615 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?

I'm the champion of ALL of Kirkwall. The templars are producing the problem by attacking its citizens, just like the qunari. They will die, just like the qunari. I will not attack those who are defending themselves.

If there are mages who wish to stay in the city after the fighting is over, against my advice, on their own head be it. The others, I'll lead to safety.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 avril 2013 - 03:34 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm the champion of ALL of Kirkwall. The templars are producing the problem by attacking its citizens, just like the qunari. They will die, just like the qunari. I will not attack those who are defending themselves.

Given the higher number of templars, the problem is solved much more quickly and cleanly by killing the mages instead. More lives are saved that way.
Sometimes, sacrifices are needed for the greater good. This time, those sacrifices are the mages.

If there are mages who wish to stay in the city after the fighting is over, against my advice, on their own head be it. 

That would only create more social tensions which would lead to more lives being lost as I expanded upon in the OP.

The others, I'll lead to safety.

Abandoning Kirkwall after its worst night in living memory. Nice job, "Champion".

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 02:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Given the higher number of templars, the problem is solved much more quickly and cleanly by killing the mages instead. More lives are saved that way.
Sometimes, sacrifices are needed for the greater good. This time, those sacrifices are the mages.

I'm not counting the templars, as they're the aggressors. The major issue is the sudden demon attacks, which are being handled by the city guard, as well as myself (having killed plenty of demons). And by breaking the back of the templars quickly and giving the mages a way out, I give less cause for them to need to cut loose with their power.

That would only create more social tensions which would lead to more lives being lost as I expanded upon in the OP.

Irrelevant. That's the doing of others, not myself, and I will not kill anyone solely for what they might do. It may not even happen.

Abandoning Kirkwall after its worst night in living memory. Nice job, "Champion".

If the city will defend its own citizens against the foreign invasion coming from the Templar Order, then yes, I will stay. But neither of us seems to think that's likely to happen, and if it doesn't, then I will focus my protection on the ones who haven't rejected it.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm not counting the templars, as they're the aggressors. The major issue is the sudden demon attacks, which are being handled by the city guard, as well as myself (having killed plenty of demons). And by breaking the back of the templars quickly and giving the mages a way out, I give less cause for them to need to cut loose with their power.

Even if you don't count the templars, it's obvious that siding with the mages will lead to more civillians casualties. The mages are simultaneously the lesser numbered fighting force and the one most prone to collateral damage. Every mage killed brings the battle closer to an end; which is not the case with the templars who can't really be defeated, only slowed down which extends the fighting; and it's one less shooting fireballs, summoning demons and becoming possessed.

Irrelevant. That's the doing of others, not myself, and I will not kill anyone solely for what they might do. It may not even happen.

Relevant. Actions don't happen in a vaccum and you can't pretend Hawke's won't have consequences. Especially when it's as easily predictable as tremendous social upvheal given free mages after a night of magical terrorism and war.

If the city will defend its own citizens against the foreign invasion coming from the Templar Order, then yes, I will stay. But neither of us seems to think that's likely to happen, and if it doesn't, then I will focus my protection on the ones who haven't rejected it.

Kirkwall never rejected its Champion. A Hawke who sides with the mages is simply unwilling to fulffil his/her duty, choosing instead to help the mages at the expense of the kirkwallers. Both by supporting the people destroying Kirkwall and then by abandoning it.
Besides, the mages are not citizens of Kirkwall. They fall under the jusridiction of the Chantry, an international organization, not the Viscount.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 04:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Even if you don't count the templars, it's obvious that siding with the mages will lead to more civillians casualties. The mages are simultaneously the lesser numbered fighting force and the one most prone to collateral damage. Every mage killed brings the battle closer to an end; which is not the case with the templars who can't really be defeated, only slowed down which extends the fighting; and it's one less shooting fireballs, summoning demons and becoming possessed.

It's not obvious at all. The less pressure on the mages, the fewer civilian casualties, and once the templars are beaten, all casualties from mages would stop altogether.

Relevant. Actions don't happen in a vaccum and you can't pretend Hawke's won't have consequences. Especially when it's as easily predictable as tremendous social upvheal given free mages after a night of magical terrorism and war.

Given that what I need to do here is protect civilians from mass murderers, sorting out the doings of individual civilians is something I can do after the fighting's over; ultimately, it's irrelevant to the choice of battle plan.

Kirkwall never rejected its Champion. A Hawke who sides with the mages is simply unwilling to fulffil his/her duty, choosing instead to help the mages at the expense of the kirkwallers. Both by supporting the people destroying Kirkwall and then by abandoning it.

The templars are destroying it by launching their attack; all the mages do is defend themselves. And if they really prefer the templars, let them have them; I consider it their decision.

Besides, the mages are not citizens of Kirkwall. They fall under the jusridiction of the Chantry, an international organization, not the Viscount.

They're people, they're here, and they're under attack. That's all I need.

And if I must abandon my title to do what's right, then it's an acceptable sacrifice. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, given the way Cassandra and Varric speak.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 avril 2013 - 04:41 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not obvious at all. The less pressure on the mages, the fewer civilian casualties, and once the templars are beaten, all casualties from mages would stop altogether.

Reducing pressure on the mages would simply lead to them striking back with a vengeance which means even more power. Beating the templars would mean the mages would become the most powerful fighting force on the city and in a perfect position to take it over.
What is needed is someone who can kill them quickly before they can release truly destructive magic. Like Hawke.

Given that what I need to do here is protect civilians from mass murderers, sorting out the doings of individual civilians is something I can do after the fighting's over; ultimately, it's irrelevant to the choice of battle plan.

Protect the mages at the expense of the kirkwallers you mean.

