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[Lulupab]

Then there should be a better method than the circles for controlling mages. Andraste never wanted to imprison all mages she just wanted Tevinter Imperium gone which was mostly cause of their ruthless rule. They were tyrants. In Awakening its known than Andraste dies before invention of circles and she had nothing to do with them. Tevinter Imperium didn't had Templars but they put down abominations on sight. They used blood magic but sacrificing anyone was murder, sometimes they did sacrifice the old slaves who couldn't work anymore though.

I'm not saying Tevinter was good either but number of desperate mages was much lower than now. No one was pushing or imprisoning them. Mage children went to special schools not prisons. The more the Templars push the more mages will resist until one side is gone forever. The Spirit of Justice before getting imbued with Ander's Anger admitted that Mages in Thedas face injustice. Aren't spirits Maker's first creations? Very much like Angels.

However if all mages get free and decide to fight with all Templars they will probably win. Templars inject lyrium in their blood to get magic resistance which offers no protection at all against blood magic since it manipulates they very blood injected with lyrium. Hence both blood magic trees in DAO and DA2 ignore all resistances. Against a blood mage a Templar is a normal warrior.

[lil yonce]

Rassler wrote...

^ Meredith used what she could as a templar and orsino did the same. They are not different. They both had faults, Meredith's usage of pure lyrium caused more horror and destruction whatsoever. Orsino could have done much worse if he wanted to. What he did was an act of desperation and the fact that he is a first enchanter aka the strongest mage in circle of kirkwall justifies the strength of the magic he used.

I don't think Meredith bought the Lyrium Idol because she wanted to gain some advantage over Orsino. The Idol calls out to anyone in near enough proximity-- first Bartrand and later Varric-- and that's likely why she bought it. The complete loss of sanity at the very end of Act 3 is the fault of the Idol as Bartrand's loss of sanity is the fault of the Idol. Meredith woulnd't have turned on her men if it weren't for the Idol.

And saying Orsino could have done worse when what he was doing was very bad and highly suspicious as a First Enchanter does not put him a better light IMO. I agree it was an act of desparation but IMO it was unnecessary. Had he cooperated with Meredith-- let her investigate the Circle properly as she wanted and not tried to hide behind Elthina or Hawke with cries of oppresssion things would have turned out differently. He didn't do anything but allow the corruption to spread. He claims there are no blood mages in the Circle and Meredith is crazy and making it up but we know that there are from the quests we receive in Act 3. From Ella's Letter to Hawke. From Alain's words in the Gallows after Best Served Cold etc.

So either Orsino was lying or he was incredibily out of touch with his own Circle. I think it was a bit of both. And he did nothing knowing full well that he himself had extensive secrect knowledge of blood magic and could easily be labeled a blood mage should any dirt on him be found-- that could also be another reason he never allowed Meredith to do her job.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mai 2013 - 12:00 .

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

Then there should be a better method than the circles for controlling mages. Andraste never wanted to imprison all mages she just wanted Tevinter Imperium gone which was mostly cause of their ruthless rule. They were tyrants. In Awakening its known than Andraste dies before invention of circles and she had nothing to do with them. Tevinter Imperium didn't had Templars but they put down abominations on sight. They used blood magic but sacrificing anyone was murder, sometimes they did sacrifice the old slaves who couldn't work anymore though.

I agree, there should be other methods in place, but how can you control people who want no restrictions on them at all? As for Andraste and the circle. You're probably right about that. I pretty much think of the circles as a product of the changing time periods. Why did the Chantry decide that they needed to have them to begin with? Is it really all about oppressing mages for no reason or was there a reason behind the need for them. I really can't say.

As for Tevinter, well they pretty much prove that mages don't have to be desperate to resort to heinous deeds for the pursuit of power. The Templars weren't oppressing them, mages were able to govern themselves freely and the Templars were nothing more than a police force for mages. Look at how that turned out. Fenris' account of Danarious killing a child at a party to fuel his magic was digusting and all the more reason why mages shouldn't govern themselves. Now a joint Templar/Mage rule I can get behind. Where the Templars still hold just as much power as the mages.

The Spirit of Justice before getting imbued with Ander's Anger admitted that Mages in Thedas face injustice. Aren't spirits Maker's first creations? Very much like Angels.

I like Merrill's assessement of that Justice Spirit:

Merrill: "Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. ..All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."


I never trusted Justice in my Awakening playthrough. He seemed good enough but I found that there was something too convenient about taking over Krisoff's corpse but I let it go, then he was talking to Anders trying to convince him to work with him for mage plight, I knew something was fishy about that as well. I sort of wondered if he was hoping to get himself a fresher body to inhabit. I mean how long can he stay inside a dead man's body? Well surprise surprise that Anders starts talking about how he let that spirit in him in DA2.

However if all mages get free and decide to fight with all Templars they will probably win. Templars inject lyrium in their blood to get magic resistance which offers no protection at all against blood magic since it manipulates they very blood injected with lyrium. Hence both blood magic trees in DAO and DA2 ignore all resistances. Against a blood mage a Templar is a normal warrior.

The Templars might lose, but then again considering that they understand your point much better than you or I can I'm sure they are trained to put a blood mage down quickly. In Asunder, The Templars pretty much defused that College situation pretty fast and had the mages locked back up in no time. But even so, I don't think war across Thedas will solve anything but get everyone killed and considering the fact that mages still need food, shelter, supplies, and so on that they sorely lack. The elements will be killing them off in record numbers without the Templars lifting much of a finger.

[Hazegurl]

double posted

Modifié par Hazegurl, 23 mai 2013 - 11:33 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Although I do agree that the game is allowing us to take a look at the faults of both sides and pretty much forces us to pick a side. The way I see it, it's almost like a chicken or the egg situation, which came first? The answer to me is corrupt mages.

