615 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

This is rather a bit--well, more than a bit, I guess, off topic, but am I the only one who wonders if Tevinter Templars probably do have a means of dealing with blood magic? We know that Tevinter does indeed have its own Templars and that they can and will act against mages, even though the "line is different," per Fenris, which is something I think we can take to be true, given his opinion of mages in general.

But Tevinter is also know to be a place where blood magic is used rampantly and openly. I think it's also quite logical that Tevinter mages know a sh*tload more about magic than any mages outside the Imperium, especially blood magic. So the Templars there must have a way of countering it. Even the mages themselves would recognize the need for Templars to have a means of dealing with blood magic, since its always going to be in the interest, factionally speaking, of one group of mages to be able to count on the Templars to capably deal with another group.

[TEWR]

Tevinter's Templars happen to be little more then glorified cannon fodder, since the Magisters control the Chantry -- who controls the lyrium the Templars require.

And barely any Templars actually can use the anti-magic abilities.

But as for blood magic? I'd assume the Templars aren't given such information. Adralla of Vyrantium faced three assassination attempts by Magisters before fleeing to Ferelden, because she was attempting to find out how to counter every aspect of blood magic.

So I'd say Tevinter's Magisters know of it, but don't let the Templars access such things. Because since the Magisters control the Circle, the Chantry, the Templars, and the politics of Tevinter, to even give the Templars a shot at defeating them would be disastrous. Their entire power base would begin to unravel at the seams.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


In terms of the entire war the Qunari were fought in, no. The Qunari actually weren't affected by the war in terms of military strength. Least, not such that they were in a negative state of being.

Snip

I'm not talking about the Qunari. I'm talking about a Kirkwall defending itself alone. Without its Templar army could it withstand invasion by any foregien power?

I never said that. Though sometimes battles have been fought with both sides knowing the relative strength of their enemies, I just think it's unfair to say the Guardsmen can't handle something because they were taken by surprise earlier by a bunch of beefed up supersoldiers. It seems to just be... misleading.

They had to have known a Quanri attack wasn't out of the realm of possibility. They should have known it was very much in the realm of possibility. And still they were throughly inadequate.

Guardsman Pretenders. They were ALL wearing Guardsmen uniforms and there were dozens of them, which they were noted to have taken by force. Which points to there being dozens of Guardsmen in stable times.Furthermore, in the few instances the City Guard do make appearances in the Acts, there are way more then "a few". The barracks may be small and located in the Viscount's Keep, but then again Kirkwall as we see it in-game is small and we're supposed to believe it's big, bustling, and filled to bursting. The game does not properly reflect the true nature of the city. That does not mean I can say there are only 50 citizens in all of Kirkwall. Though given Hawke's kill count...

They are not an army. That's the bottom line. Their manifesto says Kirkwall will constript from the population in wartime as they are without a sufficient standing army.

Meredith and Loghain are the same. You just like the Mages.

[TEWR]

I'm not talking about the Qunari. I'm talking about a Kirkwall defending itself alone. Without its Templar army could it withstand invasion by any foregien power?

In times of war, which is what you're referrint to, the City Guard is allowed to become its own army by conscripting from the populus.

So... yes, they probably could. Provided, of course, they had a Guard-Captain like the one we see in the prologue.

Jeven can go die in a hole and Aveline is incompetent.

They had to have known a Quanri attack wasn't out of the realm of possibility. They should have known it was very much in the realm of possibility. And still they were throughly inadequate.

They knew tensions were flaring. They knew an attack was imminent.

They just didn't expect it so soon.

They are not an army. That's the bottom line. Their manifesto says Kirkwall will constript from the population in wartime as they are without a sufficient standing army.

An army is not needed to police a city.

And had Meredith actually attempted to work with the City Guard in Acts 2 and 3 instead of refusing to help, bullying them, and trying to consolidate power (when she's proven more often then not to never once keep the city truly safe, even in Act 3 with the Bloodragers of Hightown, where Templars are garrisoned), then some points would be cast in her favor. Because then there'd be a joint effort to police the city.

But no, she does not do what is needed for me to believe her fit to be an acting Viscountess, unofficially or officially.

Meredith and Loghain are the same. You just like the Mages.

They are not. =P

While I sympathize with the Mages, like a fair deal of them, and support their cause, I also like Templars. Some, anyway. Gregoir for instance.

Gregoir, if he was placed in that situation, would've either done his job efficiently in both regards and attempted to work with Orsino -- who is not an unreasonable man, per Elthina -- or stepped down from the seat because it was too much of a headache. 

Cullen, for all the fact that I find him an oblivious twit, would've been preferable to Meredith.

Hell, even Ser Agatha would've been preferable. I liked her. I say give her a skyrocketing promotion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 05:27 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Tevinter's Templars happen to be little more then glorified cannon fodder, since the Magisters control the Chantry -- who controls the lyrium the Templars require.

And barely any Templars actually can use the anti-magic abilities.

But as for blood magic? I'd assume the Templars aren't given such information. Adralla of Vyrantium faced three assassination attempts by Magisters before fleeing to Ferelden, because she was attempting to find out how to counter every aspect of blood magic.

So I'd say Tevinter's Magisters know of it, but don't let the Templars access such things. Because since the Magisters control the Circle, the Chantry, the Templars, and the politics of Tevinter, to even give the Templars a shot at defeating them would be disastrous. Their entire power base would begin to unravel at the seams.

I'm not really convinced.  I think the Magisters actually DO have a use for templars for the reasons I said.  Or maybe I've just watched/read one story about the intricacies of political intrigue too many.  I hadn't considered Adralla, but even so I really would like to see Tevinter firsthand.  Its very existence as a stable, functioning society contradicts all that we've been told about the inevitable and apocalyptic dangers of magic.

[dragonflight288]

I'm not talking about the Qunari. I'm talking about a Kirkwall defending itself alone. Without its Templar army could it withstand invasion by any foregien power?

They should have a standing army The Red Irons mercenary force isn't the only one, as we ran afoul the Winters in Act 1. There's the city guard, and we know that the nobles of their own forces as well, as part of the Red Irons quest in Act 1 to kill that one noble, the force sent ahead of you were destroyed by Harriman's men.

The templars are simply the largest force in Kirkwall. Not the only one.

In my opinion, they shouldn't be the largest because their duties are supposed to be strictly magic related and shouldn't be involved in politics in any way, shape or form.

They had to have known a Quanri attack wasn't out of the realm of possibility. They should have known it was very much in the realm of possibility. And still they were throughly inadequate.

So was the templar force. They weren't prepared. Neither were the mages or the mercenary bands. Hawke, Meredith and the templars had to regroup before heading to High Town to rescue the Nobles.

You're not giving the guards enough credit. Let's face the fact. Aveline went there, knowing the possibility that things could go south, that's why she brought Hawke, but she, and the rest of Kirkwall, were still surprised at the attack by Kossith soldiers, each one capable of going weeks without food or drink and still be capable of fighting. Qunari don't waste time when they decide on a course of action. They simply do it. They had spent so long not fighting (except when the Chantry went out of its way to provoke them) that the city itself, while knowing it could happen, were utterly unprepared for it.