The templars are destroying it by launching their attack; all the mages do is defend themselves. And if they really prefer the templars, let them have them; I consider it their decision.

The templars are not the one summoning fire and demons, turning to abominations, etc.
And you think it's odd people would prefer them over the mages.

They're people, they're here, and they're under attack. That's all I need.

A good thing not all of us can be as simplistic.

And if I must abandon my title to do what's right, then it's an acceptable sacrifice. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, given the way Cassandra and Varric speak.

You're not sacrificing Hawke's title. You're sacrificing Kirkwall, a city full of innocent people, to protect the mages. You're sacrificing the many to protect the few and that is not what is right.

[Xilizhra]

Reducing pressure on the mages would simply lead to them striking back with a vengeance which means even more power. Beating the templars would mean the mages would become the most powerful fighting force on the city and in a perfect position to take it over.

I'm the spearhead against the templars and inflicting the vast majority of casualties on them. In any case, there was never any prospect of defeating the entire Order, it's far too numerous. The idea is to kill enough of them that the mages can escape; there's no reason to try taking over the city.

Protect the mages at the expense of the kirkwallers you mean.

Protect the mages at the expense of templars. Once that's finished, then I'll sort out future issues involving nonmage Kirkwallers.

The templars are not the one summoning fire and demons, turning to abominations, etc.
And you think it's odd people would prefer them over the mages.

Only one that we see becomes an abomination, the rest come through the Fade, along with all the other demons. In any case, I never saw any other mages summoning fire except in the Gallows (probably because they don't need to, given that I'm the one cutting through the templars).

A good thing not all of us can be as simplistic.

Sometimes things are black and white.

You're not sacrificing Hawke's title. You're sacrificing Kirkwall, a city full of innocent people, to protect the mages. You're sacrificing the many to protect the few and that is not what is right.

I'm not sacrificing anyone except templars. I'm undertaking the action that will lead to the fewest civilian casualties, from both mages and nonmages (and if more nonmage civilians somehow die than would otherwise, but the total number of nontemplar deaths is lower because the mages survive, that's numerically satisfactory). The city will endure, the nonmage civilians are under protection, and I'll lead the mages out of the city thereafter. It won't all be well, but the templars who instigated it will be stung and have taken heavy casualties, and their tyranny will have, at the last, failed.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Protect the mages at the expense of templars. Once that's finished, then I'll sort out future issues involving nonmage Kirkwallers.

Given that you have already shown zero regards for their safety, I'm not convinced.
Plus, Hawke would ever be able to prevent the city from collapsing on itself if the mages won. Civil war, Exalthed Marche, take your pick.

Only one that we see becomes an abomination, the rest come through the Fade, along with all the other demons. In any case, I never saw any other mages summoning fire except in the Gallows (probably because they don't need to, given that I'm the one cutting through the templars).

We see plenty of Abominations which consist of a possessed mage. Given the fact all demons want is to be in Thedas, it's illogical for them to return to the Fade after winning their flesh suits.
While we only see a mage being possessed, we don't need to. We know the city is infested with demons during this battle. Mages have an hard time defending against demons in the best of times; in a battlefield, many would be possessed. Willingly or not.
Also, did you miss the part where the city is on fire? That is collateral damage from the mages fighting on the streets.

Sometimes things are black and white.

This is not.
What if David Gaider came here and said that killing the mages saves more lives than assisting them does even without counting the templars?

I'm not sacrificing anyone except templars. I'm undertaking the action that will lead to the fewest civilian casualties, from both mages and nonmages (and if more nonmage civilians somehow die than would otherwise, but the total number of nontemplar deaths is lower because the mages survive, that's numerically satisfactory). The city will endure, the nonmage civilians are under protection, and I'll lead the mages out of the city thereafter. It won't all be well, but the templars who instigated it will be stung and have taken heavy casualties, and their tyranny will have, at the last, failed.

You are actively assisting the people who are causing the entirety of collateral damage and preventing those who wish to make them stop. Also, by choosing to fight against the Templars who you can't defeat, you are also extending the duration of the fight which means collateral damage which means more dead kirkwallers who are being "protected" by guard who have neither the training nor the abilities required to deal with mages or demons.
Logic is on my side. Rant all you want about how moral you are being and all I'll do is roll my eyes.
But you can't claim that you are choosing the option that leads to the least death. That is the entire point of the Templar ending, make the fight as quickly and painless as possible so that Kirkwall suffers as little as possible.
An Hawke who sides with the mages helps to destroy Kirkwall and then abandons it to its luck.

[Xilizhra]

Given that you have already shown zero regards for their safety, I'm not convinced.
Plus, Hawke would ever be able to prevent the city from collapsing on itself if the mages won. Civil war, Exalthed Marche, take your pick.

Well, we know the latter isn't true, otherwise Asunder would have mentioned it. And if there's a civil war, it'd involve and weaken the templar faction, which is useful for the course of the wider war.

We see plenty of Abominations which consist of a possessed mage. Given the fact all demons want is to be in Thedas, it's illogical for them to return to the Fade after winning their flesh suits.

And yet, that's exactly what we see them do in DA2, a great many times. If that wasn't intended, they could have just jumped off of buildings like everyone else, or perhaps appeared from human sprites onscreen, but neither one of those occurs.

While we only see a mage being possessed, we don't need to. We know the city is infested with demons during this battle. Mages have an hard time defending against demons in the best of times; in a battlefield, many would be possessed. Willingly or not.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We only see one, though. Fortunately, they're easy to spot and kill.

Also, did you miss the part where the city is on fire? That is collateral damage from the mages fighting on the streets.

Aha, and you now change your story; before, you said this was collateral damage from Anders' bomb. Interesting.