And that's how I feel about it. I don't get the "Meredith is a mage hating byotch for kicks" vibe at all. I view her like Lambert-- their actions were out of necessity and caution. On this last playthrough I noted Anders says Meredith was not like Ser Alrik-- that she was not a sadist and that she was sincire in her beliefs that the public must be protected from mages and the mages from themselves however misguided she seems to him. Even he acknowledges that. I think it was either before or after Dissent he says that. It was during either of his Questioning Beliefs quests I know because I didn't get those.

The Templars and Chantry is a byproduct of mundanes being abused and oppressed by mages who seem to go on a major power trip when left unchecked. I do agree that the Templar's methods are extreme and that needs to change but also, if the mages didn't take any type of leniency as a sign to do whatever they please then the Templars wouldn't have to keep employing method after method to keep them in place. 

That's the problem. I like Lambert's line about the-- "They take one inch and demand ten more forgetting the very reason the Circle exists."

I also made a list of Meredith's supposed extreme actions against the mages on this run too:

• Three Starkhaven apostates were executed at random and the rest were quarantined upon arrival to the Kirkwall Circle. I told Ser Karras that they were blood mages but I think this happens regardless because they are under heavy suspicion of corruption due to their initial resistance.
• The Mages were denined their staves and grimoires during Act 2 as tensions rose between the two factions. Grace says this and if you talk to Ser Thrask  (I talked to him before I talked to Grace actually) he says that Grace has been preaching to Kirkwall mages that it is better to be free and dead than to live inside the Circle-- and that he believes bringing her to the Circle was a mistake.
• Mages were confined to quarters during Act 3 to prevent a violent outburst and Meredith had sent to Val Royeaux for the Right of Annulment.
• Alain says that the Templars beat the mages and no one says a thing-- though I think he is referring specifically to Ser Karras whom he implies rapes him and demands silence. Alain also implies he hasn't reported the crime and likely won't.
• Anders says that there are mages who are made tranquil though doing so is against Chantry law and for the slightest crime-- that was Ser Alrik's unlawful Tranquil Solution in effect.
• And he says mages are refused appearances at court. I don't know about that one. I didn't know mages were permitted to appear at court. I thought they were entirely under Templar jusrisdiction and the topic isn't explored further in-game.
• Later Anders says Meredith has instituted new curfews.
• And midnight raids on the familes of apostates are taking place.

I don't see any of the actions Meredith took as unncessary or as being extreme "just because". Some of her subordinates were crossing lines they shouldn't obviously, but I don't think Meredith herself acted irresponsibly. Keran's sister says Meredith has many admirers as she keeps the Mages in check during Act 1-- and to me that means something in a city overrun with bandits and thieves-- and after Enemies Among Us is completed Cullen states that Meredith has closed ranks and her own men undergo weekly questioning. She is cautious by nature, I think and takes preventative measures.

As for what is blood magic and what isn't or what is good blood magic or bad blood magic. I don't think it matters anymore, at least not to me. The only thing that matters is what a mage plans to do with that power. A good percentage of them use it for no good so whether they like it or not, they need restrictions on that big time.

I agree absolutely.

And I really can't have much sympathy for Anders, the abomination and I don't care all that much about his desperation. He's just a walking contradiction to himself. At least he acknowledges that, but still he refuses to see that the Templars are needed. Anders warped logic: "I'm a danger to everyone around me....How can I protect mages when I'm the very thing a mage shouldn't be...blah blah...The Templars and the Chantry need to go!" Really Anders? He's a danger to everyone, a walking abomination but there should be no Templars to keep him away from the people who's lives he continues to acknowledge that he is endangering?? Why should everyone else have to deal with their (mages) demons...literally, because they can't control their use of magic?

So true about Anders. Total hypocrite on the subject. Almost killed a mage he was trying to save because he can't control the spirit/demon inside him.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mai 2013 - 11:50 .

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

I agree, there should be other methods in place, but how can you control people who want no restrictions on them at all? As for Andraste and the circle. You're probably right about that. I pretty much think of the circles as a product of the changing time periods. Why did the Chantry decide that they needed to have them to begin with? Is it really all about oppressing mages for no reason or was there a reason behind the need for them. I really can't say.

From what I remember, the Circles were created after the age of the Inquisition. Mages and Dragon Cults were hunted and the Chantry offered an alternative that would ensure public safety. The mages volunteered to enter the Circles in this Codex Entry--History of the Circle.

As for Tevinter, well they pretty much prove that mages don't have to be desperate to resort to heinous deeds for the pursuit of power. The Templars weren't oppressing them, mages were able to govern themselves freely and the Templars were nothing more than a police force for mages. Look at how that turned out. Fenris' account of Danarious killing a child at a party to fuel his magic was digusting and all the more reason why mages shouldn't govern themselves. Now a joint Templar/Mage rule I can get behind. Where the Templars still hold just as much power as the mages.

And Lambert's story of wanting to reform Tevinter with the help of his mage friend who became the Black Divine-- the mage ultimately weakend the Templar Order until they became capable of doing very little to police magic.

I like Merrill's assessement of that Justice Spirit:

Merrill: "Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. ..All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

Yes. They aren't like people so you can't judge them as being good or bad by conventional standards.

The Templars might lose, but then again considering that they understand your point much better than you or I can I'm sure they are trained to put a blood mage down quickly. In Asunder, The Templars pretty much defused that College situation pretty fast and had the mages locked back up in no time. But even so, I don't think war across Thedas will solve anything but get everyone killed and considering the fact that mages still need food, shelter, supplies, and so on that they sorely lack. The elements will be killing them off in record numbers without the Templars lifting much of a finger.

That's how I see it playing out too. The Templars will likely starve them out at Andoral's Reach-- and its winter so the mage will lose numbers to sickness and the elements-- before offering them the chance to go back to the Circles without bloodshed and punish only the leaders before attacking, or take those who want to go back to safety and then attack the rest and haul the survivors back to the Circle. I think that's the plan. I don't think its going to be a long and drawn out war. One major battle and survivors flee elsewhere with Templars in pursuit. By the end of Asunder the Templars were ready to march on Andoral's Reach (They might have been there already. Can't excatly remember). I have a theory on this subject...http://social.biowar.../index/16452459

Another song that reminds me of the Mage-Templar conflict-- Turning.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And that's how I feel about it. I don't get the "Meredith is a mage hating byotch for kicks" vibe at all. I view her like Lambert-- their actions were out of necessity and caution.

