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[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...
I think Meredith's call annulment is defensible. I wrote this months ago in an argument with TWER--

Kirkwall continues to be a stage where high profile uses of forbidden magics are acted upon. Certainly the recent, and highly referenced, murder of Leandra Amell, mother of the Champion of Kirkwall, is noteworthy. The books and letter found in the Blood-Mage's lair could be evidence enough to condemn the Circle of Magi. The codex identifies it as a "Letter from the Circle", so it must have had a distinguishing mark. 

Since the letter does not reveal the identity of the sender, Meredith can not punish only the offending mage, and even if she could, she could not know if his knowledge had spread to other Mages-- This mage managed to sneak secret tomes out of the Circle and into the hands of a maleficar, after all. Would he truly have difficulty spreading knowledge within the Circle, itself? 

Moreover, Meredith would understand that a mage actively studying the forbidden arts must be of relatively high status, likely an Enchanter, to access restricted tomes, and an Enchanter would have many apprentices studying under him. Corruption on a large scale is more than plausible.

And Grace's Conspiracy Group--  Ser Thrask was murdered during their biggest rally, and funnily, his death is the blame of a crazy Circle blood mage. That strengthens Meredith's legitimacy and reinforces her strict policies, I think. Mages were indeed practicing blood magic in her Circle. She has the evidence she needs.

And Meredith can't turn her blande against the City to protect the Mages from an angry mob as Viscountess. It's dangerous territory for a leader. That's a real issue. A very practical justification for RoA. Which duty is more important-- Her duty as a Templar or her duty as Viscoutess? She could destroy Kirkwall if she turns her army against its citizens in defense of the Circle.

EDIT: And I don't think she was "taking the bait". I think she was capitalizing on the situaiton. I believe she had wanted to annul the Circle for some time and hadn't only because Elthina resisted confrontation. Anders' actions simply provided the perfect opportunity to do so.

I agree, you actually dig a bit deeper into the matter than just protecting the city or mages. I hadn't considered the access to restricted tomes that perhaps only a First Enchanter could get ahold of. If I was Meredith I may want to annul the circle myself.  Orsino may have felt the RoA was unjust but his own actions did nothing but condemn the other mages.

[lil yonce]

Lazy Jer wrote...

First.  Evidence of blood magic alone is not justification for using the Rite of Annulment.  If there is blood magic going on in the Circle that requires investigation, certainly.  It will be a difficult job and would require a lot of patience, a firm hand, a diplomatic mind and the cooperation of the mages you're attempting to protect.  Unfortunately Meredith only had the firm hand.  The Rite of Annulment there in cases where the Circle is literally out of all reasonable attempts to control it.  Greigor only calls for it in DA:O because abominations are roaming that halls.  The mere presence of blood magic isn't a justification to just bump off the whole circle.  If it was Elthina would have approved it.

It is reason enough. Maleficarum are made tranquil or slain on suspicion or confirmation. The absolutely legitimate suspicison of widespread corruption would be reason enough to call the RoA. There is no fool proof way to discern a blood mage from others yet something should be done. It is a hard stance but defensible.

And Meredith has been firm. She is very strict. Orsino won't cooperate with her. He opens Act 3 stating he is done cooperating if Hawke reminds him he fights Meredith at every turn. I doubt an attempted investigation would yield anything. She has likely tried to conduct one and been rebuffed by Orsino and his cries of oppression to Elthina. The mages will follow the First Enchanter's lead. He agrees to submit only after Anders destroys the Chantry-- murdering the only leash on Meredith. He should have used his position more wisely.

Second, Meredith had no business being Viscountess.  She took control during after the last Viscount had been killed, but several years later when things had calmed down she retained de facto viscountship and refused any attempts to return control to the parties that it should have gone to.

She has every business being Viscountess. She has the army to control Kirkwall. She controls Dumar to a degree. I think there is a very good reason she hasn't been challenged. Kirkwall has no standing army. It is a valuable port city that cannot protect itself from the competitive and often warring city-states of the Free Marches. The Templars are their only recourse.

Forcing Meredith from office would anger her and she could easily deny the next Viscout a guarantee of martial protection. Good luck on your own Kirkwall. Meredith's contingent is the largest army in the City. The largest unit of Templars in Thedas-- and Kirkwall has historically relied on Templar defense. The City Guard is incomparable. The Act 2 Qunari invasion demonstrates their numbers are still insufficient. Aveline is relieved to find Meredith battling Quanri in Hightown with a group of Templars at her side. 

Like Dumar, the new Viscount must take foreign policy seriously to remain in power. Meredith and her Templars are your only option.

Third, there wasn't any mob of villagers.  She told everyone there would be a mob and called for the RoA before one could form.  So using a mob of angry Kirkwallers to justify the Rite of Annulment is meaningless since there weren't any.  If there were it still wouldn't be a justification for the RoA.  It would be justification for the declaration of curfews and the city guard dispersing rowdy crowds of Kirkwallers at best.

Yet. Had she not acted swiftly there would have been an angry mob damaging the city. The slaying of a popular Grand Cleric by a mage would not go unnoticed. Not in Kirkwall. Elthina's unpunished murder would easily spark a riot.

We agree on that. Hawke defending the mages was basically just to give them time to get the heck out of Kirkwall.

I don't think it did even that. The mages with Orsino return to the Gallows to galvanize the others and fight. Meredith and her Templars are behind them. She occupies the courtyard the entire battle with a very large group of Templars sending in another group to annul the Circle. No mage is getting out of there alive. I can't imagine how they could. The Templars come for a Pro-Mage Hawke and Orsino. The annulment is swiftly completed.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 11 avril 2013 - 05:46 .

[GeminiParadox]

Both the Circle and the Templars had their good and bad apples. The Templars had rotten people like Ser Alrik, and most of the evil mages were apostates. The Circle also contained innocent people like Ella. I could never support killing innocent people. That would make Hawke no better than Anders. Mages may be better off in the Circle; that's up for debate. But Hawke the way I roleplay her would not condemn innocent people to die for the actions of a single terrorist.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

It is reason enough. Maleficarum are made tranquil or slain on suspicion or confirmation. The absolutely legitimate suspicison of widespread corruption would be reason enough to call the RoA. There is no fool proof way to discern a blood mage from others yet something should be done. It is a hard stance but defensible.

And Meredith has been firm. She is very strict. Orsino won't cooperate with her. He opens Act 3 stating he is done cooperating if Hawke reminds him he fights Meredith at every turn. I doubt an attempted investigation would yield anything. She has likely tried to conduct one and been rebuffed by Orsino and his cries of oppression to Elthina. The mages will follow the First Enchanter's lead. He agrees to submit only after Anders destroys the Chantry-- murdering the only leash on Meredith. He should have used his position more wisely.
[/quote]

Suspicion may be a defensible position for someone who actually had the authority to enact the RoA, but Meredith didn't.  The Knight-Commander doesn't have the authority to call for Annullment.  I once again go back to Greigor's reaction abominations litterally wandering the halls of the Circle in Ferelden.  He initiates a lock-down and calls for the Rite of Annulment.  He had a lot more justification for his beliefs then Meredith did and even he just implemented a lock-down on the Circle and waited for permission.  Meredith didn't.  She saw that her one obstacle, i.e. Elthina, had been killed and called for annulment.

And Meredith did have a firm hand, but she lacked all the other qualities I mentioned, and made up for it be having an even firmer hand then that.

[quote]She has every business being Viscountess. She has the army to control Kirkwall. She controls Dumar to a degree. I think there is a very good reason she hasn't been challenged. Kirkwall has no standing army. It is a valuable port city that cannot protect itself from the competitive and often warring city-states of the Free Marches. The Templars are their only recourse.

Forcing Meredith from office would anger her and she could easily deny the next Viscout a guarantee of martial protection. Good luck on your own Kirkwall. Meredith's contingent is the largest army in the City. The largest unit of Templars in Thedas-- and Kirkwall has historically relied on Templar defense. The City Guard is incomparable. The Act 2 Qunari invasion demonstrates their numbers are still insufficient. Aveline is relieved to find Meredith battling Quanri in Hightown with a group of Templars at her side.

Like Dumar, the new Viscount must take foreign policy seriously to remain in power. Meredith and her Templars are your only option.[/quote]

But she is challenged.  Orsino challenges her on this respect at the beginning of Act 3.  Orsino's not even talking about mage oppression, he's talking about her continuing to de facto rulership of the city.  If you talk to the folks gathered around the square they, too, believe that Meredith should step down.  As far as Meredith and her templars being an army, well the people who are likely to actually attack Kirkwall are all people who Meredith has a vested interest, as Knight-Commander in not taking Kirkwall.  The Qunari have no reason to keep the Chantry or the Templar Order around.  They believe the Chant of Light is a lie and they have their own harsh way of dealing mages.  Who else is going to try and take Kirkwall?  The other Free Marsh cities?  The Orlesians?  Tevinter?  I doubt any one of them would try.  Thus Meredith's military power is only used to keep the Kirkwallians in line.

If Meredith really wanted to be Viscount, then she should have stepped down as Knight-Commander and allowed Cullen to step forward (who, while harsh, wasn't out of his flippin' gorde).  Being both de facto Viscount and Knight-Commander put too much power in the hands of one person.  The result is inevitable corruption.

[quoteYet. Had she not acted swiftly there would have been an angry mob that damaging the city. The slaying of a popular Grand Cleric by a mage would not go unnoticed. Not in Kirkwall. Elthina's unpunished murder would easily spark a riot.[/quote]

We don't know that.  Meredith didn't even wait for the cinders to cool before calling for the Rite of Annulment.  The people of Kirkwall didn't even have time to get out of the "what the heck was that?" phase.  Anway who says that the murder is unpunished.  This depends a lot on you choices at the end, but I myself gave Anders the last acupuncture treatment he'll ever need (i.e. I killed him).  The person who actually did the deed has been killed, so how is that unpunished?  IF the riot occurs, though, it's still unfair to punish the Circle Mages for the actions of Anders.  As templars, their job is to protect mages from that kind of thing.

