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[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Meredith condemned an entire population of people to death for something they didn't do, showing that the templars are also dangerous in their declaration to commit genocide against the innocent - and wield too much power over mages as the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry.

The only reason Meredith was able to do that was because Anders removed a link from the chain of command meant to ensure the system works.
At least, the templars have reasons to keep mages alive and laws forbidding abuses. In Tevinter, magisters can do whatever they wish to non-mages and there is not a single law protecting them.

Mages and non-mages are enslaved in Tevinter, and both groups can suffer at the hands of the Magisters.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke isn't mentioned in Asunder, and Anders is barely mentioned, in an effort to avoid making any of the options 'canon' for that particular storyline.

Anders is mentioned and it's to call him a "mad man".  

I take it the "barely mentioned" part of my sentence escaped your notice? And I doubt everyone thinks Anders is a "mad man" simply because one person felt that way.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And the members of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't civilians; they are members of a politico-military organization that engaged in practices against mages that are condemned as slavery by some characters and authors.

First of all, the whole city is burning. Plenty of civillians are dying.
Second, if Sisters or Brothers are not civillians, then neither are any mages in the Circle which also hold political and military power and act in ways meant to favor their people. Just like the Chantry does.

First, the whole city isn't burning. And your second line is an assumption about what you think has happened. All we know is that Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina, along with the members of the Kirkwall Chantry and the Order of Templars who were in the building with her.

Second, the people who voluntarily join the morally bankrupt organization of the Andrastian Chantry aren't the same as the men, women, and children who are subjugated under the authority of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everything is fan fiction until it becomes realized in the game. 

Mr.Gaider has already told you personally that you shouldn't assume so much about DAI.

While I corrected Gaider that that specific thread was about speculation, nothing more.

MisterJB wrote...

I imagine if you think the Inquisitor is going to work towards the destruction of either side of the conflict, you're likely wrong. 

I imagine if you bothered to actually read what I had written, you'd see that my point is that every speculation is basically "fan fiction" until it becomes realized in the game. And I didn't even address Inquisition specifically, so I'm not certain what your point actually is.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 mai 2013 - 07:58 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages and non-mages are enslaved in Tevinter, and both groups can suffer at the hands of the Magisters.

The cultural view of Tevinter is that mages are a superior lifeform to non-mages meaning that even if mages are enslaved, they will be in smaller number and there is very little chance of them receiving the same treatment of a non-mage slave.

I take it the "barely mentioned" part of my sentence escaped your notice?

No but the fact that I referring to Anders being mentioned in Asunder and not Hawke on my previous post escaped yours.

And I doubt everyone thinks Anders is a "mad man" simply because one person felt that way.

Oh, I do not doubt there is plenty of mages who feel Anders did the right thing. Some of them are magisters wannabe too.
But when Wynne acused him of being a mad man, Fiona had to agree meaning that, regardless of how she felt, the popular viewpoint that must be defended when in public is that Anders was a monster.

First, the whole city isn't burning.

Even if it wasn't; which is an assumption; a portion of it where citizens of Kirkwall lived in is meaning that Anders and Vengeance killed many innocents that night.

And your second line is an assumption about what you think has happened. All we know is that Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina, along with the members of the Kirkwall Chantry and the Order of Templars who were in the building with her.

In your previous post, you claimed that, and I quote, "the members of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't civilians".
Members of the Andrastian Chantry include everything from the Divine to a simple Brother/Sister and Chanter.

 

Second, the people who voluntarily join the morally bankrupt organization of the Andrastian Chantry aren't the same as the men, women, and children who are subjugated under the authority of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. 

if a Brother/Sister whose duty likely extend only to tending the Eternal Flame, providing succor for widows and orphans, post notes in the Chanter's Board, providing Last Rites for condemned prisioners, etc are acceptable targets in this war, then so is any mage in the Circle of the same age.
At least, those mages can defend themselves.

I imagine if you bothered to actually read what I had written, you'd see that my point is that every speculation is basically "fan fiction" until it becomes realized in the game. And I didn't even address Inquisition specifically, so I'm not certain what your point actually is.

Right, let's not pretend that what you meant was not that you intended to eradicate the Templars. And what I intended was to remind you that the chances of that happening are slim, per interpretation of Mr. Gaider's words.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Guilt by association? Making mages tranquil by mere suspicion? I guess I should be glad that Cullen never became the Knight-Commander.

Not guilt by association. She escaped from Starkhaven as well and spent the entirety of her time Kirkwall inciting mages to rebel. She is, obviously, dangerous. Send her to Aeonar, at the very least.

Given the abuses that are going on in the Circle of Kirkwall, I wouldn't blame anyone for condemning the Chantry controlled Circle.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Those specific people used blood magic to defend their lives; nothing more. Maybe it had something to do with the templars beating, torturing, raping, and killing mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. Or the mages who were illegally made tranquil so Alrik and his ilk could rape them. Perhaps the insane Knight-Commander becoming Kirkall's despotic leader was a factor in their decision to learn blood magic. There are so many horrors that the mages in the Gallows had to deal with that I'm not going to condemn those Enchanters for using blood magic, or defending their lives because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob by killing all the mages.

Those mages did not learn blood magic to defend themselves from potential abuses, that is an undeniable fact.

Simply because you have an opinion on the matter doesn't make it an indisputable fact. If I was living in a Circle of Magi where mages were being tortured, beaten, raped, and killed, then blood magic could be an option for me to defend myself against potential abuses. I certainly think it's a valuable option for apostates who want to avoid a similar fate from templars hunting them down outside the Circles.

MisterJB wrote...

And I'll explain why. If Karras attempted to rape a mage and she used blood magic to defend herself, that excuse wouldn't fly with the rest of the Order who would kill her for being a blood mage. Even if all she did was punish someone who deserved it.
Therefore, any mages that learned blood magic before the night Elthina died fully intended to go on the offensive at some point.

In other words, it's not an "undeniable fact", but speculation on your part.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Mage Underground is a group of people - mages and non-mages - who are trying to help mages. Anders, for one, despises blood magic, and I doubt he would endorse anyone using it when he's constantly on Merrill's case about blood magic.

One of the very first things Anders says in Act 3 is how the mage underground has turned to blood magic. This is corroborated in "Last Holdout" where Hawke helps destroy the last elements and they are using blood magic.

At a point where Anders isn't working with them because Meredith has pretty much crushed the mage underground at this point, you mean?

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino didn't want Meredith to anul the entire Circle for the actions of a few - that's why he confides in Hawke about his suspicions, rather than Meredith. It's also the reason given for why Orsino doesn't tell anyone about Quentin when he discovers that Quentin was murdering women for his moronic research.

Ah, so it's okay for mages to mistrust non-mages but if they do the same, they're bigots and dangerous zealots.

When that specific person is looking for an excuse to commit genocide, most certainly.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Given the abuses that are going on in the Circle of Kirkwall, I wouldn't blame anyone for condemning the Chantry controlled Circle. 

Could you curb your tendency to go on a tangent for a bit?
The point was not whether Grace was right or not. The point was whether the templars had reason to take extra precautions with her such as the Rite. Clearly they did.

In other words, it's not an "undeniable fact", but speculation on your part. 