That's the problem. I like Lambert's line about the-- "They take one inch and demand ten more forgetting  the very reason the Circle exists."

So true about Anders. Total hypocrite on the subject. Almost killed a mage he was trying to save because he can't control the spirit/demon inside him.

Right, Meredith isn't sitting in her office trying to think up interesting ways to torture mages so she can tell stories about it at the Hanged Man. The mages continue to get bolder so she had to become restricter. I may not have agreed with every action taken but the solution also wasn't to just open the doors of the Gallows and let them walk and it seems like the mages weren't happy with anything less than that extreme action.

Sometimes I let Anders kill her in my aggressive Hawke playthrough so Anders can see for himself the gravity of his actions. I role play my aggressive Hawke as a man who thinks a person should rule him/herself and suffer whatever consequences that should come as a result. So if Anders understands he is a danger then he should fight harder to overcome it. But he is such a failure and proof that he needed to be locked away or executed before he could hurt more people. Which he sadly does.

Youth4Ever wrote...

From what I remember, the Circles were
created after the age of the Inquisition. Mages and Dragon Cults were
hunted and the Chantry offered an alternative that would ensure public
safety. The mages volunteered to enterthe Circles in this Codex Entry--History of the Circle.

And
Lambert's story of wanting to reform Tevinter with the help of his mage
friend who became the Black Divine-- the mage ultimately weakend the
Templar Order until they became capable of doing very little to police
magic.

Yes. They aren't like people so you can't judge them as being good or bad by conventional standards.

That's
how I see it playing out too. The Templars will likely starve them out
at Andoral's Reach-- and its winter so the mage will lose numbers to
sickness and the elements--

I have a theory on this subject...http://social.biowar.../index/16452459

Another song that reminds me of the Mage-Templar conflict-- Turning.

Thanks for the Codex, I figured there had to be one somewhere but I couldn't find it. Seems like the mages weren't even satisfied being free and restricted in their use of magic.

Oh yeah I remember Lambert's story. That's why the Templars shouldn't be reduced to rent-a-cop status.

So true, Justice is just a spirit representing emotions, the way I see it one man's justice can be another's injustice.

I see it playing out the same way. Starve and freeze them out. They have nothing to sustain them through the winter and I like that idea in your link and with the devs already stating that the mage-templar war is just one of the issues in DA3 makes me think something worse is going to happen and that could be it.

Dragon Age the musical! Why is that looking more and more tangible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

Then there should be a better method than the circles for controlling mages.

There should be a better way for many, many things. But there isn't.

[MisterJB]

If we are suggesting a soundtrack for the Non-Mages vs Mages war, I believe the obvious choices must be "Do you hear the people sing?"
Neither side wishes to be slaves again.
Not that mages were ever slaves, mind you. But they would see it that way.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Anders point is proven. Anders, one renegade mage who has nothing to do with circle kills the grand cleric, ALL mages in the circle get punished for it. A Templar goes rouge aka renegade and makes mages tranquil for fun and even kills them, ONLY that Templar gets punished for it not even the people who helped him do it. This is the definition of injustice.

You might not see the picture here. Notice the true happiness on Anders face when he dies. He is a martyr who achieved what he wanted he is a hero to all mages in Thedas. Meredith on the other hand turned on her own people and died in extreme amounts of agony and pain. She utterly failed in everything she was suppose to do and betrayed every single Templar code and she is definitely no hero and was even stripped of her title by Cullen. She is a heretic to the Templar Order.

The thing is, no one but Anders ever cared, in the sligthest, about his notions of what is "just". Neither the Templars nor their supporters ever claimed the Circle is just, we believe it is necessary. And by commiting an act of terrorism; which is itself an injustice; what Anders actually proved was the Templar's point. Mages are dangerous.

While Meredith condemned an entire population of people to death for something they didn't do, showing that the templars are also dangerous in their declaration to commit genocide against the innocent - and wield too much power over mages as the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

He does not become a hero or a martyr. In the ending, it is Hawke name that becomes a rallying cry for a reason or the other, not Anders'. In Asunder, he is mentioned once and that is to call him a mad man. Likewise, it was the actions of the mages and templars in Asunder that lead to the current world conflict, not Anders' actions.
Anders is nothing but a dangerous, uncompromising, unresonable, hypocritical zealot who killed innocent people to justify his ideals

Hawke isn't mentioned in Asunder, and Anders is barely mentioned, in an effort to avoid making any of the options 'canon' for that particular storyline.

And the members of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't civilians; they are members of a politico-military organization that engaged in practices against mages that are condemned as slavery by some characters and authors.

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Hawke and Anders escape and live happily and eventually eradicating Templar Order. 

Hawke and Anders can escape and live together but eradicating the Templar Order is pure fanfiction. 

Everything is fan fiction until it becomes realized in the game.

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

If we are suggesting a soundtrack for the Non-Mages vs Mages war, I believe the obvious choices must be "Do you hear the people sing?"
Neither side wishes to be slaves again.
Not that mages were ever slaves, mind you. But they would see it that way.

True, I can see that song being some sort of mage anthem more than anything..that is until the mages start opressing non-mages then it'll be the non mage anthem. lol!

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

If we are suggesting a soundtrack for the Non-Mages vs Mages war, I believe the obvious choices must be "Do you hear the people sing?"
Neither side wishes to be slaves again.
Not that mages were ever slaves, mind you. But they would see it that way.

Your opinion on mages is way too biased its not even funny. Mages vs NONE-MAGES? seriously? Its totally mages + mage supporters who happen to be NONE MAGES vs Templars + Templar supporters who are all NONE MAGES.

Just becase Tevinter enslaved people doesn't mean mages were the one to do it. It was the Government of Tevinter Imperium. As its known Tevinter never made any none-tevinter mages Magisters. They are quite racist.