[quote]I don't think it did even that. The mages with Orsino return to the Gallows to galvanize the others and fight. Meredith and her Templars are behind them. She occupies the courtyard the entire battle with a very large group of Templars sending in another group to annul the Circle. No mage is getting out of there alive. I can't imagine how they could. The Templars come for a Pro-Mage Hawke and Orsino. The annulment is swiftly completed.
[/quote]

Some mages stay, but Orsino does make a point of telling the mages to get out of Dodge.  I think it's likely enough, given that there are at least two entrences to the gallows (one from the docks in Kirkwall and the other from where Hawke, Aveline and family first enter Kirkwall) that a good number of them could have gotten out.  But I'm going to avoid arguing that point because this post is already a wall of text.

[lil yonce]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Suspicion may be a defensible position for someone who actually had the authority to enact the RoA, but Meredith didn't. The Knight-Commander doesn't have the authority to call for Annullment.  I once again go back to Greigor's reaction abominations litterally wandering the halls of the Circle in Ferelden. He initiates a lock-down and calls for the Rite of Annulment. He had a lot more justification for his beliefs then Meredith did and even he just implemented a lock-down on the Circle and waited for permission. Meredith didn't. She saw that her one obstacle, i.e. Elthina, had been killed and called for annulment.

He doesn't act because there aren't enough Templars to combat the situation. "I would destroy the Circle-- raze it to the ground-- but I cannot risk more of my men. The doors remain shut and they will protect us for now. I have sent word to Denerim calling for reinforcements and the RoA." Asking permission for the RoA is an afterthought.

And Meredith has the authority to call the RoA after Elthina's death.

David Gaider wrote...

Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed. This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so.

-----

And Meredith did have a firm hand, but she lacked all the other qualities I mentioned, and made up for it be having an even firmer hand then that.

Orsino would not cooperate with her. How much patience should she have? Firmness is all she can rely on.

But she is challenged. Orsino challenges her on this respect at the beginning of Act 3.  Orsino's not even talking about mage oppression, he's talking about her continuing to de facto rulership of the city. If you talk to the folks gathered around the square they, too, believe that Meredith should step down.

Not it my playthrough. I sided with Meredith at the begining of Act 3. If you talk to the Nobles in the Hightown Square they believe Orsino should shut up.

"That elf should hang for daring to speak against the Knight-Commander."
"Those robes are always trying to change our minds. They shouldn't be allowed to speak in public."
"Those magicals need to be taught a lesson."
"We're not safe while mages walk the streets."

As far as Meredith and her templars being an army, well the people who are likely to actually attack Kirkwall are all people who Meredith has a vested interest, as Knight-Commander in not taking Kirkwall.  The Qunari have no reason to keep the Chantry or the Templar Order around.  They believe the Chant of Light is a lie and they have their own harsh way of dealing mages.  Who else is going to try and take Kirkwall?  The other Free Marsh cities?  The Orlesians?  Tevinter?  I doubt any one of them would try.  Thus Meredith's military power is only used to keep the Kirkwallians in line.

The bolded. They would all try. Read the codex entries on the History of Kirkwall and read The Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries for insight. Everyone wants Kirkwall's port. You control trade if you have it. For the Tevinter Imperium it was once the center of their slave trade and the center of their magical experimentation. It has even greater value to them.

Additionally, the relationship between the city-states of the Free Marches was mentioned in a livestream.

Question: "Is Kirkwall independent now? Is there are prominent nationality?

Answer: "The Free Marches is a loose association of City-States. Something like the Holy Roman Empire-- a loose association of states. In northern Italy during Medieval times there were City-States. That's similar here. Kirkwall is a City-State. It's ruled by a Viscount. All the other cities you see that are on the Thedas map-- in the Free Marches-- are recently independent. Basically, they ban together when there is an outside enemy threat. When there is no outside enemy-- then they fight amongst each other. That's how they roll."

If Meredith really wanted to be Viscount, then she should have stepped down as Knight-Commander and allowed Cullen to step forward (who, while harsh, wasn't out of his flippin' gorde).  Being both de facto Viscount and Knight-Commander put too much power in the hands of one person.  The result is inevitable corruption.

Not going to happen. She has authority as Viscount because she is the Knight-Commander. Because it is her army.

We don't know that.  Meredith didn't even wait for the cinders to cool before calling for the Rite of Annulment.

She should wait for an angry mob to accuse her of inaction before acting? Its inevitable. Inaction lead to the the 1992 LA riots. Not an identical situation but inaction or the wrong action against an angry population is not helpful.

The people of Kirkwall didn't even have time to get out of the "what the heck was that?" phase.  Anway who says that the murder is unpunished.  This depends a lot on you choices at the end, but I myself gave Anders the last acupuncture treatment he'll ever need (i.e. I killed him).  The person who actually did the deed has been killed, so how is that unpunished?  IF the riot occurs, though, it's still unfair to punish the Circle Mages for the actions of Anders.  As templars, their job is to protect mages from that kind of thing.

The mages will be condemed by the people collectively.

For example, in Asunder Knight-Captain Evangeline stops in a village with the three mages under her supervison Rhys, Wynne, and Adrian. The townspeople are livid and on the verge of confrontation the moment they walk into the tavern. This was after the assassination attempt on the Divine.

[...]
"And what are we going to toast? the man growled. "You mages trying to kill Her Holiness?"
"We had nothing to do with that."
"But it was your stinking magic that done it! Her Holiness had a right mind, she'd tell everyone to string you up! Burn your curse out of this world once and for all!"

Everyone in the tavern held that view and they very nearly acted on their hatred. Kirkwall is that situation intesified a thousand times. Meredith as little choice as the acting Viscountess. She'd look horrible as a ruler if she allowed her citizens burn down the city in anger. She certainly can't turn her blade against them and certainly not in defense of the Circle of Magi. Political suicide. That would be the one action surely to see her removed from office. I don't think she could recover from that.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 11 avril 2013 - 02:31 .

[Lazy Jer]

Youth4Ever wrote...

He doesn't act because there aren't enough Templars to combat the situation. "I would destroy the Circle-- raze it to the ground-- but I cannot risk more of my men. The doors remain shut and they will protect us for now. I have sent word to Denerim calling for reinforcements and the RoA." Asking permission for the RoA is an afterthought.

And Meredith has the authority to call the RoA after Elthina's death.

David Gaider wrote...

Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed. This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so.

But it's still a thought.  He still wouldn't proceed without it.  The difference is that the Divine wouldn't chew Greigor out for doing it, the situation was clearly out of hand.  Meredith was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer.  To not wait was an abuse of the system in order to further her own paranoid delusions.  Meredith wasn't fit to command, otherwise Ser Thrask wouldn't have tried to over throw her.  Even Cullen started having his doubts.  So maybe she did have legal authority...but it was on a shoestring and a pig spit technicality.
-----

Orsino would not cooperate with her. How much patience should she have? Firmness is all she can rely on.

 

On the flip side, how much patience could Orsino have had.  It's not like Meredith wasn't contributing to the problems.  The Circle/Templar situation resulted in both sides not backing down.  Meredith was in the midst of lyrium fueled paranoia.  I don't doubt that Orsino had a hand in things getting crazy in Act 3, but I'm not going to sit here and paint Meredith as Mr. Rogers asking the mages nicely to do what she said.  Her firm hand was what started the problems in the first place.  If someone fairly reasonable had been in command things wouldn't have gotten to that level.  The only reason she could only rely on her firm hand is because she was on the edge of sanity to begin with and was tipped over by the lyrium idol.

Not it my playthrough. I sided with Meredith at the begining of Act 3. If you talk to the Nobles in the Hightown Square they believe Orsino should shut up.

"That elf should hang for daring to speak against the Knight-Commander."
"Those robes are always trying to change our minds. They shouldn't be allowed to speak in public."
"Those magicals need to be taught a lesson."
"We're not safe while mages walk the streets."

Well okay.  But she still is opposed.  There's still an entire quest that you can get where one of the nobles is trying to get rid of Meredith. 

The bolded. They would all try. Read the codex entries on the History of Kirkwall and read The Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries for insight. Everyone wants Kirkwall's port. You control trade if you have it. For the Tevinter Imperium it was once the center of their slave trade and the center of their magical experimentation. It has even greater value to them.

Additionally, the relationship between the city-states of the Free Marches was mentioned in a livestream.

Question: "Is Kirkwall independent now? Is there are prominent nationality?

Answer: "The Free Marches is a loose association of City-States. Something like the Holy Roman Empire-- a loose association of states. In northern Italy during Medieval times there were City-States. That's similar here. Kirkwall is a City-State. It's ruled by a Viscount. All the other cities you see that are on the Thedas map-- in the Free Marches-- are recently independent. Basically, they ban together when there is an outside enemy threat. When there is no outside enemy-- then they fight amongst each other. That's how they roll."

That still doesn't give her the legal authority to assume the roll of Viscount.

If Meredith really wanted to be Viscount, then she should have stepped down as Knight-Commander and allowed Cullen to step forward (who, while harsh, wasn't out of his flippin' gorde).  Being both de facto Viscount and Knight-Commander put too much power in the hands of one person.  The result is inevitable corruption.

Not going to happen. She has authority as Viscount because she is the Knight-Commander. Because it is her army.

