615 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

To answer the original question concerning the title of this thread....

Any choice designed to slaughter ANY person of a crime they did not commit, let alone innocent children torn from their families already, cannot be called a moral decision and neither do I think it can be justified.

What we had in DA2, was a templar order more concerned with solidifying its political power rather than do their jobs. We have plenty of examples, going back to Act 1, that shows the templars are not willing to do their jobs and are corrupt beyond reason, from (as Etheral points out) Emerick who tried tracking Quinten but is stonewalled by Meredith and then by Aveline despite the evidence that warrants a templar investigation, to Meredith promoting extremists to the positions of Knight-Lieutenants like Alrik, Kerras, Mettin and others who go out of their way to slaughter people unnecessarily, or take sadistic pleasure with their power over mages, and completely ignores their actual job, as seen in Emerick's storyline as well as the fact that a bloodmage gang is running around High Town in Act 3, and the templars who control the area don't do ANYTHING about it, instead focus on trying to oust Aveline from the Captaincy so they can take control over the guard.

And when it comes to the act itself, Anders is clearly the guilty party, and submits himself to justice, and fully expects to be killed anyway. Meredith completely ignores him, in favor of slaughtering every other mage in the city who WEREN'T involved, and her only attempt to justify it, is to 'appease the mob' despite it being her job description to also protect mages from the masses while also protecting the masses from the mages.

Where was she when the masses were slaughtered by templar death squads, and the templar leading them is an extremist she appointed to the post? She's off accusing everyone and everything of blood magic, and happily ignoring anything that proves her wrong, like Orsino not being involved with Thrask's rebellion, claiming that Hawke is being influenced by Orsino's blood magic, rather than admit she was wrong.

I cannot possibly see ANY morality or justification for the Right of Annulment in Kirkwall. They didn't commit the crime, they didn't start the problems, as I've pointed out repeatedly in the past that blood mages only became a problem AFTER Meredith illegally became the defacto viscount and held that power for 3 years, and Meredith was looking for any reason to kill them anyway, as confirmed by Kerras in Act 3 when he says Meredith was trying to go over Elthina's head to get approval.

Meredith has NO moral ground to stand on, and neither does her Right of Annulment.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

While I commend you for your effort and memory and admit that there were issues within the Templar Chapter of Kirkwall, most of their past actions are irrelevant given that my entire point is, mostly, centered around future interactions between mages and kirkwallers.[/quote]

I had a long post typed out, but alas, I lost it due to some stupid computer trickery.

Suffice to say, it is relevant. If I have seen that the Order has not done their job properly in the past, then I cannot entrust them to the future of Kirkwall's Circle or Kirkwall proper either. If they had done their duty properly, tensions would not have escalated so high. If they had done their duty properly, the city would be safe from most magical threats if not all of them.

And let's not forget that if the Mages see the Champion is on their side, they will be less inclined to turn towards blood magic, for a multitude of reasons.

1) They believe they have a chance with regular magic.
2) They see that they actually do have supporters from the city. For instance, Aveline brings with her the support of the City Guard. Not support in the sense of them fighting, but support in the case of the Templars not receiving aid from the Guardsmen, which is good enough. 
3) Doing so might, while understandable given the circumstances, turn the Champion against them. 

Furthermore, I'd argue that the Mages would also be similarly of a mind to do their best to reduce civilian casualties on their own. They can control magical attacks and thus direct where they go, so I'm certain that they would do their best to make sure only the Templars are targeted. After all, if they attack the civilians, that also runs the risk of endangering the Champion's support.

And the Champion, by and large, can be said to carry the support of Kirkwall. The nobility and commoners adore Hawke -- Hawke's rise apparently helped many Fereldan refugees -- and some nobles even echo the man's opinions as their own (lemmings do that). So it's possible that some might see the Champion fighting the Templars -- of which there has been massive levels of discontentment amongst the citizenry -- and join the side of the Mages or at least refrain from battling at all. Maybe they'd even help the Guardsmen with crowd control, as nobility tend to have their own forces at their disposal.

[quote]You could try to make a case about how the civillians would view the templars but details such as a group of templars torturing a dalish young hunter are meaningless given the likelihood the kirkwallers won't care.[/quote]

Oh, I'd think they'd care. Given how Vanard was thrown out of office for his corruption of it regarding justice, City Elves, and his son along with how Hawke the Champion -- again, whom people adore -- might also have befriended two Elves and assisted the Elven community... I'd say they'd care on some level.

Moreover, some people would undoubtedly take issue with the fact the Templars tortured a child, Elven or no. Others might just take issue because of the idea that they might do the same to their children or their friends' children.

And considering the Templars have been murdering people of human ancestry, then they might consider it definitely possible the Templars would torture children of human ancestry as well.

[quote]Suspicions have calmed to the point where a kossith blooded qunari can walk around without stirring panic.[/quote]

I imagine some people still have their suspicions, even if they're not voicing them.

