[quote]He demanded that they submit under his regency. They didn't have to and had every right to question him and his methods.[/quote]
I'm not saying they don't have the right, I'm saying there are bigger issues to worry about then whose ass is warming the throne.
[quote]Gaider(Why Loghain poisoned Eamon): "Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in
anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged."
So the Bannorn should believe Loghain and put their full trust in him because...[/quote]
Yea, considering in-game evidence contradicts Gaider's "testimony" on the whole when Eamon was poisoned schtick, I'm not buying it.
Eamon was well enough before Ostagar to send his greetings to Cailan and remind him of how close they were.
In the Magi and HN origins, you find that Loghain is at Ostagar with the king and when you arrive at Ostagar you find out Loghain's the reason the battles have gone so smoothly in the first place.
And Jowan met Loghain in Denerim, after Loghain's men took him away from Irminric. Loghain could not ride from Ostagar to Denerim, give Jowan his orders, and then ride back to Ostagar and not only be responsible for all of the victories there but also make it there before us.
Plus, in all of the origins Duncan says they must leave
immediately for Ostagar. He uses the words immediately. Not to mention in a few of the origins -- the DC, for example -- it makes no sense for him to leave right away like he says he'd do, when DG wants us to apparently believe Duncan went searching for other recruits elsewhere.
Which if he was doing that, then he wouldn't have left Orzammar with the DC until after the DN's feast, where he would've not only met the young prince but also eventually found him in the Deep Roads and taken him along with him.
So yeah, Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar. And although Ser Donall says he fell ill before the king's death, that doesn't mean Eamon was poisoned before Cailan's demise. It just means Eamon was sick.
Personally, I like to think that Eamon had a severe affliction that compromised his immune system, which made the poison administered to him speed up in how effective it was.
And besides, the Bannorn doesn't know what Loghain did, so they have no reason to distrust him. The man's a celebrated hero and yet you have people like Teagan questioning the
General of their armies who was actually there at Ostagar and raised Cailan practically, when Teagan wasn't there at all.
The fact that Teagan doesn't believe Cailan was a glory-hounding fool is just Teagan being delusional. Cailan goes on and on about glory and how he wants some of it.
And Loghain never wanted to kill Eamon. The poison was only intended to render him comatose, which is supported by what happens in-game. Berwick was tasked to report changes on Eamon's condition, Eamon is comatose throughout the game, and despite the Demon's claims she was not what was keeping him alive. She said if she died, so did he.
Well, she died, but he didn't.
[quote]Gaider on the beacon: "Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the
battle in time."
Hm, seems like Loghain planned to ditch the King the whole time. Sure he didn't know whether or not he would until it was lit but he plotted to leave the King to die he just needed a good lie to cover his tracks.[/quote]
No.
You're not the first person to make this incorrect assertion. In fact, you're probably #3,689. Planning out a retreat is something any halfway decent general does. You ALWAYS make contingency plans if the worst should happen.
That doesn't mean Loghain was planning to "ditch his king". It means that if the plan put forth turned out to not be one that would work, he wanted to at least have an avenue of escape. Preferably with the king not in danger.
Loghain repeatedly told Cailan during the course of their time there, before we arrive and during, that Cailan should stay off the front lines. REPEATEDLY. Loghain came up with a plan of retreat should the worst happen on the field, like any general should do. That doesn't mean "Well, I really want my king to go out there and fight so I can abandon the army he's with".
If he wanted Cailan dead or out of the picture, there are better ways of going about it that don't involve the deaths of the forces in the valley. Poison, assassins, a conk on the head where he's locked away, etc.
And he's sincerely pained by the fact that Cailan is dead, even if Cailan killed himself. Confront him about it in the Landsmeet and he says "You think I don't care? He was my king! He was Maric's son!" and the toolset notes show that he is sincere in his care about Cailan.
As much as Loghain hated Cailan's foolish idealism and recklessness, he loved Cailan as if he was his own child.
[quote]You're arguing as if I said Cailan is smart. He's not, he's just not as dumb as Loghain.[/quote]
Cailan has less intelligence then a cart full of bricks. Loghain is leagues smarter then Cailan. He was right about Orlais, right about Ostagar, and so on.
