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[lil yonce]

Rassler wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Death is never justice, even Anders can be made to see that but you can't?

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

There are certain crimes, certain transgressions that are so terrible that death is an acceptable punishment.

Yeah, an eye for an eye. And IMO you also can't allow someone as dangerous as Anders to live. And his death provides a deterrent to others who would think to follow his path.

I like this quote from Jennifer Hepler: http://social.biowar...6402250#6480722

Whether you love Anders or hate him, I'm thrilled that he's had such a deep impact on so many of you. When we started writing, I said that I would claim victory if I got even one player to change their preconceived ideas of who to side with based on the actions Anders and Meredith take. It sounds like we've achieved that. People tend to think of being devoted to a cause as a noble and heroic thing, but it's actually pretty frightening if you think about what it means to have an abstract ideal which means more to someone than their own or anyone else's life.

I am more than agreeing with the bolded part. I never claimed otherwise. As quoted my claim was "death is never Justice". Anders is a maryr to many mages, nothing is certain about DA:I yet but we all know he is a martyr in eye of many mages. He himself knew he would have to die for destroying chantry and doesn't run away to continue taking such actions and accepts death if Hawke is willing to kill him. Ironically one of his unique spells in his specific tree is called Martyr.

Anyway to my point. Imagine after Anders death some mages see Anders as a symbol, defier of Templars etc... and continue his path. Whether these mages succeed or not is not relevant but in both cases if they succeed there will be more death if they fail there will be more death again. so What if Anders was alive and willing to repent which is possible(as we discussed earlier) and told these mages to stop? Don't you think the role he could play is too significant to let go? I'm not saying exactly this scenario is going to happen but it could. Knowing this is death Justice without being Vengeance in the same time?

Anders by choice became an abomination and exerts less and less control over Justice as time goes on, and his actions resulted in the death of hundreds, if not thousands, of people. That cannot go unpunished. He has proven himself unstable and dangerous. All death is terrible and unfortunate in the larger scheme but situationally it is a necessary justice IMO. The fact that he accepts death as a punishment demonstrates he understands the magnitude of the offense he committed.

Those mages would likely see Anders as a symbol regardless and IMO he cannot be a symbol of the Magi or truly help their cause when he is the very thing Templars fear. He's walking contradiction. Why would telling them not to kill hundreds for their cause matter? He did-- and he is still alive and free. No punishment suffered. And I never want to lose Sebastian-- I certainly won't do so for Anders.

And quite plainly, I dislike DA2 Anders. He was a tick on my a** all game and by the end it was about time for that SOB to be handled for once and for all.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 mai 2013 - 03:15 .

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Those mages would likely see Anders as a symbol regardless and IMO he cannot be a symbol of the Magi or truly help their cause when he is the very thing Templars fear. He's walking contradiction. Why would telling them not to kill hundreds for their cause matter? He did-- and he is still alive and free. No punishment suffered. And I never want to lose Sebastian-- I certainly won't do so for Anders.

Therein lies the reasons why Anders needs to die imo.

1. People need to learn that terrorist acts will get them nowhere. Otherwise people will be blowing up everything just to get whatever they want.
2. How can Anders redeem himself when he has a demon inside of him that he admits he can't control? It's not like he can get rid of Justice.
3. Who cares about whether or not Anders changes his mind? His unpunished life just proves that it is possible to wage war, murder innocents and walk away free and unscatched.
4. It's hypocritial to pass judgement on Templars for killing innocent mages while giving a free pass to a murderer yourself. Shouldn't they all be judged and treated equally if you believe people who murder innocents should die?
5. How can peace be achieved when you have abominations in your group?
6. Sebastian is a much more valuable resource than Anders. If push comes to shove he can reclaim his birthright and army and I would much rather be in a position of using it than fighting it. The last thing I want is an army marching on Kirkwall just to keep alive an abomination who has endangered people's lives throughout this game.