[quote]While I can understand not trusting Meredith to command the next Circle, the common people were not suffering under the templars.[/quote]

Oh but they were. The loss of their right to autonomy, Templar death squads murdering people in broad daylight for aiding Mages the Templars themselves brutalized (which is not only the wrong punishment for aiding Mages, but the people will see that the Templars are actively oppressing them), the Templars trying to consolidate power by taking over the City Guard (such that if Aveline and her men didn't stand up to them, all of Kirkwall would be seen as puppets in need of hands up their arses), and so on.

[quote]We've seen attempts to puge mage sympathizers but, after the Battle, that would be almost no one.[/quote]

You can't say that. The Champion is much adored, such that people will follow his views.

[quote]You are standing up for anarchy, not against tyranny. You are helping the mages run amok on the city and outside if they escape and if you win, you will have killed the only forces of authority capable of controlling them.[/quote]

I am standing against tyranny. It was never my intention to eliminate the Templars, as I knew full well such a goal was simply not feasible.

I do not need to eliminate 3/4 of the Templars in Kirkwall to win. I only need to eliminate 1/4 that, by their deaths, allows 1/2 of the Mages to escape.

And the Templars have never done their job properly in the past for Kirkwall. At least now they'd have a legitimate reason for being unable to do it.

You're placing a mighty large amount of trust in a group of people that have, by their inactions, allowed Kirkwall to suffer magical threats most foul.

[quote]Will the mages remain in the Gallows and quietly wait for the Divine to send reinforcements?[/quote]

Some might, if the Templars stand down after Meredith's display of insanity and Cullen takes full command.

[quote]nd even if they did, it is only a matter of time until the people of Kirkwall commandeer boats and demand a justification as to why
both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander have been slain by magic in which case we can expect more bloodshed.[/quote]

Meredith was hated, so people wouldn't be shedding too many tears over her death, moreso if Cullen explains to them that she had bought some magical artifact found in the Deep Roads by Bartrand's expedition that drove her mad.

Along with an explanation that Anders, a madman Abomination mage, was executed for his crime. The Templars exist to defend the Mages from the mundanes and the mundanes from the ravages of magical threats. A mob of commoners with pitchforks and kitchen knives and patchwork armor would quake in fear when they saw a military order of guardians to the Mages accompanied by the City Guard working to defend the Mages.

[quote]Will the mages run from the city? Possibly, a few might but I doubt the majority will do so. We must remember that these mages likely have families in the city that they probably miss and that even those who don't will feel empowered by this victory which might rule over their common sense.[/quote]

Actually, it'd be unwise for them to stay there, given how they need to spread word of the injustice that happened. Some might go to their families, yes, but not for very long. The most they'd do is tell them what happened and tell them to be safe as they might be in danger now.

But to stay in Kirkwall would be unwise.

[quote]Rather, the common people will likely see it as a plot by the mages to establish a new Tevinter and they will react with violence. Violence that the City Guard
 will find itself unable to curb given the fact they are not used to fighting mages.[/quote]

And where are the Templars? As it's not the goal of Hawke to destroy the Order's presence wholesale, then there'd still be Templars there. Where are they in this hypothetical aftermath? Are they just once more sitting on the sidelines ignoring their proper duties?

Maybe if Meredith had actually sent some of her Templars to assist Aveline and her guardsmen in keeping the town safe from magical threats, the City Guard would have a better understanding of how to deal with these things.

I will not clean up Meredith's mess that she created. I will expose it. I did the same thing for Vanard, for Petrice, and for many others.

[quote]Demons can shift through planes. I doubt a little water is going to stop them.[/quote]

Eh.... that's really apples and oranges. Crossing between two realms isn't the same as crossing miles of water. I doubt Demons know how to swim, and when they possess a body they'd be facing the weaknesses of the mortal body (drowning, in particular). 

[quote]Do you think the templars or any other soldier for that matter can just decide when he or she wants to go to war? Their commander gives orders and they must obey, that's all there is to it.[/quote]

The ability to think for one's self is a vital part to our nature as human beings. If they cannot differentiate between what is truly necessary for an RoA to be justified... then are they truly fit to be soldiers standing up for the justice of both Mages and mundanes? 

[quote]I'd say there were being much more actively harmed by the blood mages and abominations. Before and during the RoA[/quote]

The only blood mages during Act 3 were the Bloodragers, whom the Templars ignored despite having a very visible presence in Hightown.

No abominations appeared in Act 3 either, at least in Kirkwall. Kirkwall's outskirts, yes, but that's different.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2013 - 10:43 .

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

I'll remind you that my stance in this thread was never actually defending the possibility of a mob forming that particular night. Rather, I chose to focus on the immediate threat that uncontrolled mages fighting in the streets pose to the general population of Kirkwall and an hypothetical scenario where Hawke actually managed to defeat the templars and the mages remain in Kirkwall.