[quote]A better morale asset is a King on the throne and a large number of Grey Wardens who are well known for fighting darkspawn and ending Blights.[/quote]
A king who makes overtures to the nation that enslaved them for almost a century and is ruled by a woman known for her expansionist's mindset like that of her predecessor Drakon I. A king who was ready and willing to accept aid from them when it's shown in-game that Orlais
lied about how many troops they were sending -- which indicates an ulterior motive.
Yes, because that'll go over well. You can see in Ostagar that the soldiers are not thrilled about Cailan's bringing the Orlesians to help. The nobility wouldn't have been happy either. Many nobles still resent Orlais for what they did to their homeland and people.
Cailan was even considering putting Anora aside, which would've angered many people as well as she was known to be the true person ruling the nation by many nobles. Whenever Cailan would've done that, it would've angered Loghain -- as in RtO he did not know about Cailan's plans, due to his comments on the matter. Worse still if he planned to wed Celene in Anora's place.
As for the Grey Wardens, well, it would've been nice if Duncan had been smart enough to keep a few of his senior Wardens elsewhere in the battle -- or with Loghain's men -- so that if something did happen to make the battle a disaster they could've retreated.
Duncan knew that no plan is guaranteed to go off without a hitch, and yet he had every Warden down in the valley and his two rookies in a tower.
Both areas do not allow for an escape. It's only by divine providence that the Warden and Alistair get out of Ostagar.
Loghain may have put a bounty on their head, but the Wardens' deaths are not on his hands.
And let's examine how not only are there an ocean of Darkspawn surrounding what little troops are left thanks to Cailan's idiotic charge out of the chokehold that protected their flanks -- and his troops have not only cracked under pressure, but have been backed into a corner as well -- but the fact that Cailan dies soon after the retreat call is sounded.
Even if Loghain had charged when the beacon was lit, Cailan couldn't have been saved. Darkspawn surrounded him like a blackened ocean, and Loghain's men would've been caught trying to fight through and fail regardless. He still would've died, and all that would've happened is that the Darkspawn would've noticed Loghain's men and relentlessly pursued them as
they tried to flee.
However, this does not mean that Loghain couldn't have done one thing. He couldn't devote his entire regiment to the battle, but he could send an elite group of soldiers -- how many, I dunno. Maybe 40, maybe 150, but not a lot to draw attention to his men -- to attempt to save Cailan, success or failure being irrelevant.
If they succeed by some sheer stroke of luck, great! Loghain can then take his king back home with him and begin to make him see reason or at least lock him away in the castle at Denerim so he won't interfere. If they fail, then he can bring it up to the Bannorn and say that he tried to save his king without compromising the forces under his command and failed, something he regrets.
However, this is the politically sound move.
Loghain has never been, nor will he ever hope to be, a good politican.
[quote]Letting your King die is not what's going to make a country stable and ready to fight the Blight.[/quote]
Hence why he told the Bannorn that they must defeat the Darkspawn immediately and sensibly, without weakening themselves after Ostagar. He wanted the Bannorn to unify under his banner and not seem weakened by the death of Cailan in the eyes of Orlais and tear themselves apart with infighting.
Cailan could not be saved. Hell, Cailan's confidant says that for all of his outward bravado to the troops, Cailan knew the battle was going to be a hopeless failure and still he fought on -- an irresponsible move to make if you know failure is assured.
And Loghain wanted to avoid civil war because of Cailan's death, something Loghain never wanted.
You operate off of a romanticist's mindset where sacrificing thirty-thousand men to save one man is the supposed right call, when it's not that simple. Never mind how Maric had once told Loghain that no one, not even the king, is more important then the nation and the people fighting for it.
[quote]And Cailan, I don't recall him refusing reinforcements, wasn't he attacking before they arrived?[/quote]
"Your uncle sends his greetings and
reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here in less then a week." -- Duncan.