Modifié par Rassler, 25 mai 2013 - 06:55 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Your opinion on mages is way too biased its not even funny. Mages vs NONE-MAGES? seriously? Its totally mages + mage supporters who happen to be NONE MAGES vs Templars + Templar supporters who are all NONE MAGES.

Just becase Tevinter enslaved people doesn't mean mages were the one to do it. It was the Government of Tevinter Imperium. As its known Tevinter never made any none-tevinter mages Magisters. They are quite racist.

The government of Tevinter is entirely consisted of mages meaning that Tevinter was simply a group of mages taking advantage of their powers to enslave others; so, yes mages did it. And Andraste's rebellion was the non-mages finally fighting back.
The Circle are mages; the Templars and Chantry officials are all non-mages. This conflict is simply another capter of the neverending war that has been going war since the very first mage was born.

Sure, people from opposite groups can support the other group altough that hasn't happened yet.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While Meredith condemned an entire population of people to death for something they didn't do, showing that the templars are also dangerous in their declaration to commit genocide against the innocent - and wield too much power over mages as the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry.

The only reason Meredith was able to do that was because Anders removed a link from the chain of command meant to ensure the system works.
At least, the templars have reasons to keep mages alive and laws forbidding abuses. In Tevinter, magisters can do whatever they wish to non-mages and there is not a single law protecting them.

Hawke isn't mentioned in Asunder, and Anders is barely mentioned, in an effort to avoid making any of the options 'canon' for that particular storyline.

Anders is mentioned and it's to call him a "mad man".

And the members of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't civilians; they are members of a politico-military organization that engaged in practices against mages that are condemned as slavery by some characters and authors.

First of all, the whole city is burning. Plenty of civillians are dying.
Second, if Sisters or Brothers are not civillians, then neither are any mages in the Circle which also hold political and military power and act in ways meant to favor their people. Just like the Chantry does.

Everything is fan fiction until it becomes realized in the game.

Mr.Gaider has already told you personally that you shouldn't assume so much about DAI.
I imagine if you think the Inquisitor is going to work towards the destruction of either side of the conflict, you're likely wrong.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Your opinion on mages is way too biased its not even funny. Mages vs NONE-MAGES? seriously? Its totally mages + mage supporters who happen to be NONE MAGES vs Templars + Templar supporters who are all NONE MAGES.

Just becase Tevinter enslaved people doesn't mean mages were the one to do it. It was the Government of Tevinter Imperium. As its known Tevinter never made any none-tevinter mages Magisters. They are quite racist.

The government of Tevinter is entirely consisted of mages meaning that Tevinter was simply a group of mages taking advantage of their powers to enslave others; so, yes mages did it. And Andraste's rebellion was the non-mages finally fighting back.
The Circle are mages; the Templars and Chantry officials are all non-mages. This conflict is simply another capter of the neverending war that has been going war since the very first mage was born.

Sure, people from opposite groups can support the other group altough that hasn't happened yet.

No mages didn't do it. Tevinters who happened to be mages did it. They were first Tevinter then mage. What of mages in other countries? Did they enslave people too? Nope. Btw Andraste used methods that can easily be named Magic. She did something that Tevinter crops didn't grow and they marchd into battle hungry she also had help from Elves who used magic to aid Andraste. Andraste didn't fight magic, she fought Tevinter Imperium. Get your facts straight before spreading pro Templar propagonda.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
No mages didn't do it. Tevinters who happened to be mages did it. They were first Tevinter then mage. What of mages in other countries? Did they enslave people too? Nope. Btw Andraste used methods that can easily be named Magic. She did something that Tevinter crops didn't grow and they marchd into battle hungry she also had help from Elves who used magic to aid Andraste. Andraste didn't fight magic, she fought Tevinter Imperium. Get your facts straight before spreading pro Templar propagonda.

Andraste's words were "magic must serve man, not rule over him" so, as you can see, she is specifically referring to magic and not the Tevinter Imperium here. Meaning that while Andraste fought Tevinter, she was clearly aware of the dangers of magic itself, not just mages from Tevinter.
As to whether she was a mage, that's up for debate. She could have been, she could have exactly what she is said to be; the Maker's bride and He did it; or she could have just been an intelligent and charismatic non-mages who was able to take advantage of the current polical and climateric situation (my favorite scenario)
I can't remember a single mention of elves using magic to aid Andraste. Where is that stated?

Also, the reason that particular group of people were able to dominate the infrastructure of a nation and build an empire was because magic enabled them to do so. As for the other nations, that is highly debatable.
For instance, the Dalish. While they aren't slaves, supreme executive, judicial and legislative power rests with the Keeper who must always be a mage meaning that magic still enabled the few blessed with it to dominate society.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 mai 2013 - 01:40 .

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
No mages didn't do it. Tevinters who happened to be mages did it. They were first Tevinter then mage. What of mages in other countries? Did they enslave people too? Nope. Btw Andraste used methods that can easily be named Magic. She did something that Tevinter crops didn't grow and they marchd into battle hungry she also had help from Elves who used magic to aid Andraste. Andraste didn't fight magic, she fought Tevinter Imperium. Get your facts straight before spreading pro Templar propagonda.

Andraste's words were "magic must serve man, not rule over him" so, as you can see, she is specifically referring to magic and not the Tevinter Imperium here. Meaning that while Andraste fought Tevinter, she was clearly aware of the dangers of magic itself, not just mages from Tevinter.
As to whether she was a mage, that's up for debate. She could have been, she could have exactly what she is said to be; the Maker's bride and He did it; or she could have just been an intelligent and charismatic non-mages who was able to take advantage of the current polical and climateric situation (my favorite scenario)
I can't remember a single mention of elves using magic to aid Andraste. Where is that stated?

Also, the reason that particular group of people were able to dominate the infrastructure of a nation and build an empire was because magic enabled them to do so. As for the other nations, that is highly debatable.
For instance, the Dalish. While they aren't slaves, supreme executive, judicial and legislative power rests with the Keeper who must always be a mage meaning that magic still enabled the few blessed with it to dominate society.