While it's true that any fighting in the streets of Kirkwall is dangerous, it's important to note that it's not like escaping mages are going to go out of their way to harm the citizens of Kirkwall.  With the City Guard helping the citizens I believe civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum.  Any civilian casualties would still be tragic, I'm not saying they wouldn't be.  But it's not like the mages are torching building and killing people at random just for the fun of it.  The mages going full abomination will, but you end up fighting them no matter who you side with.  The mages heading for the hills will most likely want to avoid calling any more attention to themselves then they already have.

It is true that people are afraid of mages but fear leads to anger which leads to violence. We see it happen in Asunder; a group of mages plus a templar stop in a tavern and it doesn't take long before the people want to lynch them. And there were over more distance and less damaging incidents than what happened in Kirkwall that night.
I'd say violence between the mage and non-mage population was inevitable afterwards.

I still disagree.  Keep in this isn't a situation like the Magistrate's son (who, while not lynched by angry citizens, would probably have been if he were targeting humans) or the Arl's Son in Denerim at the beginning of the City Elf Origin in DA:O.  This isn't just one person or a small group of people.  This is a large population of mages that, in your hypothetical situation, have taken town all or most of the Templars.  That's going to give the citizens a lot more pause before deciding to enact vigilante justice.

This is all beside the fact that I still disagree with you regarding the number of mages willing to stay in Kirkwall in your scenario.  Templar reinforcements are coming.  It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when.  The mages, keep in mind, aren't even in full rebellion at this point.  It's an uprising or riot at best.  Thus there's no reason to believe that the mages would think they have any realistic chance of taking a city and holding it.  Some mages might stay in town, like you said they have family or whatever reason they might not want to leave.  But I believe that number is inverted from your estimation, with most of the mages leaving and only a handful sticking around Kirkwall.

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...
While it's true that any fighting in the streets of Kirkwall is dangerous, it's important to note that it's not like escaping mages are going to go out of their way to harm the citizens of Kirkwall. With the City Guard helping the citizens I believe civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum. Any civilian casualties would still be tragic, I'm not saying they wouldn't be. But it's not like the mages are torching building and killing people at random just for the fun of it. The mages going full abomination will, but you end up fighting them no matter who you side with. The mages heading for the hills will most likely want to avoid calling any more attention to themselves then they already have.

It's true that many mages will not directly target the people of Kirkwall; although some might use their lifeforce to power blood spells; but this is like giving rocket launchers to untrained militia. Intentionally or not, people are bound to get hurt. Plus, as you said, the Veil is pretty much sundered at this point. Pride Demons are just passing through it al will which leads to many abominations, never mind that some mages will willingly summon them to protect themselves. The city guards just aren't equipped to deal with something like this.

Therefore, targeting the mages accomplishes three important objectives.
1-It makes the battle faster given the fact mages are less numerous than templars.
2-It removes the side causing the entirety of the collateral damage.
3-It prevents further Abominations.

It's true that some mages will attempt to escape but that is not the case with all. Hawke encounters mages fighting templars and s/he must make a choice.

I still disagree. Keep in this isn't a situation like the Magistrate's son (who, while not lynched by angry citizens, would probably have been if he were targeting humans) or the Arl's Son in Denerim at the beginning of the City Elf Origin in DA:O. This isn't just one person or a small group of people. This is a large population of mages that, in your hypothetical situation, have taken town all or most of the Templars. That's going to give the citizens a lot more pause before deciding to enact vigilante justice.

It needs not be something that happens all at once. The mages suddenly have nothing bidding them; the non-mages are scared and angry. Fights break out in the first day over Anders’ terrorism but are separated. That night, a group of young, reckless mages decides they need new furnishing at the Gallows and steal them. In the second night, some non-mages sneak into the home of a family who was happy to have their children freed and butcher them. Meanwhile, the nobles are either joining in or making a grab for the Viscount’s seat.
People start blaming each other. Tensions rise amidst both groups, each claiming that the other side will not stop until they’re all killed or chained again.
Well, you can see where this leads.

This is all beside the fact that I still disagree with you regarding the number of mages willing to stay in Kirkwall in your scenario. Templar reinforcements are coming. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when. The mages, keep in mind, aren't even in full rebellion at this point. It's an uprising or riot at best. Thus there's no reason to believe that the mages would think they have any realistic chance of taking a city and holding it. Some mages might stay in town, like you said they have family or whatever reason they might not want to leave. But I believe that number is inverted from your estimation, with most of the mages leaving and only a handful sticking around Kirkwall.

You must remember that we’re not talking about a small group of powerful mages who are content to hide in the Wilds. This is a community constituted of powerful mages, yes, but also young children and elderly. Neither of which are fit to survive in the wilds by themselves.
The templars will come but a mass exodus only means that they present a much larger target while if they managed to remain in Kirkwall, they would have the city’s defenses. Even if they left, where would they go? To Tevinter? That would mean crossing the entirety of the Free Marches.