The Templars didn't prevent it either, and they're the most numerous armed force. And Meredith was already involved with politics, as explained by that guard before Hawke even enters the city. She calls the shots and the Viscount sort of went along in an effort to keep the peace.

They are not an army. That's the bottom line. Their manifesto says Kirkwall will constript from the population in wartime as they are without a sufficient standing army.

Meredith and Loghain are the same. You just like the Mages.

I do like the mages, but I recognize the templars faults and I stand by my statements past and present that Meredith caused all the blood mage problems in Act 3, because in the 7 years before it, we what, faced only 5-6 blood mages total? That sounds like a statistic normality, and if the templars did their jobs, Hawke wouldn't have had to fight them, as it seemed only Emerick and Thrask were trying to do anything about the situation.

I don't think you give the guard, the noble's armed forces, or the mercenary bands enough credit, and the templar forces too much at times, but you seem like a reasonable debater.

I disagree about Meredith and Loghain being the same. They both claim to have the best of intentions, but Loghain didn't illegally seize power in any way. His daughter, the queen, made him regent. He had crappy supporters like his messenger who kept calling him King Loghain in the Frostback Mountains and Howe was just scum, but Loghain himself...the only illegal things I can think of him doing was removing Jowan from the templars to poison Eamon, and selling the elves into slavery.

Meredith illegally seized power, illegally kept Kirkwall from running itself, had a templar Death Squad led by Ser Mettin killing non-mages in broad daylight, regularly hired extremists and sadists while the good and decent templars were left with grunt work, tried going over Elthina's head to get approval for the Right of Annulment, and called it on the most paper-thin technicalities when she was able to do it legally, and no longer sought to search the tower as she had been demanding not 15 seconds earlier.

Loghain was actively trying to save Ferelden, and went to extremes to do so, but Meredith was meddling in politics before Hawke showed up, set up a lot of the anti-mage policies a few years before Orsino even became First Enchanter, and that was only because no one else wanted the job. She blatantly abused her authority on many levels.

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In times of war, which is what you're referrint to, the City Guard is allowed to become its own army by conscripting from the populus. So... yes, they probably could. Provided, of course, they had a Guard-Captain like the one we see in the prologue. Jeven can go die in a hole and Aveline is incompetent.

A group of commoners can beat the Orlesian army, or the Imperial army?

They knew tensions were flaring. They knew an attack was imminent. They just didn't expect it so soon.]

Donald Trump -- "Aveline, you're fired." Its her job to expect it and prepare accordingly.

An army is not needed to police a city.

But an army is needed to protect one. And who has their own building, a very large one? The Templar Order. Meredith has the largest unit of Templars in Thedas.

And had Meredith actually attempted to work with the City Guard in Acts 2 and 3 instead of refusing to help and bullying them, then some points would be cast in her favor.

???

They are not.

They so are. I'll respond to your list later. You should compare them side by side and not single out Meredith's actions.

While I sympathize with the Mages, like a fair deal of them, and support their cause, I also like Templars. Some, anyway. Gregoir for instance. Gregoir, if he was placed in that situation, would've either done his job efficiently in both regards or stepped down because it was too much of a headache.

Greagoir who said he would lay down his life and that of every mage in the Circle to protect the people? Greagoir who said he would raze the Circle to the ground and was simply waiting for reinforcements to do so?

Cullen, for all the fact that I find him an oblivious twit, would've been preferable to Meredith.

Cullen who said mages aren't people like we are? Who said you can never trust a mage?

Hell, even Ser Agatha would've been preferable. I liked her. I say give her a skyrocketing promotion.

You'd like Ser Evangeline from Asunder. I find her a bit too soft. A bit too Mary Sue. And I don't at all understand her attraction to Rhys. I like Cassandra's edge. She supports Justina's cause but she didn't give up the harsh attitude.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 12 avril 2013 - 05:39 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Greagoir who said he would lay down his life and that of every mage in the Circle to protect the people? Greagoir who said he would raze the Circle to the ground and was simply waiting for reinforcements to do so?

Greagoir was far and away more reasonable than Meredith.  He wanted to Annul the Circle out of necessity; he wasn't slavering at the mouth to do it because he wanted an excuse for a bloodbath.  He shows rather obvious emotional distress over the whole dilemma--and in a way consistent with his character.  He's the ideal sort of Knight-Commander: a person who'll do an ugly but necessary job when it is the only reasonable action, but without, y'know, reveling in the slaughter.

Cullen who said mages aren't people like we are? Who said you can never trust a mage?

I agree that Cullen said some things that make it clear he's not suited to the job.  I don't understand why people think of him as such an awesome guy, when his rather sudden attack of reasonableness is completely at odds with his earlier comments, such as the ones you refer to.  Still, he IS a far better option than Meredith, which I think was TEWR's point:  arguing that person X is a better choice than Meredith is in no way saying that they're a good one over all. 

[TEWR]

A group of commoners can beat the Orlesian army, or the Imperial army?

You'd be surprised. One, Kirkwall is a very defendable location. Two, commoners defeated the Orlesians once before (Ferelden), so they could do it again.

Three, historically I believe commoners joined armies in times of war and helped win major battles.

Donald Trump -- "Aveline, you're fired." Its her job to expect it and prepare accordingly.

Right... just how is she supposed to do that? She can't just conscript people, because one they're not at war and two it'd be done for the reasons of what might happen. And three, it might just cause the war.

The most she can do is try to keep the situation from boiling out of control, especially with the Viscount in a depressed state. She can tell her guards to be ready for an attack -- which she may have done, but they were still overpowered by Qunari supersoldiers -- but she can't try and bolster their numbers.

I believe the Viscount actually explained why he can't just use the City Guard against the Qunari earlier in the act itself. Recruiting from the populus, when Qunari tensions are flaring, would not work out well.

It'd make things worse, if you ask me.

So she took some of her guardsmen, I suspect she may have talked to them about being ready (the fact that Donnic and other Guardsmen from preceding Acts survived speaks to them having been ready), and she took Hawke who has been serving as a diplomat between the Qunari and the Viscount.

Such that the Qunari have a respect for Hawke, potentially.

I'd say given the circumstances, this is one of the few moments where she's competent. Condemning the entire City Guard as being incapable of handling a task because they were taken by surprise just isn't right. It's not indicative of their capacity to handle policing the city.

But an army is needed to protect one. And who has their own building, a very large one? The Templar Order. Meredith has the largest unit of Templars in Thedas.

Okay, one, it's not their own building. They share it with the Mages and it's owned by the Chantry.

Two, the original response you were referring to -- an angry mob -- is precisely what the City Guard can contend with. They're heavily armed and armored whereas the commoners would have pitchforks, kitchen knives, maybe some daggers, and other things that don't really make weapons for war and their peasant clothes on.

And that's IF it formed at all.

The entire purpose of a police force is to protect the city from itself. The Kirkwall City Guard are the police force of Kirkwall. The Templars are only necessary in helping the City Guard deal with magical threats to the city.

An angry mob is not a magical threat. 

If the city wanted to tear itself apart through political infighting after the Viscount's death, that's their choice and they're allowed to do it. The Templars involving themselves was unnecessary and an illegal usurpation of power.

???

