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[Lulupab]

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I reloaded my saves to be sure. Friend Anders will be proud of what he did and a rival Anders will regret it. Blame bioware or whoever you want this is the case.

The real question here is; Lets say its known if Anders kept alive he will work to redeem himself in DA3. Will you keep him alive then?

I have rivaled Anders a lot and I see nothing out of him that truly regrets what he has done. He thinks he is going to be some martyr who will light the way for mages everywhere.  That's not regret to me.

No. Anders is still carrying a demon inside of him. He has proven more than once to endanger the lives of mages and nonmages. He can't control himself and I highly doubt blowing up the Chantry helped. It just proves that he got away with using Hawke and murdering people for his cause. My Hawke has killed people for less crimes than that so I see no reason why Anders should get a free pass.

I don't care about him or his so called redemption. I want a mage with some common sense on my team in DA3 not some fool who allowed a demon/spirit to possess him and became a walking contradiction of himself and the very reason Templars exist in the first place. If Mages and Templars are to come to any sort of compromise then mages like Anders must go.

If Anders and mages like him have to go then many extreme Templars have to go as well. Understand this then we have an agreement otherwise its bias and nothing more.

Maybe you chose the wong dialogue options, I don't know. Rival Anders is convinced Justice has become uncontrolable and tells Hawke it was Vengeance who made him blow up the chantry and expresses regret. Rival Anders is not proud at all and indirectly begs Hawke to kill him for blowing up the chantry. Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

Hazegurl wrote...

What I am saying is that you brought up a point that had nothing to do with our discussion. 

Yes she did turn on the Templars. She knows they can't just allow the magesto incite a rebellion against them. She gives Lambert no reason to believe that this isn't Tevinter all over again. She gives him zero incentive to trust her by enforcing laws slowly to ensure mage freedom peacefully while maintaining Templar power to protect nonmages.  Insteadshe takes the most exterme actions and expect the Templars to mindlessly follow along.

I mentioned it cause as long as extreme Templars exists mages like Anders will exist as well. So it doesn't have to be precisely Anders. Any mage can go vengful and wrong the slaves or others cause of the Templar pressure. These Templars wrong everyone directly and indirectly. (I don't mean all the Templars just the extreme ones)

Btw I'm glad you agree that circles didn't really work and new system had to be introduced. We can disagree on actions of divine but we can both see that the circles and their current system failed long ago.

Modifié par Rassler, 29 mai 2013 - 01:55 .

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...


If Anders and mages like him have to go then many extreme Templars have to go as well. Understand this then we have an agreement otherwise its bias and nothing more.

Of course extreme Templars(rapers and abusers) have to go. But the ranks shouldn't be filled with Templars who will sit idle while Mages take every chance to take away their power.  That is a recipe for another Tevinter.

Maybe you chose the wong dialogue options, I don't know. Rival Anders is convinced Justice has become uncontrolable and tells Hawke it was Vengeance who made him blow up the chantry and expresses regret. Rival Anders is not proud at all and indirectly begs Hawke to kill him for blowing up the chantry. Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

It doesn't matter what dialouge I've chosen, he always expresses regret for blowing up the Chantry but still thinks he did the right thing for mage freedom and martyrdom etc and I don't see how this makes Anders less of a threat or redeemable even if he only expressed regret. He still has the demon inside of him, fused to his soul, a demon he says he can't control. At this point it is out right negligence to allow him to roam free and I see no reason why I should allow Anders to endanger people's lives based solely on his word, which means nothing at all since he's proven to be a liar, or because he is my LI or "friend".

I mentioned it cause as long as extreme Templars exists mages like Anders will exist as well. So it doesn't have to be precisely Anders. Any mage can go vengful and wrong the slaves or others cause of the Templar pressure. These Templars wrong everyone directly and indirectly. (I don't mean all the Templars just the extreme ones)

Btw I'm glad you agree that circles didn't really work and new system had to be introduced. We can disagree on actions of divine but we can both see that the circles and their current system failed long ago.

I disagree, whenever Templars have shown leniency Mages have taken advantage of it which has gotten Templars and civilians killed. Meredith showed leniency in allowing Anders his freedom and look what happened. Thrask showed leniency and look what happened to him. Evangeline joined the mages and almost got killed by one. Templar powers were stripped little by little in Tevinter and now it's a "mage gone wild" paradise. So no, templar pressure is not going to be used as a mage's free pass to destorying lives. 