No she doesn't.  Having the biggest army doesn't give you the legal authority to be Viscount.  She only had authority to take over because Kirkwall was under the direct threat of a Qunari invasion.  Once things settled down she had no right, per the laws of Kirkwall, to be Viscount.  If she doesn't abide by the laws of Kirkwall and take the office of Viscount legitimately that makes her as much an invader as the Qunari.

And the balance of power requires her to either choose Knight-Commander or Viscount.  Otherwise it's too much power in one person's hands.  That's why there's a Viscount and a Guard Captain.  That's why there's a Grand Cleric and a Knight-Commander.  Power needs to be balanced or the person with all the power becomes corrupt and there's no one to check her if she goes on a lyrium-fueled paranoid rampage around the city looking for blood mages where none exist.

She should wait for an angry mob to accuse her of inaction before acting? Its inevitable. Inaction lead to the the 1992 LA riots. Not an identical situation but inaction or the wrong action against an angry population is not helpful.

Not going to comment on the L.A. riot portion, as it violates my policy of bringing real-world situations into discussions on the forum boards.

And frankly, yes, she should wait for the angry mob to form.  Otherwise you can use "angry mob" to justify any screwed up action anyone in power should care to use.  "We're going to torch the Alienage, to prevent an angry mob from forming because of the Arl's son.", "We're going to kill all the Ferelden refugees in the city to prevent an angry mob from forming due to the Ferelden refugee Anders' actions."

An angry mob is a matter for the City Guard anyway, and can be put down without loss of life.  Furthermore, it's the job of the Templars to protect the Circle from angry mobs.  Thus you can't use "angry mob' as a justification for the Rite of Annulment.

The mages will be condemed by the people collectively.

For example, in Asunder Knight-Captain Evangeline stops in a village with the three mages under her supervison Rhys, Wynne, and Adrian. The townspeople are livid and on the verge of confrontation the moment they walk into the tavern. This was after the assassination attempt on the Divine.

[...]
"And what are we going to toast? the man growled. "You mages trying to kill Her Holiness?"
"We had nothing to do with that."
"But it was your stinking magic that done it! Her Holiness had a right mind, she'd tell everyone to string you up! Burn your curse out of this world once and for all!"

Everyone in the tavern held that view and they very nearly acted on their hatred. Kirkwall is that situation intesified a thousand times. Meredith as little choice as the acting Viscountess. She'd look horrible as a ruler if she allowed her citizens burn down the city in anger. She certainly can't turn her blade against them and certainly not in defense of the Circle of Magi. Political suicide. That would be the one action surely to see her removed from office. I don't think she could recover from that.

Politics shouldn't enter into it.  If she wants to be Viscount she has to run the city by the laws of Kirkwall, not the law of mob rule.  When things like this happen it's a leaders job to tell the crowd "Yes this happened, yes we will find the guilty party and yes we will punish them."  Basically this is the reason she can't be both Viscount and Knight-Commander.  Her duty as Knight-Commander is to protect the mages, the duty of the Viscount is to protect and rule the city of Kirkwall.  If she can't do one duty without abandoning the other then she has no business doing both.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your "arguments" were a complete misrepresentation of what the other side thought.

No, no they weren't.

Considering that you made claims about things that no one actually said, I'm not sure how you can seriously state that.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And I'm not sure why you're surprised that DK disagrees with you when your OP is that you're protecting more people by helping Meredith kill hundreds of men, women, and children than you are by protecting hundreds of people from being killed because Meredith is a genodical lunatic.

People can disagree with me all they want. But if someone who insists on using baseless assumptions suddenly starts acting condescent towards myself if I predict outcomes with strong foundations on fact, then I have the right to call him out on it.

Also, the act of killing hundreds of people does not make it impossible to save thousands of people through the very same act.

The problem is you're using your assumptions and claiming they are facts.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, there's a prime example of where DK's suggestion can come into place: the next Blight. Duncan already noted that mages can deal with clusters of darkspawn through their magical abilities, and he wanted to station a mage with every regiment. There's also Avernus' research into the taint, which might prove essential into unlocking answers and secrets that could turn the tide in the war against the darkspawn.

Darkspawn are not some steel-immune creatures who can only be killed through magic. Cutting off their heads will kill them just as quickly as a magical bolt.
Therefore, the mages are helpful in dealing with Blights, not essential. There is a difference. 

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Suffice to say, it is relevant. If I have seen that the Order has not done their job properly in the past, then I cannot entrust them to the future of Kirkwall's Circle or Kirkwall proper either. If they had done their duty properly, tensions would not have escalated so high. If they had done their duty properly, the city would be safe from most magical threats if not all of them.[/quote]
I consider the question of whether or not Kirkwall's Chapter has done their duties satisfactorily to be irrelevant in the context of this given that it has no effect on the current situation which is mages burning the city to the ground

[quote]And let's not forget that if the Mages see the Champion is on their side, they will be less inclined to turn towards blood magic, for a multitude of reasons.[/quote]
That is a valid theory altough it falls apart under scrutiny.

[quote]1) They believe they have a chance with regular magic.[/quote]
Orsino does not. How many agree with him?

[quote]2) They see that they actually do have supporters from the city. For instance, Aveline brings with her the support of the City Guard. Not support in the sense of them fighting, but support in the case of the Templars not receiving aid from the Guardsmen, which is good enough. [/quote]
If Aveline is not using the City Guard to protect the mages, then she is not there as Guard-Captain but simply as Aveline, close friend of Hawke.
The City Guard is all over the place on the ending, anyway. They can protect the civillians; they can help the Templars at Hawke's request, they can help the Templars if Aveline doesn't join Hawke, some of them appear with Fenris.
But there is no option to have the City Guard protect the mages; they are always against them or neutral; which means the mages are not likely to look at them with sympathy.

[quote]3) Doing so might, while understandable given the circumstances, turn the Champion against them.[/quote]
This assumes that people are always reasonable creatures who use only the barest minimun of force necessary which is simply not true.
Being supported by Hawke could actually lead to the mages believing in the "rigtheousness" of their case and unleashing years of pent up frustation and anger on the Templars and the City.
Basically, something akin to: "The Champion is on our side, b*tchs! Time for some payback!".

[quote]Furthermore, I'd argue that the Mages would also be similarly of a mind to do their best to reduce civilian casualties on their own. They can control magical attacks and thus direct where they go, so I'm certain that they would do their best to make sure only the Templars are targeted. After all, if they attack the civilians, that also runs the risk of endangering the Champion's support.[/quote]
Honestly, I don't think that they would care in the sligthest even if they could.

[quote]And the Champion, by and large, can be said to carry the support of Kirkwall. The nobility and commoners adore Hawke -- Hawke's rise apparently helped many Fereldan refugees -- and some nobles even echo the man's opinions as their own (lemmings do that). So it's possible that some might see the Champion fighting the Templars -- of which there has been massive levels of discontentment amongst the citizenry -- and join the side of the Mages or at least refrain from battling at all. Maybe they'd even help the Guardsmen with crowd control, as nobility tend to have their own forces at their disposal.[/quote]
Elthina was also adored. I'd say that Kirkwall will support the Champion so long as he has Kirkwall's best interests in mind.
Since Hawke is a fereldan, it's not surprising that the opinion toward fereldan refugees will improve. But if Hawke suggested that Kirkwall become a protectorate of Ferelden, people would likely take a step back.
Hawke here is supporting the people who are causing the entirety of collateral damage and, eventually, he abandons the city. Hence, why that choice is more about sacrificing Kirkwall for the sake of the mages.

[quote]
Oh, I'd think they'd care. Given how Vanard was thrown out of office for his corruption of it regarding justice, City Elves, and his son along with how Hawke the Champion -- again, whom people adore -- might also have befriended two Elves and assisted the Elven community... I'd say they'd care on some level.[/quote]
Vanard was not thrown out of office. I certainly can't recall it and there is no mention of it on the wiki.

[quote]Moreover, some people would undoubtedly take issue with the fact the Templars tortured a child, Elven or no. Others might just take issue because of the idea that they might do the same to their children or their friends' children.

And considering the Templars have been murdering people of human ancestry, then they might consider it definitely possible the Templars would torture children of human ancestry as well.[/quote]
Or people might just interpret it as a cautionary tale against harboring fugitive mages.

[quote]
I imagine some people still have their suspicions, even if they're not voicing them.[/quote]
Of course but not to the point of the city confuding a mage's terrorist attack for a qunari invasion.


[quote]
Oh but they were. The loss of their right to autonomy, Templar death squads murdering people in broad daylight for aiding Mages the Templars themselves brutalized (which is not only the wrong punishment for aiding Mages, but the people will see that the Templars are actively oppressing them), the Templars trying to consolidate power by taking over the City Guard (such that if Aveline and her men didn't stand up to them, all of Kirkwall would be seen as puppets in need of hands up their arses), and so on.[/quote]
If all Meredith did as viscountess was punishing mage sympathizer harshly, then she can't be said to be opressing a majority of Kirkwall's population.
She still should not be the Viscountess and there will be people who will oppose her; likely nobles who want the position for themselves; but the common people might not even have noticed she is Viscountess.

[quote]
I am standing against tyranny. It was never my intention to eliminate the Templars, as I knew full well such a goal was simply not feasible.

I do not need to eliminate 3/4 of the Templars in Kirkwall to win. I only need to eliminate 1/4 that, by their deaths, allows 1/2 of the Mages to escape.[/quote]
Helping dangerous people run amok is not standing up against tyranny. It's helping dangerous people kill innocent people.
And I am simply considering the other logical end for an Hawke who fights the Templars which is win.

[quote]
Some might, if the Templars stand down after Meredith's display of insanity and Cullen takes full command. [/quote]
The templars have been destroyed in this scenario. There is nothing forcing the mages to stay in the Gallows.