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

In short you fight the symptoms of the disease but not the disease itself. Do you even realize what will happen when hawke is gone from kirkwall? Tensions with the nobility and templars where already pretty high and can really escalate into a civil war . And self righteous ****s like the Templars will always believe that they should be in control so they will likely try put another puppet viscount on the throne.

The templar cancer must be cut out of the city in order for the city to thrive. That's why i support the mages for it will allow me to perform a culling of this corruption. And it forces the chantry to send more templars who take their jobs more seriously

You bring up a very good comparasion.  But, If you are suffering from the flu would you only seek out meds to combat the virus itself or would you also like relief from its symptoms? A body that feels good is better able to heal than one left in pain regardless of whether or not you cure it. I can't see the Templars as the cancer you claim they are. If I were to keep up the sickness anology then I see them as more of an immunity system that had simply become too strong. People boast about having a strong immune system but the truth is that an immune system that is too strong can lead to death as it will kill off healthy cells for no reason. I also don't see mages as a disease, if anything they are bacteria or cells(just in case someone has an issue with me calling mages bacterica), some are good and others are pathogens (or full of them), that feed on toxins and spread disease. The true cancer in Kirkwall would probably be that torn veil and blood mages and demon summoners are happily feasting on it.  The way I see it, you don't heal the body by killing off your immune system, it just has to be under control.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

In short you fight the symptoms of the disease but not the disease itself. Do you even realize what will happen when hawke is gone from kirkwall? Tensions with the nobility and templars where already pretty high and can really escalate into a civil war . And self righteous ****s like the Templars will always believe that they should be in control so they will likely try put another puppet viscount on the throne.

The templar cancer must be cut out of the city in order for the city to thrive. That's why i support the mages for it will allow me to perform a culling of this corruption. And it forces the chantry to send more templars who take their jobs more seriously

You bring up a very good comparasion.  But, If you are suffering from the flu would you only seek out meds to combat the virus itself or would you also like relief from its symptoms? A body that feels good is better able to heal than one left in pain regardless of whether or not you cure it. I can't see the Templars as the cancer you claim they are. If I were to keep up the sickness anology then I see them as more of an immunity system that had simply become too strong. People boast about having a strong immune system but the truth is that an immune system that is too strong can lead to death as it will kill off healthy cells for no reason. I also don't see mages as a disease, if anything they are bacteria or cells(just in case someone has an issue with me calling mages bacterica), some are good and others are pathogens (or full of them), that feed on toxins and spread disease. The true cancer in Kirkwall would probably be that torn veil and blood mages and demon summoners are happily feasting on it.  The way I see it, you don't heal the body by killing off your immune system, it just has to be under control.

i dont understand wht your saying.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
While it's true that any fighting in the streets of Kirkwall is dangerous, it's important to note that it's not like escaping mages are going to go out of their way to harm the citizens of Kirkwall. With the City Guard helping the citizens I believe civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum. Any civilian casualties would still be tragic, I'm not saying they wouldn't be. But it's not like the mages are torching building and killing people at random just for the fun of it. The mages going full abomination will, but you end up fighting them no matter who you side with. The mages heading for the hills will most likely want to avoid calling any more attention to themselves then they already have.

It's true that many mages will not directly target the people of Kirkwall; although some might use their lifeforce to power blood spells; but this is like giving rocket launchers to untrained militia. Intentionally or not, people are bound to get hurt. Plus, as you said, the Veil is pretty much sundered at this point. Pride Demons are just passing through it al will which leads to many abominations, never mind that some mages will willingly summon them to protect themselves. The city guards just aren't equipped to deal with something like this.

Therefore, targeting the mages accomplishes three important objectives.
1-It makes the battle faster given the fact mages are less numerous than templars.
2-It removes the side causing the entirety of the collateral damage.
3-It prevents further Abominations.

It's true that some mages will attempt to escape but that is not the case with all. Hawke encounters mages fighting templars and s/he must make a choice.

I still disagree. Keep in this isn't a situation like the Magistrate's son (who, while not lynched by angry citizens, would probably have been if he were targeting humans) or the Arl's Son in Denerim at the beginning of the City Elf Origin in DA:O. This isn't just one person or a small group of people. This is a large population of mages that, in your hypothetical situation, have taken town all or most of the Templars. That's going to give the citizens a lot more pause before deciding to enact vigilante justice.

It needs not be something that happens all at once. The mages suddenly have nothing bidding them; the non-mages are scared and angry. Fights break out in the first day over Anders’ terrorism but are separated. That night, a group of young, reckless mages decides they need new furnishing at the Gallows and steal them. In the second night, some non-mages sneak into the home of a family who was happy to have their children freed and butcher them. Meanwhile, the nobles are either joining in or making a grab for the Viscount’s seat.
People start blaming each other. Tensions rise amidst both groups, each claiming that the other side will not stop until they’re all killed or chained again.
Well, you can see where this leads.