Tell you what, if you can justify, based on logic, how a not braid dead mage would think using blood magic only and purely in self defence inside the Circle would work, I will admit it's speculation.
Meanwhile, it remains an undeniable fact. You didn't even try to point out a flaw in my logic.

At a point where Anders isn't working with them because Meredith has pretty much crushed the mage underground at this point, you mean? 

So? The point was not whether the mage underground used blood magic while Anders was with them. The point was whether the mage underground used blood magic at any times which they clearly did.

When that specific person is looking for an excuse to commit genocide, most certainly.

Maker knows mages have always been so very worthy of trust. How could Meredith possible think Orsino was hiding blood mages when he was only hiding blood mages?

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 mai 2013 - 09:59 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages and non-mages are enslaved in Tevinter, and both groups can suffer at the hands of the Magisters.[/quote]

The cultural view of Tevinter is that mages are a superior lifeform to non-mages meaning that even if mages are enslaved, they will be in smaller number and there is very little chance of them receiving the same treatment of a non-mage slave. [/quote]

The Tevinter Imperium enslaved the elves of Arlathan, despite many of them being mages. They have attacked societies with free mages. They seem to have a high opinion of being Tevinter, but not necessarily being a mage.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it the "barely mentioned" part of my sentence escaped your notice?[/quote]

No but the fact that I referring to Anders being mentioned in Asunder and not Hawke on my previous post escaped yours. [/quote]

Considering that I addressed that little emphasis was given to Anders to avoid addressing whether he was alive or dead, as well as the choice made between siding with Meredith or the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall (which is precisely the reason given for why Hawke isn't mentioned at all in Asunder), you would be wrong.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And I doubt everyone thinks Anders is a "mad man" simply because one person felt that way. [/quote]

Oh, I do not doubt there is plenty of mages who feel Anders did the right thing. Some of them are magisters wannabe too. [/quote]

Anders thinks that the elves should fight for their rights because of the plight the Alienage elves face living in the slums, and he desires equality between mages and non-mages. I don't see why anyone who follows the model of Tevinter would desire the same things as Anders. He's the anthesis of the Magisters of the Imperium.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

But when Wynne acused him of being a mad man, Fiona had to agree meaning that, regardless of how she felt, the popular viewpoint that must be defended when in public is that Anders was a monster. [/quote]

When the templars can kill you for espousing certain points of view? Certainly.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

First, the whole city isn't burning.[/quote]

Even if it wasn't; which is an assumption; a portion of it where citizens of Kirkwall lived in is meaning that Anders and Vengeance killed many innocents that night. [/quote]

The Kirkwall Chantry was destroyed in an explosion of rare ingredients and magic - we know he killed the members of the Andrastian Chantry in that building. Anything else is speculation until one of the developers confirms the facts of the aftermath.

You're welcome to speculate, of course.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And your second line is an assumption about what you think has happened. All we know is that Anders killed Grand Cleric Elthina, along with the members of the Kirkwall Chantry and the Order of Templars who were in the building with her.[/quote]

In your previous post, you claimed that, and I quote, "the members of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't civilians".
Members of the Andrastian Chantry include everything from the Divine to a simple Brother/Sister and Chanter. [/quote]

In other words, members of an organization that engage in the brutal enslavement of mages; an organization with members who have preached their singular worldview to the people, and can use their religious authority to attack other nations by using religion to target others. Members of a politico-military group that wants to spread to the four corners of the world, even if it means stamping out the religious views of other people, or outright murdering entire towns of people who follow different religious views (as we know from the New Exalted Marches). To put it simply: they aren't civilians. Not in the least.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Second, the people who voluntarily join the morally bankrupt organization of the Andrastian Chantry aren't the same as the men, women, and children who are subjugated under the authority of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. [/quote]

if a Brother/Sister whose duty likely extend only to tending the Eternal Flame, providing succor for widows and orphans, post notes in the Chanter's Board, providing Last Rites for condemned prisioners, etc are acceptable targets in this war, then so is any mage in the Circle of the same age.
At least, those mages can defend themselves. [/quote]

Against templars who can nulify their powers, and who have absolute authority over them in the name of religion, specifically the Maker? Hardly. Mages have been oppressed and subjugated by the Andrastian Chantry for nearly a millennia. The men, women, and children of the Circles also aren't the same as people who voluntarily join a religious military order.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I imagine if you bothered to actually read what I had written, you'd see that my point is that every speculation is basically "fan fiction" until it becomes realized in the game. And I didn't even address Inquisition specifically, so I'm not certain what your point actually is.v[/quote]

Right, let's not pretend that what you meant was not that you intended to eradicate the Templars. And what I intended was to remind you that the chances of that happening are slim, per interpretation of Mr. Gaider's words.
[/quote]

You're welcome to pretend all you want, but try to stick with what i actually write, instead of trying to find hidden meanings in what I've written.

[Lulupab]

@MisterJB You also forget that Chantry and its right hand the seekers have already condemned Templars for going rouge. Right now they are not any different than groups we faced in Kirkwall like the winters or the Coetrie. Rouge Templars match what Sarcastic mage hawke said, They are maniacs with swords who think maker is on their side.

You can defend the chantry or the seekers but your certainly cannot defend rouge Templars. They are mercenaries now and many will act on their own. Killing them is no different than killing a group of mercenaries you stumble upon a road. The poetic thing here is Templars are very much like Anders and Justice. First they were a force to bring Justice now they are nothing but a force of mind washed people who only want Vengeance.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium enslaved the elves of Arlathan, despite many of them being mages. They have attacked societies with free mages. They seem to have a high opinion of being Tevinter, but not necessarily being a mage.

If that was true, non-mage Tevinter would have the same rights of mage Tevinters. They don't. It's even part of theric reed that being born with magic means you are favored by the Maker and that gives you the right to rule.
Plus, WoT page 103 clearly states being a mage in Tevinter grants you much prestige and birthing mage children is about all non-mage families can aspire to.

Considering that I addressed that little emphasis was given to Anders to avoid addressing whether he was alive or dead, as well as the choice made between siding with Meredith or the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall (which is precisely the reason given for why Hawke isn't mentioned at all in Asunder), you would be wrong.

And yet you spoke of Hawke not being mentioned in Asunder despite the fact I made no such claim which lead me to believe you had misunderstood me.

Anders thinks that the elves should fight for their rights because of the plight the Alienage elves face living in the slums, and he desires equality between mages and non-mages. I don't see why anyone who follows the model of Tevinter would desire the same things as Anders. He's the anthesis of the Magisters of the Imperium.

Oh yeah, he only mentions Tevinter as a viable alternative twice. And supports selling Fenris into slavery. And says that no non-mage will be safe if Kirkwall falls to magic.
Totally not magister like behavior.

When the templars can kill you for espousing certain points of view? Certainly.

There were no templars in that meeting.
And when was the last time templars killed anyone for differing view points, really?

The Kirkwall Chantry was destroyed in an explosion of rare ingredients and magic - we know he killed the members of the Andrastian Chantry in that building. Anything else is speculation until one of the developers confirms the facts of the aftermath.

You're welcome to speculate, of course.

Not only would the falling debris kill people, Anders directly started the Battle of Kirkwall where many innocents died.
There is no speculation involved.