"Magic must server man and never rule over him" doesn't mean mages should be imprisoned as its known in awakening Andraste had nothing to with invention of cirlces or Templars she died before all that happened. She wanted Tevinter gone not all magic.  Chantry is another story however. We know that Templars have gone rouge from Chantry. This means they are not holy or righteoues anymore. They are as dangerous as any mage group now. They would slaughter a family in sespection of having magic.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
"Magic must server man and never rule over him" doesn't mean mages should be imprisoned as its known in awakening Andraste had nothing to with invention of cirlces or Templars she died before all that happened. She wanted Tevinter gone not all magic.  Chantry is another story however. We know that Templars have gone rouge from Chantry. This means they are not holy or righteoues anymore. They are as dangerous as any mage group now. They would slaughter a family in sespection of having magic.

I know very well Andraste died long before the Chantry was extablished. I don't know what Andraste intended to do after Tevinter had been destroyed. Maybe she would support the Circle System, maybe she wouldn't. I, on the other hand, support it.
Also, you're assuming a lot about the Templars. While some would slaugther a family for suspicion of having magic, there are many others who wouldn't. This is quite visible in DA2's quest "The Last Holdouts".

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Replaying DA2 and received Ella's letter from the Circle after Dissent. It reads:

Messere Hawke,
In case you don't remember me, we met in the Gallows a few years ago. You saved my life. Twice, in fact. Once from Ser Alrik, and once from... someone else. It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, and no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now.So many dark whispers in the Circle. Terrible days are coming for all of us. I pray the Maker keeps you safe.
Sincerely,
Ella

Dark whispers in the Circle? The Templars don't want to fight? This from a mage? The Circle certainly deserves a share of the blame for what transpired in Kirkwall.  [/quote]

You may as well say the dwarves of Kirkwall share the blame for the criminal acts of the carta, even though the only thing they share is the commonality of them being dwarves. I don't see any reason to blame an entire population for the actions of the criminal element simply because those criminals were mages.

Also, we know there are some good people among the templars: Ser Thrask for one. He gathered mages and templars like him to work together, instead of having the templars having "dominion over mages by divine right". Like the templar Keran.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

And something interesting to note-- Cullen was in favor of expanding the Rite of Tranquility if you ask him about Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution. He says Alrik's plan was discussed it was discussed within the Order and rejected for its extremity, but he adds when questioned for his seeming approval of the idea states that limiting the rite to apprentices was perhaps too restricting on Templars-- that full mages who are under substantial suspicion of demonic consort should also be made tranquil. [/quote]

Cullen also thinks that mages shouldn't be treated as people (which he told to my apostate Hawke), and condemned them as weapons. The Knight-Captain also argues that templars have "dominion over mages by divine right".

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Replayed Best Served Cold last night and I noticed for the first time Grace became a Pride Abomination after I killed her original form. Her all-consuming rage makes perfect sense to me. Locked up in a Circle she didn't wish to be in and considered worse than the previous Circle she had been, she stewed in hatred. Feeling trapped under Templar scrutinty, she used the knowledge and magic Decimus taught her to consort a demon. Too much hatred, too much pride and it possesed her during the quest.

She definitely should have been #1 on Cullen's list. [/quote]

Grace's "all-consuming rage" against the mage protagonist who rescued her from the templars never made any sense for my pro-mage run, especially when my character killed templars (like the rapist Kerras) in an effort to protect her and the other Starkhaven mages.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Talking to Meredith after Best Served Cold, she is convinced Orsino is a blood mage and somehow involved in plots to overthrow her. Everyone thinks she's crazy-- Sebastian even labels it her "mad theories" after she condemns Elthina from blocking action against the First Enchanter after the incident in the Hightown Square at the begining of Act 3 where Orsino publically speaks out against her to the Nobility. (I think he was upset by Meredith dissing Elthina more than anything.) But Meredith responds with something along the lines of, "Many are labeled crazy right up until the point they are proven correct." I found that interesting because she was right about him being a blood mage in the end. [/quote]

Unless you have evidence you'd like to submit that Orsino actually performed blood magic outside of one, single ritual that can clearly only be done once, I'm not sure anyone can say for certain whether Orsino was a practicing blood mage or not. If we go by what Orsino actually says to the protagonist, the First Enchanter admits that he condemned Orsino's research as "too evil".

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Talking to Eltina in the Chantry after Faith and she says something along the lines of, "I will not stand by while Kirkwall bears the weight of war between the Templars and maleficarum," in a line of auto-dialogue. I interpret that as her primary concern is for the city and that she believes the Circle is corrupt or at least there are strong corrupt elements within it but doesn't want an Exhalted March called on the city. She also says Orino is a reasonable man and that surely a compromise is possible. [/quote]

Which is disingenious on Grand Cleric Elthina's part, because it's a schism between mages and templars, not simply "maleficarium".

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

During Showdown at the beginning of Act 3 reminding Orisno that he fights the Knight-Commander at every turn and that it hasn't helped the Circle at all, he says he's done cooperating with Meredith and that the suspected Circle corruption is just the latest of her accusations and nothing more.

Lyin'. Or at least severely downplaying the situation. [/quote]

Unless you have evidence that incriminates hundreds of men, women, and children who consistute the Circle of Kirkwall, Orsino isn't lying, or even downplaying the situation. Meredith is condemning an entire Circle of Magi because some mages turn to criminal acts, and we already know about the beatings, torture, rape, murder, and illegal tranquility committed by some of her templars explain why some mages would resist being a part of the Chantry controlled Circle.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

When returing Emile de Launcet to the Circle Meredith says she would have had him executed expect his father made an impassioned plea on his behalf and as a result she is further considering the matter. She asks for Hawke's opinion before proceeding and when Hawke explains Emile lied about being a blood mage to make himself more attractive, Meredith chuckles and says she will accept him back without issue. [/quote]

Meredith also kills mages to incite fear among the others if you convince the Starkhaven mages to surrender to the templars. Some of her top templars are sadists and rapists. The Knight-Commander illegally seized power over Kirkwall. She has a death squad murdering civilians. Her final act is to commit genocide against mages for being mages, because a hypothetical mob will demand their deaths (for being mages). I'm not seeing this genodical lunatic in the same light as you.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

And I probably killed a hundred blood mages in Hightown at night for the quest Red Run Streets.