This is not.
What if David Gaider came here and said that killing the mages saves more lives than assisting them does even without counting the templars?

I'll react to that never-going-to-happen-in-ten-thousand-years scenario when it comes.

You are actively assisting the people who are causing the entirety of collateral damage and preventing those who wish to make them stop. Also, by choosing to fight against the Templars who you can't defeat, you are also extending the duration of the fight which means collateral damage which means more dead kirkwallers who are being "protected" by guard who have neither the training nor the abilities required to deal with mages or demons.

Once the mages have withdrawn to the Gallows, all fighting in the city proper stops except for the demons and their enemies (interestingly, the templars seem to be utterly ignoring them). And the majority of the fighting happens there; most of the mages would have been there in the first place, and it's only Orsino's crowd that needs to withdraw back to the Gallows, so that segment of fighting is going to be quite short regardless. The main battle, in the Gallows, is utterly isolated from the nonmage civilians, and once Orsino's escort withdraws, the nonmages are no longer in any mage-related danger whatsoever. If the templars do at least some semblance of their duty, the mages can flee while the templars are cleaning up the demons, and the actual fighting can be over with the smallest amount of civilian casualties.

But you can't claim that you are choosing the option that leads to the least death. That is the entire point of the Templar ending, make the fight as quickly and painless as possible so that Kirkwall suffers as little as possible.

I can and will claim that, and be correct about it.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, we know the latter isn't true, otherwise Asunder would have mentioned it. And if there's a civil war, it'd involve and weaken the templar faction, which is useful for the course of the wider war.

It isn't because all mages died or ran.
Civil war between mages and non-mages.

And yet, that's exactly what we see them do in DA2, a great many times. If that wasn't intended, they could have just jumped off of buildings like everyone else, or perhaps appeared from human sprites onscreen, but neither one of those occurs.

Lore takes precedence over visual presentation. Hawke can be stabbed through the chest by the Arishok and get up just fine seconds later.
Abominations don't come from the Fade, period.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We only see one, though. Fortunately, they're easy to spot and kill.

There is no "perhaps" here. A great many mages will be possessed just like a great many mages were possessed in Ferelden's Circle.
Easy for the PC only.

Aha, and you now change your story; before, you said this was collateral damage from Anders' bomb. Interesting.

Some of it but logic dictates that mages fighting on the streets would lead to collateral damage. It's like giving a militia rocket launchers and expect them not to cause collateral damage.

I'll react to that never-going-to-happen-in-ten-thousand-years scenario when it comes.

Evading the question.

Once the mages have withdrawn to the Gallows, all fighting in the city proper stops except for the demons and their enemies (interestingly, the templars seem to be utterly ignoring them). And the majority of the fighting happens there; most of the mages would have been there in the first place, and it's only Orsino's crowd that needs to withdraw back to the Gallows, so that segment of fighting is going to be quite short regardless. The main battle, in the Gallows, is utterly isolated from the nonmage civilians, and once Orsino's escort withdraws, the nonmages are no longer in any mage-related danger whatsoever. If the templars do at least some semblance of their duty, the mages can flee while the templars are cleaning up the demons, and the actual fighting can be over with the smallest amount of civilian casualties.

The fact that the main battle occurs in the Gallows does not change the fact that a portion of it happens in the streets of Kirkwall and that the logic I used applies to this portion. Plus, the mages can't simply wash their hands off blame. They summoned these demons as shown by the fact they are not attacked by them in the sequence where you fight alongside the templars. They've caused all of this damage to Kirkwall
The rest is irrelevant to the topic of this thread but I will humor you.

It would be logically unsound to focus solely on the demons while leaving the mages free to attack or summon more. Demons and abominations are only the symptoms. Mages are the disease. Both must be dealt with in their proper time.

I can and will claim that, and be correct about it.

You have presented only one counter-argument in defense of less civillians casualties when siding with mages. It was the whole "easing the pressure on mages" which assumed that human beings used only the amount of violence absolutely necessary which has never been true. It was, therefore, wrong
Arguments such as "Most of the fighting happens in the Gallows" are not dependant on the side Hawke chose.
Meanwhile, the argument that siding with the mages means assisting the side causing all of the collateral damage as well as extending the fight by warring with the greater numbered opponent reamains a fact.

[Xilizhra]

It isn't because all mages died or ran.
Civil war between mages and non-mages.

I thought you said that mages weren't citizens of Kirkwall, hence it wouldn't be civil war.

Lore takes precedence over visual presentation. Hawke can be stabbed through the chest by the Arishok and get up just fine seconds later.
Abominations don't come from the Fade, period.

If that was true, then they'd have some kind of animation to indicate that. Unless you think that, say, there were a bunch of abominations hiding behind rocks waiting to pounce on Cullen in that one scene in Act 1. Which would make for a hell of a lot of abominations just roaming the countryside and living in Kirkwall, really.

There is no "perhaps" here. A great many mages will be possessed just like a great many mages were possessed in Ferelden's Circle.
Easy for the PC only.

Then let them bog down the templars who haven't made it to the Gallows yet, it's their job.

Some of it but logic dictates that mages fighting on the streets would lead to collateral damage. It's like giving a militia rocket launchers and expect them not to cause collateral damage.

There's very little fighting directly involving mages and templars, especially if you side with the mages; the battle shifts theaters quite fast. There are rather more demon attacks, and I believe most of the collateral damage comes from that source.

Evading the question.

It's an idiot question. It would be like me demanding an answer from you if I asked what you'd do if Gaider confirmed that all templar-supporters were evil bastards who'd be killed by a mass uprising of nonmages.