In other words, members of an organization that engage in the brutal enslavement of mages; an organization with members who have preached their singular worldview to the people, and can use their religious authority to attack other nations by using religion to target others. Members of a politico-military group that wants to spread to the four corners of the world, even if it means stamping out the religious views of other people, or outright murdering entire towns of people who follow different religious views (as we know from the New Exalted Marches). To put it simply: they aren't civilians. Not in the least.

Not only was what you said mostly untrue, the ideologies of a faction does not determine who is or isn't a civillian which is a term with a proper definition.
And if a Brother or Sister who spend their times helping others and take no part in any decision making within the Chantry or Templar Order are, somehow, acceptable target, so are any mages affiliated with the Circle.
After all, they are as much part of the Circle, as Sisters are part of the Chantry.

Against templars who can nulify their powers, and who have absolute authority over them in the name of religion, specifically the Maker?

Your tendency to repeat irrelevant information just because you think it sounds strong is annoying.
Religion is irrelevant to the abilities of a mage to defend himself which is, clearly, greater than that of a regular Brother.

The men, women, and children of the Circles also aren't the same as people who voluntarily join a religious military order.

Irrelevant. They are a part of it, regardless.

You're welcome to pretend all you want, but try to stick with what i actually write, instead of trying to find hidden meanings in what I've written.

Go blow sand into the eyes of someone else.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

@MisterJB You also forget that Chantry and its right hand the seekers have already condemned Templars for going rouge. Right now they are not any different than groups we faced in Kirkwall like the winters or the Coetrie. Rouge Templars match what Sarcastic mage hawke said, They are maniacs with swords who think maker is on their side.

You can defend the chantry or the seekers but your certainly cannot defend rouge Templars. They are mercenaries now and many will act on their own. Killing them is no different than killing a group of mercenaries you stumble upon a road. The poetic thing here is Templars are very much like Anders and Justice. First they were a force to bring Justice now they are nothing but a force of mind washed people who only want Vengeance.

Do you defend apostates? Then why shouldn't I defend rogue templars simply because they are no longer affiliated with the Chantry?
Perhaps I agree with them. Perhaps I believe Justinia is a weak fool who will guide our people back into the chains of a magocracy if continue to be followed and that the mages have been treated with too much trust and compassion.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given the abuses that are going on in the Circle of Kirkwall, I wouldn't blame anyone for condemning the Chantry controlled Circle. 

Could you curb your tendency to go on a tangent for a bit?
The point was not whether Grace was right or not. The point was whether the templars had reason to take extra precautions with her such as the Rite. Clearly they did.

It wasn't a tangent; it was on point to address that some people would resist the toxic enviornment of the Chantry controlled Circle. Giving the templars the authority to target mages at their leisure for the Rite of Tranquility is too much authority and power, and it's one of the reasons I'm glad the mages have emancipated themselves from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's not an "undeniable fact", but speculation on your part. 

Tell you what, if you can justify, based on logic, how a not braid dead mage would think using blood magic only and purely in self defence inside the Circle would work, I will admit it's speculation.
Meanwhile, it remains an undeniable fact. You didn't even try to point out a flaw in my logic.

Templars can nulify ordinary magic with their talents. The same isn't true for blood magic, since it isn't tied to the Fade like ordinary magic is. If you might end up getting tortured, raped, or killed, you might consider using blood magic to defend yourself against templars like Alrik and Kerras. It's a possibility I'm willing to consider, given how horrific the Circle of Kirkwall is.

And your opinions and speculations aren't facts, no matter how much you claim otherwise. You're most certainly welcome to theorize on why those specific Enchanters learned blood magic, but that's all it is at this point.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

At a point where Anders isn't working with them because Meredith has pretty much crushed the mage underground at this point, you mean? 

So? The point was not whether the mage underground used blood magic while Anders was with them. The point was whether the mage underground used blood magic at any times which they clearly did.

Except you retorted to my line about Anders not condoning blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When that specific person is looking for an excuse to commit genocide, most certainly. 

Maker knows mages have always been so very worthy of trust. How could Meredith possible think Orsino was hiding blood mages when he was only hiding blood mages? 

By "blood mages", you mean Quentin, and only Quentin?

To get back to the OP, neither one persuades me to side with Meredith, or even to consider that it's the "right" thing to do. Neither man is justification to butcher hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for being mages, and that's precisely what Meredith does in invoking the Right of Annulment to kill an entire population of people - because that's what she thinks the mob will demand: killing these people simply for being mages.

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...
It can be bias but the whole existence of Templars is to be holy defenders of chantry and faithful, going rouge from it is like all mages turning to blood magic. You see I'm still sympathic towards chantry but rouge templars are something else.

I understand, but I don't have a problem with the templars going rogue. The divine turned her back on the templars first so she should be ousted and a new Divine appointed. If the templars refuse to return to the Chantry afterwards then they should be hunted down and arrested by the Seekers.

LobselVith8 wrote...

 (I'd argue) Knight-Commander Greagoir, who seems like a moderate by delegating certain authority to
First Enchanter Irving. However, the Circle of Kirkwall seems to be an incredibly toxic place to live, and I wouldn't wish the place on my worst enemy.

I'm glad some people were willing to put their lives on the line to rescue others from that place.

I believe the Kirkwall circle was toxic due to both Mages and the Templars(if I were to exclude the thin veil etc). Take the relationship between Greagoir and Irving, they hated each other or at least didn't like each other but they worked together. I'm sure many mage supporters would say that Meredith is at fault for not working with Orsino but I think it goes both ways. Orsino never cooperated with her the same way Irving does Greagoir and vice versa.  who knows for certain who is truly at fault or who began to not cooperate first, but I consider both at fault for not tossing some olive branches.

As for those raiding parties. While I understand the sentiment behind the action they only made it worse on mages in the long run. I can't fault the Templars for becoming even more strict because of it. They simply cannot tolerate stuff like that and they wouldn't be doing their job if they did.

No one knew about Anders' plan; that was the point. He wanted to be the only one culpable of destroying the Kirkwall Chantry and killing Grand Cleric Elthina; it's why he admits he didn't tell Hawke, especially since he concedes that Hawke might actually want to help him.

But how are the Templars supposed to know that Anders acted alone? He's apart of an organization of mages who sneak into the Gallows regularly. I wouldn't trust nor believe a word he says about acting alone. I don't even trust his word as he lied to Hawke just to get the deed done.

Guilt by association? Making mages tranquil by mere suspicion? I guess I should be glad that Cullen never became the Knight-Commander.

No, but under careful evaluation Grace should have been made tranquil. Look at what happens when she isn't. A good man loses his life and Hawke could have lost a sibling, lover, or friend.

Those specific people used blood magic to defend their lives; nothing more. Maybe it had something to do with the templars beating, torturing,raping, and killing mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. Or the mages who
were illegally made tranquil so Alrik and his ilk could rape them. Perhaps the insane Knight-Commander becoming Kirkall's despotic leader was a factor in their decision to learn blood magic. There are so many horrors that the mages in the Gallows had to deal with that I'm not going to condemn those Enchanters for using blood magic, or defending their lives because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob by killing all the mages.

Those Enchanters prove that Meredith was not bat shyt crazy. Just as Orsino proves that Meredith was not some deranged mad woman.  In the end that was the point of our discussion.  As for their reaons for turning to blood magic. I actually don't blame them... much.  If I was a mage in the circle I would study blood magic just in case some mages do something retarded that places me in the predicament of having to fight Templars for my life. Considering that most mages are dumb like Anders it would be a wise investment.  But I would use it to escape the circle than join up with them to fight in the halls.

