for sure whether Orsino was involved in a conspiracy or not. He hide a serial killer for his destructive research, research he held onto for himself. No amount of excuses will make his actions innocent in my eyes. If a scientist was performing unethical experiments on a Bio weapon and someone was aiding them in their research to hold onto it for themselves, then turn around and use it. I'm not going to say "Oh he's just a good noble man who never meant to harm anyone. He's just desperate." Nope, he's just as guilty and yeah he's holding that research for no good reason.

Although I do agree that the game is allowing us to take a look at the faults of both sides and pretty much forces us to pick a side. The way I see it, it's almost like a chicken or the egg situation, which came first? The answer to me is corrupt mages. The Templars and Chantry is a byproduct of mundanes being abused and oppressed by mages who seem to go on a major power trip when left unchecked. I do agree that the Templar's methods are extreme and that needs to change but also, if the mages didn't take any type of leniency as a sign to do whatever they please then the Templars wouldn't have to keep employing method after method to keep them in place.

As for what is blood magic and what isn't or what is good blood magic or bad blood magic. I don't think it matters anymore, at least not to me. The only thing that matters is what a mage plans to do with that power. A good percentage of them use it for no good so whether they like it or not, they need restrictions on that big time.

And I really can't have much sympathy for Anders, the abomination and I don't care all that much about his desperation. He's just a walking contradiction to himself. At least he acknowledges that, but still he refuses to see that the Templars are needed.

Anders warped logic: "I'm a danger to everyone around me....How can I protect mages when I'm the very thing a mage shouldn't be...blah blah...The Templars and the Chantry need to go!" Really Anders? He's a danger to everyone, a walking abomination but there should be no Templars to keep him away from the people who's lives he continues to acknowledge that he is endangering??

Why should everyone else have to deal with their (mages) demons...literally, because they can't control their use of magic?