This is all beside the fact that I still disagree with you regarding the number of mages willing to stay in Kirkwall in your scenario. Templar reinforcements are coming. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when. The mages, keep in mind, aren't even in full rebellion at this point. It's an uprising or riot at best. Thus there's no reason to believe that the mages would think they have any realistic chance of taking a city and holding it. Some mages might stay in town, like you said they have family or whatever reason they might not want to leave. But I believe that number is inverted from your estimation, with most of the mages leaving and only a handful sticking around Kirkwall.

You must remember that we’re not talking about a small group of powerful mages who are content to hide in the Wilds. This is a community constituted of powerful mages, yes, but also young children and elderly. Neither of which are fit to survive in the wilds by themselves.
The templars will come but a mass exodus only means that they present a much larger target while if they managed to remain in Kirkwall, they would have the city’s defenses. Even if they left, where would they go? To Tevinter? That would mean crossing the entirety of the Free Marches.

What a bunch of ****ty assumptions.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

What a bunch of (silly) assumptions.

Who?  Me or MisterJB?

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 10 avril 2013 - 03:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

You bring up a very good comparasion.  But, If you are suffering from the flu would you only seek out meds to combat the virus itself or would you also like relief from its symptoms? A body that feels good is better able to heal than one left in pain regardless of whether or not you cure it. I can't see the Templars as the cancer you claim they are. If I were to keep up the sickness anology then I see them as more of an immunity system that had simply become too strong. People boast about having a strong immune system but the truth is that an immune system that is too strong can lead to death as it will kill off healthy cells for no reason. I also don't see mages as a disease, if anything they are bacteria or cells(just in case someone has an issue with me calling mages bacterica), some are good and others are pathogens (or full of them), that feed on toxins and spread disease. The true cancer in Kirkwall would probably be that torn veil and blood mages and demon summoners are happily feasting on it.  The way I see it, you don't heal the body by killing off your immune system, it just has to be under control. 

Some of us don't believe the templars are the solution. Allowing an anti-mage religious organization to have dominion over mages by divine right has caused problems for nearly a millennia. Not to mention that forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry has been condemned as slavery by some people, including the co-founder of Ferelden, Aldenon the Wise:

Codex of Freedom's Promise: When Calenhad returned at the head of the Ash Warriors as Aldenon expected, so as well did templars and Circle mages join our host. Aldenon was in a fury such as I've never seen. He wanted a kingdom of free men, of moral people beholden to law. Where a common man could tend his land safely and in peace. He lifted his staff and his voice echoed through the hills: "A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break—if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

Lazy Jer wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

What a bunch of (silly) assumptions.

Who?  Me or MisterJB? 

I'm pretty sure DK means MisterJB.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 avril 2013 - 04:28 .

[MisterJB]

I find it ridiculous that a person whose sole argument as to why mages are needed consists of the distant possiblity that one day, a threat that only mages can deal with might appear is attempting to lecture people on "silly assumptions".
But hey, I'm probrably overestimating DKJaigen's ability to comprehend this post given the fact he couldn't even understand Hazegurl's point.

[lil yonce]

I support Knight-Commander Meredith. That is all.

I might read through this thread later though.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I cannot possibly see ANY morality or justification for the Right of Annulment in Kirkwall. They didn't commit the crime, they didn't start the problems, as I've pointed out repeatedly in the past that blood mages only became a problem AFTER Meredith illegally became the defacto viscount and held that power for 3 years, and Meredith was looking for any reason to kill them anyway, as confirmed by Kerras in Act 3 when he says Meredith was trying to go over Elthina's head to get approval.

Meredith has NO moral ground to stand on, and neither does her Right of Annulment.

I'm not going to say that you are entirely wrong on your assertions. Despite that, I will say that simply comparing the number of blood mages and abominations in the first two acts and the number of said monsters in the third one will lead to erroneous conclusions. We meet a number of blood mages and abominations and hear their justification and, out of all of them, I believe that there is only one who can reasonably say he was driven to it by desperation and that is Alain.

However, that is not the point of the thread. You are arguing only that Meredith was wrong in calling the RoA which is not something I disagree with. What I am arguing in this thread is not Meredith's morality but Hawke's after the KC has already called for the RoA.
To summarize, I believe that supporting the Templars will lead to more innocent lives being saved than if Hawke were to support the mages which is why I believe it's the right decisions. For more details, please read the OP.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

I find it ridiculous that a person whose sole argument as to why mages are needed consists of the distant possiblity that one day, a threat that only mages can deal with might appear is attempting to lecture people on "silly assumptions".
But hey, I'm probrably overestimating DKJaigen's ability to comprehend this post given the fact he couldn't even understand Hazegurl's point.