Craziest thing is, my Hawke is a blood mage and no one realizes it or seems to care. Anders went off on Merril several during her quests but never said a word to me as I spammed Hemmorage on the battlefield. LOL. I would like to see a damage bounus given to all spells when you take the blood mage spec. Its supposed to make the caster's magic more powerful lore-wise I thought and I love to stack damage. At 10-15% increase thorough upgrades would be nice for DA3. [/quote]

You and I actually agree on this. Blood magic should be powerful. I also would have liked for my blood mage Hawke to be recognized by the other characters as an apostate who knows blood magic, but I could barely get anyone to actually recognize that my apostate was an illegal mage. Even Sebastian never acknowledges that Hawke is a mage, or seems to care, despite being firmly pro-Chantry in his views.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

My Hawke is a mage and I put Carver in the Grey Warden on the last run so on this one, he became a Templar. Sarcastic Hawke's line about the templar and mage running across the gallows from opposite ends to embrace during Merril's quest was great. Sarcastic Hawke FTW. And being a mage who sides with the Templars is an interesting dynamic. Shutting down Anders hard with Fenris and Sebastian in the party when he barks at Meredith after Best Served Cold was a golden moment in this playthrough. [/quote]

I prefer Carver as a Grey Warden. He seems to go through a lot of character growth as a person. During my first run, Carver became a templar, but I didn't think he embraced his role as a member of the Templar Order. And I'm sure you can guess who my apostate sided with during the final confrontation at the Gallows. Sebastian was not happy at all.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Worst thing about this playthrough is I've had Anders in my party almost the entire game. He's such a good mage. But I couldn't max his rivarly bar because he likes a lot of the actions I take. Same problem with Isabela on this run though she wasn't in the party. Her friendship bar was up due to fliriting but I denied her the Qunari relic at the end of Act 2 and during No Rest For The Wicked I denied her the ship. Her bar is stuck now with no hope of getting it to full rivarly or frienship. I don't know how the romance will end now without the last conversation. I gave her the Rivani Talisman but nothing really came of it and I won't get another quest for her. And I missed Aveline's shield gift during Demands of the Qun after killing Ser Varnell. Now her bar is 5-10 points away from max friendship but there is no way for me to get it or Questioning Beliefs with so few quests left at the end of Act 3. Too bad. I also had to take the friendship path with Sebastian when I wanted to rival him because he too liked too many of the things I did when he was in the party. [/quote]

I ran into the same problem with my blind first run, where I didn't max out Aveline, Fenris, or Sebastian, because I didn't take them on certain quests that advance their Friendship or Rivalry (although it comes across more as approval or disapproval at times). I even lost Isabela, who ran away and never came back. Didn't earn the respect of the Arishok. It was a bit of a mess. Merrill and Anders were another matter, since I was playing pro-mage, although Anders was still upset that my apostate romanced Merrill.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

I kinda screwed up with the companions this round. I might have to use a guide next time to get it right. I don't want to have to roleplay my Hawke differently, however.

I think this system needs work.  [/quote]

Yeah, it does need work. I wonder if Inquisition will resolve this issue. Having Fenris "respect" a pro-slavery Hawke will never make any sense to me, and that's how the Rivalry bar is supposed to work. It seems to be relatively "blind" to the nuances of your choices - you can agree with Anders about the plight of mages, for example, but disagree about his symbiosis with Justice, yet the game can't recognize the difference between the two because the Friendship and Rivalry meter is unified.

As for your next run, I'd recommend doing that. I avoided the Friendship and Rivalry problem during my canon run by planning ahead.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
"Magic must server man and never rule over him" doesn't mean mages should be imprisoned as its known in awakening Andraste had nothing to with invention of cirlces or Templars she died before all that happened. She wanted Tevinter gone not all magic.  Chantry is another story however. We know that Templars have gone rouge from Chantry. This means they are not holy or righteoues anymore. They are as dangerous as any mage group now. They would slaughter a family in sespection of having magic.

I know very well Andraste died long before the Chantry was extablished. I don't know what Andraste intended to do after Tevinter had been destroyed. Maybe she would support the Circle System, maybe she wouldn't. I, on the other hand, support it.
Also, you're assuming a lot about the Templars. While some would slaugther a family for suspicion of having magic, there are many others who wouldn't. This is quite visible in DA2's quest "The Last Holdouts".

Yes I know I think Andraste would be confused as mentioned in Awakening. Anyway I know Templars can be good as well. I'm not purely pro mage. But you should consider Mages can be good too. I myself support mages existing in harmony with everyone. But Templars don't represent all none-mage people. They are not born with it they can stop being a Templar anytime but mages can't do it. During rule of Tevinter Imperium many mages especially those who were not from Tevinter lived like Hawke's family. Mages born in mage families were trained by their parents and those who didn't had mage parents usually seek guidance from neighboring mage families. History has shown that Elves especially the Dalish have significantly lesser chance of becoming an abomination than humans living in circles. In circle they can't love, can't have children and don't have many rights other humans have, they don't have much to lose so seeking demons or turning to blood magic seems like an easy way out.

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...
We know that Templars have gone rouge from Chantry. This means they are not holy or righteoues anymore. They are as dangerous as any mage group now. They would slaughter a family in sespection of having magic.

Calling someone out for being bias while displaying bias opinions yourself. Well that's not fair.  I think we're all bit a bias in our opinions which is why the mage/templar threads tend to get so heated.

[Lulupab]

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...
We know that Templars have gone rouge from Chantry. This means they are not holy or righteoues anymore. They are as dangerous as any mage group now. They would slaughter a family in sespection of having magic.

Calling someone out for being bias while displaying bias opinions yourself. Well that's not fair.  I think we're all bit a bias in our opinions which is why the mage/templar threads tend to get so heated.