[quote]
Meredith was hated, so people wouldn't be shedding too many tears over her death, moreso if Cullen explains to them that she had bought some magical artifact found in the Deep Roads by Bartrand's expedition that drove her mad.[/quote]
Cullen would be dead. And Meredith was not universally despise. While she has opponent, we also know she has supporters who lauded her work in keeping mages controled which would, logically, mean her support would grow with the increased number and violence of magical threats.
Also, Meredith is, ultimately, a symbol. Just like the Templars, she is a symbol of non-mage autonomy and independence. Mages killing the Knight Commander will represent the loss of freedom of non-mages even if that wouldn't always translate so in reality.

[quote]Along with an explanation that Anders, a madman Abomination mage, was executed for his crime. The Templars exist to defend the Mages from the mundanes and the mundanes from the ravages of magical threats. A mob of commoners with pitchforks and kitchen knives and patchwork armor would quake in fear when they saw a military order of guardians to the Mages accompanied by the City Guard working to defend the Mages.[/quote]
That is a scenarion that was made impossible after Meredith called for the RoA. The Templars only back down after the threat of the mages is no more.

[quote]
Actually, it'd be unwise for them to stay there, given how they need to spread word of the injustice that happened. Some might go to their families, yes, but not for very long. The most they'd do is tell them what happened and tell them to be safe as they might be in danger now.

But to stay in Kirkwall would be unwise.[/quote]
People don't always act in the manner that is most wise. And you must remember that there are not higly trained mages like Flemeth who can hide in the wilds. This is a community which includes, children, elderly and mages who don't know how to survive in the real world.
They would be in no position to run; some, like Orsino might not wish to abandon them; other like Tahrone would wish to rule the city.
Even if they ran, where would they go? Tevinter? A mass exodus just means they would present a larger target to the entirety of the Free Marches while tried to cross it. At least, in Kirkwall, they have the city's defenses.

[quote]
And where are the Templars? As it's not the goal of Hawke to destroy the Order's presence wholesale, then there'd still be Templars there. Where are they in this hypothetical aftermath? Are they just once more sitting on the sidelines ignoring their proper duties?[/quote]
In this hypothetical aftermath, they have been destroyed in accordance with the second logical result of Hawke fighting the Templars which is Hawke winning.

[quote]Maybe if Meredith had actually sent some of her Templars to assist Aveline and her guardsmen in keeping the town safe from magical threats, the City Guard would have a better understanding of how to deal with these things.[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote]I will not clean up Meredith's mess that she created. I will expose it. I did the same thing for Vanard, for Petrice, and for many others.[/quote]
Sure but do that when the city is in no danger of self destructing.

[quote]
Eh.... that's really apples and oranges. Crossing between two realms isn't the same as crossing miles of water. I doubt Demons know how to swim, and when they possess a body they'd be facing the weaknesses of the mortal body (drowning, in particular).[/quote]
They could shift to the Fade and appear in Kirkwall proper. Or they could freeze the water.
And I doubt Abominations need air. They don't even appear to have any way for breath to enter their bodies. In which case they could just walk to the city.

[quote]
The ability to think for one's self is a vital part to our nature as human beings. If they cannot differentiate between what is truly necessary for an RoA to be justified... then are they truly fit to be soldiers standing up for the justice of both Mages and mundanes? [/quote]
Sure but people have always been forced to go to war by their leaders. This is no different.
The templars you can talk to before the Gallows are invaded appear to simply be convinced that this is what the city needs to be protected. Which is to say, they are not eager to kill out of pejudice or something similar.

[quote]
The only blood mages during Act 3 were the Bloodragers, whom the Templars ignored despite having a very visible presence in Hightown.

No abominations appeared in Act 3 either, at least in Kirkwall. Kirkwall's outskirts, yes, but that's different.
[/quote]
Huon and Merril are also blood mages. And so are the Resolutionists and organized terrorists at that. Then there are those blood mages in "The Last Holdouts". And we don't know what the templars were doing  against the Bloodragers.
The Templars had an hand in dealing with all of those except the Resolutionists who would have been killed by an agent of the Divine, anyway.

As for Abominations, there's Evelina. And Grace wouldn't have restricted her actions to Kirkwall's outskirts.

Also, there were demon worshippers like the Followers of She.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 avril 2013 - 06:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

Without Griffins, Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore to deal with the winged Archdemons. What Riordian did to injure an Archdemon was a matter of luck. And the Archdemons lead the hordes of darkspawn, which could be hypothetically dealt with by mages - as Duncan notes to the mage protagonist when he explains why he wants a mage in every regiment (since Duncan acknowledges that a mage can deal with large groups of darkspawn with his or her powers).

Hazegurl wrote...

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

I'd say it was obvious Cailan and his armies were screwed with or without Loghain and his troops given the number of darkspawn who were approaching them, which wasn't helped by Greagoir only permitting seven mages to help stop the darkspawn at Ostagar.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that you made claims about things that no one actually said, I'm not sure how you can seriously state that.

That would be because I never misrepresented the other side. What I may have done was point out consequences if their propositions came to pass that they themselves had not pedicted.

The problem is you're using your assumptions and claiming they are facts.

All of my predictions are made using logic and facts as the basis.
If someone feels that I am mistaken, all s/he is explain why and I will adress it. Meanwhile, simply saying "Assumption" is neither an argument not conductive to debate.

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

There is a difference between useful and essencial. And given the number of Darkspawn plus their variety and Loghain's betrayal, I feel that a greater number of mages wouldn't have made much of a difference.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

Grey wardens stop blights. But as seen in awakening the darkspawn no longer archdemons to be dangerous.  you cannot defeat the darkspawn through conventional methods.The tevinter imperium and the dwarven empire tried that and they lost. And their are several other issues that also need to be resolved.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 11 avril 2013 - 07:45 .

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...
There is a difference between useful and essencial. And given the number of Darkspawn plus their variety and Loghain's betrayal, I feel that a greater number of mages wouldn't have made much of a difference.

That may be true, but keep in mind the Battle at Ostegar wasn't an ordinary situation.  The Grey Wardens at that time were a lot fewer in number then they should have been, they had no back up from the Grey Wardens of Orlais and the entire battle plan hinged on a flanking charge that never came.  It's not an average situation for a blight.  In an ordinary blight mages are virtually indispensable given their ability to damage great numbers of Darkspawn at once and their ability to heal the wounded on the field.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 11 avril 2013 - 07:59 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that you made claims about things that no one actually said, I'm not sure how you can seriously state that.

That would be because I never misrepresented the other side. What I may have done was point out consequences if their propositions came to pass that they themselves had not pedicted.

If you don't even remember what you said, how can you be so sure you didn't misrepresent the other side?

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is you're using your assumptions and claiming they are facts.

All of my predictions are made using logic and facts as the basis.
If someone feels that I am mistaken, all s/he is explain why and I will adress it. Meanwhile, simply saying "Assumption" is neither an argument not conductive to debate.

You're welcome to speculate, but that's precisely what it is. I don't understand why you put it forth as though it's fact when it isn't.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

There is a difference between useful and essencial. And given the number of Darkspawn plus their variety and Loghain's betrayal, I feel that a greater number of mages wouldn't have made much of a difference. 

Except Loghain made a decision that he felt would save the remainder of the army, instead of feeding them to the sea of darkspawn that Cailan's forces couldn't possibly handle. Given how inadequate the army was at that point, things may have been different if Greagoir didn't prohibit all but seven of the mages from serving in the army.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If you don't even remember what you said, how can you be so sure you didn't misrepresent the other side?

The same way I'm quite sure I've never stolen a car despite not remembering every waking moment of my life. It's not something I usually do.

You're welcome to speculate, but that's precisely what it is. I don't understand why you put it forth as though it's fact when it isn't.

If I shoot someone in the head, there is an extremely good chance that person is going to die.
Do you actually see a flaw with my logic?

Except Loghain made a decision that he felt would save the remainder of the army, instead of feeding them to the sea of darkspawn that Cailan's forces couldn't possibly handle. Given how inadequate the army was at that point, things may have been different if Greagoir didn't prohibit all but seven of the mages from serving in the army.

During the battle of Denerim, pretty much every combat ready mage joined the battle; it's true that their numbers would have been diminished after Uldred but if we had placed one mage per regiment, their numbers wouldn't have been that high compared to the endgame, anyway; plus dwarves, golems, elves, werewolves, Redcliff, Loghain's forces and even then, the battle was won through the flimsiest of chances.
I think it's safe to say that simply having more mages in Ostagar wouldn't have turned the tide of the battle.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

Without Griffins, Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore to deal with the winged Archdemons. What Riordian did to injure an Archdemon was a matter of luck. And the Archdemons lead the hordes of darkspawn, which could be hypothetically dealt with by mages - as Duncan notes to the mage protagonist when he explains why he wants a mage in every regiment (since Duncan acknowledges that a mage can deal with large groups of darkspawn with his or her powers).

Hazegurl wrote...

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

I'd say it was obvious Cailan and his armies were screwed with or without Loghain and his troops given the number of darkspawn who were approaching them, which wasn't helped by Greagoir only permitting seven mages to help stop the darkspawn at Ostagar.

Riordian, The Warden, Alistair or Lohgain proved that even without Griffons Grey Wardens will find a way to slay an Archdemon.  Griffons are useful but not required for the job and neither are mages unless they are Grey Wardens. Mages cannot stop Blights, period.  Being able to handle a large amount of darkspawn is simply a convenience.

[lil yonce]

[quote]Lazy Jer wrote...

But it's still a thought.  He still wouldn't proceed without it.[/quote]
Yes he would. He didn't only because he didn't have the men to.