Fact: The Templars have been ordering the Guardsmen about in Act 3 as if they're the ones in charge of them, such that the Guardsmen have taken issue with it and have given the Templars "a run for their sovereigns"

Fact: Aveline had, not three years prior, requested Templar forces to assist the Guardsmen in protecting the city from magical threats. Meredith refused. The entire point of the Order is to protect mundanes from magical threats and mages from the mundanes. Meredith isn't doing either, but here she's showing that she has no interest in doing the former. Evidenced by...

...the fact that she does not investigate the foundry when Emeric brought to her enough information to warrant an investigation. Information I posted on the previous page and don't want to repeat.

Fact: The Templars tried to remove Aveline from her post so that they could take over the City Guard. Sure, rumors were the source of the decision on Meredith's part, but it still shows that she wants to consolidate power.

You should compare them side by side and not single out Meredith's actions.

They're still different.

Greagoir who said he would lay down his life and that of every mage in the Circle to protect the people? Greagoir who said he would raze the Circle to the ground and was simply waiting for reinforcements to do so?

Silfren covered this, but...

Gregoir the man who said that when he had Abominations pouring out of the woodwork? Gregoir the man who did not like what he had to do, but did it out of necessity? Gregoir the man that felt Cullen's overwhelming zeal after his experience was not right for him to be a Templar watching over Mages, so he sent him to Meredith instead?*

Gregoir, the man who still abides by Chantry law and is willing to accept the First Enchanter's word on the Circle's safety because they hold that much respect for each other?

Yes, that Gregoir. What he did was out of necessity, not out of pleasure. As opposed to Meredith, who derives a sick pleasure from what she's about to do and is going to build a new Circle on top of the old for the wrong reasons. 

*Which I personally headcanon as him saying "You'll see here why being too zealous in your duties is a bad thing" and it's for Cullen's own benefit. But then maybe I'm seeing a father-son relationship between the two that doesn't exist. And an animosity between Gregoir and Meredith.

Cullen who said mages aren't people like we are? Who said you can never trust a mage?

Silren also covered this.

He's an oblivious twit and his lines don't pain him as ideally suited for the job, but he's at least smart enough to know where to draw the line. He questions the necessity of Meredith's RoA, is willing to accept Mages that might turn out to be claiming innocence so as to escape and will bear such fault accordingly, and other things.

He also says some things that paint him in a negative light, but by Act 3's end he has potential to be the next Gregoir.

But regardless, he's a BETTER choice then Meredith. Doesn't mean that during DAII he was the perfect one.

A bit too Mary Sue

Lucy, you've got some esplaining to do.

Mainly because Mary Sue is so often misused these days, that when somebody says X is Mary Sue I'm not certain whether I should take it seriously.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 06:59 .

[lil yonce]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They should have a standing army The Red Irons mercenary force isn't the only one, as we ran afoul the Winters in Act 1. There's the city guard, and we know that the nobles of their own forces as well, as part of the Red Irons quest in Act 1 to kill that one noble, the force sent ahead of you were destroyed by Harriman's men.

Mercenary groups won't let you use their men without it benefiting them substantially. In that regard they are no better than the Templars, and worse you'd be dealing with a roughneck or criminal element. You would rely on that to protect your city? You would associate your city with such an element? You think the Nobility will agree to that? And I did not see them anywhere in evidence during the Qunari attack. The Templars have impact. And if the private forces of the Nobility were truly substanial I suspect the City Guard would not need to conscript during wartime.

While combined the groups you mentioned could be formidable they simply are not the templars. They are not a large military trained warrior order with impressive weapons and armor. They also have Chantry clout-- attacking the Templars is attaking the Chantry as a whole and they have a vested interest in Kirkwall. Another advantage.

The templars are simply the largest force in Kirkwall. Not the only one. In my opinion, they shouldn't be the largest because their duties are supposed to be strictly magic related and shouldn't be involved in politics in any way, shape or form.

They are large in number due to Kirkwall's Veil situation. Thin Veil. More Lyrium exposure to the population. More mages. More Templars.

So was the templar force. They weren't prepared. Neither were the mages or the mercenary bands. Hawke, Meredith and the templars had to regroup before heading to High Town to rescue the Nobles.

Who is on the verge of retaking the Keep? The Templars and Mages or the City Guard? Their base is in Hightown yet the City Guard is no where to be found. The Templars came from the Gallows and were steadily progressing towards the Keep.

You're not giving the guards enough credit. Let's face the fact. Aveline went there, knowing the possibility that things could go south, that's why she brought Hawke, but she, and the rest of Kirkwall, were still surprised at the attack by Kossith soldiers, each one capable of going weeks without food or drink and still be capable of fighting. Qunari don't waste time when they decide on a course of action. They simply do it. They had spent so long not fighting (except when the Chantry went out of its way to provoke them) that the city itself, while knowing it could happen, were utterly unprepared for it.

Knowing the history of Kirkwall they should not be surprised at the ferocity or suddenness of a Qunari invasion.

The Templars didn't prevent it either, and they're the most numerous armed force. And Meredith was already involved with politics, as explained by that guard before Hawke even enters the city. She calls the shots and the Viscount sort of went along in an effort to keep the peace.

She does not call the shots. If she could run the city through a Viscount she wouldn't have needed to assume the title herself. She twists Dumar's arm and strengthens the Order's overall power and authority. He accomplishes nothing because he has Meredith on one side and the Nobility on the other. Dumar's approach to the Qunari situation is entirely his own. There is no evidence Meredith was instructing him in that regard. Additionally, the Templars are stationed in the Gallows and not in Hightown. They are not the first line of defense. Aveline should have been better prepared.

I do like the mages, but I recognize the templars faults and I stand by my statements past and present that Meredith caused all the blood mage problems in Act 3, because in the 7 years before it, we what, faced only 5-6 blood mages total? That sounds like a statistic normality, and if the templars did their jobs, Hawke wouldn't have had to fight them, as it seemed only Emerick and Thrask were trying to do anything about the situation.

She doesn't force mages to use blood magic. The majority of mages tied to The Last Holdout and On The Loose return to the Circle without confrontation. The mages that turn to blood magic should be held accountable for their actions. Does she force Huon to murder his wife with blood magic? Does she force Evelina to summon demons? No those mages are weak-willed renegades-- the very reason the Circle exists.

I don't think you give the guard, the noble's armed forces, or the mercenary bands enough credit, and the templar forces too much at times, but you seem like a reasonable debater.

Templars rule. Mercenaries drool.

I disagree about Meredith and Loghain being the same. They both claim to have the best of intentions, but Loghain didn't illegally seize power in any way. His daughter, the queen, made him regent.

He all but forced her.

He had crappy supporters like his messenger who kept calling him King Loghain in the Frostback Mountains and Howe was just scum, but Loghain himself...the only illegal things I can think of him doing was removing Jowan from the templars to poison Eamon, and selling the elves into slavery.

Treason?

Meredith illegally seized power, illegally kept Kirkwall from running itself, had a templar Death Squad led by Ser Mettin killing non-mages in broad daylight, regularly hired extremists and sadists while the good and decent templars were left with grunt work, tried going over Elthina's head to get approval for the Right of Annulment, and called it on the most paper-thin technicalities when she was able to do it legally, and no longer sought to search the tower as she had been demanding not 15 seconds earlier.