The fact that the main battle occurs in the Gallows does not change the fact that a portion of it happens in the streets of Kirkwall and that the logic I used applies to this portion. Plus, the mages can't simply wash their hands off blame. They summoned these demons as shown by the fact they are not attacked by them in the sequence where you fight alongside the templars. They've caused all of this damage to Kirkwall

If you side with the mages, they have no reason to summon any demons, and it never happens except for that one blood mage who happens to attack you. The demons are, for the most part, coming out spontaneously with the final collapse of the Veil. Also, your logic is terrible.

You have presented only one counter-argument in defense of less civillians casualties when siding with mages. It was the whole "easing the pressure on mages" which assumed that human beings used only the amount of violence absolutely necessary which has never been true. It was, therefore, wrong
Arguments such as "Most of the fighting happens in the Gallows" are not dependant on the side Hawke chose.
Meanwhile, the argument that siding with the mages means assisting the side causing all of the collateral damage as well as extending the fight by warring with the greater numbered opponent reamains a fact.

It does not "reamain" a fact in any manner that actually matters, because it does not extend the fight in any area that actually has nonmage civilians to be killed. Also, none of the mages on your own side need to resort to demon summoning in the mage ending, so... as a matter of fact, the "pressure-easing" thing was in fact right.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I thought you said that mages weren't citizens of Kirkwall, hence it wouldn't be civil war.

Semantics.
It will lead to the citizens of Kirkwall fighting with the mages. Better?

If that was true, then they'd have some kind of animation to indicate that. Unless you think that, say, there were a bunch of abominations hiding behind rocks waiting to pounce on Cullen in that one scene in Act 1. Which would make for a hell of a lot of abominations just roaming the countryside and living in Kirkwall, really.

And unless you think Hawke can just get up after having a sword through the chest, you'll just have to admit animations are largely irrelevant.

Then let them bog down the templars who haven't made it to the Gallows yet, it's their job.

Now you're suggesting letting Abominations loose in the city to slow down the templars.
Some Champion of Kirkwall.

There's very little fighting directly involving mages and templars, especially if you side with the mages; the battle shifts theaters quite fast. There are rather more demon attacks, and I believe most of the collateral damage comes from that source.

Only if you assume that Hawke witnessed every single fight that happened in Kirkwall.
Obviously, the engine can't support groups of hundred mages and templars fighting but lorewise, those are the numbers we're talking about here.

It's an idiot question. It would be like me demanding an answer from you if I asked what you'd do if Gaider confirmed that all templar-supporters were evil bastards who'd be killed by a mass uprising of nonmages.

I'd stop playing the game. Now answer my question.

If you side with the mages, they have no reason to summon any demons, and it never happens except for that one blood mage who happens to attack you. The demons are, for the most part, coming out spontaneously with the final collapse of the Veil.

You mean like Orsino had no reason to use blood magic if Hawke sides with him? Hawke is not seeing every teather of war. The truth is that people have never used merely the only amount of force absolutely necessary and I don't see why the mages would be so different. Also, demons are not the only way in which mages will cause collateral damage.

The demons are being controlled by the mages given the fact that whenever the two are together, they don't fight each other.

Also, your logic is terrible.

You have yet to point a single flaw in it.

It does not "reamain" a fact in any manner that actually matters, because it does not extend the fight in any area that actually has nonmage civilians to be killed.

It's simple math. By fighting the force capable of mustering the greater number of reinforcements, you extend the combat which leads to more collateral damage. It's the entire point of the Templar ending.
You are fighting in the the streets of Kirkwall. Do you really need to see screaming civillians to know that they are being killed?

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 06:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Semantics.
It will lead to the citizens of Kirkwall fighting with the mages. Better?

I don't see how, unless they're renegades who want to stay and die.

And unless you think Hawke can just get up after having a sword through the chest, you'll just have to admit animations are largely irrelevant.

Healing magic and potions. However, I should charge you with explaining how the abomination ecology works, with such a huge number of them apparently roaming Kirkwall and the countryside, and none of the templars ever mentioning it.

Now you're suggesting letting Abominations loose in the city to slow down the templars.
Some Champion of Kirkwall.

It's the templars' job.

Only if you assume that Hawke witnessed every single fight that happened in Kirkwall.
Obviously, the engine can't support groups of hundred mages and templars fighting but lorewise, those are the numbers we're talking about here.

Why on earth would hundreds of mages be let out of the Gallows at once? It's Orsino's small escort trying to retreat back to the Gallows; this is the entirety of the mage-related fighting in the wider conflict.

I'd stop playing the game. Now answer my question.

I may do something similar.

You mean like Orsino had no reason to use blood magic if Hawke sides with him? Hawke is not seeing every teather of war. The truth is that people have never used merely the only amount of force absolutely necessary and I don't see why the mages would be so different. Also, demons are not the only way in which mages will cause collateral damage.

Orsino's turn was for completely gamist and non-character reasons, so there's no point in trying to figure out reasons for it in Orsino's character. And, with demon summoning off the table, mages will stop causing collateral damage when they stop fighting, which can happen when either side wins. When that happens, everyone goes to the Gallows, and nonmage civilians are no longer in danger.

The demons are being controlled by the mages given the fact that whenever the two are together, they don't fight each other.

And in my playthrough, they're together... once.

It's simple math. By fighting the force capable of mustering the greater number of reinforcements, you extend the combat which leads to more collateral damage. It's the entire point of the Templar ending.
You are fighting in the the streets of Kirkwall. Do you really need to see screaming civillians to know that they are being killed?

Many actions can be undertaken by the player for a reason that turns out to be wrong. We see it in many different places, such as believing that it's necessary to kill the Council in ME, when it's really not and in fact saves fewer lives. And we saw both screaming civilians and civilian bodies lying around during the qunari invasion, so we know Bioware can do it, but there are neither in The Last Straw.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 avril 2013 - 06:45 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't see how, unless they're renegades who want to stay and die.