"I realized we could not defeat them and told my men to flee. [...] I have sent word to Denerim calling for reinforcements and the RoA. We do not mean for the doors to stay closed forever. Everything in the tower must be eliminated. [...] The situation is dire. Everything in the tower must be destroyed so it can remain safe again. I would lay down my life and that of every mage in this tower to protect the innocents from the abominations."

The RoA is a formality Greagior acknowledges only because he must request the Grand Cleric send reinforcements. Had he the men necessary to complete the task there is no indication he would have waited to proceed with the Circle's destruction.

[quote]The difference is that the Divine wouldn't chew Greigor out for doing it, the situation was clearly out of hand.  Meredith was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer.  To not wait was an abuse of the system in order to further her own paranoid delusions.[/quote]
There was no abuse of the system. She has the legal authority to call the RoA. The mages are totally in her wheelhouse after Elthina's death. She has long suspected the Circle of corruption. Best Served Cold, On the Loose, The Last Holdouts, and All That Remians demonstrate her suspicion is legitimate. Additionally, Orsino's continued uncooperative attitude worsens the situation making the mages look guilty-- like they're hiding something.

[quote]Meredith wasn't fit to command, otherwise Ser Thrask wouldn't have tried to over throw her.  Even Cullen started having his doubts.  So maybe she did have legal authority...but it was on a shoestring and a pig spit technicality.[/quote]
Ser Thrask was murdered by a crazy Circle blood mage at a rebellion organized to aid them. What does he know? His example evidences Meredith and her firmness correct.

At the end of Best Served Cold, Cullen remarks, "These Templars are spoiled. If they had witnessed what I saw in Ferelden they'd know never to trust a mage." Whatever doubt he voices concerning Meredth's leadership in the Gallows he does not exercise it. He completes the annulment at her command and disobeys only when she is truly lost to the Lyrium Idol throwing wild accusations at Hawke.
 
[quote]On the flip side, how much patience could Orsino have had.  It's not like Meredith wasn't contributing to the problems.  The Circle/Templar situation resulted in both sides not backing down.  Meredith was in the midst of lyrium fueled paranoia.  I don't doubt that Orsino had a hand in things getting crazy in Act 3, but I'm not going to sit here and paint Meredith as Mr. Rogers asking the mages nicely to do what she said.  Her firm hand was what started the problems in the first place.  If someone fairly reasonable had been in command things wouldn't have gotten to that level.  The only reason she could only rely on her firm hand is because she was on the edge of sanity to begin with and was tipped over by the lyrium idol.[/quote]
Meredith's suspicions were legitimate. Enemies Among Us, Best Served Cold, On the Loose, The Last Holdouts, and All That Remains provide evidence she was not simply imagining blood magic-- that she was not paranoid. Kirkwall requires a firm hand. She doesn't apply pressure needlessly. Consider the situation.

There are a large number of mages in the Cirlce-- she can expect more difficulty and resistence in managing it due to its size alone. The Veil is thin in Kirkwall-- she can expect more abominations and demonic consort. And Kirkwall has a history of prolific blood magic use dating back to its rule under the Tevinter Imperium. The Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries detail why so many mages turn to blood magic in the city and it isn't because Meredith is strict. Its because blood mage secrects can be found underground were the Imperium left them centuries ago. The use of blood magic is not exclusive to her leadership. You can't take chances with your Circle in such a city. Strict measures are necessary. The difficulties of running a regular Circle of Magi are compounded by Kirkwall's issues.

She's not nice about it. Its not her personality. But is being nice about going to help? No. Asunder details the White Spire had a "good man" as Knight-Commander. KC Eron. Freedoms at the White Spire were restricted and the College of Magi disbanded after the Kirkwall incident. Did the mages care that he had been consistently fair? That this was a blimp on the map? No. They resisted and complained regardless.

[quote]Well okay.  But she still is opposed.  There's still an entire quest that you can get where one of the nobles is trying to get rid of Meredith. [/quote]
You don't receive that quest if you side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3. It doesn't exist in my playthrough.

[quote]That still doesn't give her the legal authority to assume the roll of Viscount.[/quote][quote]No she doesn't.  Having the biggest army doesn't give you the legal authority to be Viscount.  She only had authority to take over because Kirkwall was under the direct threat of a Qunari invasion.  Once things settled down she had no right, per the laws of Kirkwall, to be Viscount.  If she doesn't abide by the laws of Kirkwall and take the office of Viscount legitimately that makes her as much an invader as the Qunari.[/quote]
No. But one can presume no one has challenged her in large part because they need her. Throwing "legal authority" in her face isn't going to banish the truth about the city's lack of adequate protection and the role the Templars play in defense. I think they would put up with her and her lack of "legal authority" if it meant the Kirkwall is guaranteed protection. Paper authority means nothing.

[quote]And the balance of power requires her to either choose Knight-Commander or Viscount.  Otherwise it's too much power in one person's hands.  That's why there's a Viscount and a Guard Captain.  That's why there's a Grand Cleric and a Knight-Commander.  Power needs to be balanced or the person with all the power becomes corrupt and there's no one to check her if she goes on a lyrium-fueled paranoid rampage around the city looking for blood mages where none exist.[/quote]
She isn't required to do anything. This is an unprecedented situation. And she has power because she is Knight-Commander. She has an army. It would be stupid to step down from her position because she derives all authrority from it. She is not Nobility and she can rule Kirkwall only because she has the Key the City in the Templars. She assumes control because she has what the city needs. She is the only one who can keep order.

And plenty of blood mages exist. Best Served Cold, The Last Holdouts, All That Remains, On The Loose etc.

[quote]And frankly, yes, she should wait for the angry mob to form.  Otherwise you can use "angry mob" to justify any screwed up action anyone in power should care to use.  "We're going to torch the Alienage, to prevent an angry mob from forming because of the Arl's son.", "We're going to kill all the Ferelden refugees in the city to prevent an angry mob from forming due to the Ferelden refugee Anders' actions."[/quote]
So she should wait for the citizens to burn down the city and descend on the Gallows before she does anything? No. That's not effective leadership. That alone would make her look bad. And you don't think those scenarios you mentioned would occur should tensions be pushed far enough? And once more the mages are not innocent. She has legitmate cause to believe blood magic has spread throughout the Circle. The call for annulment is two-fold.

[quote]An angry mob is a matter for the City Guard anyway, and can be put down without loss of life.[/quote]
The City Guard is too small to deal with nearly any significant issue. The Qunari attack demonstrates that. They have one tiny base in the Viscount's Keep. They can't protect a city. And riots generally involve death and injury. Its inescapable. I'll refer to 1992 LA again. Fifty-three dead and over two-thousand injured. I'll also use an example from Asunder. Ser Evangeline and her charges are attempting to enter Val Royeaux after completing their task at Adamant. The gates to the city are closed preventing anyone from entering or exiting. A large tent city waits just outside and seeing Evangeline's approach they seize the opportunity to force their way into the city. Riot. The City Guard beats two men and kills another before the crowd sufficiently backs off. And the Guard has numbers on their side.

[quote]Furthermore, it's the job of the Templars to protect the Circle from angry mobs.  Thus you can't use "angry mob' as a justification for the Rite of Annulment.[/quote]
Meredith has called for the RoA on suspicison of complete Circle corruption so she's not going to defend them and even if she wanted to-- she is not only Knight-Commander. She is the acting Viscountess and turning her blade against the city would be disastrous for not only her rule but for the future of the Templar Order in Kirkwall.

[quote]Politics shouldn't enter into it.  If she wants to be Viscount she has to run the city by the laws of Kirkwall, not the law of mob rule.  When things like this happen it's a leaders job to tell the crowd "Yes this happened, yes we will find the guilty party and yes we will punish them."  Basically this is the reason she can't be both Viscount and Knight-Commander.  Her duty as Knight-Commander is to protect the mages, the duty of the Viscount is to protect and rule the city of Kirkwall.  If she can't do one duty without abandoning the other then she has no business doing both.[/quote]
Politcs will always factor into her decisions. She's sucked into politics by virtue of being KC in Kirkwall. And she wasn't calling the RoA solely to protect the city from itself. She had called for one long ago on the suspicion of complete corruption.

And her duty as KC is not only to protect the mages but also and chiefly to protect the people. So long as Kirkall has need of her army she will be ruling the city-- openly or through another Viscount she has control.

EDIT: Spelling and sentence structure corrections.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 11 avril 2013 - 11:15 .

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Yes he would. He didn't only because he didn't have the men to. "I realized we could not defeat them and told my men to flee. [...] I have sent word to Denerim calling for reinforcements and the RoA. We do not mean for the doors to stay closed forever. Everything in the tower must be eliminated. [...] The situation is dire. Everything in the tower must be destroyed so it can remain safe again. I would lay down my life and that of every mage in this tower to protect the innocents from the abominations." The RoA is a formality Greagior acknowledges only because must request the Grand Cleric to send reinforcements. Had he the men necessary to complete the task there is no indication he would have waited to proceed with the Circle's destruction.[/quote]

The evidence that he would have waited lies in the fact that when you he hears the all-clear form the First Enchanter he backs off the Rite of Annulment.  Look, would he have proceeded, maybe.  But my point in even bringing him up is to draw the stark difference between the Last Straw and the Broken Circle. 