You mean that hypothetical mob who tried to kill Wynne and Co. in Asunder?

The Mage Underground is a group of people - mages and non-mages - who are trying to help mages. Anders, for one, despises blood magic, and I doubt he would endorse anyone using it when he's constantly on Merrill's case about blood magic.

Oh the mage underground starring Anders the abomination. No thanks. He's a total hypocrite for getting on Merrill's case about blood magic when he has a demon riding shot gun inside his body. I agree with him but who is he to condemn anyone? And yeah I'm sure many of them are blood mages, they would have to be to trust sneaking in and out of the Gallows.

Considering Meredith was the cause of so much unrest, I think her absense would have been beneficial.

Yes, and mages weren't the cause of that unrest as well.

Orsino didn't want Meredith to anul the entire Circle for the actions ofa few - that's why he confides in Hawke about his suspicions, rather than Meredith. It's also the reason given for why Orsino doesn't tell
anyone about Quentin when he discovers that Quentin was murdering women
for his moronic research.

After years of not cooperating with Meredith this could have been the olive branch he needed. But nope he took it into his own hands while witholding information from the Knight Commander. Then he wants to publicly call her out on her rightful suspicions, which are later proven to be true, and call her crazy to everyone while agreeing with her behind closed doors. I'm sure you'll say "But Meredith wouldn't work with Orsino..." Well we really don't know that because she was never given the chance by him.  And we know why Orsino never told anyone about Quentin. it would be difficult to cover the fact that he was helping him. If Hawke didn't have straw for brains he could turned in that letter Orsino wrote and if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin she could put two and two together and finger him as an accomplice. If I was Orsino and if I was aiding a serial Killer for his research and if I was dumb enough to write him a letter I would hope to be smart enough not to at least tell on myself by ratting him out.

I've also taken the Spirit Healer specialization for my blood mage Hawke. I hope Inquisition accounts for how our protagonist learns particular specializations, rather than me using head canon to explain
how my character has learned the healing arts and the school of blood magic.

I totally agree. I usually go with spirit healer and force mage and it would have be nice to know how Hawke learned these skills. I understand it's all "gameplay stuff" but it is an rpg. I always head canon Hawke learning force mage from his father and spirit healer from some crazy magical mage hermit in the forest like Raghast brown type complete with bird poop hair. Yeah my head canon can get a little crazy.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 25 mai 2013 - 10:46 .

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

@MisterJB You also forget that Chantry and its right hand the seekers have already condemned Templars for going rouge. Right now they are not any different than groups we faced in Kirkwall like the winters or the Coetrie. Rouge Templars match what Sarcastic mage hawke said, They are maniacs with swords who think maker is on their side.

You can defend the chantry or the seekers but your certainly cannot defend rouge Templars. They are mercenaries now and many will act on their own. Killing them is no different than killing a group of mercenaries you stumble upon a road. The poetic thing here is Templars are very much like Anders and Justice. First they were a force to bring Justice now they are nothing but a force of mind washed people who only want Vengeance.

Do you defend apostates? Then why shouldn't I defend rogue templars simply because they are no longer affiliated with the Chantry?
Perhaps I agree with them. Perhaps I believe Justinia is a weak fool who will guide our people back into the chains of a magocracy if continue to be followed and that the mages have been treated with too much trust and compassion.

Templars exist to defend the chantry and the faithful from anything. Mages don't exist to fulfil such role therefore an apostate is so much differnt than a rouge Templar. The cricle is a prison fo mages where as chantry is what created the Templars. Rouge templars are like blood mages not apostates. They are changed and corrupted just like blood mages.

Also without chantry backing them up Templars stand no chance at all if mages really wanted to eradicate them. According to the lore Templars inject lyrium into their blood and gain magic resistance. However blood magic manipulates the very blood injested with lyrium thefore templar talents offers no protection at all against blood magic. Hence blood magic spells both in DAO and DA2 ignore every kind of resistance and always work unless the target has no blood. Against a blood mage a Templar is a normal warrior. Not to mention they can mind control their comrades and wreak chaos in their ranks. They only protection against mind control is litany of Adralla and it can only be made by magic and only works while mind control is hapening after its done however its too late. More info here: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Litany_of_Adralla

The only way for Templars to win against blood mages is out number them 10 to 1. Remember how utterly Templars failed in circle of ferelden. They were wating for reinforcements. But this time when it happens mages will have reinforcements as well and Templars will fail again.

btw you totally ignored the part where I compared Templars to Anders. How there were suppose to bring Justice at first and later became a force of Vengeance themselves.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It wasn't a tangent; it was on point to address that some people would resist the toxic enviornment of the Chantry controlled Circle. Giving the templars the authority to target mages at their leisure for the Rite of Tranquility is too much authority and power, and it's one of the reasons I'm glad the mages have emancipated themselves from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order.

At their leisure? Please. There are plenty of rules regulating the use of the Rite such as it not being an option for mages who completed their Harrowing and how the First Enchanter must aprove of it as well.
Some people will resist the mages and their tendency to either destroy ot control those with no magic.

Templars can nulify ordinary magic with their talents. The same isn't true for blood magic, since it isn't tied to the Fade like ordinary magic is. If you might end up getting tortured, raped, or killed, you might consider using blood magic to defend yourself against templars like Alrik and Kerras. It's a possibility I'm willing to consider, given how horrific the Circle of Kirkwall is.

And your opinions and speculations aren't facts, no matter how much you claim otherwise. You're most certainly welcome to theorize on why those specific Enchanters learned blood magic, but that's all it is at this point.

And after defending yourself, what exactly would you do? Explain to the other templars how you were attacked?

Except you retorted to my line about Anders not condoning blood magic.

And you retorted to Hazegurl's line about how the mage underground was filled with blood mages which it clearly was.

By "blood mages", you mean Quentin, and only Quentin?

Along with himself and every blood mage Hawke encounters in a Pro-Templar run.

To get back to the OP, neither one persuades me to side with Meredith, or even to consider that it's the "right" thing to do. Neither man is justification to butcher hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for being mages, and that's precisely what Meredith does in invoking the Right of Annulment to kill an entire population of people - because that's what she thinks the mob will demand: killing these people simply for being mages.

You are willing to sacrifice the city in the name of the mages, fine. I don't agree with your viewpoint.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Rassler wrote...
Templars exist to defend the chantry and the faithful from anything. Mages don't exist to fulfil such role therefore an apostate is so much differnt than a rouge Templar. The cricle is a prison fo mages where as chantry is what created the Templars. Rouge templars are like blood mages not apostates. They are changed and corrupted just like blood mages.[/quote]
And Templars can defend the Chantry and non mages still. All it means is they are not receiving orders from it anymore.
Just like people claim that apostates are not dangerous just because they are not being watched 24/7.