And Loghain kept Anora from ruling, arrogantly dared the Nobility to challenge his flimsy claim to leadership, plunged the country into civil war during a blight, had press gangs forcing men into service, made a selfish sadist--Arl Howe his chief partner in crime. He didn't go over anyone's head to have things his way-- he just murdered his king, the army, and its allies. He blocked potential allies in Orlesian Grey Wardens. Sold elves into slavery. Tortured nobles. And the list goes on because he felt he was doing the right thing. His crimes are far greater than Meredith's.

They are so the same.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 avril 2013 - 02:00 .

[TEWR]

[quote]He all but forced her.[/quote]

He did no such thing.

[quote]Treason?[/quote]

Treason? The battle of Ostagar wasn't winnable and Cailan chose to play the part of a soldier against Loghain's repeated advice on the matter.

How many lives should be risked to save a king when his own foolishness condemned him many times over?

Considering how soon Cailan dies after the retreat is sounded, coupled with the fact that Cailan's asenine charge into the valley -- which was NOT what Loghain said Cailan should do. He said "draw them into the valley", not "meet them in the valley" -- that exposed all their flanks resulted in them being surrouned by Darkspawn, the only thing that would've happened to Loghain and his men is that they would've attracted the Darkspawn's attention and been annihilated.

Ostagar was a failure, Cailan's death was his own doing, and no treason was ever committed.

[quote]And Loghain kept Anora from ruling[/quote]

For the reasoning that she would be too grief-stricken over Cailan's death and possibly feared it'd be made worse by fears of Ostagar, considering he views her as his little girl now and always.

[quote]arrogantly dared the Nobility to challenge his flimsy claim to leadership[/quote]

He's got more of a claim to it then Meredith.

And he didn't "arrogantly dare them to challenge him". What he did was say, very poorly, that no matter who opposed him he'd do what was needed to protect Ferelden. He's a ******-poor politician, hence his reliance on Howe.

Which, incidentally, might not have happened had Howe not killed Bryce Cousland. Loghain detests Howe but relies on his political mind -- which I find to be a crock. Howe's a political moron more often then not -- and had Bryce Cousland been alive, he would've gone to him for assistance.

The man would've been at Ostagar and seen firsthand the battle's ****tiness.

And this is all assuming he still wouldn't have gone to Anora for aid, for reasons I cited above.

[quote], plunged the country into civil war during a blight,[/quote]

Bannorn started it, or so the evidence points. They prioritized politics over uniting Loghain's banner against the Darkspawn, all the while gearing up for war.

Loghain never wanted a civil war, so I find it hard to believe he'd actively and intentionally start one. Unintentionally, yes.

But he is not a man to strike the first blow against his brothers when what he wants is a united nation so as to not seem weak in the eyes of their neighbors (Orlais) after the King's death, considering historically Orlesians took advantage of chaos to conquer new territory.

Which, yes, is what Howe did. Howe is no better then Orlais, and I'm now headcanoning that's part of why Loghain detests Howe. It's more poignant when you're a Human Noble.

Especially since David Gaider confirmed Loghain had no part in Howe's betrayal of the Couslands, whatsoever.

[quote]had press gangs forcing men into service[/quote]

Medieval armies did that. So what? The army at Ostagar was lost and he was trying to rebuild it.

[quote], made a selfish sadist--Arl Howe his chief partner in crime.[/quote]

Because he had no one he could rely on, save for Anora. Again, however, he views Anora as his little girl, forever and always. And he believes Cailan's death probably took a toll on her mind, hence the Regency. If you look up regency, it's often used if a head of state is not present, a minor, or debilitated. In Loghain's mind, Cailan's death caused the latter.

Something I'm certain Howe took advantage of.

Bryce Cousland was dead.

Eamon would've been too clouded by his familial relation to Cailan to actually understand Ostagar's failure.

Teagan never involved himself with politics, leaving Eamon to handle it while he and Cailan went hunting.

[quote]He didn't go over anyone's head to have things his way-- he just murdered his king, the army, and its allies.[/quote]

No, no, and no.

[quote]He blocked potential allies in Orlesian Grey Wardens.[/quote]

Whom he thought were repeating their age old assistance of the Chantry and Orlais in expanding their borders during Blights.

[quote]Sold elves into slavery.[/quote]

Because the Bannorn launched a civil war instead of fighting the Darkspawn under Loghain's banner temporarily, which drained the nation's coffers, while Howe stole from the treasury.

And because Wynne sabotaged his efforts to win over the Circle, which has its own fraternity dedicated to gaining money and its own craftsmen that churn out goods worth a great deal of coin.

[quote]Tortured nobles.[/quote]

Howe did that. There's no evidence Loghain knew of what Howe was doing to all these nobles.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 08:19 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Riordian, The Warden, Alistair or Lohgain proved that even without Griffons Grey Wardens will find a way to slay an Archdemon.  Griffons are useful but not required for the job and neither are mages unless they are Grey Wardens. Mages cannot stop Blights, period.  Being able to handle a large amount of darkspawn is simply a convenience.

You're forgetting a rather large, crucial detail.  "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a Blight without the armies of a half-dozen nations at his back."  This is from the mouth of a Grey Warden.  You're also forgetting that Duncan was adamant that those treaties be taken to hand so that the armies of humans, elves, and dwarves could be compelled. 

The whole freakin' point of Origins is that Alistair and the Warden couldn't face the archdemon without getting an army together first.

Grey Wardens are required to permanently kill the archdemon, but you're dead wrong to try to claim that non-Warden mages, just like a few thousand non-Warden soldiers, are not absolutely essential in helping to make that happen.  Mages are required for the job, simply because whole armies are needed for the job.  There are NEVER enough Wardens to make up for the fact that there's always tens upon tens of thousands of darkspawn standing between them, and given that Mages have the ability not only to slaughter many darkspawn at once, but also to keep alive their own soldiers...claiming that they aren't vital to the effort to end a Blight is disingenuous.

I haven't forgotten this and no I did not claim what you saying I am claiming. I am arguing against the point that mages are required in the army so much so that their very presence would have been enough to stop the Blight. I am arguing against the idea that even though Lohgain betrayed the King they still would have been able to push back the darkspawn and win the day simply because of having mages in every regiment. Hence why in a previous post I mentioned all of the major factors that caused the fifth Blight to continue for as long as it did. The death of a King, the lost of Lohgain's army, and the death of the Warden commander. These are extermely important factors in what caused the fifth Blight to push past the wilds. Mages are useful but I doubt Duncan was relying solely on them to win the fight, if so he could have invoked the right of conscription on as many mages as he needed and Calian would have allowed it cause he admired Duncan a great deal. Once Lohgain split, they were screwed and mages being in the army wouldn't have made a difference.

[TEWR]

Currently reading David Gaider's blog, specifically a post on inclusivity about people of color. But that's not what I'm going to talk about here, it's not related.

I agree with it though.

But the blog in question eventually tackles Orsino and Elven Mages in the Circle. It's not particularly relevant either to this thread, but I figure since this is the Mage-Templar one that's getting a fair bit of attention, might as well post it here.

DG wrote...

I would have liked to do more with Orsino— sadly the plots where he was supposed to be more prominent got cut, and thus he ended up not being developed as I would have liked. So while I don’t disagree that what you mention about him could have been an interesting route to take, that would have required him receiving development at all.