Right, we both agree that the Circle needs a change, I just disagree with the actions taken to do it by the Divine.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

Not all Templars are evil but certainly many of them have turned away from their so called "duty" long ago. If you actually think DA:I will favor Templars like the way you want them to know that you will be majorly disappointed. The bias here is most amusing. Go order yourself a Templar suit from ebay.

Your every second sentance is basicly accusing peopel of bias, and then trying ot find some security inyour poisiton by grasping at confirmation/reinforcement from someone else - usually unsupported arguments Ad Populum and claims of knowledge of hte direction of DA.

So...yeah.YOUR bias is off the charts here. Not mine.

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Not all Templars are evil but certainly many of them have turned away from their so called "duty" long ago. If you actually think DA:I will favor Templars like the way you want them to know that you will be majorly disappointed. The bias here is most amusing. Go order yourself a Templar suit from ebay.

Your every second sentance is basicly accusing peopel of bias, and then trying ot find some security inyour poisiton by grasping at confirmation/reinforcement from someone else - usually unsupported arguments Ad Populum and claims of knowledge of hte direction of DA.

So...yeah.YOUR bias is off the charts here. Not mine.

Unlike you I don't go around the forum scream all mages have fault and need to die and pretend Templars are angels. I just checked yor activity almost all posts you made is about how noble the Templars are which is not the case and can only be your opinion. Remember its the way you see things, its not the way things are. I accept this and also accept the flaws that sometimes my opinions have and admit them as I already have several times in this very thread. You can't even comperhend the difference between bias and opinion.

[Ryzaki]

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I reloaded my saves to be sure. Friend Anders will be proud of what he did and a rival Anders will regret it. Blame bioware or whoever you want this is the case.

The real question here is; Lets say its known if Anders kept alive he will work to redeem himself in DA3. Will you keep him alive then?

I have rivaled Anders a lot and I see nothing out of him that truly regrets what he has done. He thinks he is going to be some martyr who will light the way for mages everywhere.  That's not regret to me.

No. Anders is still carrying a demon inside of him. He has proven more than once to endanger the lives of mages and nonmages. He can't control himself and I highly doubt blowing up the Chantry helped. It just proves that he got away with using Hawke and murdering people for his cause. My Hawke has killed people for less crimes than that so I see no reason why Anders should get a free pass.

I don't care about him or his so called redemption. I want a mage with some common sense on my team in DA3 not some fool who allowed a demon/spirit to possess him and became a walking contradiction of himself and the very reason Templars exist in the first place. If Mages and Templars are to come to any sort of compromise then mages like Anders must go.

Did you rival him on patch 1.4? Because he does admit he makes mistakes and it's gone far further than it should've (also that he's gonna try to undo whatever he did but we all know how that goes).

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I reloaded my saves to be sure. Friend Anders will be proud of what he did and a rival Anders will regret it. Blame bioware or whoever you want this is the case.

The real question here is; Lets say its known if Anders kept alive he will work to redeem himself in DA3. Will you keep him alive then?

I have rivaled Anders a lot and I see nothing out of him that truly regrets what he has done. He thinks he is going to be some martyr who will light the way for mages everywhere.  That's not regret to me.

No. Anders is still carrying a demon inside of him. He has proven more than once to endanger the lives of mages and nonmages. He can't control himself and I highly doubt blowing up the Chantry helped. It just proves that he got away with using Hawke and murdering people for his cause. My Hawke has killed people for less crimes than that so I see no reason why Anders should get a free pass.

I don't care about him or his so called redemption. I want a mage with some common sense on my team in DA3 not some fool who allowed a demon/spirit to possess him and became a walking contradiction of himself and the very reason Templars exist in the first place. If Mages and Templars are to come to any sort of compromise then mages like Anders must go.

Did you rival him on patch 1.4? Because he does admit he makes mistakes and it's gone far further than it should've (also that he's gonna try to undo whatever he did but we all know how that goes).

I'm not sure, I haven't played it a while so that could be it. Or maybe its because I side with the templars and you only get that dialouge when you are pro mage? I've only gone pro mage once and kept Anders alive. The second time I tried keeping him alive I sided with Templars and he refused so I killed him.

[erilben]

Hazegurl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I reloaded my saves to be sure. Friend Anders will be proud of what he did and a rival Anders will regret it. Blame bioware or whoever you want this is the case.