[quote]Also without chantry backing them up Templars stand no chance at all if mages really wanted to eradicate them. According to the lore Templars inject lyrium into their blood and gain magic resistance. However blood magic manipulates the very blood injested with lyrium thefore templar talents offers no protection at all against blood magic. Hence blood magic spells both in DAO and DA2 ignore every kind of resistance and always work unless the target has no blood. Against a blood mage a Templar is a normal warrior. Not to mention they can mind control their comrades and wreak chaos in their ranks. They only protection against mind control is litany of Adralla and it can only be made by magic and only works while mind control is hapening after its done however its too late. More info here: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Litany_of_Adralla

The only way for Templars to win against blood mages is out number them 10 to 1. Remember how utterly Templars failed in circle of ferelden. They were wating for reinforcements. But this time when it happens mages will have reinforcements as well and Templars will fail again. [/quote]
Wars are a bit more complicated than that. Blood magic is not what is going to decide everything. For instance, mages are severely outnumbered. If they all started using blood magic, all they would accomplish would be turning every Andrastian against them.
And then there such things as supply lines, equipment, money amongst many other factors that will play a role in the war.

btw you totally ignored the part where I compared Templars to Anders. How there were suppose to bring Justice at first and later became a force of Vengeance themselves.

[/quote]

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Tevinter Imperium enslaved the elves of Arlathan, despite many of them being mages. They have attacked societies with free mages. They seem to have a high opinion of being Tevinter, but not necessarily being a mage.[/quote]

If that was true, non-mage Tevinter would have the same rights of mage Tevinters. They don't. It's even part of theric reed that being born with magic means you are favored by the Maker and that gives you the right to rule.
Plus, WoT page 103 clearly states being a mage in Tevinter grants you much prestige and birthing mage children is about all non-mage families can aspire to. [/quote]

While Tevinter still has no problem enslaving mages from other cultures and keeping mages as slaves in their own Imperium, so the idea that being a mage is all that matters in Tevinter doesn't carry much weight.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that I addressed that little emphasis was given to Anders to avoid addressing whether he was alive or dead, as well as the choice made between siding with Meredith or the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall (which is precisely the reason given for why Hawke isn't mentioned at all in Asunder), you would be wrong.[/quote]

And yet you spoke of Hawke not being mentioned in Asunder despite the fact I made no such claim which lead me to believe you had misunderstood me. [/quote]

Because I find it to be for the same reason Anders is given so little acknowledgement in Asunder, especially one that gives no indication whether he is alive or dead. Getting into the nuances of an argument about Anders would likely require an acknowledgement about whether he lived or died, and who the Champion of Kirkwall sided with when Meredith invoked the Right of Annulment.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders thinks that the elves should fight for their rights because of the plight the Alienage elves face living in the slums, and he desires equality between mages and non-mages. I don't see why anyone who follows the model of Tevinter would desire the same things as Anders. He's the anthesis of the Magisters of the Imperium.[/quote]

Oh yeah, he only mentions Tevinter as a viable alternative twice. And supports selling Fenris into slavery. And says that no non-mage will be safe if Kirkwall falls to magic. [/quote]

Anders knows very little about Tevinter, and asks Fenris about the Imperium because he's ignorant about their culture and society. We know he doesn't condone blood magic, so we already have one prime example of how Anders wouldn't function well in Tevinter society. Also, he follows the religious views of the Andrastian Chantry, to the point where he blames the ancient Magisters for corrupting the Golden City when Hawke gives him the Tevinter Amulet, so I doubt he'd follow the teachings of the Imperial Chantry.

Also, he supports selling Fenris into slavery because he hates Fenris. The two men absolutely despise one another. That doesn't change the fact that he expresses that he thinks the elves of the Alienage should rise up alongside the mages to fight for their rights.

Furthermore, Anders doesn't say that no "non-mage" will be safe if the mages of Kirkwall gain autonomy, he says "none of you" to a member of the Chantry of Andraste who will apparently endorse sacking Kirkwall if the mages become independent.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Totally not magister like behavior. [/quote]

Condemning blood magic and wanting equality for mages and non-mages is precisely why it isn't.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

When the templars can kill you for espousing certain points of view? Certainly.[/quote]

There were no templars in that meeting.
And when was the last time templars killed anyone for differing view points, really? [/quote]

There are more than a few examples I can point to where a mage would be killed by a templar for endorsing a specific point of view. Frankly, I can easily see the templars condemning anyone who openly supported Anders as a maleficar and then killing them.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Kirkwall Chantry was destroyed in an explosion of rare ingredients and magic - we know he killed the members of the Andrastian Chantry in that building. Anything else is speculation until one of the developers confirms the facts of the aftermath.

You're welcome to speculate, of course.[/quote]

Not only would the falling debris kill people, Anders directly started the Battle of Kirkwall where many innocents died.
There is no speculation involved. [/quote]

Actually, Meredith started it the moment she ordered an act of genocide against people who were innocent of Anders' actions. And it's speculation until one of the developers provides actual information on whether we have any civilian casualities or not.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, members of an organization that engage in the brutal enslavement of mages; an organization with members who have preached their singular worldview to the people, and can use their religious authority to attack other nations by using religion to target others. Members of a politico-military group that wants to spread to the four corners of the world, even if it means stamping out the religious views of other people, or outright murdering entire towns of people who follow different religious views (as we know from the New Exalted Marches). To put it simply: they aren't civilians. Not in the least.[/quote]

Not only was what you said mostly untrue, the ideologies of a faction does not determine who is or isn't a civillian which is a term with a proper definition.
And if a Brother or Sister who spend their times helping others and take no part in any decision making within the Chantry or Templar Order are, somehow, acceptable target, so are any mages affiliated with the Circle.
After all, they are as much part of the Circle, as Sisters are part of the Chantry. [/quote]

I'm not willing to pretend that members of a religious military are civilians. That's the problem you and I run into with this debate. It's a politico-military organization. The facts are that the Order of Templars is subservient to the Chantry of Andraste, with the Grand Cleric being superior to the Knight-Commander, and the templars served as the soldiers for the Chantry for nearly a thousand years - until the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars broke away with the emancipation of the Circles of Magi.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Against templars who can nulify their powers, and who have absolute authority over them in the name of religion, specifically the Maker? [/quote]

Your tendency to repeat irrelevant information just because you think it sounds strong is annoying.
Religion is irrelevant to the abilities of a mage to defend himself which is, clearly, greater than that of a regular Brother. [/quote]

It isn't irrelevent. You're willing to disingeniously lump the mages together with the members of the Chantry who willingly join the organization, and have degrees of authority, when the mages are vilified by this very organization and live in servitude to the Andrastian Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The men, women, and children of the Circles also aren't the same as people who voluntarily join a religious military order. [/quote]

Irrelevant. They are a part of it, regardless. [/quote]

It isn't irrelevent. The mages aren't given a choice, and live at the mercy of an anti-mage religious organization that can kill them or make them tranquil. The same isn't true for the people who willingly join the Andrastian Chantry, and are part of a religious military organization.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to pretend all you want, but try to stick with what i actually write, instead of trying to find hidden meanings in what I've written. [/quote]

Go blow sand into the eyes of someone else. [/quote]

You should try to discuss what I actually wrote next time, instead of what you imagined to read between the lines.

[MisterJB]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
While Tevinter still has no problem enslaving mages from other cultures and keeping mages as slaves in their own Imperium, so the idea that being a mage is all that matters in Tevinter doesn't carry much weight.[/quote]
And the idea that  a mage slave and a non-mage slave will be treated in the same manner carries even less.