Maybe DK has read your attempts to vilify the elves for refusing to allow themselves to be invaded by the Chantry of Andraste and the Orlesian Empire.

[MisterJB]

First, 100% unrelated.
Second, complete misrepresentation of my arguments which I will not repeat here for fear of overtaking the thread.
If I wanted to discuss the elves, I would go to your thread but In Exile's doing a pretty good job.

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...


i dont understand wht your saying.

What I'm saying is that if Kirkwall was a sick person the torn veil would be the cancer it suffers from not the Templars. The mages are like cells, some are good and others are full of pathogens that feed off the cancer and spread disease within the body that is Kirkwall.  The Templars are just simply acting accordingly. They see a threat and is trying to neutralize it but became overzealous along the way and began attacking good mages along with the infected ones. The same as an immune system that has become too strong. Even so, the solution is NOT to kill Templars as they are still a vital defense in stopping mages that feed on the negative energy in Kirkwall. The Templars just need to be kept in check and they can be through proper leadership.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Some of us don't believe the templars are the solution. Allowing an anti-mage religious organization to have dominion over mages by divine right has caused problems for nearly a millennia. Not to mention that forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry has been condemned as slavery by some people, including the co-founder of Ferelden, Aldenon the Wise:

Codex of Freedom's Promise: When Calenhad returned at the head of the Ash Warriors as Aldenon expected, so as well did templars and Circle mages join our host. Aldenon was in a fury such as I've never seen. He wanted a kingdom of free men, of moral people beholden to law. Where a common man could tend his land safely and in peace. He lifted his staff and his voice echoed through the hills: "A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break—if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

You're right, there needs to be a change and I am all for it but to eliminate the Templars is ridiculous and quite honestly Aldenon is dreaming of some idealistic utopia that cannot exist. How can the common man tend to his land in safety if some mages purposefully thin the veil in his area causing the land to become unsafe to live? Should mages be granted the freedom to use their magic anywhere they see fit and be damned with the consequences just so they would feel free?

I agree that they should not be in some forced servitude to the Chantry but they do need some restrictions and mundanes do need the Templars.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

First, 100% unrelated.
Second, complete misrepresentation of my arguments which I will not repeat here for fear of overtaking the thread.
If I wanted to discuss the elves, I would go to your thread but In Exile's doing a pretty good job.

Your "arguments" were a complete misrepresentation of what the other side thought. And I'm not sure why you're surprised that DK disagrees with you when your OP is that you're protecting more people by helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children than you are by protecting hundreds of people from being killed because Meredith is a genodical lunatic.

Also, there's a prime example of where DK's suggestion can come into place: the next Blight. Duncan already noted that mages can deal with clusters of darkspawn through their magical abilities, and he wanted to station a mage with every regiment. There's also Avernus' research into the taint, which might prove essential into unlocking answers and secrets that could turn the tide in the war against the darkspawn.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

I find it ridiculous that a person whose sole argument as to why mages are needed consists of the distant possiblity that one day, a threat that only mages can deal with might appear is attempting to lecture people on "silly assumptions".
But hey, I'm probrably overestimating DKJaigen's ability to comprehend this post given the fact he couldn't even understand Hazegurl's point.

Darkspawn alone are not a distant possiblity and their plenty of other questions that need answering . Your entire basis for your support of the templars is that mages are stupid and evil .Not to mention you completely ignore the fact that the templar order is causing a lot of unrest themselves and will likely cause a civil war inside of kirkwall when hawke is not around.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


i dont understand wht your saying.

What I'm saying is that if Kirkwall was a sick person the torn veil would be the cancer it suffers from not the Templars. The mages are like cells, some are good and others are full of pathogens that feed off the cancer and spread disease within the body that is Kirkwall.  The Templars are just simply acting accordingly. They see a threat and is trying to neutralize it but became overzealous along the way and began attacking good mages along with the infected ones. The same as an immune system that has become too strong. Even so, the solution is NOT to kill Templars as they are still a vital defense in stopping mages that feed on the negative energy in Kirkwall. The Templars just need to be kept in check and they can be through proper leadership.

No idea how this has any relation on what im saying

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your "arguments" were a complete misrepresentation of what the other side thought.

No, no they weren't.

And I'm not sure why you're surprised that DK disagrees with you when your OP is that you're protecting more people by helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children than you are by protecting hundreds of people from being killed because Meredith is a genodical lunatic.

People can disagree with me all they want. But if someone who insists on using baseless assumptions suddenly starts acting condescent towards myself if I predict outcomes with strong foundations on fact, then I have the right to call him out on it.

Also, the act of killing hundreds of people does not make it impossible to save thousands of people through the very same act.