The real question here is; Lets say its known if Anders kept alive he will work to redeem himself in DA3. Will you keep him alive then?

I have rivaled Anders a lot and I see nothing out of him that truly regrets what he has done. He thinks he is going to be some martyr who will light the way for mages everywhere.  That's not regret to me.

No. Anders is still carrying a demon inside of him. He has proven more than once to endanger the lives of mages and nonmages. He can't control himself and I highly doubt blowing up the Chantry helped. It just proves that he got away with using Hawke and murdering people for his cause. My Hawke has killed people for less crimes than that so I see no reason why Anders should get a free pass.

I don't care about him or his so called redemption. I want a mage with some common sense on my team in DA3 not some fool who allowed a demon/spirit to possess him and became a walking contradiction of himself and the very reason Templars exist in the first place. If Mages and Templars are to come to any sort of compromise then mages like Anders must go.

Did you rival him on patch 1.4? Because he does admit he makes mistakes and it's gone far further than it should've (also that he's gonna try to undo whatever he did but we all know how that goes).

I'm not sure, I haven't played it a while so that could be it. Or maybe its because I side with the templars and you only get that dialouge when you are pro mage? I've only gone pro mage once and kept Anders alive. The second time I tried keeping him alive I sided with Templars and he refused so I killed him.

If you had had successfully completed Anders's rival path, he would have stayed and helped to kill the mages when you sided with the templars.

To fully complete the rivalry path, you need the game patched, and you need to help Anders with everything in his quests. I think that even refusing to distract Elthina messes it up.

[Hazegurl]

Ah, then it could be my refusing to distract Elthina, Cause I get him to 100% rivalry easily but I have never done that quest.

[Lulupab]

Working on Fenris or Anders approval is a joke really. Since 90% of DA2 is about Templars and mages siding with each side grants loads of approval for Fenris and Anders.

Anyway I don't see why would anyone skip a quest. Anders quest like any other quests grants rewards and exp along with insight on story. I totally hated Sebastian but I did all his quests. It was almost a waste of money for me to buy that DLC but since it gave me some insight about Elthina and chantry it was tolerable. Without exiled prince DLC we hardly get to know the grand cleric .

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

Working on Fenris or Anders approval is a joke really. Since 90% of DA2 is about Templars and mages siding with each side grants loads of approval for Fenris and Anders.

Anyway I don't see why would anyone skip a quest.

There Rivalry/Friend system does need some work. It's easy to metagame the outcome you want.

There are plenty of reasons to skip a quest. Boring, don't care about the xp, don't agree with it, didn't get it , or overlooked it. In my case, I knew Anders was lying to me and I simply didn't agree with what he was doing.

[lil yonce]

Right. When he started talking about, "Distract the Grand Cleric and talk to her about mages!" I called him on his lie and told him no. Then snitched to Cullen and Elthina. I disagreed with him the entire game and drew my line in the sand when it came to an obviously nefarious plot he was trying to set in motion.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 mai 2013 - 12:16 .

[Hazegurl]

Right, in my first play through I had befriended Anders cause I was mostly pro mage during my play through but during act 3 I was sick and tired of the mages and tired of Anders. I knew he was lying when I got the quest to gather the ingredients but I had no idea why he really wanted them then when he asked me to help him sneak into the chantry, I put the brakes on that. Then he had the nerve to use that blackmail "you're not my real friend" crap to force my hand, I still turned him down and I disliked his character ever since and have always turned that quest down. It's just proof that Anders cares about no one but himself and killing Templars.

I also snitched on him. lol!! Too bad it didn't work.

[lil yonce]

I was on the rival path and he said don't think I'll ever trust you again, and I was like, "I don't care if you've ever trusted me. I haven't been shy about my Templar support. If I really had it my way, you would've been turned into the Gallows long ago."

I think it could have been interesting to turn him and to the Templars in Act 2 after Justice and find out later he escaped. Maybe encounter him somewhere in Kirkwall where he hints at what he's going to do before running off and the next time you see him would've been at the endgame. I suppose you kinda get that with telling him to leave the party but I've never tried it. I might on this run I'm playing now.

[Hazegurl]

Oh yes! I find it funny that he claims he would never trust Rival Hawke again when rival Hawke has made his/her pro-Templar views known. He's such a manipulative sack. Like Hawke should care about whether or not he trusts him or help him do something dangerous just to prove his friendship to him.