Bottom line. I see no reason why Anders' life is so important it is worth hindering possible peace between the Templars, Mages, and non mages and how it is worth fighting a possible military invasion just to preserve.

[Lulupab]

Those are valid points and opinions but refrain from calling Justice a demon. Its not confirmed anywhere and Justice is still a spirit. As I said nothing is certain yet.

Justice leaves body of Kristoff willingly, we have been also told that when a possession happens willingly which was the case with Anders it can be undone without killing the host and spirits are not as stubborn as demons in such situations. Or maybe Justice can be transformed back to his old self and not be so vengeful anymore. There are millions of possibilities. We spared Connor who literally committed a genocide at behest of a demon, just because Anders seems to have more control than Connor doesn't mean he actually had more control. Spirit possessions are "prettier" than demonic ones. Anders destroyed chantry cause Justice made him and there were much lesser people in chantry than village of Redcliff.

Also in one of the threads in general discussions of DA3 David Gaider hinted that there will be replacement characters if we import saves. I thought about it for a while and they only real valid character for this is Anders since the player is given an important choice like an ultimatum between killing or keeping Anders alive. I personally can't wait to see what happens to Anders if kept alive.

[Hazegurl]

I can call him a demon cause that's just what he is. What is a demon? A spirit. I don't need BioWare to confirm that. Running loose and almost killing a mage or killing her if the player doesn't pick the right dialogue option. Blowing up buildings. Possessing bodies. Hm, yep that's a demon all right.

And "we" did not spare Connor. Players can do with him whatever they want. You can spare him, pretend to spare him so that he can be possessed later, or kill him. I have done all three and my canon is killing him. If a character allows themselves to be possessed and kill innocent people, I don't care if it's 5 or 100 people, if the game allows me to put them down I will. It's not just mages. I killed Varric's brother and I gladly killed Meredith when she lost it (but of course I wasn't given a choice there, if I was given a choice I would have killed her anyway).

That's great for you if Anders come back in your game. I hope you enjoy that if it comes true. But I killed Anders off cause I don't care about him or his story possibilities. I'd rather he stay in the past.

[Ryzaki]

To be fair Conner hardly knew what he was doing. (which frankly was Isolde's doing which is why I let Jowan do the blood ritual so she kicks the bucket and save Conner). He's not Jowan who should've known better to do what he did.

That and Conner actually takes some responsibility for his actions. Don't wanna kill one of the only sane sensible mages in Thedas that admits to screwing up and doesn't play the "it's not my fault!!!" game.

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

And "we" did not spare Connor. Players can do with him whatever they want. You can spare him, pretend to spare him so that he can be possessed later, or kill him. I have done all three and my canon is killing him. If a character allows themselves to be possessed and kill innocent people, I don't care if it's 5 or 100 people, if the game allows me to put them down I will. It's not just mages. I killed Varric's brother and I gladly killed Meredith when she lost it (but of course I wasn't given a choice there, if I was given a choice I would have killed her anyway).

+1. Connor dies in my canon playthrough of Origins. My Warden didn't trust Jowan's ritual or his ability to perform it and the Circle was too far away.

That's great for you if Anders come back in your game. I hope you enjoy that if it comes true. But I killed Anders off cause I don't care about him or his story possibilities. I'd rather he stay in the past.

Co-signed.

[Lazy Jer]

Wow...this thread's still going? Since we're (surprise surprise) on the subject of Anders I'll weigh in. Anders had to die. The Chantry explosion wasn't the only reason, but it was a big one. He not only killed innocent people (Chantry sisters, any worshipers anywhere near the place) he also caused an explosion that was likely responsible for the entire city being set on fire. It was a big extreme action that put the mages and non-mage citizens alike at risk. What's more it was HIS decision. He confesses at the end that Justice and he are one.