[quote]There was no abuse of the system. She has the legal authority to call the RoA. The mages are in her wheelhouse after Elthina's death. She has long suspected the Circle of corruption. Best Served Cold, On the Loose, The Last Holdouts, and All That Remians demonstrate her suspicion is legitimate. Additionally, Orsino's continued uncooperative attitude worsens the situation making the mages look guilty-- like they're hiding something.[/quote]

So there's blood magic.  It's still not a justification for the Rite of Annulment otherwise the Ferelden Circle would have been vaporized because of Jowen's dumb little stunt.  The Rite of Annulment is reserved for when the Circle is no longer in control.  It's reserved for when garbage has well and truly hit the fan.  Broken Circle was a perfect example.  This isn't.  After the Chantry blows up, because of Anders, Orsino immediately give Meredith the go ahead to do what she was trying to do in the first place.  She has what she wanted right there in her hand.  She could have torn the Circle apart looking for blood magic.  She doesn't.  She calls for the Rite of Annulment.  Abuse of the system is when someone is using a slim technicality to achieve a result that goes outside what the system was originally put in place to achieve.  Meredith used a technicality to achieve a result she wanted to do but couldn't as long as Elthina was alive.  That's why it's an abuse of the system.  An abuse of the system doesn't break the rules, it merely abuses them.


[quote]Ser Thrask was murdered by a crazy Circle blood mage at a rebellion organized to aid them. What does he know? He example evidences Meredith and her firmness correct. At the end of Best Served Cold, Cullen remarks, "These Templars are spoiled. If they had witnessed what I saw in Ferelden they'd know never to trust a mage." Whatever doubt he voices concerning Meredth's leadership in the Gallows he does not exercise them. He completes the annulment at her command and disobeys only when she is truly lost to the Lyrium Idol throwing wild accusations at Hawke.[/quote]

Ser Thrask choosing poor allies doesn't mean his reasons were wrong.  There's more then enough evidence to support that Meredith was overstepping.  The Templars were roughing up regular citizens for the mere suspicion of harboring mages.  And Cullen steps in before Meredith has her blood-mage conniption.  Mages come up to surrender and he directly tells Meredith that they shouldn't be executed.  Furthermore the fact that he voices his doubts, whether he acts on them or not, is proof that she's not stable.  This is Cullen we're talking about.  He's about as pro-Templar as you can reasonably get without being a complete scumbag.  He tells Hawke that mages aren't people like "you or me."  And he sees Meredith isn't all there.  He excuses it, but he still sees  

[quote]Meredith's suspicions were legitimate. Enemies Among Us, Best Served Cold, On the Loose, The Last Holdouts, and All That Remains provide evidence she was not simply imagining blood magic-- that she was not paranoid. Kirkwall requires a firm hand. She doesn't apply pressure needlessly. Consider the situation.

There are a large number of mages in the Cirlce-- she can expect more difficulty and resistence in managing it due to its size alone. The Veil is thin in Kirkwall-- she can expect more abominations and demonic consort. And Kirkwall has a history of prolific blood magic use dating back to its rule under the Tevinter Imperium. The Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries detail why so many mages turn to blood magic in the city and it isn't because Meredith is strict. Its because blood mage secrects can be found underground were the Imperium left them centuries ago. The use of blood magic is not exclusive to her leadership. You can't take chances with your Circle in such a city. Strict measures are necessary. The difficulties of running a regular Circle of Magi are compounded by Kirkwall's issues.[/quote]

Well Meredith managed to botch the whole thing up regardless.  For all her firm-handedness blood magic increased under her rule over the Circle.  If she had been reasonably sane  as well as firm-handed, she might have been able to get more cooperation from Orsino or some of the other mages or Enchanters.  My comment about seeing blood magic where it doesn't exist is still valid.  Yeah there was blood magic, but she was seeing it in every mage, every mage sympathizer and basically in anybody she didn't like.


[quote]You don't receive that quest if you side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

You do if you don't...so yeah it does.


[quote]No. But one can presume no one has challenged her in large part because they need her. Throwing "legal authority" in her face isn't going to banish the truth about the city's lack of adequate protection and the role the Templars play in defense. I think they would put up with her and her lack of "legal authority" if it meant the Kirkwall is guaranteed protection. Paper authority means nothing.[/quote]

Legal authority isn't something nobles make up because they're bored.  It's there for a reason.  Look at what happens when becomes de facto Viscount.  She pushes out most of the city guard, tries to push out Aveline (a good officer who is doing her job and cares about the guard and the city of Kirkwall), and sends her brute squad to rough up anyone harboring mages, or even suspected as such. What she was doing as Viscount may have been great for the Templars, but it wasn't what was best for the people as a whole. 

[quote]She isn't required to do anything. This is an unprecedented situation. And she has power because she is Knight-Commander. She has an army. It would be stupid to step down from her position because she derives all authrority from it. She is not Nobility and she can rule Kirkwall only because she has the Key the City in the Templars. She assumes control because she has what the city needs. She is the only one who can keep order.

And plenty of blood mages exist. Best Served Cold, The Last Holdouts, All That Remains, On The Loose etc.
[/quote]

Too bad she wasn't looking for them in any of those places.  Hawke finds more blood magic by actually looking and following up on leads then any of her wild accusations.  Meredith isn't literally required to step down.  What I said was that to maintain an appropriate balance of power.  She's not what the city needs, she's what the city needed when the Qunari invaded.  The third act takes place, what, two or three years after the Qunari invasion?  There were no pressing problems in Kirkwall that required martial law.  Order could have been kept by Aveline who, as Guard Captain, had more legitimate claim to Acting Viscount then Meredith did.  Order could have been kept by a noble in line to take over the office of Viscount.  She was no longer what the city needed.  She wouldn't give up the role of Viscount solely because she wanted more power


[quote]So she wait for the citizens to burn down the city and descend on the Gallows before she does anything? No. That's not effective leadership. That alone would make her look bad. And you don't think those scenarios you mentioned would occur should tensions be pushed far enough? And once more the mages are not innocent. She has legitmate cause to believe blood magic has spread throughout the Circle. The call for annulment is two-fold.[/quote]

[quote]The City Guard is too small to deal with nearly any significant issue. The Qunari attack demonstrates that. They have one tiny base in the Viscount's Keep. They can't protect a city. And riots generally involve death and injury. Its inescapable. I'll refer to 1992 LA again. Fifty-three dead and over two-thousand injured. I'll also use an example from Asunder. Ser Evangeline and her charges are attempting to enter Val Royeaux after completing their task at Adamant. The gates to the city are closed preventing anyone from entering or exiting. A large tent city waits just outside and seeing Evangeline's approach seizes the opportunity to force their way into the city. Riot. The City Guard beats two men and kills another before the crowd sufficiently backs off. And the Guard has numbers on their side.[/quote]

Who said anything about letting the angry mob get that far?  The idea is to step before it gets that bad.  But you can't act because something MIGHT cause and angry mob, or even if you think it will cause an angry mob.  When the tensions start getting high, then you try and defuse it by punishing the guilty, the people who actually contributed to the crime that was actually committed.  If it gets worse then you implement curfews until tensions can ease down.  If an angry mob still manages to form then you call out the city guard to subdue said mob.  "Angry Mob" is not an on/off "destroy Kirkwall" switch.  It can be dealt with before tensions get that high, especially if you have someone reasonably sane in charge.  Reason again why Meredith can't do it.

And "The Mages" are not a hive mind.  There are guilty mages.  There are also innocent mages.


[quote]Meredith has called for the RoA on suspicison of complete Circle corruption so she's not going to defend them and even if she wanted to-- she is not only Knight-Commander. She is the acting Viscountess and turning her blade against the city would be disasterous for not only her rule but for the future of the Templar Order in Kirkwall.[/quote]

Meredith suspects complete circle corruption because she's a lyrium-idol possessed paranoid-schizophrenic.  Bartram suspected his entire staff was going to take his precious lyrium idol away, so he had them feed to his goon-squad.  Meredith's suspicions, what I'm trying to say, are not reliable.  If the were, once again, Elthina would have granted the Rite of Annulment when it was asked of her.

And her duty as Viscountess, is to all  the citizens of Kirkwall, not just the ones she likes.  Again, if there was an angry mob marching on the Alienage the Viscount needs to stop the angry mob.  She can't have all the elves killed or arrested because there happen to be less of them then the human rioters. 


[quote]Politcs will always factor into her decisions. She's sucked into politics by virtue of being KC in Kirkwall. And she wasn't calling the RoA solely to protect the city from itself. She had called for one long ago on the suspicion of complete corruption. Her duty as KC is not only to protect the mages but also and chiefly to protect the people. So long as Kirkall has need of her army she will be ruling the city-- openly or through another Viscount she has control.[/quote]A request that was denied because it didn't have any merit.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 11 avril 2013 - 10:55 .

[GeminiParadox]

I'm not defending the use of blood magic, especially by people like Idunna, Quentin, and Tarohne.... but it's stated in the game that so many mages are turning to blood magic in Kirkwall because the Kirkwall Circle is more abusive than other Circles in Thedas. Most of the mages Hawke encounters are apostates. They're on the run and desperate. Therefore, many probably turned to blood magic just to survive, especially if they knew that the Rite of Tranquility and abuse by corrupt Templars like Alrik awaited them.

Meredith is paranoid because of a bad event that happened in her childhood. She blindly hates all mages because of that experience. The situation only became as bad as it did because she and Chantry leadership turned a blind eye to the abuses that the Templars perpetrated against the mages in the Circle.

Mages are born with their powers without choice. Malcolm Hawke, Bethany, mage Hawke, Marethari, Feynriel, arguably Merrill, Ella... these are all mages who did not not become evil. They were innocents. The Templars have power in Thedas; mages do not. Therefore it is the responsibility of those in power to ensure they do not abuse the mages in their care so that mages become more desperate to escape Tranquility.

I will admit that mages do pose a legitimate danger if not trained properly and if they lack willpower, and that the Circle may be the best place for some mages. But that does not condone murdering every single innocent Circle mage because of the actions of apostates. Anders was one apostate mage who committed a terrorist act. Meredith showed that she can't be trusted to be rational about mages when she used his action as an excuse to kill all mages within her reach.