I also agree that it would have been very interesting to turn him in. I would have turned him in when Sebastian was whispering about doing it. It's not like it would have been implausible for him to escape the Gallows and still blow up the Chantry. I would at least feel better knowing I did what I could to stop him.

[lil yonce]

Sadly, there was no option to tell him I didn't care and that we were defintively through. You don't get his Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest anyways so a bigger blow up would've been more to my liking.

Yeah, I would've felt better about having done as much as I could to stop him if the option to turn him in had been available. He's escaped the Circle so many times before its not hard to believe it could have happened again. Escaping and having a letter sent to Hawke's house or left in his things at the Gallows that Cullen relays to you would have been interesting. I too wish Sebastian and Fenris would've tried turning him in, especially if they had come along on the quest Justice in Act 2.

One playthrough during Best Served Cold, Anders was the companion kidnapped. I didn't have a romance that run, Bethany died in the deep roads, and he had the highest friendship/rivalry score. When they said they took him I was thinking, "You can keep him! Don't bring him back. Take him to the Gallows with you when you clean up on the Wounded Coast. Imma act like we ain't eem talk to you. Have a good day!"

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Sadly, there was no option to tell him I didn't care and that we were defintively through. You don't get his Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest anyways so a bigger blow up would've been more to my liking.

Yeah, I would've felt better about having done as much as I could to stop him if the option to turn him in had been available. He's escaped the Circle so many times before its not hard to believe it could have happened again. Escaping and having a letter sent to Hawke's house or left in his things at the Gallows that Cullen relays to you would have been interesting. I too wish Sebastian and Fenris would've tried turning him in, especially if they had come along on the quest Justice in Act 2.

One playthrough during Best Served Cold, Anders was the companion kidnapped. I didn't have a romance that run, Bethany died in the deep roads, and he had the highest friendship/rivalry score. When they said they took him I was thinking, "You can keep him! Don't bring him back. Take him to the Gallows with you when you clean up on the Wounded Coast. Imma act like we ain't eem talk to you. Have a good day!"

I know, it sucks that I couldn't just turn around and say "Let's all turn him in! I don't care, done with him."
LMAO!! If that dialouge option existed during Best served Cold I would friend Anders just to get it! I would hang out at the Hanged Man with everyone and play cards that day.

[Ryzaki]

Hazegurl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I reloaded my saves to be sure. Friend Anders will be proud of what he did and a rival Anders will regret it. Blame bioware or whoever you want this is the case.

The real question here is; Lets say its known if Anders kept alive he will work to redeem himself in DA3. Will you keep him alive then?

I have rivaled Anders a lot and I see nothing out of him that truly regrets what he has done. He thinks he is going to be some martyr who will light the way for mages everywhere.  That's not regret to me.

No. Anders is still carrying a demon inside of him. He has proven more than once to endanger the lives of mages and nonmages. He can't control himself and I highly doubt blowing up the Chantry helped. It just proves that he got away with using Hawke and murdering people for his cause. My Hawke has killed people for less crimes than that so I see no reason why Anders should get a free pass.

I don't care about him or his so called redemption. I want a mage with some common sense on my team in DA3 not some fool who allowed a demon/spirit to possess him and became a walking contradiction of himself and the very reason Templars exist in the first place. If Mages and Templars are to come to any sort of compromise then mages like Anders must go.

Did you rival him on patch 1.4? Because he does admit he makes mistakes and it's gone far further than it should've (also that he's gonna try to undo whatever he did but we all know how that goes).

I'm not sure, I haven't played it a while so that could be it. Or maybe its because I side with the templars and you only get that dialouge when you are pro mage? I've only gone pro mage once and kept Anders alive. The second time I tried keeping him alive I sided with Templars and he refused so I killed him.

What the person below you says. You have to do all his quests (including Justice) and afterwards he says he'll try to make amends (right after Justice throws a hissy fit).

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rassler wrote...
 Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

[Lulupab]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...
 Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

Punishment =/= Justice.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rassler wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...
 Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

Punishment =/= Justice.

That is entirely dependent on the situation.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 30 mai 2013 - 09:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

Unlike you I don't go around the forum scream all mages have fault and need to die and pretend Templars are angels. I just checked yor activity almost all posts you made is about how noble the Templars are which is not the case and can only be your opinion. Remember its the way you see things, its not the way things are. I accept this and also accept the flaws that sometimes my opinions have and admit them as I already have several times in this very thread. You can't even comperhend the difference between bias and opinion.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You are a zealos, fantaical mage suporter who wants nothing more than to convince everyone mages are saints and all templars are evil and must be purged. You are even campaiging for a singular"templars evil" DA:I plotline.