Killing Ella, or almost killing her, was bad enough, but you could argue that it wasn't his choice. The Chantry was. Awakenings Anders might not have done that but DA2 Anders did and the very question of whether to defend that mages or help annul the circle was a direct result of those actions. What's more he knew that. He knew that "forcing the mages to stand up for themselves" would end in death of many of those mages and that young children in the circle would be put at risk because of it. He either didn't care, or he felt it was "for the greater good." Either way, how much more risking of other people's lives would he have to go through because of his cause?

I still see Meredith and Anders as two sides of the same coin. I don't support her, and I dang sure don't support him.

In regards to Conner, it's a different scenario. Conner WASN'T in control, the demon was. Anders chose to blow up the Chantry.

[Lulupab]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Wow...this thread's still going? Since we're (surprise surprise) on the subject of Anders I'll weigh in. Anders had to die. The Chantry explosion wasn't the only reason, but it was a big one. He not only killed innocent people (Chantry sisters, any worshipers anywhere near the place) he also caused an explosion that was likely responsible for the entire city being set on fire. It was a big extreme action that put the mages and non-mage citizens alike at risk. What's more it was HIS decision. He confesses at the end that Justice and he are one.

Killing Ella, or almost killing her, was bad enough, but you could argue that it wasn't his choice. The Chantry was. Awakenings Anders might not have done that but DA2 Anders did and the very question of whether to defend that mages or help annul the circle was a direct result of those actions. What's more he knew that. He knew that "forcing the mages to stand up for themselves" would end in death of many of those mages and that young children in the circle would be put at risk because of it. He either didn't care, or he felt it was "for the greater good." Either way, how much more risking of other people's lives would he have to go through because of his cause?

I still see Meredith and Anders as two sides of the same coin. I don't support her, and I dang sure don't support him.

In regards to Conner, it's a different scenario. Conner WASN'T in control, the demon was. Anders chose to blow up the Chantry.

I respect your opinion but you lack some information here. Anders with full friendship thinks he and justice are one whereas a rival Anders thinks justice MADE him blow up the chantry. Feel free to blame bioware but this is the case. We can assume the support that Anders gets from Hawke aka friendship makes him think he is on right path and doen't see Justice as a threat and embraces him but rival Anders having no support from anyone thinks He has become an abomination like any other abomination just prettier and more in control but not enough to have full control.

So Justice probably made Anders blow up the chantry but its up to Anders himself and Hawke's supports to make Anders acknowledge it in different ways.

Modifié par Rassler, 31 mai 2013 - 10:53 .

[Lazy Jer]

Rassler wrote...
I respect your opinion but you lack some information here. Anders with full friendship thinks he and justice are one whereas a rival Anders thinks justice MADE him blow up the chantry. Feel free to blame bioware but this is the case. We can assume the support that Anders gets from Hawke aka friendship makes him think he is on right path and doen't see Justice as a threat and embraces him but rival Anders having no support from anyone thinks He has become an abomination like any other abomination just prettier and more in control but not enough to have full control.

So Justice probably made Anders blow up the chantry but its up to Anders himself and Hawke's supports to make Anders acknowledge it in different ways.

Well be that as it may, he's still dangerous.  If he has full friendship he's dangerous for the reasons I outlined.  If he's rivaled he's dangerous because he has a spirit in his head that makes him do mean things to buildings.  Sometimes those building have people inside. 

I understand that a lot of people feel that Anders did a noble thing and his intentions were to build a better life for an oppressed people, but...well again he really didn't care how many people died on either side for that better life to be built.  His methodology would inevitably lead to a rift between mages and non-mages that would be impossible to bridge.

[Lavaeolus]

Lazy Jer wrote...

If he's rivaled he's dangerous because he has a spirit in his head that makes him do mean things to buildings.

If he's rivaled and you go pro-templar, he plans on killing himself to control Vengeance. Danger solved!