[TEWR]

The Qunari attack demonstrates that

Not really. We don't have numbers for the City Guard, but we do have numbers for the Qunari. They had 100 -- or thereabouts -- well trained soldiers who launched a surprise attack against EVERYONE.

You can't really hold the Qunari as a standard for the City Guard being incapable of maintaining security in Kirkwall. The Qunari are, by their very nature, tough sons of ****es.

Sten went nearly 30 days without food or drink yet is still capable of wielding a sword and kicking ass immediately.

That points to a fundamental difference in Qunari physiology. Which means you can't say "If the City Guard couldn't take down these well-trained soldiers that launched a surprise attack, that are capable of going weeks without food or drink without it seriously affecting their body, and who managed to fight Thedas all the way to a standstill, then they just are too small and insignificant and incapable of handling these issues."

I think it's safe to say that simply having more mages in Ostagar wouldn't have turned the tide of the battle.

Arguable. At Ostagar, there would've been 25 Wardens, all told. Wardens were noted in the First Blight to have dealt with 20 Darkspawn at any one time, for each individual Warden. Granted, they had griffins at the time and it doesn't elaborate on if the cause for the 20 Darkspawn thing was because of their mounts, but let's assume for the sake of argument that Wardens can deal with 20 Darkspawn on their own when grounded.

That means that those Wardens would take down 500 Darkspawn all told and keep doing so.

Throw in the Mages in every regiment thing where they'd be able to heal the other soldiers or launch firestorms and tempests at their foes... then you're looking at a lot of damage dealt to the Darkspawn. Especially since, by having such large numbers of Mages, you'd also need large numbers of Templars as well.

However, things would've been even better if Highever's full troops, Amaranthine's troops, and Redcliffe's troops were there. Unfortunately, Howe killed Bryce, kept his forces from going to Ostagar to take advantage of the chaos so he could usurp other places (which makes him no better then an Orlesian), and Anora's dialogue implies, at least to me, that he had a hand in poisoning Eamon -- and certainly the whole "Kill Anora" plot to frame Eamon -- after Ostagar.

So, with the combined strength of Gwaren, the Circle, the Chantry, the Wardens, Highever, Amaranthine, and Redcliffe... well, I'd say that the battle would've been winnable. Alas, three of those things were kept out of the battle. Highever's forces were split, some going with Fergus, the rest going with Bryce IIRC and in the end they could not take part in the battle.

And Howe...well, he's a power-hungry ****. And Eamon's forces were repeatedly refused by Cailan to march towards Ostagar, which was an asenine thing to do.

Still, I have faith in Teyrn Loghain to make the best use of the other forces, had the Mages and Templars been there in full force. Such a change in numbers would necessitate a change in battle strategy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 03:20 .

[TEWR]

If you talk to the Nobles in the Hightown Square they believe Orsino should shut up.

It's cuz they're lemmings, following the Champion's opinions. If you're pro-mage/anti-Meredith, they're the same. If the opposite, they are too.

[lil yonce]

[quote]Lazy Jer wrote...

The evidence that he would have waited lies in the fact that when you he hears the all-clear form the First Enchanter he backs off the Rite of Annulment.  Look, would he have proceeded, maybe.  But my point in even bringing him up is to draw the stark difference between the Last Straw and the Broken Circle.[/quote]
That's a change of heart based on your word and not waiting. If I agree with Cullen the Circle is annuled. Blood magic is not tolerated any more than abominations. Both are equally bad.

[quote]So there's blood magic.  It's still not a justification for the Rite of Annulment otherwise the Ferelden Circle would have been vaporized because of Jowen's dumb little stunt.[/quote]
Jowan acted in isolation. He was not part of a sizable group practicing forbidden arts or the latest reveal in a string of blood mages. The situation is not comparable.

[quote]The Rite of Annulment is reserved for when the Circle is no longer in control.  It's reserved for when garbage has well and truly hit the fan.  Broken Circle was a perfect example.  This isn't.[/quote]
I think widespread corruption is cause enough. Blood magic is very dangerous. Enemies Among Us demonstrates what blood mages are capable of-- what they can do to the Templar Order. I don't think its fair to blame Meredith for not waiting for the mages to organize-- to bust out blood magic Templars cannot combat before acting. That is not a serious solution as Knight-Commander.

[quote]After the Chantry blows up, because of Anders, Orsino immediately give Meredith the go ahead to do what she was trying to do in the first place.  She has what she wanted right there in her hand.  She could have torn the Circle apart looking for blood magic.  She doesn't.  She calls for the Rite of Annulment.[/quote]
She had written to Val Royeaux seeking the RoA before The Last Straw. She believed the Circle was beyond saving before Anders' stunt. Orsino has been uncooperative and openly rebellious, and Best Served Cold, The Last Holdouts, All That Remains, and On the Loose have taken place.

[quote]Abuse of the system is when someone is using a slim technicality to achieve a result that goes outside what the system was originally put in place to achieve.  Meredith used a technicality to achieve a result she wanted to do but couldn't as long as Elthina was alive.  That's why it's an abuse of the system.  An abuse of the system doesn't break the rules, it merely abuses them.[/quote]
Invoking her new authority doesn't mean it isn't the right decision. She isn't calling for the RoA simply because she despises the Circle of Magi. There is legitimate concern. And her hand is forced as acting Viscountess.

[quote]Ser Thrask choosing poor allies doesn't mean his reasons were wrong.[/quote]
Ser Thrask allowing the use of blood magic and necromancy under his supervision to overthrow his superiors was foolish. Its banned for good reason. He was too trusting. Too soft. He was not vigilant and it got him killed. I understand a baseline concern for mages as human beings-- how you would not want to live under the circumstances they do but far too late he was reminded why Meredith is harsh.

[quote]There's more then enough evidence to support that Meredith was overstepping.  The Templars were roughing up regular citizens for the mere suspicion of harboring mages.[/quote]
One Templar wishes to kill the familes during The Last Holdouts. The other wants no such thing.

[quote]And Cullen steps in before Meredith has her blood-mage conniption.  Mages come up to surrender and he directly tells Meredith that they shouldn't be executed.[/quote]  
He wasn't advocating the entire annulment be called off.

[quote]Furthermore the fact that he voices his doubts, whether he acts on them or not, is proof that she's not stable.[/quote]
No it isn't. His mercy demonstrates a fundamental disagreement over how to conduct the Order and Circle. A disagreement over responsibility. Because someone has doubts about your methods and values does not make you crazy.

[quote]This is Cullen we're talking about.  He's about as pro-Templar as you can reasonably get without being a complete scumbag.  He tells Hawke that mages aren't people like "you or me."  And he sees Meredith isn't all there.  He excuses it, but he still sees.[/quote]
I don't deny that Meredith is to a degree affected by the Lyrium Idol but to write her every action off as insane or stupid because she under its influence during Act 3 is a cheap cop-out. I see it all to often on the boards. She should not be so easily dismissed.

[quote]Well Meredith managed to botch the whole thing up regardless.  For all her firm-handedness blood magic increased under her rule over the Circle.  If she had been reasonably sane  as well as firm-handed, she might have been able to get more cooperation from Orsino or some of the other mages or Enchanters. [/quote]
I wrote on this but I suppose you did not see it.

She's not nice about it. Its not her personality. But is being nice about going to help? No. Asunder details the White Spire had a "good man" as Knight-Commander. KC Eron. Freedoms at the White Spire were restricted and the College of Magi disbanded after the Kirkwall incident. Did the mages care that he had been consistently fair? That this was a blimp on the map? No. They resisted and complained. They only accept new conditions when pressured.

[quote]My comment about seeing blood magic where it doesn't exist is still valid.  Yeah there was blood magic, but she was seeing it in every mage, every mage sympathizer and basically in anybody she didn't like.[/quote]
Widespread corruption is legitimately possible. The Circle-- Orsino in particular plays the crazy card to garner support. Claiming she was irrational became the latest sport. She does not see it in every mage. She comments Bethany is a good mage. Her mistake is believing every Templar regards duty and magic as she does.

[quote]You do if you don't...so yeah it does.[/quote]
Not in my playthrough.

[quote]Legal authority isn't something nobles make up because they're bored.  It's there for a reason.  Look at what happens when becomes de facto Viscount.  She pushes out most of the city guard, tries to push out Aveline (a good officer who is doing her job and cares about the guard and the city of Kirkwall), and sends her brute squad to rough up anyone harboring mages, or even suspected as such. What she was doing as Viscount may have been great for the Templars, but it wasn't what was best for the people as a whole.[/quote]
And they've done nothing to seriously oppose her in three years under her leadership. She's that important to the city.

[quote]Too bad she wasn't looking for them in any of those places.  Hawke finds more blood magic by actually looking and following up on leads then any of her wild accusations.[/quote]
Meredith requests Hawke investigate the mages in On The Loose to gain a better understanding of what the Templars face everyday. Ser Agatha and Ser Mettin personally ask Hawke to assist them in The Last Holdouts. Meredith personally asks Hawke to investigate in Best Served Cold to uncover potential plots of Orsino's. Something her Templars could not do. They would be welcomed to the scene with a fight. Cullen is working the case in Enemies Among Us-- he uncovers Wilmond's fate before Hawke. And murder investigations are left to the City-Guard. All That Remains is not the fault of the Templars.