If the mages won, there would be multiple reasons that could lead to them staying which were elaborated on the OP.

Healing magic and potions.

Warrior/ Rogue Hawke. No potions used.

However, I should charge you with explaining how the abomination ecology works, with such a huge number of them apparently roaming Kirkwall and the countryside, and none of the templars ever mentioning it.

People mentioned it. Even Hawke did. "Rogue mages are constantly threatening the city."

It's the templars' job.

It's the job of the Champion of Kirkwall to not use Kirkwall as a meat shield to save people who are not citizens of Kirkwall.

Why on earth would hundreds of mages be let out of the Gallows at once? It's Orsino's small escort trying to retreat back to the Gallows; this is the entirety of the mage-related fighting in the wider conflict.

And why on earth would Orsino leave random groups of mages walking around random spots of the city? Because I killed his entourage with Meredith.

Orsino's turn was for completely gamist and non-character reasons, so there's no point in trying to figure out reasons for it in Orsino's character.

Ironic considering how many times you use gamist excuses to justify your position such as "Abominations come from the Fade because they rise from the ground ingame."
It's perfectly in-character for Orsino to do what he did. He never cared much for the lives of non-mages as evidenced by him assisting Quentin and his quote in his codex entry. Upon seeing so many of his brethren dead, he fell to despair and decided to, as his last act of defiance, kill as many non-mages as possible.

And, with demon summoning off the table, mages will stop causing collateral damage when they stop fighting, which can happen when either side wins. When that happens, everyone goes to the Gallows, and nonmage civilians are no longer in danger.

Demon summoning is not off the table, the fires they started won't put themselves out just because mages have stopped fighting and the possibility that they might retreat to the Gallows doesn't change the fact they fought in the streets of Kirkwall where Hawke can prevent collateral damage by killing them.

And in my playthrough, they're together... once.

That you saw.

Many actions can be undertaken by the player for a reason that turns out to be wrong. We see it in many different places, such as believing that it's necessary to kill the Council in ME, when it's really not and in fact saves fewer lives. And we saw both screaming civilians and civilian bodies lying around during the qunari invasion, so we know Bioware can do it, but there are neither in The Last Straw.

I can't help but notice that you failed to point out any flaw in the logic I used choosing instead to claim that I am wrong because...reasons.
Bioware was running out of time. By their own admission, Act 2 was the most complete. Do you think people stopped living near the Hanged Man all of a sudden?

[Xilizhra]

If the mages won, there would be multiple reasons that could lead to them staying which were elaborated on the OP.

I'll be willing to lead their families out too. They might not be safe in the city anyway.

People mentioned it. Even Hawke did. "Rogue mages are constantly threatening the city."

Rogue mages, not abominations, which are allegedly a far more serious problem (despite the fact that they're generally much easier to kill).

It's the job of the Champion of Kirkwall to not use Kirkwall as a meat shield to save people who are not citizens of Kirkwall.

Actually, Champion has no specific job description, it's just someone extremely important and a catalyst for change.

And why on earth would Orsino leave random groups of mages walking around random spots of the city? Because I killed his entourage with Meredith.

Possibly those who successfully fled your assault, and were initially invisible in the same way that all the nonmage civilians allegedly are.

It's perfectly in-character for Orsino to do what he did. He never cared much for the lives of non-mages as evidenced by him assisting Quentin and his quote in his codex entry. Upon seeing so many of his brethren dead, he fell to despair and decided to, as his last act of defiance, kill as many non-mages as possible.

His assisting Quentin was part of the character butchery thrown in at the last minute to justify the boss battle, so you're trying to use the battle to justify the battle. And truth be told, I have no real problem with his transformation, or wouldn't have had one had he been able to control the damn thing; as it is, he just wasted my time. Oh well, he dropped a cool staff.

Demon summoning is not off the table, the fires they started won't put themselves out just because mages have stopped fighting and the possibility that they might retreat to the Gallows doesn't change the fact they fought in the streets of Kirkwall where Hawke can prevent collateral damage by killing them.

The fires won't change regardless of whom I side with, I have no evidence of demon summoning in my own ending, and I prevent collateral damage by ending the fighting, regardless of who wins.

That you saw.

Which is, of course, all I can use to base my actions around without metagaming.

I can't help but notice that you failed to point out any flaw in the logic I used choosing instead to claim that I am wrong because...reasons.

I've pointed out numerous ones, you just have a bizarre tendency to claim none of them count. If you continue this in the next post, I'm not going to reply to it.

Bioware was running out of time. By their own admission, Act 2 was the most complete. Do you think people stopped living near the Hanged Man all of a sudden?

Ah, right. So go ask Bioware and see if they really did intend for there to be civilian casualties strewn around, before using biased speculation instead of actual evidence. I'll wait.

[TEWR]

[quote]People mentioned it. Even Hawke did. "Rogue mages are constantly threatening the city."[/quote]

Which goes back to the whole "Are they doing this on their own or are they being driven to it" argument.

Given the fact that Varric says the harder Meredith squeezed, the more the Mages resisted, it seems fair to say Meredith was the root cause of it and that the Mages won't do the same thing with her out of the picture.

[quote]Protect the mages at the expense of the kirkwallers you mean[/quote]

Punishing people based on the predicated belief of what will transpire seems like a false system of legality to uphold. It's a slippery slope. You open up all kinds of problems with such a thing, especially when you've got an Order as corrupt as the vast majority of Kirkwall's Templars who have shown that they don't care for the law.