Which is interesting when you also factor in David Gaider's admission that Harvestino was done simply for gameplay. Sad, but interesting to know.

and...

DG wrote...

An interesting point. I will say that, for the most part, an elven mage is treated (at least within the Circles) as being a mage first and an elf second… meaning the fact they’re a mage far eclipses their race. This isn’t universally true, of course, as individual attitudes will vary… but on the average it will be true, and thus you’re unlikely to see an “elven mage faction” specifically. There will be mages who feel they’re better served by the Circles (represented by the Loyalist fraternity), and while they’re not specifically elven one could likely expect to see elves being more prominent there.

Though this only speaks to how the Circle treats Elven Mages, not the Templars or Chantry.

For reference, here are the relevant blogs:

Here is the poster talking to DG and here is David Gaider's response. DG had to snip out portions of it. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2013 - 09:34 .

[Lazy Jer]

Youth4Ever wrote...


Mages aren't citizens.

A lazy argument and untrue.

A request that was denied because it didn't have any merit.

And if you believe that after the evidence I've provided this debate is over. There is nothing more I can say.

Well then I guess it's over because we have a fundamental disagreement over what is an acceptable reason to Annul the Circle.  You seem to think the circle was not in control.  I do think it was in control.  We appear to have a fundamental disagreement in what constitutes a lack of control.

The only thing I'll say is to address the thesis statement of your original post (i.e. that Meredith calling for the Rite of Annulment is defensible.)  She may have had the legal authority at the time to call for the Rite of Annulment, since the Grand Cleric and most other Chantry big-wigs were dead.  She may have been, technically speaking, the next in line of the chain of command.  However, the facts in place  on the opposition are: (a) She requested the RoA once and was denied, ( She went over Elthina's head to Val Royous and we don't know yet what the response was (so it's inadmissible as evidence on either side) © after the Chantry was blown up Orsino gave Meredith permission to conduct that massive search she was looking for, a search that could have rooted out the existing blood mages and Orsino even offered to help, and lastly (d): Iron will or no, she was in possession of an artifact that managed to possess Bartram and even managed to possess Varric with just a fraction of it.  Thus it is also defensible to say that Meredith made the wrong call.

*shrug*

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 avril 2013 - 03:44 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You'd be surprised. One, Kirkwall is a very defendable location. Two, commoners defeated the Orlesians once before (Ferelden), so they could do it again. Three, historically I believe commoners joined armies in times of war and helped win major battles.[/quote]
The people of Ferelden aren't city dwellers and the people of Kirkwall aren't recent descendents of warrior clans. The traditions and attitudes are different.

I would believe joined is your key word. An army of commoners with few actual soldiers intermixed won't win anything.

[quote]Right... just how is she supposed to do that?[/quote]
I'm not saying she has to attack the Qunari or that she has to defeat them when they enter Hightown. But she should not be in such a scramble to find guardsmen to help retake the Keep.

She should have had a plan for the Nobility. She should have worked with them and their private forces to ensure a proper attempt to hold the Square was in place. Templar back up would have come.

They City-Guard was disorganized and they thoroughly got their butts kicked. They at least certainly required better tactics and training. Meredith and her handful of Templars win more than one fight against sizable groups of Qunari. A group of City-Guardsmen can be found dead around the body of one Qunari soldier. They suck.

[quote]Okay, one, it's not their own building. They share it with the Mages and it's owned by the Chantry.[/quote]
So you also have a mage army at the ready under the command of the Templars? Even better. And that its owned by the Chantry does not matter. If the City-Guard had its own building it would belong to the City of Kirkwall. Its still their buidling. The leader would be a guardsman. Same with the Templars. The Gallows is Meredith's wheelhouse.

[quote]Two, the original response you were referring to -- an angry mob -- is precisely what the City Guard can contend with. They're heavily armed and armored whereas the commoners would have pitchforks, kitchen knives, maybe some daggers, and other things that don't really make weapons for war and their peasant clothes on.[/quote]
So you advocate them killing the people? They're also heavily outnumbered. They lose or resort to violence against the citizens. Look at the history of riots in this country and tell me why they weren't immediately stopped.

[quote]And that's IF it formed at all.[/quote]
There is no if. It was a matter of when. MLKs murder sparked six riots across the country. Rodney King's beating sparked the 1992 LA riots. I provided an example from Asunder-- the assassination attempt on the Divine-- an attempt-- sparked the tavern incident. All mages were collectively condemned.

[quote]The entire purpose of a police force is to protect the city from itself. The Kirkwall City Guard are the police force of Kirkwall. The Templars are only necessary in helping the City Guard deal with magical threats to the city. An angry mob is not a magical threat.[/quote]
You can believe that is the only purpose the Templars serve or should serve in Kirkwall but that does not make it true. Meredith would not have the influence over Dumar she did if it were.

[quote]If the city wanted to tear itself apart through political infighting after the Viscount's death, that's their choice and they're allowed to do it. The Templars involving themselves was unnecessary and an illegal usurpation of power.[/quote]
Yes let the city burn down. Let people die. Let the Qunari Arishok advance on Thedas. On Kirkwall once more. Let them come raid the Gallows next. Let the brutal occupation begin again.

[quote]Fact: The Templars have been ordering the Guardsmen about in Act 3 as if they're the ones in charge of them, such that the Guardsmen have taken issue with it and have given the Templars "a run for their sovereigns"[/quote]
They pretty much are at that point. I understand why they resist but doing so is futile.

[quote]Fact: Aveline had, not three years prior, requested Templar forces to assist the Guardsmen in protecting the city from magical threats. Meredith refused. The entire point of the Order is to protect mundanes from magical threats and mages from the mundanes. Meredith isn't doing either, but here she's showing that she has no interest in doing the former. Evidenced by... ...the fact that she does not investigate the foundry when Emeric brought to her enough information to warrant an investigation. Information I posted on the previous page and don't want to repeat.[/quote]
We've had this debate before. As I posted murder investigations are left to the City-Guard. 

Emeric's investigation evolved beyond the scope of a finding a missing mage, and he has no substantial evidence to suspect Mharen's disappearance and Ninette's recent disappearence were connected. He simply has a "feeling". That's not much to go on. Had he informed Meredith that he felt a demonic presence in Lowtown-- her decision to end the investigation likely would have changed. She wouldn't have cause to believe Emeric was wasting his time on a wild goose chase. Emeric then reported his suspicions to the City Guard and they were slow to act. That is not Meredith's incompetence.

 [quote]Fact: The Templars tried to remove Aveline from her post so that they could take over the City Guard. Sure, rumors were the source of the decision on Meredith's part, but it still shows that she wants to consolidate power.[/quote]
So you'd still condemn Meredith for assuming the Viscount's chair but you'd give her brownie points had she let Aveline alone? That would have been rather stupid on her part. I don't think she cares about getting points cast in her favor by those who would still condemn her rule. And what does every new regime do? Install their own people in important offices. She is hardly unique. Loghain did the same making Arl Howe the Arl of Denerim. And stellar choice he made.

[quote]They're still different.[/quote]
They aren't. I'm at times a Loghain supporter and can see they are not different. Same attitude. Same motivations. Harsh and questionable methods... The beat goes on. You just like the Mages.