[quote]
Anders knows very little about Tevinter, and asks Fenris about the Imperium because he's ignorant about their culture and society. We know he doesn't condone blood magic, so we already have one prime example of how Anders wouldn't function well in Tevinter society. Also, he follows the religious views of the Andrastian Chantry, to the point where he blames the ancient Magisters for corrupting the Golden City when Hawke gives him the Tevinter Amulet, so I doubt he'd follow the teachings of the Imperial Chantry.

Also, he supports selling Fenris into slavery because he hates Fenris. The two men absolutely despise one another. That doesn't change the fact that he expresses that he thinks the elves of the Alienage should rise up alongside the mages to fight for their rights.[/quote]
Anders being opposed to blood magic doesn't change the fact he talks of Tevinter as a viable alternative to the Circle System and he knew about the culture, he just assumed it couldn't be as bad as the Chantry paints it to be.

So, he wants to use elves as cannon fodder so the mages don't have to stand alone. Upty doo.

Anders supports selling a man into slavery despite hapring so ****ing much about how mages are slaves. He is an hypocrite.

[quote]Furthermore, Anders doesn't say that no "non-mage" will be safe if the mages of Kirkwall gain autonomy, he says "none of you" to a member of the Chantry of Andraste who will apparently endorse sacking Kirkwall if the mages become independent.[/quote]
Or he is speaking to a non-mage over how no non-mage will be safe once his plans come to fruition. Considering that he starts a war inside Kirkwall, I'd say that is the more likely conclusion,.

[quote]
Condemning blood magic and wanting equality for mages and non-mages is precisely why it isn't.[/quote]
He doesn't want equality. He wants mages to be free regardless of how many non-mages have to die or lose their culture (Chantry) in order for that to happen.

[quote]
There are more than a few examples I can point to where a mage would be killed by a templar for endorsing a specific point of view. Frankly, I can easily see the templars condemning anyone who openly supported Anders as a maleficar and then killing them.[/quote]
No "woulds" or "easily see". Give me one concrete example where a mage killed someone simply because s/he endorsed a different view point.

[quote]
Actually, Meredith started it the moment she ordered an act of genocide against people who were innocent of Anders' actions.[/quote]
Anders knew it would happen. That was his intention, start a war. He might as well have called for the Right himself

[quote]And it's speculation until one of the developers provides actual information on whether we have any civilian casualities or not.[/quote]
So, you think falling debris, shockwave, mages fighting on the streets, demons, abominations and Lowtown being on fire would cause no civilian casualties. That's stupid.
But fine, there.


[quote]
I'm not willing to pretend that members of a religious military are civilians. That's the problem you and I run into with this debate. It's a politico-military organization. The facts are that the Order of Templars is subservient to the Chantry of Andraste, with the Grand Cleric being superior to the Knight-Commander, and the templars served as the soldiers for the Chantry for nearly a thousand years - until the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars broke away with the emancipation of the Circles of Magi.[/quote]
The Circle of magic is as much a politico-military organization as the Chantry, just not as powerful. If the Sisters are not civillians for being part of it, then neither is any mage affiliated with the Circle.

[quote]
It isn't irrelevent. You're willing to disingeniously lump the mages together with the members of the Chantry who willingly join the organization, and have degrees of authority, when the mages are vilified by this very organization and live in servitude to the Andrastian Chantry.[/quote]
Unless religion gives you the ability to crap thunderbolts, then it's irrelevant to the matter of any Circle mages being more dangerous than any Brother or Sister of the Chantry.

[quote]
It isn't irrelevent. The mages aren't given a choice, and live at the mercy of an anti-mage religious organization that can kill them or make them tranquil. The same isn't true for the people who willingly join the Andrastian Chantry, and are part of a religious military organization.[/quote]
How they joined is irrelevant. They are a part of it and, therefore, not civillians.

[quote]
You should try to discuss what I actually wrote next time, instead of what you imagined to read between the lines.
[/quote]
I'd suggest you own up for your actions but no mage ever did. I don't know why I should expect anything different from a pro-mage.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It wasn't a tangent; it was on point to address that some people would resist the toxic enviornment of the Chantry controlled Circle. Giving the templars the authority to target mages at their leisure for the Rite of Tranquility is too much authority and power, and it's one of the reasons I'm glad the mages have emancipated themselves from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order.

At their leisure? Please. There are plenty of rules regulating the use of the Rite such as it not being an option for mages who completed their Harrowing and how the First Enchanter must aprove of it as well.
Some people will resist the mages and their tendency to either destroy ot control those with no magic.

It's what Cullen seems to endorse in expanding the Rite of Tranquility, which was the point.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars can nulify ordinary magic with their talents. The same isn't true for blood magic, since it isn't tied to the Fade like ordinary magic is. If you might end up getting tortured, raped, or killed, you might consider using blood magic to defend yourself against templars like Alrik and Kerras. It's a possibility I'm willing to consider, given how horrific the Circle of Kirkwall is.

And your opinions and speculations aren't facts, no matter how much you claim otherwise. You're most certainly welcome to theorize on why those specific Enchanters learned blood magic, but that's all it is at this point.

And after defending yourself, what exactly would you do? Explain to the other templars how you were attacked?

And risk getting tortured or raped by another morally bankrupt templar? No. I'd leave the Circle of Kirkwall by any means necessary.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except you retorted to my line about Anders not condoning blood magic.

And you retorted to Hazegurl's line about how the mage underground was filled with blood mages which it clearly was.

How was it clearly "filled" with blood mages?

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

By "blood mages", you mean Quentin, and only Quentin?

Along with himself and every blood mage Hawke encounters in a Pro-Templar run.

Please, feel free to provide proof that Orsino knowingly shielded those specific mages.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

To get back to the OP, neither one persuades me to side with Meredith, or even to consider that it's the "right" thing to do. Neither man is justification to butcher hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for being mages, and that's precisely what Meredith does in invoking the Right of Annulment to kill an entire population of people - because that's what she thinks the mob will demand: killing these people simply for being mages. 

You are willing to sacrifice the city in the name of the mages, fine. I don't agree with your viewpoint. 

You misunderstand, then. I'm simply not willing to commit genocide against hundreds of innocent people.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's what Cullen seems to endorse in expanding the Rite of Tranquility, which was the point.

Cullen never actually endorsed expanding the Rite. All he says is that there is talk for it being used more broadly. But he acknowledges it is a last resort and that if the templars end up changing that, it will be because the mages forced them to.

And risk getting tortured or raped by another morally bankrupt templar? No. I'd leave the Circle of Kirkwall by any means necessary.

Ah, see? Thus, you acknowledge that you learned blood mage to escape from the Circle, not just to defend yourself.

How was it clearly "filled" with blood mages?

Changing the goalsets? First, you claimed there were no blood mages in the undergound. Now, you just want to prove it wasn't "filled" with them.

Please, feel free to provide proof that Orsino knowingly shielded those specific mages.

I don't believe that his refusal to allow Meredith to search the Gallows for hidden blood mages was a coincidence.
Nor do I believe he is that bad at his job.

You misunderstand, then. I'm simply not willing to commit genocide against hundreds of innocent people.