Regardless, if some Mages do commit crimes afterwards -- and that's an IF -- then they shall be punished accordingly because they will have... well... done something worth punishing.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

And yet, that's exactly what we see them do in DA2, a great many times. If that wasn't intended, they could have just jumped off of buildings like everyone else, or perhaps appeared from human sprites onscreen, but neither one of those occurs.[/quote]

The rising out of the ground thing? John Epler addressed this as being a gameplay and story segregation moment that they should've done better and are going to address -- along with trying to make the Abominations more threat worthy in visual representation.

[quote]A Hawke who sides with the mages is simply unwilling to fulffil his/her duty[/quote]

It's not a title that carries with it any duty. Just reverence, awe, fear, and respect. The Champion's duty can go either way. No obligation is tied down to it.

And as I said earlier in the thread, Kirkwall's Gallows can arguably be considered a part of Kirkwall, because of Meredith's earlier actions.

[quote]And you think it's odd people would prefer them over the mages.[/quote]

Kirkwall doesn't think the same way. Kirkwall has become just as likely to slam the doors in the Templars' faces as they are to help them, and that's in Act 1 alone. A 50:50 ratio existed then, and by Act 3 it's a 75:25 ratio at least given all we hear of people fighting against the Order.

[quote]Given the fact all demons want is to be in Thedas, it's illogical for them to return to the Fade after winning their flesh suits.[/quote]

Well, while the Abominations we fight don't come from the Fade (that much is true, they just rise up from the ground, something John Epler said will be addressed hopefully), you should look at Torpor's possessing Feynriel scene to see that they do have a flesh-suit morphism going on in there as well.

[quote]What if David Gaider came here and said that killing the mages saves more lives than assisting them does even without counting the templars?[/quote]

I'd personally berate him for not even giving this even a tiny glimmer of a moment as being seen on screen, other then the hypothetical musings of a woman driven insane by a lyrium idol who has shown that she wanted to cull all Mages anyway.

[quote]You are actively assisting the people who are causing the entirety of collateral damage.

Some of it (Anders' bomb) is collateral damage[/quote]

Does not compute.

[quote]They summoned these demons as shown by the fact they are not attacked by them in the sequence where you fight alongside the templars. They've caused all of this damage to Kirkwall[/quote]

Not ALL of the Mages we fight are summoning Demons. Some Demons came through of their own volition and summoned others, and Kirkwall already had a paper-thin Veil to start with. Fighting the Mages only causes the Veil to become thinner.

Defending the Mages doesn't necessarily mean one must kill the Templars, as there are numerous spells that can be used to render Templars incapable of fighting temporarily.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

it never happens except for that one blood mage who happens to attack you[/quote]

The Pride Demon did that one, as the PD is there all the time at the start, the BM can be killed before the Demons show up, and PDs are capable of summoning other Demons per the lore.

[quote]Obviously, the engine can't support groups of hundred mages and templars fighting but lorewise, those are the numbers we're talking about here.[/quote]

Except Meredith restricted Mages going out of the Gallows, so there aren't "hundreds of Mages and Templars" fighting in the streets. The fact that Orsino managed to get out of the Gallows at all with a few of his Mages to see Elthina when he was also restricted by the KC -- who sadly holds all the power, thus limiting Orsino's -- is a stroke of luck.

[quote]The demons are being controlled by the mages given the fact that whenever the two are together, they don't fight each other.[/quote]

Bear in mind that some Demons are actually enthralling some of the Mages and Templars to fight for them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Which goes back to the whole "Are they doing this on their own or are they being driven to it" argument.

Given the fact that Varric says the harder Meredith squeezed, the more the Mages resisted, it seems fair to say Meredith was the root cause of it and that the Mages won't do the same thing with her out of the picture.[/quote]
If we are to try and determine the reasons for the elevated number of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall, we must pay attention to the personal motives of each and not simply to the number of occurrences.
We meet some of the blood mages and abominations in Act 3 and hear their justifications. Out of all of them, I can think of only one who can truly say that he wouldn't be dangerous if not for Meredith and that's Alain.

Honestly, attempting to determine who started it is a pointless exercise. We can go around and around and we'll be discussing Tevinter before we know it. I can point to you mages who used their powers to hurt and opress and who never had hard lifes. What is their excuse?

[quote]
Punishing people based on the predicated belief of what will transpire seems like a false system of legality to uphold. It's a slippery slope. You open up all kinds of problems with such a thing, especially when you've got an Order as corrupt as the vast majority of Kirkwall's Templars who have shown that they don't care for the law.

Regardless, if some Mages do commit crimes afterwards -- and that's an IF -- then they shall be punished accordingly because they will have... well... done something worth punishing.[/quote]
Militaries make predictions all the time and act upon these predictions.
We can easily predict tremendous social uphveal if the mages were to win and remain in Kirkwall after tonight. You must remember that this isn't simply run of the mill prejudice that can be seen in every society. This is the aftermath of a night of war where agression of a magical nature was used against the entirety of Kirkwall.
In this situation, I believe striking preemptively to save what is left of the city is the right course of action.

[quote]
It's not a title that carries with it any duty. Just reverence, awe, fear, and respect. The Champion's duty can go either way. No obligation is tied down to it.[/quote]
That seems silly. Both Champions we know of became so by protecting their respective cities. While the methods used might be unsavory, as killing all mages is, I doubt the Champion of Kirkwall is supposed to help destroy Kirkwall.

[quote]And as I said earlier in the thread, Kirkwall's Gallows can arguably be considered a part of Kirkwall, because of Meredith's earlier actions.[/quote]
The mages fall under the jurisdiction of the Chantry, not of the Viscount which makes them not citizens of Kirkwall. And even if they were, sometimes, sacrifices are necessary for the greater good.