[quote]Gregoir the man who said that when he had Abominations pouring out of the woodwork? Gregoir the man who did not like what he had to do, but did it out of necessity? Gregoir the man that felt Cullen's overwhelming zeal after his experience was not right for him to be a Templar watching over Mages, so he sent him to Meredith instead?* Gregoir, the man who still abides by Chantry law and is willing to accept the First Enchanter's word on the Circle's safety because they hold that much respect for each other? Yes, that Gregoir. What he did was out of necessity, not out of pleasure. As opposed to Meredith, who derives a sick pleasure from what she's about to do and is going to build a new Circle on top of the old for the wrong reasons. 
[/quote]
Meredith has blood mages in her midsts. Equally bad. Meredith who comments, "It breaks my heart to do it." and "I understandy perfectly well why mages struggle as well as why the laws we uphold are so vital." after revealing the fate of her mage sister. If Greagoir felt so strongly Cullen was unfit for service he should have kicked him out of the Order as Meredith kicked out Samson-- and she did so for a much lesser reason. He instead sent Cullen to a place where he would be far more comfortable-- his views shared. Where he could flourish as a Templar-- reaching the rank of Knight-Captain in a very short span of time. Greagoir is certainly looking out for the mages of Thedas! And he does not heed Irving's word if I say he should do otherwise. Meredith takes no pleasure from it. She is stonefaced throughout. Should I say Loghain takes pleasure in abandoning the king because he does it so seemingly calm? Because he thought Cailan a fool who needed replacing?

[quote]He's an oblivious twit and his lines don't pain him as ideally suited for the job, but he's at least smart enough to know where to draw the line. He questions the necessity of Meredith's RoA, is willing to accept Mages that might turn out to be claiming innocence so as to escape and will bear such fault accordingly, and other things.[/quote]
Or he's just too naive and fickle. He can't waver forever. Does he hate mages or is he sympathetic? Does he or doesn't he approve of harsh measures and attitudes?

[quote]He also says some things that paint him in a negative light, but by Act 3's end he has potential to be the next Gregoir.[/quote]
So he has the potential to send other "Cullens" around Thedas. Strike pregant women. Listen to another's word on the state of his Circle?

[quote]But regardless, he's a BETTER choice then Meredith. Doesn't mean that during DAII he was the perfect one.[/quote]
No he is not. He has no steady conviction or ability to rule and that makes him worse.

[quote]Lucy, you've got some esplaining to do. Mainly because Mary Sue is so often misused these days, that when somebody says X is Mary Sue I'm not certain whether I should take it seriously.[/quote]
Her handling of Cole and the situation at Adamant I don't particularly like. How she expresses her reasoning foremost. Very "Poor baby" Mary Sue-ish regarding Cole. She doesn't ask for assistance from the other Templars that appear at the Fortress though she obviously needed it. No Templar hard edge to the concessions of responsibility and admissions of guilt though she is Knight-Captain. Not that she's a bad character or poorly written overall. I just prefer a Cassandra type. I haven't finished the book just yet. I'm sure she'll do other things I won't be fond of either. Have you read Asunder?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 avril 2013 - 06:24 .

[lil yonce]

Lazy Jer wrote...

A lazy argument and untrue.

Citizens they are not. They do not live in the city. They do not own property or have the right to. They can do nothing without the permission of the Chantry or Templars. They are there are bound to the Circle by Chantry law. They are completely outside the city's jurisdiction. They are residents at most but not citizens.

Well then I guess it's over because we have a fundamental disagreement over what is an acceptable reason to Annul the Circle.  You seem to think the circle was not in control.  I do think it was in control.  We appear to have a fundamental disagreement in what constitutes a lack of control.

Insurrections. Botched rebellions. Orsino's openly rebellious stance and refusual to cooperate wth Meredith. Four Quests involving Circle escapee blood mages. The Circle was out of control IMO.

The only thing I'll say is to address the thesis statement of your original post (i.e. that Meredith calling for the Rite of Annulment is defensible.)  She may have had the legal authority at the time to call for the Rite of Annulment, since the Grand Cleric and most other Chantry big-wigs were dead.  She may have been, technically speaking, the next in line of the chain of command.  However, the facts in place  on the opposition are: (a) She requested the RoA once and was denied, ( She went over Elthina's head to Val Royous and we don't know yet what the response was (so it's inadmissible as evidence on either side) © after the Chantry was blown up Orsino gave Meredith permission to conduct that massive search she was looking for, a search that could have rooted out the existing blood mages and Orsino even offered to help, and lastly (d): Iron will or no, she was in possession of an artifact that managed to possess Bartram and even managed to possess Varric with just a fraction of it.  Thus it is also defensible to say that Meredith made the wrong call.

I have defended her not searching the Gallows. All That Remains, Best Served Cold, The Last Holdouts, and On The Loose have taken place. Orsino has been throughly unhelpful. Rebellions and insurrections are cropping up with bold displays of blood magic-- mages killing citizens when they escape the Circle and summoning demons to do their bidding (Huon and Evelina-- who should handily win the superlative for most likely to become rampaging abominations)-- even supporitve Templars are slain (Ser Thrask). She (rightfully) suspects Orsino of serect blood mage knowledge. And from that I believe she came to the decision the Circle was beyond saving. She has a defensible position.

And you cannot discern she has the Idol until the very end of Act 3. Why dismiss her actions prior to that when you can follow her reasoning? I don't condemn anyone who disagrees with her course of action. That is also defensible. The Mages are people and their lives valuable. You should look sideways at someone when they say they should all be killed for a greater good. But the situation is not at all simple beyond the surface and I can defend Meredith's POV.

The Lyrium Idol reinforces her stiffness. Amplifies her disdain of magical talent and her boosts further her dedication to duty and her arrogance. I think it hardens her stance further and makes her single-minded. I don't think it prevented her from all reasoning throughout all of Act 3 however.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you don't even remember what you said, how can you be so sure you didn't misrepresent the other side?

The same way I'm quite sure I've never stolen a car despite not remembering every waking moment of my life. It's not something I usually do.  

Making the claim that people suggested killing innocent people in Orlais to help the elves reclaim the Dales is something that no one on the opposing side said, so I'm not sure how you can claim you weren't misrepresenting the other side when that's precisely what transpired.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to speculate, but that's precisely what it is. I don't understand why you put it forth as though it's fact when it isn't.

If I shoot someone in the head, there is an extremely good chance that person is going to die.
Do you actually see a flaw with my logic?

Speculating on a number of variables isn't the same thing, and I'm not certain why I need to explain this to you. It's one thing to suggest a mage may die if he's struck with a sword of mercy by a templar, but it's another thing entirely if you're suggesting that you'll save more lives by helping Meredith murder hundreds of innocent men, women, and children who are simply defending themselves and trying to flee Kirkwall. The amount of sheer speculation involved on your part makes your comparison invalid.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Loghain made a decision that he felt would save the remainder of the army, instead of feeding them to the sea of darkspawn that Cailan's forces couldn't possibly handle. Given how inadequate the army was at that point, things may have been different if Greagoir didn't prohibit all but seven of the mages from serving in the army.