Thus allowing the Kirkwallers to die so the mages can escape.
Truly, pro-mages must have their cake and eat it as well.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 mai 2013 - 12:07 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While Tevinter still has no problem enslaving mages from other cultures and keeping mages as slaves in their own Imperium, so the idea that being a mage is all that matters in Tevinter doesn't carry much weight.[/quote]

And the idea that  a mage slave and a non-mage slave will be treated in the same manner carries even less. [/quote]

I'm pretty sure they'll be treated as slaves.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders knows very little about Tevinter, and asks Fenris about the Imperium because he's ignorant about their culture and society. We know he doesn't condone blood magic, so we already have one prime example of how Anders wouldn't function well in Tevinter society. Also, he follows the religious views of the Andrastian Chantry, to the point where he blames the ancient Magisters for corrupting the Golden City when Hawke gives him the Tevinter Amulet, so I doubt he'd follow the teachings of the Imperial Chantry.

Also, he supports selling Fenris into slavery because he hates Fenris. The two men absolutely despise one another. That doesn't change the fact that he expresses that he thinks the elves of the Alienage should rise up alongside the mages to fight for their rights.[/quote]

Anders being opposed to blood magic doesn't change the fact he talks of Tevinter as a viable alternative to the Circle System and he knew about the culture, he just assumed it couldn't be as bad as the Chantry paints it to be. [/quote]

Except Anders wants equality between mages and non-mages, which means Tevinter isn't really a viable alternative for him. He continues to echo this sentiment when Aveline argues that he should be imprisoned for what he's done - in regards to the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

So, he wants to use elves as cannon fodder so the mages don't have to stand alone. Upty doo. [/quote]

No. Anders advocates that the elves should fight to get rights, alongside the mages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Anders supports selling a man into slavery despite hapring so ****ing much about how mages are slaves. He is an hypocrite. [/quote]

A man who hates him just as much, and advocates his death when the time comes. Merrill is the only one who is willing to argue in their favor in both scenes, despite how Fenris and Anders have treated her over the years, while both men advocate the condemnation of the other.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, Anders doesn't say that no "non-mage" will be safe if the mages of Kirkwall gain autonomy, he says "none of you" to a member of the Chantry of Andraste who will apparently endorse sacking Kirkwall if the mages become independent. [/quote]

Or he is speaking to a non-mage over how no non-mage will be safe once his plans come to fruition. Considering that he starts a war inside Kirkwall, I'd say that is the more likely conclusion. [/quote]

Except that makes no sense since Anders can romance a non-mage Hawke, and spent years taking care of regular humans in his clinic.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Condemning blood magic and wanting equality for mages and non-mages is precisely why it isn't.[/quote]

He doesn't want equality. He wants mages to be free regardless of how many non-mages have to die or lose their culture (Chantry) in order for that to happen. [/quote]

Anders wants equality between mages and non-mages. He also wants mages to be free, and is willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish that.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are more than a few examples I can point to where a mage would be killed by a templar for endorsing a specific point of view. Frankly, I can easily see the templars condemning anyone who openly supported Anders as a maleficar and then killing them.[/quote]

No "woulds" or "easily see". Give me one concrete example where a mage killed someone simply because s/he endorsed a different view point. [/quote]

A mage? 

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Meredith started it the moment she ordered an act of genocide against people who were innocent of Anders' actions.[/quote]

Anders knew it would happen. That was his intention, start a war. He might as well have called for the Right himself [/quote]

The point is, Anders didn't invoke the Right of Annulment.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And it's speculation until one of the developers provides actual information on whether we have any civilian casualities or not. [/quote]

So, you think falling debris, shockwave, mages fighting on the streets, demons, abominations and Lowtown being on fire would cause no civilian casualties. That's stupid.
But fine, there.


[/quote]

You're moving from the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry to the events that transpired afterward, which involve the templars trying to kill mages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not willing to pretend that members of a religious military are civilians. That's the problem you and I run into with this debate. It's a politico-military organization. The facts are that the Order of Templars is subservient to the Chantry of Andraste, with the Grand Cleric being superior to the Knight-Commander, and the templars served as the soldiers for the Chantry for nearly a thousand years - until the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars broke away with the emancipation of the Circles of Magi.[/quote]

The Circle of magic is as much a politico-military organization as the Chantry, just not as powerful. If the Sisters are not civillians for being part of it, then neither is any mage affiliated with the Circle. [/quote]

True. That's because the mages are slaves.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't irrelevent. You're willing to disingeniously lump the mages together with the members of the Chantry who willingly join the organization, and have degrees of authority, when the mages are vilified by this very organization and live in servitude to the Andrastian Chantry.[/quote]

Unless religion gives you the ability to crap thunderbolts, then it's irrelevant to the matter of any Circle mages being more dangerous than any Brother or Sister of the Chantry. [/quote]

It gives the templars dominion over mages by divine right. And for high ranking members, the authority to order the genocide of mages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't irrelevent. The mages aren't given a choice, and live at the mercy of an anti-mage religious organization that can kill them or make them tranquil. The same isn't true for the people who willingly join the Andrastian Chantry, and are part of a religious military organization.[/quote]

How they joined is irrelevant. They are a part of it and, therefore, not civillians. [/quote]

Because they are slaves of the Andrastian Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You should try to discuss what I actually wrote next time, instead of what you imagined to read between the lines.
[/quote]

I'd suggest you own up for your actions but no mage ever did. I don't know why I should expect anything different from a pro-mage. [/quote]

I'm not inclined to "own up" to your imagination.

[MisterJB]

Typical lobselvith argument.

"Me: A mage is as much part of the Circle as a Sister is of the Chantry.
You: No because they were forced into it.
Me: The way they joined is irrelevant. What matter is that now they are part of it meaning that if they are civillians, so are Sisters of the Chantry.
You: No, because mages are slaves."

100% worthless. Why are you unable to actually focus on what the other party is saying rather than simply repeat the old pro-mage dogma? What happened to pro-mages one could actually have an argument with? This is ridiculous.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Typical lobselvith argument.

"Me: A mage is as much part of the Circle as a Sister is of the Chantry.
You: No because they were forced into it.
Me: The way they joined is irrelevant. What matter is that now they are part of it meaning that if they are civillians, so are Sisters of the Chantry.
You: No, because mages are slaves."

100% worthless. Why are you unable to actually focus on what the other party is saying rather than simply repeat the old pro-mage dogma? What happened to pro-mages one could actually have an argument with? This is ridiculous.

What I find worthless is you expecting people to capitulate to your imagination when you think you know what they wrote better than they do, and your inability to deal with people who don't share your views. Your attempt to derail the other thread because you had to go on a Brother Burkel rant is simply one example. You and I don't have to agree; no one in this thread has to share the opinion of the other. It's really as simple as that, and it's ultimately just a damn game in the end.

As for your examples, I don't think the dichotomy between mages who aren't given a choice in becoming part of the Circle because of the dogma of the religion of the land is comparable to people who willing join the Order of Templars and the Andrastian Chantry. There's a stark difference between the two. I'm not going to apologize for the fact that I don't think your analysis of the two as the same is apt.

I'm also not going to apologize for pointing out that the Andrastian Chantry isn't like a modern day Church, and that it's a religious-military organization that has engaged in deplorable and monstrous behavior in the past, and in modern day Thedas.