Also, there's a prime example of where DK's suggestion can come into
place: the next Blight. Duncan already noted that mages can deal with
clusters of darkspawn through their magical abilities, and he wanted to
station a mage with every regiment. There's also Avernus' research into
the taint, which might prove essential into unlocking answers and
secrets that could turn the tide in the war against the darkspawn.

Darkspawn are not some steel-immune creatures who can only be killed through magic. Cutting off their heads will kill them just as quickly as a magical bolt.
Therefore, the mages are helpful in dealing with Blights, not essential. There is a difference.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


i dont understand wht your saying.

What I'm saying is that if Kirkwall was a sick person the torn veil would be the cancer it suffers from not the Templars. The mages are like cells, some are good and others are full of pathogens that feed off the cancer and spread disease within the body that is Kirkwall.  The Templars are just simply acting accordingly. They see a threat and is trying to neutralize it but became overzealous along the way and began attacking good mages along with the infected ones. The same as an immune system that has become too strong. Even so, the solution is NOT to kill Templars as they are still a vital defense in stopping mages that feed on the negative energy in Kirkwall. The Templars just need to be kept in check and they can be through proper leadership.

No idea how this has any relation on what im saying

Truth be told I think you two sort of agree on what's being said.  Earlier DK said that the Templars in Kirkwall needed to and be replaced with Templars who take their job more seriously.  What Hazegurl appears to be saying is that the Templars in Kirkwall have overstepped their bounds, but that removing every single Templar is not the answer.

Correct me if I'm mischaracterizing anything, folks.

Both points indicate that there was something seriously wrong with the Templar Order in Kirkwall and (stuff) has GOT to change.  And both points do involve the replacing of the corrupted Templars with different ones.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...
Darkspawn are not some steel-immune creatures who can only be killed through magic. Cutting off their heads will kill them just as quickly as a magical bolt.
Therefore, the mages are helpful in dealing with Blights, not essential. There is a difference.

If mages are not technically essential to fighting a blight then they're at least damn near essential in my estimation.  Bare in mind if you are facing down a darkspawn horde with no mages then you have no massive damage spells being cast and no healing spells being cast.  This is a severe handicap since, during a blight, the darkspawn will just about always outnumber the forces opposing it.

To analogize, a blight is kind of like making a trip from Los Angeles to Chicago.  Doing with mages is a bit like making the journey in a 1987 Mazda 323.  Doing without mages is like making the journey on a 10 speed bicycle.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Let’s go step by step: Anders murders Elthina in an extremely noticeable and magical fashion. This was done on purpose. He wished to force a confrontation between mages and non-mages by making the people of Kirkwall see their beloved Grand Cleric murdered by a mage. Meredith made a mistake in biting the bait but this is not something that Hawke can influence. She has called for the Right of Annulment and there is no way Hawke can dissuade her from this path. All Hawke can do is choose between helping or opposing her.

I think Meredith's call for annulment is defensible. I wrote this months ago in an argument with TWER--

Kirkwall continues to be a stage where high profile uses of forbidden magics are acted upon. Certainly the recent, and highly referenced, murder of Leandra Amell, mother of the Champion of Kirkwall, is noteworthy. The books and letter found in the Blood-Mage's lair could be evidence enough to condemn the Circle of Magi. The codex identifies it as a "Letter from the Circle", so it must have had a distinguishing mark. 

Since the letter does not reveal the identity of the sender, Meredith can not punish only the offending mage, and even if she could, she could not know if his knowledge had spread to other Mages-- This mage managed to sneak secret tomes out of the Circle and into the hands of a maleficar, after all. Would he truly have difficulty spreading knowledge within the Circle, itself? 

Moreover, Meredith would understand that a mage actively studying the forbidden arts must be of relatively high status, likely an Enchanter, to access restricted tomes, and an Enchanter would have many apprentices studying under him. Corruption on a large scale is more than plausible.

And Grace's Conspiracy Group--  Ser Thrask was murdered during their biggest rally, and funnily, his death is the blame of a crazy Circle blood mage. That strengthens Meredith's legitimacy and reinforces her strict policies, I think. Mages were indeed practicing blood magic in her Circle. She has the evidence she needs.

And Meredith can't turn her blande against the City to protect the Mages from an angry mob as Viscountess. It's dangerous territory for a leader. That's a real issue. A very practical justification for RoA. Which duty is more important-- Her duty as a Templar or her duty as Viscoutess? She could destroy Kirkwall if she turns her army against its citizens in defense of the Circle.

EDIT: And I don't think she was "taking the bait". I think she was capitalizing on the situaiton. I believe she had wanted to annul the Circle for some time and hadn't only because Elthina resisted confrontation. Anders' actions simply provided the perfect opportunity to do so.

2-Hawke might win. In order to do so, Hawke must defeat the templars which means either killing them all or reducing them to a number where they will no longer present a threat.

Impossible IMO. The Templars are an army with magic nullifying abilities. The Circle can do nothing against them. I can't image Hawke can kill every Templar in Kirkwall.