During the battle of Denerim, pretty much every combat ready mage joined the battle; it's true that their numbers would have been diminished after Uldred but if we had placed one mage per regiment, their numbers wouldn't have been that high compared to the endgame, anyway; plus dwarves, golems, elves, werewolves, Redcliff, Loghain's forces and even then, the battle was won through the flimsiest of chances.
I think it's safe to say that simply having more mages in Ostagar wouldn't have turned the tide of the battle.

The Battle of Denerim involved a greater amount of darkspawn who were able to amass after almost a year, which isn't an apt comparison with the Battle at Ostagar where the darkspawn likely hadn't gathered such a force in such a short period of time.

[lil yonce]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He did no such thing.[/quote]
Then why does she cry to my Warden to come rescue her? She may not have been in danger of being killed but Anora certainly had no intention of relinquishing all power and authority to her father. IIRC she tries to advise him regarding the Bannorn threatening civil war if he does not step down and he says they're doing things his way. She then asks if he killed Cailan didn't like his answer and left in fury. Resistance.

[quote]Treason? The battle of Ostagar wasn't winnable and Cailan chose to play the part of a soldier against Loghain's repeated advice on the matter. How many lives should be risked to save a king when his own foolishness condemned him many times over? Considering how soon Cailan dies after the retreat is sounded, coupled with the fact that Cailan's asenine charge into the valley -- which was NOT what Loghain said Cailan should do. He said "draw them into the valley", not "meet them in the valley" -- that exposed all their flanks resulted in them being surrouned by Darkspawn, the only thing that would've happened to Loghain and his men is that they would've attracted the Darkspawn's attention and been annihilated.Ostagar was a failure, Cailan's death was his own doing, and no treason was ever committed.[/quote]
He does nothing to discourage the use of the Tower of Ishal. The guardsman at the gates of the tower you can speak to mentions Loghain has his men stationed in the tower and that they were not allowing anyone else in. He offers they are investigating the lower chambers. Either they created the massive hole in the floor to allow darkspawn to invade the tower-- slowing down the lighting of the signal so the battle would indeed be lost-- or he did not seal it off and warned no one.

[quote]For the reasoning that she would be too grief-stricken over Cailan's death and possibly feared it'd be made worse by fears of Ostagar, considering he views her as his little girl now and always.[/quote]
Please. He should know his daughter better than that. Five minutes after meeting her I know her better than that. Five seconds after her father is dead she is quick to defend her throne from Alistair and Eamon at the Landsmeet.

[quote]He's got more of a claim to it then Meredith. And he didn't "arrogantly dare them to challenge him". What he did was say, very poorly, that no matter who opposed him he'd do what was needed to protect Ferelden. He's a ******-poor politician, hence his reliance on Howe. Which, incidentally, might not have happened had Howe not killed Bryce Cousland. Loghain detests Howe but relies on his political mind -- which I find to be a crock. Howe's a political moron more often then not -- and had Bryce Cousland been alive, he would've gone to him for assistance. The man would've been at Ostagar and seen firsthand the battle's ****tiness. And this is all assuming he still wouldn't have gone to Anora for aid, for reasons I cited above.[/quote]
He has no legitmate claim to the throne and not even an army to boast to warrant stepping in as ruler. Meredith at least has the latter. Loghain is arrogant. That is his core. He thinks is judgment is the best and won't be challenged-- same as Meredith. I don't sense poor rhetoric. Had he tried at all he could have choosen softer words. He wants the Nobility to fall in line.

You elevate Loghain's character more than I believe is deserving and Bryce Cousland is not a traitor. The Couslands were stanch supporters of the Crown. Ardent Royalists. That is hammered in the Humon Noble Origin. Bryce was besties with King Maric. He would not turn on his son even if there was merit in doing so. Bryce Cousland is an idiot anyhow. He was too trusting of Howe when everyone knows he is a slimeball and who leaves their castle entirely defenseless? There is difference between faith and stupidity.

After asking if its wise to take all of Highever's men to Ostagar-- 
Human Noble (paraphrase)"What if you can't hold the darkspawn at Ostagar?"
Bryce (parapharse)-- "You'll do your best. I know it. But we shouldn't talk of such ominous things. We should assume all will go well and the Maker will watch over us."

-----

I readily conceed Meredith is harsh and arrogant and has a disdain for magic. Can you not admit Loghain's faults?

[quote]Bannorn started it, or so the evidence points. They prioritized politics over uniting Loghain's banner against the Darkspawn, all the while gearing up for war. Loghain never wanted a civil war, so I find it hard to believe he'd actively and intentionally start one. Unintentionally, yes. But he is not a man to strike the first blow against his brothers when what he wants is a united nation so as to not seem weak in the eyes of their neighbors (Orlais) after the King's death, considering historically Orlesians took advantage of chaos to conquer new territory. Which, yes, is what Howe did. Howe is no better then Orlais, and I'm now headcanoning that's part of why Loghain detests Howe. It's more poignant when you're a Human Noble. Especially since David Gaider confirmed Loghain had no part in Howe's betrayal of the Couslands, whatsoever.[/quote]
And he didn't prevent the civil war when he could have by stepping down. Its his way or the highway. Arrogance.

[quote]Medieval armies did that. So what? The army at Ostagar was lost and he was trying to rebuild it.[/quote]
Press gangs don't endear him to the people. Check out Orlais in Asunder. And the army shouldn't have been lost. Alistair comments they were winning. The darkspawn would be defeated had Loghain charged when he should have. The loss is his fault.

[quote]Because he had no one he could rely on, save for Anora. Again, however, he views Anora as his little girl, forever and always. And he believes Cailan's death probably took a toll on her mind, hence the Regency. If you look up regency, it's often used if a head of state is not present, a minor, or debilitated. In Loghain's mind, Cailan's death caused the latter.[/quote]
Answered. She's the Queen who's been running the country for years and not a child. She can certainly handle responsibility. She makes every effort to take back what he took from her.

[quote]Something I'm certain Howe took advantage of. [..] Bryce Cousland was dead.[/quote]
Previously answered.

[quote]Eamon would've been too clouded by his familial relation to Cailan to actually understand Ostagar's failure.[/quote]
Or he would have realized Loghain is arrogant and despises Cailan and that he took advantage of the situation to elevate himself to King.

[quote]No, no, and no.[/quote]
Yes he did.

[quote]Whom he thought were repeating their age old assistance of the Chantry and Orlais in expanding their borders during Blights.[/quote]
And Meredith has some paranoia greater than his? No. If there is a level of paranoia for either party it is the same.

[quote]Because the Bannorn launched a civil war instead of fighting the Darkspawn under Loghain's banner temporarily, which drained the nation's coffers, while Howe stole from the treasury.[/quote]
Because he wouldn't step down. That's all he had to do. He has no right to the throne. No army of his own to defend Ferelden. And is easily painted as an usurper. Let Anora rule instead. Problem solved. Just not his game was it.

[quote]And because Wynne sabotaged his efforts to win over the Circle, which has its own fraternity dedicated to gaining money and its own craftsmen that churn out goods worth a great deal of coin.[/quote]
Because she understood he was a traitor. She don't like his kind.

[quote]Howe did that. There's no evidence Loghain knew of what Howe was doing to all these nobles.[/quote]
Howe is under his command. You have readily condemned Meredith for abuses commited by Templars under her leadership. I said that was unfair. You ignore me. /TwoCanPlayThatGame.