[quote]
Kirkwall doesn't think the same way. Kirkwall has become just as likely to slam the doors in the Templars' faces as they are to help them, and that's in Act 1 alone. A 50:50 ratio existed then, and by Act 3 it's a 75:25 ratio at least given all we hear of people fighting against the Order.[/quote]
While it is true Cullen said that, Macha also says that Meredith has many supporters. If her detractors increased the harsher her measures became, logica dictates the same happened for her supporters given the increased number of magical attacks the city suffered.

And even if the population of Kirkwall were to become dissatisfied with the role the Order plays in the city such as the nobles plotting that conspiracy were, that does not follow they are any supportive of mages. Perhaps all they want is for Meredith to step down from the Viscount's seat which is a reasonable request.

[quote]
Well, while the Abominations we fight don't come from the Fade (that much is true, they just rise up from the ground, something John Epler said will be addressed hopefully), you should look at Torpor's possessing Feynriel scene to see that they do have a flesh-suit morphism going on in there as well.[/quote]
Feynriel's body was not in the Fade; his mother tells us he fell asleep and won't wake up. The change in appearance was more symbolic than anything.
I doubt it's possible even for a demon to bring somebody's flesh suit into the Fade. The last time that happened, the Darkspawn happened.

[quote]
I'd personally berate him for not even giving this even a tiny glimmer of a moment as being seen on screen, other then the hypothetical musings of a woman driven insane by a lyrium idol who has shown that she wanted to cull all Mages anyway.[/quote]
Fair enough but I think it's what he intended to get through by way of Hawke's dialogue in the Templar Ending:
"Innocent lives will be lost, regardless. All we can do is make the fight as quickly and painless as possible. I think we all agree no one wants templars and mages fighting in the streets.
Kirkwall is my home and I intend to protect it!"

[quote]
Does not compute.[/quote]
Some of the collateral damage done to the city will be due to Anders' bomb but the majority of it will be due to the mages fighting in the streets plus demons passing through the Veil.

[quote]
Defending the Mages doesn't necessarily mean one must kill the Templars, as there are numerous spells that can be used to render Templars incapable of fighting temporarily.[/quote]
That is true but these mages are hardly trained soldiers. In combat situations people get scared, people get angry.
They won't be thinking of stopping anyone without killing them.

[quote]
Except Meredith restricted Mages going out of the Gallows, so there aren't "hundreds of Mages and Templars" fighting in the streets. The fact that Orsino managed to get out of the Gallows at all with a few of his Mages to see Elthina when he was also restricted by the KC -- who sadly holds all the power, thus limiting Orsino's -- is a stroke of luck.[/quote]
Pro-Templar Hawke kills all of Orsino's entourage while he runs back to the Circle. I can't possibly think of a reason for him to leave groups of mages in random positions around Kirkwall rather than bolstening his numbers when facing Meredith so, where did those mages come from? I don't know, maybe they followed Orsino and were separated.
Regardless, given the fact that Circle Mages are, clearly, in Kirkwall, I don't believe we can safely say Hawke interfered in all fights happening outside of the Gallows that night.

[quote]
Bear in mind that some Demons are actually enthralling some of the Mages and Templars to fight for them.
[/quote]
Only two Desire Demons and perhaps that Pride Demon. Shades can't do that or Rage Demons can't do that and they compose the majority of summoned demons.

[Plaintiff]

If the "people of Kirkwall" decide to attack the Gallows instead of behaving like rational human beings and actually making a token effort to understand the situation, then they deserve what they get, which will be a fireball to the face.

There are no "innocents" in this fight. Claiming neutrality in the face of obvious injustice and oppression is just tacit support of the oppressors.

[TEWR]

Both Champions we know of became so by protecting their respective cities

Right, they became Champions by protecting their cities. Which Hawke did against the Qunari.

That, however, carries no weight to any notion of what a Champion MUST do after being named such. We don't know the lives of those other Champions. And defending cities doesn't seem like it's the only means to becoming Champion. It's the only known means, sure, but as I said being called Champion doesn't mean "You MUST do X now".

And even if you were to say that Hawke must protect the city, then the argument can be made that Hawke fighting the Templars is protecting the city. The Templars have shown in the past that they don't have the peoples' well being at heart -- at least in Kirkwall -- and this is the straw that broke the camel's back. They've systematically oppressed the peoples' rights and in the last 3 years have become brazen enough to murder them in broad daylight, among other crimes they commit.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 avril 2013 - 12:07 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...

If the "people of Kirkwall" decide to attack the Gallows instead of behaving like rational human beings and actually making a token effort to understand the situation, then they deserve what they get, which will be a fireball to the face.

There are no "innocents" in this fight. Claiming neutrality in the face of obvious injustice and oppression is just tacit support of the oppressors.

Oh please, if remaining static in the face of "opression" merited death, Earth would be a wasteland. Our societies are cesspools of opression, never mind the fact there are dozen of differing opinions on what constitutes "opression".

Meet Tom, a Ferelden refugee, his wife was killed by darkspawn and now he works double shift to feed his son whose foot was crushed by a carriage. Meet Mary, a Kirkwaller who seels handkerchiefs for a living, making just enough to get by another month.
These people have pressing matters such as putting food on the table and they don't deserve to have their lives ruined just because they're not involved with the mage underground or conducting protests in the Gallows. Mages are not the only people in Thedas who suffer.

[Xilizhra]

Meet Tom, a Ferelden refugee, his wife was killed by darkspawn and now he works double shift to feed his son whose foot was crushed by a carriage. Meet Mary, a Kirkwaller who seels handkerchiefs for a living, making just enough to get by another month.
These people have pressing matters such as putting food on the table and they don't deserve to have their lives ruined just because they're not involved with the mage underground or conducting protests in the Gallows. Mages are not the only people in Thedas who suffer.