[quote]Meredith isn't literally required to step down.  What I said was that to maintain an appropriate balance of power.  She's not what the city needs, she's what the city needed when the Qunari invaded.  The third act takes place, what, two or three years after the Qunari invasion?  There were no pressing problems in Kirkwall that required martial law.  Order could have been kept by Aveline who, as Guard Captain, had more legitimate claim to Acting Viscount then Meredith did.  Order could have been kept by a noble in line to take over the office of Viscount.  She was no longer what the city needed.  She wouldn't give up the role of Viscount solely because she wanted more power.[/quote]
Until Orlais, Tevinter, Ferelden, Nevarra, Starkhaven, or another neighboring country or city in the Free Marches shows up to conquer. Snub Meredith and she will snub you. She has that sort of personality. If you have something valuable like Kikwall's port with no proper army to protect it you will be invaded. Without the Templars the new Viscount will be worse off than Dumar.

[quote]Who said anything about letting the angry mob get that far?  The idea is to step before it gets that bad.[/quote]
Good luck.

[quote]But you can't act because something MIGHT cause and angry mob, or even if you think it will cause an angry mob.  When the tensions start getting high, then you try and defuse it by punishing the guilty, the people who actually contributed to the crime that was actually committed.[/quote]
I demonstrated with the Asunder example the mage will be collectively condemned. They will call for more than the blood of the perpetrator.

[quote]If it gets worse then you implement curfews until tensions can ease down.  If an angry mob still manages to form then you call out the city guard to subdue said mob.[/quote]
You are asking the impossible of Meredith in this situation. She cannot turn her blade against the city and certainly not in defense of magic. Angry mobs aren't easily subdued.

[quote]"Angry Mob" is not an on/off "destroy Kirkwall" switch.[/quote]
Yes it is. Every riot destroys. LA. Watts. Chicago. Newark. Washington. Balitmore. Louisville. Kansas City. Off the top of my head.

[quote]It can be dealt with before tensions get that high, especially if you have someone reasonably sane in charge.  Reason again why Meredith can't do it.[/quote]
Controlling the city will be harder than you think. Bloodshed would be inevitable.

[quote]And "The Mages" are not a hive mind.  There are guilty mages.  There are also innocent mages.[/quote]
Too bad you can't tell them apart.

[quote]Meredith suspects complete circle corruption because she's a lyrium-idol possessed paranoid-schizophrenic.[/quote]
Lazy argument. And untrue.

[quote]Bartram suspected his entire staff was going to take his precious lyrium idol away, so he had them feed to his goon-squad.  Meredith's suspicions, what I'm trying to say, are not reliable.  If the were, once again, Elthina would have granted the Rite of Annulment when it was asked of her.[/quote]
Meredith is not Bartrand. She has an iron will. You cannot discern she has the Idol until the very end of Act 3.

[quote]And her duty as Viscountess, is to all  the citizens of Kirkwall, not just the ones she likes.[/quote]
Mages aren't citizens.

[quote]Again, if there was an angry mob marching on the Alienage the Viscount needs to stop the angry mob.  She can't have all the elves killed or arrested because there happen to be less of them then the human rioters.[/quote]
She won't remain Viscountness long if she tries to stop an assault on the Gallows.

[quote]A request that was denied because it didn't have any merit.
[/quote]
And if you believe that after the evidence I've provided this debate is over. There is nothing more I can say.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 12 avril 2013 - 06:00 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not really. We don't have numbers for the City Guard, but we do have numbers for the Qunari. They had 100 -- or thereabouts -- well trained soldiers who launched a surprise attack against EVERYONE.[/quote]
And other conquerors will give you fair warning and show up with only a tiny piece of their army? The City Guard has a tiny base in the Viscount's Keep. It doesn't even have its own building. They are few in number.

[quote]You can't really hold the Qunari as a standard for the City Guard being incapable of maintaining security in Kirkwall. The Qunari are, by their very nature, tough sons of ****es[/quote]
And Orlesian Chevaliars, Tevinter Mages, Nevarran Fighters from the Dragon Hunting Clans, and Ferelden Warriors who fought off the 5th Blight can't kick their butts? Especially in numbers?[/quote]

How can you love Loghain and not Meredith? /Crazy.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 12 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Riordian, The Warden, Alistair or Lohgain proved that even without Griffons Grey Wardens will find a way to slay an Archdemon.  Griffons are useful but not required for the job and neither are mages unless they are Grey Wardens. Mages cannot stop Blights, period.  Being able to handle a large amount of darkspawn is simply a convenience.

You're forgetting a rather large, crucial detail.  "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a Blight without the armies of a half-dozen nations at his back."  This is from the mouth of a Grey Warden.  You're also forgetting that Duncan was adamant that those treaties be taken to hand so that the armies of humans, elves, and dwarves could be compelled. 

The whole freakin' point of Origins is that Alistair and the Warden couldn't face the archdemon without getting an army together first.

Grey Wardens are required to permanently kill the archdemon, but you're dead wrong to try to claim that non-Warden mages, just like a few thousand non-Warden soldiers, are not absolutely essential in helping to make that happen.  Mages are required for the job, simply because whole armies are needed for the job.  There are NEVER enough Wardens to make up for the fact that there's always tens upon tens of thousands of darkspawn standing between them, and given that Mages have the ability not only to slaughter many darkspawn at once, but also to keep alive their own soldiers...claiming that they aren't vital to the effort to end a Blight is disingenuous.

[TEWR]

And Orlesian Chevaliars, Tevinter Mages, Nevarran Fighters from the Dragon Hunting Clans, and Ferelden Warriors who fought off the 5th Blight can't kick their butts? Especially in numbers?

In terms of the entire war the Qunari were fought in, no. The Qunari actually weren't affected by the war in terms of military strength. Least, not such that they were in a negative state of being.

In terms of these particular Qunari, well, Kirkwall didn't have all these people on their side.

And if you're referring to if the Qunari had won, then what I imagine the Arishok would've done would've been to reinforce Kirkwall, train the Elves to fight (as when Qunari are threatened, all Qunari fight, at least temporarily), send word to Par Vollen, and whatever else.

Kirkwall has a strategic posting on the Narrow Sea, so assaults by ship are not going to happen. Or at least they won't pose a threat.

Attacks by land are another matter, but again, one would expect the Arishok to make himself ready for such a thing. Assuming he's not as old as I like to think he is -- and losing his sense of self as Arishok -- and is actually competent.

Also, you can't be certain all the people you cited would join right away. It would certainly take the Chantry a while to be informed of it.

And other conquerors will give you fair warning and show up with only a tiny piece of their army?

I never said that. Though sometimes battles have been fought with both sides knowing the relative strength of their enemies, I just think it's unfair to say the Guardsmen can't handle something because they were taken by surprise earlier by a bunch of beefed up supersoldiers.

It seems to just be... misleading.

The City Guard has a tiny base in the Viscount's Keep. It doesn't even have its own building. They are few in number.

Guardsman Pretenders. They were ALL wearing Guardsmen uniforms and there were dozens of them, which they were noted to have taken by force.

Which points to there being dozens of Guardsmen in stable times.

Furthermore, in the few instances the City Guard do make appearances in the Acts, there are way more then "a few".

The barracks may be small and located in the Viscount's Keep, but then again Kirkwall as we see it in-game is small and we're supposed to believe it's big, bustling, and filled to bursting.

The game does not properly reflect the true nature of the city. That does not mean I can say there are only 50 citizens in all of Kirkwall.

Though given Hawke's kill count...

How can you love Loghain and not Meredith? /Crazy.

Loghain had the best intentions in mind, and though his methods were not the best at achieving a unified Ferelden they ultimately weren't harming anyone.

The harm came from people prioritizing politics and self-advancement over uniting under Loghain's banner against the Darkspawn, which forced Loghain to prioritize the civil war so as to unite Ferelden -- as you can't fight a war on two fronts (very well, anyway) -- and in the end led to him being placed in a crappier situation that led to him making some extremely difficult choices.

Meredith, on the other hand, took power the first chance she got. Note that she's not happy at all that Hawke took down the Qunari, in whatever form, and not her. She has a very upset look on her face.

Even prior to Act 2's end, she was noted to be a person that immediately made the Circle a less friendly place, when her predecessor Guylian managed to run things efficiently. She's noted to be the one calling the shots, but not out of some political intellect like Anora but rather simply because she has the martial force on her side.

Furthermore, she refused to investigate the Foundry where a man fled the scene (something Hawke can say to Emeric), where Demons appeared long after said person fleed (indicating that they were summoned, since there were shades and the only Demons capable of summoning other Demons are those of Pride and maybe Desire), where human remains were found, and where one Mage's phylactery ended cold.

She refused, after being presented with all this evidence by Emeric, and passed it along to the City Guard. They also refused -- which is damning of Aveline -- but it's not as damning because magical matters necessitate Templar involvement. 

When Aveline requested Templar reinforcements to better deal with magical threats, Meredith refused her. Which shows me she's not interested in doing her job.

She actively promotes extremists to high positions in the Order while the moderates are left to grunt work, if not fired. Worse still, the Templars that should certainly be fired for what they talk about -- Alrik -- are just allowed to go on as they please, and there's evidence to suggest Meredith was tacitly if not unofficially condoning Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations.

Contrast to Loghain who made it a point to take under his care a commoner girl that fought off bandits, trained her, and eventually gave her command of Maric's Shield -- a legion of elite Gwaren soldiers, IIRC.

And Loghain, for all his faults, was not wrong about the Orlesians.

Loghain and Meredith are two wholly different people. Loghain not only believes he's doing what's best for Ferelden's interests but is also going about doing it, even if he ultimately failed. Meredith claims to be doing what's best for the citizens, but all the available evidence points to her not acting on such claims.

Also, she was possessed by a broken, and thus more potent, lyrium idol that induced madness and possibly exacerbated her paranoia. Plus, she should never have ascended to the rank of Knight-Commander -- if she was even to be inducted into the Order -- because of how young she was when her sister, if she truly did exist, went all Abomination.