They are indeed the same. You just like the Mages. 

p.s. I love playing devil's advocate.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

Without Griffins, Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore to deal with the winged Archdemons. What Riordian did to injure an Archdemon was a matter of luck. And the Archdemons lead the hordes of darkspawn, which could be hypothetically dealt with by mages - as Duncan notes to the mage protagonist when he explains why he wants a mage in every regiment (since Duncan acknowledges that a mage can deal with large groups of darkspawn with his or her powers).

Hazegurl wrote...

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

I'd say it was obvious Cailan and his armies were screwed with or without Loghain and his troops given the number of darkspawn who were approaching them, which wasn't helped by Greagoir only permitting seven mages to help stop the darkspawn at Ostagar. 

Riordian, The Warden, Alistair or Lohgain proved that even without Griffons Grey Wardens will find a way to slay an Archdemon.  

I didn't claim the Grey Wardens couldn't deal with the Archdemons without griffins. My point was that the Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore because griffins are extinct, which makes it more difficult to deal with the Archdemons, meaning that the Blights can last for years, or even decades (as they previously did in the past). In dealing with the Blight, large amounts of darkspawn are going to be an issue as long as the Archdemon is alive, giving them cunning intellect and making them all the more dangerous.

Hazegurl wrote...

Griffons are useful but not required for the job and neither are mages unless they are Grey Wardens. Mages cannot stop Blights, period.  Being able to handle a large amount of darkspawn is simply a convenience.

The Fifth Blight wasn't the norm but an exception, since it ended in such a short period of time. Typically, the Blights have taken years - or even decades - to end. As Silfren pointed out with her Duncan quote: "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a Blight without the armies of a half-dozen nations at his back."

That means that the amassed armies of darkspawn are going to be an issue while the Archdemon is alive. Mages can be an asset, but simply having seven mages isn't going to help turn the tide of the battle, especially when the darkspawn have their own magic at hand.

[dragonflight288]

The Fifth Blight wasn't the norm but an exception, since it ended in such a short period of time. Typically, the Blights have taken years - or even decades - to end. As Silfren pointed out with her Duncan quote: "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a Blight without the armies of a half-dozen nations at his back."

That means that the amassed armies of darkspawn are going to be an issue while the Archdemon is alive. Mages can be an asset, but simply having seven mages isn't going to help turn the tide of the battle, especially when the darkspawn have their own magic at hand.

I would also like to add that the fifth blight was unnatural as it was the Architect, that awoke the Archdemon, and so it started suddenly without much preparation, and the only reason it was defeated was because the grey wardens managed to draw the archdemon to the top of Fort Drakon and cripple it wing so it couldn't fly, killing Riordin in the process. If they didn't get to the archdemon, the darkspawn would've won the battle of Denerim. The darkspawn outnumbered the Grey Warden's army 3-1 (Oghren and Sten both acknowledge this at the gate, and both have spent their entire lives as warriors.)

[Lazy Jer]

Two questions: 1. How did we get on the subject of Loghain? and 2. How is there any doubt at all that Loghain is a traitor?

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages can be extremely useful, and if Duncan's suggestion to put a mage in every regiment was actually utilized, there may not have been a Fifth Blight to begin with.

I highly doubt this. Grey wardens stop Blights not mages (unless they are wardens).

Without Griffins, Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore to deal with the winged Archdemons. What Riordian did to injure an Archdemon was a matter of luck. And the Archdemons lead the hordes of darkspawn, which could be hypothetically dealt with by mages - as Duncan notes to the mage protagonist when he explains why he wants a mage in every regiment (since Duncan acknowledges that a mage can deal with large groups of darkspawn with his or her powers).

Hazegurl wrote...

It was pretty obvious that Duncan and Co. were screwed the moment Loghain sent away his troops.  It's lack of support from an army, the lost of a King, and the death of a Warden commander that allowed the Fifth Blight to happen. Mages are useful but hardly indestructible.

I'd say it was obvious Cailan and his armies were screwed with or without Loghain and his troops given the number of darkspawn who were approaching them, which wasn't helped by Greagoir only permitting seven mages to help stop the darkspawn at Ostagar. 

Riordian, The Warden, Alistair or Lohgain proved that even without Griffons Grey Wardens will find a way to slay an Archdemon.  

I didn't claim the Grey Wardens couldn't deal with the Archdemons without griffins. My point was that the Grey Wardens don't have aerial capabilities anymore because griffins are extinct, which makes it more difficult to deal with the Archdemons, meaning that the Blights can last for years, or even decades (as they previously did in the past). In dealing with the Blight, large amounts of darkspawn are going to be an issue as long as the Archdemon is alive, giving them cunning intellect and making them all the more dangerous.

Hazegurl wrote...

Griffons are useful but not required for the job and neither are mages unless they are Grey Wardens. Mages cannot stop Blights, period.  Being able to handle a large amount of darkspawn is simply a convenience.

The Fifth Blight wasn't the norm but an exception, since it ended in such a short period of time. Typically, the Blights have taken years - or even decades - to end. As Silfren pointed out with her Duncan quote: "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a Blight without the armies of a half-dozen nations at his back."

Hundreds of years, even.  The first Blight raged for nearly two hundred years and the second one for almost a full century.  The people of Thedas don't know how bloody lucky they are, given that the Wardens managed to end the latest Blight after only a year's time, despite all the obstacles stacked against them.

[GeminiParadox]

Here's another thought. Murdering every mage in Kirkwall would not make the situation more stable. Instead, it would fuel more mages to rebel because of the outrage of an entire Circle being slaughtered. It would likely lead to more acts of terrorism, not less. If Hawke really wants to preserve peace in Kirkwall, then it is best to head off Meredith's paranoid scheme and support a more level-headed Templar leader who does not have a blind hatred of all mages. If Meredith had any sense, she would be more diplomatic and bring Anders, the one responsible, to justice, rather than inciting mages to act out by declaring a Rite of Annuelment.

Once again, I also argue that the Circle mages cannot be judged by the actions of apostates. Hawke does not interact with many Circle mages. There is no proof that a majority of them were corrupted or a danger to Kirkwall.

A pro-Mage Hawke ensures that reason wins out over blind paranoia.

[lil yonce]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Two questions: 1. How did we get on the subject of Loghain? and 2. How is there any doubt at all that Loghain is a traitor?

I know TWER loves Loghain. I compared his beloved to Meredith-- the Wicked Witch of the West apparently. I stated I can't understand how he can love Loghain and hate Meredith when they are the same. He denies they are the same. I defend they are.

Exactly. He is a traitor. Even if he or his supporters believe he is commits treason for acceptable reasons.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 avril 2013 - 12:22 .

[Lazy Jer]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Two questions: 1. How did we get on the subject of Loghain? and 2. How is there any doubt at all that Loghain is a traitor?

I know TWER loves Loghain. I compared his beloved to Meredith-- the Wicked Witch of the West apparently. I stated I can't understand how he can love Loghain and hate Meredith when they are the same. He denies they are the same. I defend they are.

Exactly. He is a traitor. Even if he or his supporters believe he is commits treason for acceptable reasons.

I, myself, dislike both of them.