So you are the last person on the planet to speak up.

And no, you are also wrong on the first bit.
I never claimed templars are angels and all mages need to die. I do state that the mages are whiners that are demanding too much too soon and that templars are needed.


As for the underlined, I have yet to see you do that....

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Unlike you I don't go around the forum scream all mages have fault and need to die and pretend Templars are angels. I just checked yor activity almost all posts you made is about how noble the Templars are which is not the case and can only be your opinion. Remember its the way you see things, its not the way things are. I accept this and also accept the flaws that sometimes my opinions have and admit them as I already have several times in this very thread. You can't even comperhend the difference between bias and opinion.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You are a zealos, fantaical mage suporter who wants nothing more than to convince everyone mages are saints and all templars are evil and must be purged. You are even campaiging for a singular"templars evil" DA:I plotline.

So you are the last person on the planet to speak up.

And no, you are also wrong on the first bit.
I never claimed templars are angels and all mages need to die. I do state that the mages are whiners that are demanding too much too soon and that templars are needed.


As for the underlined, I have yet to see you do that....

You simply need to read the thread then. I can't argue with someone who haven't even read what I said I admitted to what wrongs Anders did several times along with wrong of all mages but the Templar wrongs are just as same if not more. You think all mages are whiners etc etc etc the all here tells me a lot about you. I'm going to ignore your comments on this site from now on, feel free to do the same cause if yo quote me and tell me something be sure that it won't be read by me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Happy days!

I can't argue with someone who walks around with blinders on and sees nothing but what he wants to see.
Not all circles are like Kirkwall, and even in Kirkwall there were many good templars. The Ferelden Circle proves that Circles can and do work. That you hold templars to unreachable and unreasonable standards is your problem.

Feel free to pull things out of context and spread lies about me. It's about all you can do at this point.

[lil yonce]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

Yeah, an eye for an eye. And IMO you also can't allow someone as dangerous as Anders to live. And his death provides a deterrent to others who would think to follow his path.

I like this quote from Jennifer Hepler: http://social.biowar...6402250#6480722

Whether you love Anders or hate him, I'm thrilled that he's had such a deep impact on so many of you. When we started writing, I said that I would claim victory if I got even one player to change their preconceived ideas of who to side with based on the actions Anders and Meredith take. It sounds like we've achieved that. People tend to think of being devoted to a cause as a noble and heroic thing, but it's actually pretty frightening if you think about what it means to have an abstract ideal which means more to someone than their own or anyone else's life.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 mai 2013 - 01:21 .

[Lulupab]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

Yeah, an eye for an eye. And IMO you also can't allow someone as dangerous as Anders to live. And his death provides a deterrent to others who would think to follow his path.

I like this quote from Jennifer Hepler: http://social.biowar...6402250#6480722

Whether you love Anders or hate him, I'm thrilled that he's had such a deep impact on so many of you. When we started writing, I said that I would claim victory if I got even one player to change their preconceived ideas of who to side with based on the actions Anders and Meredith take. It sounds like we've achieved that. People tend to think of being devoted to a cause as a noble and heroic thing, but it's actually pretty frightening if you think about what it means to have an abstract ideal which means more to someone than their own or anyone else's life.

I am more than agreeing with the bolded part. I never claimed otherwise. As quoted my claim was "death is never Justice". Anders is a maryr to many mages, nothing is certain about DA:I yet but we all know he is a martyr in eye of many mages. He himself knew he would have to die for destroying chantry and doesn't run away to continue taking such actions and accepts death if Hawke is willing to kill him. Ironically one of his unique spells in his specific tree is called Martyr.

Anyway to my point. Imagine after Anders death some mages see Anders as a symbol, defier of Templars etc... and continue his path. Whether these mages succeed or not is not relevant but in both cases if they succeed there will be more death if they fail there will be more death again. so What if Anders was alive and willing to repent which is possible(as we discussed earlier) and told these mages to stop? Don't you think the role he could play is too significant to let go? I'm not saying exactly this scenario is going to happen but it could. Knowing this is death Justice without being Vengeance in the same time?