[lil yonce]

In many ways I think Adrian is worse than Anders-- and that is quite the accomplishment. She has a tincture of fanaticism. Too earnest in her pursuit of justice and liberty. Crafty. Unscrupulous in politics. And is not very mindful of the truth. In short she is a contemptible hypocrite-- and her actions have a more profound effect on the beginnings of the mage-templar war.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 juin 2013 - 01:26 .

[MisterJB]

Adrian is an unresonable, hate filled, warmongering, cowardly, manipulative extremist who revels in her perceived superiority and believes the best way to dispell fear and suspicion is to flash fire in the face of mundanes. She is an example of the worst mages can give to Thedas.
At least Anders had enough conscience to feel sadness and regret over his monstruous deeds and owned up to them. Adrian doesn't give a sh*t, she has no conscience whatsoever and is incapable of acknowleding the consequences of her actions.
David Gaider protrayed her as a villain in the book and while I am certain the Inquisitor will have opportunities to sympathize with the mages, chances are Adrian will be an antagonist.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Adrian is an unresonable, hate filled, warmongering, cowardly, manipulative extremist who revels in her perceived superiority and believes the best way to dispell fear and suspicion is to flash fire in the face of mundanes. She is an example of the worst mages can give to Thedas.
At least Anders had enough conscience to feel sadness and regret over his monstruous deeds and owned up to them. Adrian doesn't give a sh*t, she has no conscience whatsoever and is incapable of acknowleding the consequences of her actions.
David Gaider protrayed her as a villain in the book and while I am certain the Inquisitor will have opportunities to sympathize with the mages, chances are Adrian will be an antagonist.

I understand why you feel that way and all but Anders only did one "monsteuous" deed and that was blowing up the chantry I dont understand the deedS here. Before that he did nothing but fight for a just cause the way he has been fought. Also don't forget that we are talking about 2 personalitis here, Anders was not alone doing those.

Adrian is a monster and pretty much crazy and unlike Anders no spirit forced the issue.

Modifié par Rassler, 04 juin 2013 - 07:14 .

[MisterJB]

I do not see it as a just cause and, therefore, believe many of Anders' actions, such as communing with a spirit and helping mages leave the Circle, to be monstruous deeds.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

I do not see it as a just cause and, therefore, believe many of Anders' actions, such as communing with a spirit and helping mages leave the Circle, to be monstruous deeds.

Well its opinion based anyway but at least to eyes of many Anders actions before destroying the chantry are just cause. But destroying the chantry is not a good deed and its a fact not opinion.

[Grunk]

I think Anders did the right thing. Except for the idiotic "lol sure I'll take a spirit into my body."

I don't want to draw this comparison, but it reminds me of when I was teaching Kyle Baker's Nat Turner to a class, and they were shocked and appalled that the revolting slaves slaughtered massa's children. In the view of the slaves, of course they would; all of massa's family are culpable for slavery, either through perpetuating it's institution or enjoying it's benefits. In a more modern take, racism is more than just being mean to people based on physical and ethnic differences, but also a culture of prejudice and privilege along with the systems that perpetuate those things and rewards the people who are of the "correct" ethnicity (in the west, that'd be white folks). So looking at it in that light, in a world that encourages the abuse, slander, and mistreatment of mages, basically treating them like kenneled dogs to be unleashed when the Chantry deems it handy and destroying families, Anders targeted exactly who he ought to.

Of course, the monkey wrench (and the reason I am extremely unwilling to draw any real life parallel, other than the fact that it cheapens the painful experiences the oppressed must face by comparing it to high fantasy fiction) is that mages can contract with demons and control your mind with blood rituals. In light of that, while I agree with Anders conceptually, there's gotta be some policing of mages because they can mind control you and you wouldn't even know it. The treatment of mages in Kirkwall is abominable, but the fact that there are folks walking around who can probably draw all the blood from your body then raise your corpse to do their bidding means some institutional policing has got to exist.

Anders goes too far on the issue in terms of end goals, but something has to change.