Furthermore, you seem to dislike my view of the Chantry controlled Circle. Slavery is precisely the word used by the historical Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and even a pro-mage Hawke in describing the Chantry controlled Circle; it's even language inferred by other people, like the moderate First Enchanter Irving, who talked about the mages being "freed from their shackles" when he discussed the independence of the Circle of Ferelden with the Hero of Ferelden who used his royal boon to try to free his people. It's even language used by writers in-game who talk about mages forced into servitude to the Chantry in their writings.

Perhaps the reason so many people stopped engaging you in discussion here is because there's little point to discussing the matter with you when all they're going to do is disagree with everything you say.

[MisterJB]

Alright, time for a little education. I am likely wasting my time but I am nothing if not persistent. I'm going to go slow for your benefit.

The Circle is as much a political-military organization as the Chantry is. They have leaders who make decisions for the good of their "citizens", they have a presence in the court of whatever country they happen to live in and they are even capable of waging war upon a target if they so wish.
Now, amidst both the Chantry and the Circle, there are low ranked members who are absent from the decision making process of their respective groups.
It is irrelevant to their status of non-combatant how they joined said group. It's relevant only to your personal opinion of each but that is the extent of it. Now, this might come as a shock to you but there is a world beyond Lobselvith8 and in this world, terms such as "civillians" have definitions. Meaning that we can't just alter them because we wish to.

So, regardless of your personal sympathies, the manner upon which a Sister and a Circle Mage joined their respective organization is entirely and 100% irrelevant to their status within it. And the fact is, that they are actually quite similar and that, therefore, if one is a civillian, then so is the other.
You can have all the sympathy in the world for mages and place them above Sisters and Brothers of the Chantry but your personal feelings are irrelevant regarding their status or lack thereof as civillians.
Do you think that a volunteer and a conscript are not both soldiers just because one joined willingly and the other didn't?

So, you can believe whatever you wish about the Circle, I couldn't care less. Keep believing it's slavery all you want but restrict its use in an argument only when it's relevant. And it's irrelevant here.

Oh and speaking of Brother Burkel, all I did was prove that you will condemn people guily by association with the Chantry regardless of how they actually behave. That's probrably why you disliked it so much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You mean Aldenon the moronic.
He can call himself wise all he wants, no one is buying it (except zealous pro-mages).

Slavery? No. The devs said as much. Anders can call it whatever he wants. I can call a cut on my finger a grousome, gushing wound too.

But again, it has long been established that it's pointless to argue with you.

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean Aldenon the moronic.
He can call himself wise all he wants, no one is buying it (except zealous pro-mages).

Slavery? No. The devs said as much. Anders can call it whatever he wants. I can call a cut on my finger a grousome, gushing wound too.

But again, it has long been established that it's pointless to argue with you.

Well if you care so much about what devs say if I remember correctly one of them compared Anders to all Templars and it was a good compariosn. Templars very much like Anders were a force of Justice once. To protect the chantry and faithful. Now again very much like Anders they have become a force of Vengeance by turning rouge from Chantry and turning against every single ethic Templar order stood for.

Now you can support the Templars but they are not so much different than blood mages, at least in my opinion. Good mages and chantry and its seekers are the "forces of good" here. Templars and blood mages on the other hand are the "evil forces" and will likely battle each other to death.

Modifié par Rassler, 26 mai 2013 - 05:07 .

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

Alright, time for a little education. I am likely wasting my time but I am nothing if not persistent. I'm going to go slow for your benefit.

The Circle is as much a political-military organization as the Chantry is. They have leaders who make decisions for the good of their "citizens", they have a presence in the court of whatever country they happen to live in and they are even capable of waging war upon a target if they so wish.....

I find it hilarious that Lob would argue that the Circle is not political or military then turn around and state that the mages voted in a democracy to wage war for their freedom. 

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Alright, time for a little education. I am likely wasting my time but I am nothing if not persistent. I'm going to go slow for your benefit.

Your condescension isn't really going to persuade me. Let's face it, the only people who agree with you are the people who already agreed with you from the very beginning. This discussion isn't going to change anything, and I doubt you feel any differently.

MisterJB wrote...

The Circle is as much a political-military organization as the Chantry is. They have leaders who make decisions for the good of their "citizens", they have a presence in the court of whatever country they happen to live in and they are even capable of waging war upon a target if they so wish.

Irving already addresses this in the Magi Origin, where he admits he makes certain choices as a matter of survival, and that he doesn't really have a choice in the matter. This is also addressed elsewhere in Origins, where the Circles are "technically" supposed to be independent, but the mage protagonist points out that the Circle basically does whatever the Chantry will tell them to do, which isn't contested by Alistair. You're trying to argue that mages - who don't have a legal choice in becoming part of the Chantry controlled Circles - are no different than the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste, which simply isn't true.

MisterJB wrote...

Now, amidst both the Chantry and the Circle, there are low ranked members who are absent from the decision making process of their respective groups.

All that wordplay isn't going to change the fact that the Chantry controlled Circles don't make the Circle mages the same as the Chantry members or the templars. They're subservient to the Templar Order and the Andrastian Chantry, which is why we have characters like the Hero of Ferelden possibly asking for the Circle of Ferelden to become independent, or the focus with Anders and a pro-mage Hawke working to dislodge the templars from having religious and legal power over mages.

MisterJB wrote...

It is irrelevant to their status of non-combatant how they joined said group. It's relevant only to your personal opinion of each but that is the extent of it. Now, this might come as a shock to you but there is a world beyond Lobselvith8 and in this world, terms such as "civillians" have definitions. Meaning that we can't just alter them because we wish to.

Being members of a religious-military organization is the reason they aren't civilians, which has been brought up time and again in threads like this.

MisterJB wrote...

So, regardless of your personal sympathies, the manner upon which a Sister and a Circle Mage joined their respective organization is entirely and 100% irrelevant to their status within it. And the fact is, that they are actually quite similar and that, therefore, if one is a civillian, then so is the other.

They aren't similar.

MisterJB wrote...

You can have all the sympathy in the world for mages and place them above Sisters and Brothers of the Chantry but your personal feelings are irrelevant regarding their status or lack thereof as civillians.
Do you think that a volunteer and a conscript are not both soldiers just because one joined willingly and the other didn't?

Sympathy has nothing to do with it. The Chantry of Andraste has religious authority over mages all across the continent in the Andrastian kingdoms - with the sole exception of Grey Wardens. The Circle mages simply aren't the same as the soldiers of the Templar Order or the members of the Andrastian Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

So, you can believe whatever you wish about the Circle, I couldn't care less. Keep believing it's slavery all you want but restrict its use in an argument only when it's relevant. And it's irrelevant here.

It's addressed as such by multiple characters and authors, as I addressed above. Acting as though it's a point of view limited to me doesn't really help your argument.

MisterJB wrote...

Oh and speaking of Brother Burkel, all I did was prove that you will condemn people guily by association with the Chantry regardless of how they actually behave. That's probrably why you disliked it so much. 

You proved nothing but your inability to keep your composure by trying to turn an elven thread into a debate about the Andrastian Chantry. We already have this thread to debate the Chantry - we don't need to turn every thread into a discussion about our differing points of view. Frankly, I doubt many people care anyway. They've read how we disagree for over a year - I'm sure they're sick and tired of it by now.

Last but not least, I dislike Brother Burkel for who he is, which is an option that even The Warden can voice in the initial discussion with Brother Burkel, and I don't see why you took such issue with it. You're welcome to like the character; I don't have to.