It can be bias but the whole existence of Templars is to be holy defenders of chantry and faithful, going rouge from it is like all mages turning to blood magic. You see I'm still sympathic towards chantry but rouge templars are something else.

Modifié par Rassler, 25 mai 2013 - 05:52 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Yes I know I think Andraste would be confused as mentioned in Awakening.

I think Andraste would think it was a good start-. Given the fact she was a former Tevinter slave turned Fereldan barbarian queen, I could see her supporting even harsher measures against the mages.

Anyway I know Templars can be good as well. I'm not purely pro mage. But you should consider Mages can be good too.

I do. There are good mages, Wynne, Bethany, Finn.

I myself support mages existing in harmony with everyone.

Impossible. Equality between mages and non-mages is impossible; therefore, by default, one side must dominate the other.

But Templars don't represent all none-mage people. They are not born with it they can stop being a Templar anytime but mages can't do it.

Without a non-mage police force capable of punishing those who abuse their magic, magical abuses would be even more common.

During rule of Tevinter Imperium many mages especially those who were not from Tevinter lived like Hawke's family. Mages born in mage families were trained by their parents and those who didn't had mage parents usually seek guidance from neighboring mage families.

That is an enormous assumption. If the Chasing are anything to go by, cultures outside of Tevinter still had mages in dominant positions even millenia ago.
Where is your information coming from?

History has shown that Elves especially the Dalish have significantly lesser chance of becoming an abomination than humans living in circles. In circle they can't love, can't have children and don't have many rights other humans have, they don't have much to lose so seeking demons or turning to blood magic seems like an easy way out.

That is the usual excuse but it's not entirely true.
First, the Dalish boast a much smaller population than humanity and their mages are all placed in position of authority. Meaning that not only can each and every mage receive more extensive and personal training than the average human mage, the fact they are all considered to be very important, means their lives are, well, easy.

It's true that some of the measures of the Circle can encourage a mage to seek demons but it's also a fact that templars are not the only source of suffering in Thedas. Freedom doesn't equal "easy life", there are many, many situations in the real world that could drive a mage to desperate actions. For instance, Connor summoned a demon because his father was dying which was entirely unrelated to the templars.
Expecting the people of Thedas to rely on mages having a life free of any troubles so they can be secure is extremely unrealistic.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

 Replaying DA2 and received Ella's letter from the Circle after Dissent. It reads:

Dark whispers in the Circle? The Templars don't want to fight? This from a mage? The Circle certainly deserves a share of the blame for what transpired in Kirkwall. [/quote]

Oh yeah I remember that letter!  It showed that not all Templars were for Alrik's plan, he wasn't missed which meant that none of the Templars even liked him. Yet that didn't seem to stop some of the circle mages from plotting. It also proves that the circle mages were plotting long before Anders ever took action by blowing up the Chantry in act 3.  This really made me think about Anders and his connection to the mage underground a little more closesly. [/quote]

Considering that Alrik and the templars who followed him weren't the only problem with the Circle of Kirkwall, I don't see why you'd think the mages would stop trying to be free simply because he died. And while not all of the templars were like Alrik - Thrask and Keran come to mind as two good men who were templars - we also know there are templars just as bad as Alrik. Kerras, who implies he wants to rape a female Hawke, and the templars who followed him. The templars who tortured a child of the Dalish to extract information about Feynriel. And the templars who raped Alain.

Again, I don't think all templars are the same. We have Ser Bryant and the Lothering templars, we have Ser Otto in the Denerim Alienage, and (I'd argue) Knight-Commander Greagoir, who seems like a moderate by delegating certain authority to First Enchanter Irving. However, the Circle of Kirkwall seems to be an incredibly toxic place to live, and I wouldn't wish the place on my worst enemy.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Codex entry on the mage underground:
"As of late, the movement has grown bolder, sending raiding parties into the Gallows in an attempt to break out mages who lack the skills or willpower to escape on their own. This is a grave concern. My recommendation is to
fight back, both physically and in turning the minds and hearts of their supporters against them."—Knight-Captain Cullen [/quote]

I'm glad some people were willing to put their lives on the line to rescue others from that place.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Triva notes: The mage underground is mentioned twice in Act 1: directly by a templar in the Docks standing across the Qunari Compound in the day-time and indirectly by Emeric when Hawke first meets him.


We all know of Anders direct involvement int he Mage Underground to the point of having secret access to the Gallows himself. I wonder just how many mages really knew of Ander's plan or at least knew something big was going to happen long before Meredith even took over. [/quote]

No one knew about Anders' plan; that was the point. He wanted to be the only one culpable of destroying the Kirkwall Chantry and killing Grand Cleric Elthina; it's why he admits he didn't tell Hawke, especially since he concedes that Hawke might actually want to help him.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

... limiting the rite to apprentices was perhaps to restricting on Templars-- that full mages who are under substantial suspicion of demonic consort should also be made tranquil. [/quote]


I agree with him and it makes a lot of sense considering the quote from I posted above. The mage underground was growing bolder, the mages were already plotting inside the circle, and it didn't help allowing mages who had contact with blood mages (Grace's connection to Decimus) inside the circle. Oh yeah Grace would have been number one on Cullen's list and rightfully so. [/quote]

Guilt by association? Making mages tranquil by mere suspicion? I guess I should be glad that Cullen never became the Knight-Commander.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Talking to Meredith after Best Served Cold, she is convinced Orsino is a blood mage and somehow involved in plots to overthrow her.