Indeed. Perhaps the templars shouldn't have prosecuted a genocidal effort that would threaten to tear apart the city. Or, better yet, not built a Circle inside a Hellmouth. Or, even better, not used that specific system.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the "people of Kirkwall" decide to attack the Gallows instead of behaving like rational human beings and actually making a token effort to understand the situation, then they deserve what they get, which will be a fireball to the face.

There are no "innocents" in this fight. Claiming neutrality in the face of obvious injustice and oppression is just tacit support of the oppressors.

Oh please, if remaining static in the face of "opression" merited death, Earth would be a wasteland. Our societies are cesspools of opression, never mind the fact there are dozen of differing opinions on what constitutes "opression".

Meet Tom, a Ferelden refugee, his wife was killed by darkspawn and now he works double shift to feed his son whose foot was crushed by a carriage. Meet Mary, a Kirkwaller who seels handkerchiefs for a living, making just enough to get by another month.
These people have pressing matters such as putting food on the table and they don't deserve to have their lives ruined just because they're not involved with the mage underground or conducting protests in the Gallows. Mages are not the only people in Thedas who suffer.

Well first of all, I really kind of doubt that the citizens of Kirkwall are going to raise any sort of mass riot against the mages.  One has to take into account the world they live in.  This isn't some local scuzz bucket like the magistrate's kid.  This is a group of people that most non-mages are, to varying degrees, scared spitless of.  That's why the have Templars in the first place.  You might get handful of angry drunken yahoos trying to march on the Gallows, but chances are a crowd that drunk probably won't be sober enough to operate the boat to get over there (remember the Hanged Man is on the wrong side of the Gallows for a convenient angry march.

As for Tom and Mary, well you're right.  They don't deserve to have their shops or homes burned down.  But...meet Glen.  He's a seven year old child who has just been taken away from his mother and father and the only home he's ever known and been told all the way by some overzealous Templar that he's cursed and that demons want to eat his soul.  Meet Glenda.  She passed her Harrowing ages ago and has managed to find joy in teaching the young ones in the circle about the basics of magic.  She's really reached out to young Glen and has become something of a surrogate older sister to him.  For the first time since he's been taken away Glen feels at home, and Glenda can't help but be reminded of her own younger brother while looking at him.  This makes her feel a  bit more at home.  They're both looking forward to the future.  These are just to of the mages Meredith and the Bucketheads want to bump off.

This is why the choice is supposed to be hard.

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Well first of all, I really kind of doubt that the citizens of Kirkwall are going to raise any sort of mass riot against the mages.  One has to take into account the world they live in.  This isn't some local scuzz bucket like the magistrate's kid.  This is a group of people that most non-mages are, to varying degrees, scared spitless of.  That's why the have Templars in the first place.  You might get handful of angry drunken yahoos trying to march on the Gallows, but chances are a crowd that drunk probably won't be sober enough to operate the boat to get over there (remember the Hanged Man is on the wrong side of the Gallows for a convenient angry march.

I'll remind you that my stance in this thread was never actually defending the possibility of a mob forming that particular night. Rather, I chose to focus on the immediate threat that uncontrolled mages fighting in the streets pose to the general population of Kirkwall and an hypothetical scenario where Hawke actually managed to defeat the templars and the mages remain in Kirkwall.

It is true that people are afraid of mages but fear leads to anger which leads to violence. We see it happen in Asunder; a group of mages plus a templar stop in a tavern and it doesn't take long before the people want to lynch them. And there were over more distance and less damaging incidents than what happened in Kirkwall that night.
I'd say violence between the mage and non-mage population was inevitable afterwards.

This is why the choice is supposed to be hard.

I never said it was an easy choice. As you say, there are innocents in the Circle.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 avril 2013 - 09:14 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Right, they became Champions by protecting their cities. Which Hawke did against the Qunari.

That, however, carries no weight to any notion of what a Champion MUST do after being named such. We don't know the lives of those other Champions. And defending cities doesn't seem like it's the only means to becoming Champion. It's the only known means, sure, but as I said being called Champion doesn't mean "You MUST do X now".

I'd assume the people "elected" to a position, (how do you even make someone champion? If a number enough of people scream your name, you're suddenly the Champion?) thanks to a sucessfull defense of the city-state are expected to continue protected said city.
Meredith seems to believe Hawke has a duty as a Champion. And while she is paranoid, she is not stupid.

And even if you were to say that Hawke must protect the city, then the argument can be made that Hawke fighting the Templars is protecting the city. The Templars have shown in the past that they don't have the peoples' well being at heart -- at least in Kirkwall -- and this is the straw that broke the camel's back. They've systematically oppressed the peoples' rights and in the last 3 years have become brazen enough to murder them in broad daylight, among other crimes they commit.

It's true that certain members of the Templar Order have commited crimes in Kirkwall; altough, one could argue the people helping the mages are endagering the city; but I believe that in "The Last Straw" one should focus on the rather immediate threat of mages using spells without restraint and summoning demons and becoming possessed over the more distant and lesser threat of a templar regime.
Sure, Meredith needs to vacate the position of Viscount but we can take care of that when the city is not on fire.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 avril 2013 - 09:22 .

[DKJaigen]

In short you fight the symptoms of the disease but not the disease itself. Do you even realize what will happen when hawke is gone from kirkwall? Tensions with the nobility and templars where already pretty high and can really escalate into a civil war . And self righteous ****s like the Templars will always believe that they should be in control so they will likely try put another puppet viscount on the throne.

The templar cancer must be cut out of the city in order for the city to thrive. That's why i support the mages for it will allow me to perform a culling of this corruption. And it forces the chantry to send more templars who take their jobs more seriously