Check the sig. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 11 avril 2013 - 12:27 .

[Lazy Jer]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think Meredith's call annulment is defensible. I wrote this months ago in an argument with TWER--

Kirkwall continues to be a stage where high profile uses of forbidden magics are acted upon. Certainly the recent, and highly referenced, murder of Leandra Amell, mother of the Champion of Kirkwall, is noteworthy. The books and letter found in the Blood-Mage's lair could be evidence enough to condemn the Circle of Magi. The codex identifies it as a "Letter from the Circle", so it must have had a distinguishing mark. 

Since the letter does not reveal the identity of the sender, Meredith can not punish only the offending mage, and even if she could, she could not know if his knowledge had spread to other Mages-- This mage managed to sneak secret tomes out of the Circle and into the hands of a maleficar, after all. Would he truly have difficulty spreading knowledge within the Circle, itself? 

Moreover, Meredith would understand that a mage actively studying the forbidden arts must be of relatively high status, likely an Enchanter, to access restricted tomes, and an Enchanter would have many apprentices studying under him. Corruption on a large scale is more than plausible.

And Grace's Conspiracy Group--  Ser Thrask was murdered during their biggest rally, and funnily, his death is the blame of a crazy Circle blood mage. That strengthens Meredith's legitimacy and reinforces her strict policies, I think. Mages were indeed practicing blood magic in her Circle. She has the evidence she needs.

And Meredith can't turn her blande against the City to protect the Mages from an angry mob as Viscountess. It's dangerous territory for a leader. That's a real issue. A very practical justification for RoA. Which duty is more important-- Her duty as a Templar or her duty as Viscoutess? She could destroy Kirkwall if she turns her army against its citizens in defense of the Circle.

Allow me to be the first person on this thread to disagree with you (I'm expecting a bunch as is typical with just about any opinion on anything involving mages or the Templars. )

First.  Evidence of blood magic alone is not justification for using the Rite of Annulment.  If there is blood magic going on in the Circle that requires investigation, certainly.  It will be a difficult job and would require a lot of patience, a firm hand, a diplomatic mind and the cooperation of the mages you're attempting to protect.  Unfortunately Meredith only had the firm hand.  The Rite of Annulment there in cases where the Circle is literally out of all reasonable attempts to control it.  Greigor only calls for it in DA:O because abominations are roaming that halls.  The mere presence of blood magic isn't a justification to just bump off the whole circle.  If it was Elthina would have approved it.

Second, Meredith had no business being Viscountess.  She took control during after the last Viscount had been killed, but several years later when things had calmed down she retained de facto viscountship and refused any attempts to return control to the parties that it should have gone to.

Third, there wasn't any mob of villagers.  She told everyone there would be a mob and called for the RoA before one could form.  So using a mob of angry Kirkwallers to justify the Rite of Annulment is meaningless since there weren't any.  If there were it still wouldn't be a justification for the RoA.  It would be justification for the declaration of curfews and the city guard dispersing rowdy crowds of Kirkwallers at best.

2-Hawke might win. In order to do so, Hawke must defeat the templars which means either killing them all or reducing them to a number where they will no longer present a threat.

Impossible IMO. The Templars are an army with magic nullifying abilities. The Circle can do nothing against them. I can't image Hawke can kill every Templar in Kirkwall.

Check the sig. 

We agree on that.  Hawke defending the mages was basically just to give them time to get the heck out of Kirkwall.

[Hazegurl]

Lazy Jer wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


i dont understand wht your saying.

What I'm saying is that if Kirkwall was a sick person the torn veil would be the cancer it suffers from not the Templars. The mages are like cells, some are good and others are full of pathogens that feed off the cancer and spread disease within the body that is Kirkwall.  The Templars are just simply acting accordingly. They see a threat and is trying to neutralize it but became overzealous along the way and began attacking good mages along with the infected ones. The same as an immune system that has become too strong. Even so, the solution is NOT to kill Templars as they are still a vital defense in stopping mages that feed on the negative energy in Kirkwall. The Templars just need to be kept in check and they can be through proper leadership.

No idea how this has any relation on what im saying

Truth be told I think you two sort of agree on what's being said.  Earlier DK said that the Templars in Kirkwall needed to and be replaced with Templars who take their job more seriously.  What Hazegurl appears to be saying is that the Templars in Kirkwall have overstepped their bounds, but that removing every single Templar is not the answer.

Correct me if I'm mischaracterizing anything, folks.

Both points indicate that there was something seriously wrong with the Templar Order in Kirkwall and (stuff) has GOT to change.  And both points do involve the replacing of the corrupted Templars with different ones.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

You're right. That's why I told him he made a good point.
I only disagree with him calling Templars a cancer. They just need decent leaders who can correct and/or prevent bad behavior, and also properly punish Templars who step out of bounds.