 But Meredith responds with something along the lines of, "Many are labeled crazy right up until the point they are poven corrrect." I found that interesting because she was right about him being a blood mage in the end.[/quote]

Very true. Anyone can call Meredith crazy or mad if they like, it still doesn't negate the fact that Orsino was a blood mage and she was correct in suspecting him. Also, look out for those blood mage Enchanters if you go Pro-Templar at the end. There are actually quite a few. these are the mages who are supposed to be overseeing, mentoring, and teaching the other mages?? And people wonder why Meredith was sending off for permission for the RoA. [/quote]

Those specific people used blood magic to defend their lives; nothing more. Maybe it had something to do with the templars beating, torturing, raping, and killing mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. Or the mages who were illegally made tranquil so Alrik and his ilk could rape them. Perhaps the insane Knight-Commander becoming Kirkall's despotic leader was a factor in their decision to learn blood magic. There are so many horrors that the mages in the Gallows had to deal with that I'm not going to condemn those Enchanters for using blood magic, or defending their lives because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob by killing all the mages.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

What she's dealing with so far is the Mage Underground (which is filled with blood mages)raiding the Gallows with secret passages in and out of it, Manifestos spreaded all over Kirkwall inciting rage against the Templars, Blood mages running wild, mages who are having far too many connections to blood mages being put into the circle, mages corrupting her Templars with demons, Mages using smear campaign tatics to get good Templars fired(you find this out in a pro mage run), a possible Exalted March on Kirkwall if things aren't fixed soon, and mages within the circle plotting against the templars.  [/quote]

The Mage Underground is a group of people - mages and non-mages - who are trying to help mages. Anders, for one, despises blood magic, and I doubt he would endorse anyone using it when he's constantly on Merrill's case about blood magic.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

If I was Meredith I would either be packing my bags for a nice long beach vacation and just let the March come to Kirkwall or try to find a solution in the RoA. [/quote]

Considering Meredith was the cause of so much unrest, I think her absense would have been beneficial.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

he says he's done cooperating with Meredith and that the suspected Circle corruption is just the latest of her accusations and nothing more.

Lyin'. Or at least severely downplaying the situation.[/quote]

He is totally lying because he calls Hawke to him in secret to root out the corruption between a group of inner circle rebel mages and Templars. So while Orsino was calling Meredith crazy in public he was actually agreeing with her but wanted the circle to look good as he claims he was scared of what Meredith would do with the knowledge. But I think he was really afriad of losing public support for the mages by agreeing with her. He did pretty much make Meredith's job harder and backed her into a corner. He claims that he hoped Meredith was lying to make the mages look bad...but considering the fact that he is a lying blood mage hiding in the circle while aiding a serial killer for knowledge about his research, I take his word with a grain of salt. [/quote]

Orsino didn't want Meredith to anul the entire Circle for the actions of a few - that's why he confides in Hawke about his suspicions, rather than Meredith. It's also the reason given for why Orsino doesn't tell anyone about Quentin when he discovers that Quentin was murdering women for his moronic research.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Craziest thing is, my Hawke is a blood mage and no one realizes it or seems to care. [/quote]

The devs totally dropped the ball on this one. How on earth can they have a blood mage/Templar centric storyline yet never think or bother to include the Templar or Blood Mage skills Hawke has into the freaking story. I was so disappointed when I made my Hawke a blood mage and everyone, even Fenris was calling him a good mage while my hawke was punishing other blood mages for doing what he himself was doing. lol! I had a warrior Hawke once with Templar skills yet zero mention of this from anyone. [/quote]

On this, we agree. I don't see why the writers never bothered to consider writing dialogue for a blood magic protagonist, or why being an apostate is given such minimal recognition throughout the storyline. Hopefully, Inquisition rectifies this issue.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Worst thing about this playthrough is I've had Anders in my party almost the entire game. He's such a good mage. But I couldn't max his rivarly bar because he likes a lot of the actions I take.

I think this system needs work. [/quote]

Oh yeah they need to work on the rival/friend thing for the next game. I have to metagame to get Anders to full rivalry I also end up doing too many things he likes if I role play the way I want but I like having him and Fenris in my party. Actually I can play this entire game with just Varric, Fenris, and Anders if I could. Although sometimes  I take up the spirit healer trait so I can leave Anders behind on some missions. [/quote]

I've also taken the Spirit Healer specialization for my blood mage Hawke. I hope Inquisition accounts for how our protagonist learns particular specializations, rather than me using head canon to explain how my character has learned the healing arts and the school of blood magic.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Oh wow, that song would match the mage templar war perfectly! Now I just thought of Dragon age as a musical, lol!! [/quote]

There are a lot of great songs from Les Miserables.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Guilt by association? Making mages tranquil by mere suspicion? I guess I should be glad that Cullen never became the Knight-Commander.

Not guilt by association. She escaped from Starkhaven as well and spent the entirety of her time Kirkwall inciting mages to rebel. She is, obviously, dangerous. Send her to Aeonar, at the very least.

Those specific people used blood magic to defend their lives; nothing more. Maybe it had something to do with the templars beating, torturing, raping, and killing mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. Or the mages who were illegally made tranquil so Alrik and his ilk could rape them. Perhaps the insane Knight-Commander becoming Kirkall's despotic leader was a factor in their decision to learn blood magic. There are so many horrors that the mages in the Gallows had to deal with that I'm not going to condemn those Enchanters for using blood magic, or defending their lives because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob by killing all the mages.

Those mages did not learn blood magic to defend themselves from potential abuses, that is an undeniable fact.
And I'll explain why. If Karras attempted to rape a mage and she used blood magic to defend herself, that excuse wouldn't fly with the rest of the Order who would kill her for being a blood mage. Even if all she did was punish someone who deserved it.
Therefore, any mages that learned blood magic before the night Elthina died fully intended to go on the offensive at some point.

The Mage Underground is a group of people - mages and non-mages - who are trying to help mages. Anders, for one, despises blood magic, and I doubt he would endorse anyone using it when he's constantly on Merrill's case about blood magic.

One of the very first things Anders says in Act 3 is how the mage underground has turned to blood magic. This is corroborated in "Last Holdout" where Hawke helps destroy the last elements and they are using blood magic.

Orsino didn't want Meredith to anul the entire Circle for the actions of a few - that's why he confides in Hawke about his suspicions, rather than Meredith. It's also the reason given for why Orsino doesn't tell anyone about Quentin when he discovers that Quentin was murdering women for his moronic research.

Ah, so it's okay for mages to mistrust non-mages but if they do the same, they're bigots and dangerous zealots.