Reminds. That's the key word. Cailan has been refusing the reinforcements of Redcliffe who are in close proximity to Ostagar and with a fair deal of manpower. But Cailan did not tell his uncle to come to Ostagar, for two reasons:
1) First and foremost, in the past the two got into a very heated discussion over the matter of setting Anora aside. At first, Cailan refused to do such a thing, but as time went by he started to consider the notion. It's implied that he was planning to do it with Empress Celene, in the idealistic notion that peace would be achieved between the two nations. I'm sure Celene's youth had something to do with that as well.
It's never that simple.
The reason for the whole Anora issue was because Eamon believed her to be barren, but as you find out from Anora herself Cailan routinely had mistresses on the side and yet you never hear of any bastard heirs of his, which says that he was shooting blanks.
2) He also says that Eamon just wants in on the glory, showing once more that all that Cailan has on his mind are glory, legends, and idealistic notions.
And if you ask Duncan what he'd have the king do, he says Cailan should "wait for reinforcements". But Cailan isn't waiting. He wants the battle to go ahead when, as I said, he knew it would be a failure and he's even baiting his general into going through with it by bringing up the one topic that Loghain hates: Orlais.
If Cailan won't wait for reinforcements from his uncle over a petty grudge due to a spat they had in the past and because of glory, while also knowing the battle he's going into isn't going to be won, then why the hell should I believe he'll wait for Orlais when they're going to take weeks if not a month or so to reach Ostagar as all of their troops have to move through a narrow mountain pass to reach Ostagar?
[quote]As for Loghain, It's not fear of Orlesians the people of Fereldan are currently running from. Loghain was going to be the cause of the country's collapse and the spread of the Blight because he chose to remain ignorant and stubborn to the point where he sabotaged the battle at Ostagar or tried to.[/quote]
Yeah, kinda hard to say he's choosing to be ignorant. When the Wardens kept saying "Guys, what we have here is a Blight" and were asked how they knew, all the Wardens would say is "We've got.... feelings. We believe it with every bone in our body"
That's vague and just makes people think that the Wardens aren't certain if it's a Blight or not. The Wardens chose to keep everyone except their own people in the dark on how they knew it was a Blight, despite adamantly holding to the mantra of "We Wardens will do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights."
WHATEVER IT TAKES. I don't see them allowing Cailan and Loghain to know their secrets in a confidential meeting. So obviously, they're not holding true to that mantra.
You cannot say Loghain is at fault for deeming the Wardens unnecessary when he was never given a good reason to believe they were necessary, more so because you're operating off of a mindset of what you and your Warden know to be true.
As far as he was concerned, they could've just been soldiers that devote their life to fighting Darkspawn all the time. That doesn't mean they're necessary, it just means they're skilled and impressive (something Loghain notes them as being. Impressive, that is).
And one should note that the Wardens' vault in Denerim was raided by Loghain's men, the encrypted documents taken and deciphered. Elsewise, how else could Anora know the ramifications of the Joining? So obviously Loghain was intending to learn as much about the Wardens as he could, since they wouldn't tell him, and he probably wanted to make his own Wardens that he could vouch were loyal to Ferelden.
[quote]A character flaw that is stated about him is that he sticks to his decisions whether they are good or bad, that does not make for a good regent of any country. And anyone who trusts Howe deserves an official stamp of stupid. (looking at you too Bryce Cousland)[/quote]
Two things: that "character flaw" comes from Alistair, who makes no secret of his hatred of Loghain for the death of his father-figure Duncan. So, Alistair's perception is skewed.
Secondly, Loghain didn't trust Howe. He relied on the man for his (supposed) political intellect, but he didn't trust him as far as he could throw him. By this point in the game, Howe has taken control of the greater part of the Coastlands by force and poses a severe military threat if antagonized.
Not just in terms of fighting a third front, but in terms of supplies. Howe did a great many things without Loghain's knowledge or approval -- often when the Hero of River Dane was out in the field -- and Loghain detested the man. He thought himself above being manipulated by Howe.
Unfortunately, politics and war can make men weaker as time marches on, such that people like Howe do get the upper hand in manipulating people like Loghain.
[quote]So, we are going to have to agree to disagree about Loghain. We both have our own opinions on the man but this is not a Loghain thread.[/quote]
Nonsense. All threads are about Loghain, for Loghain pops up in every thread.
EMBRACE THE LOGHAIN.
[quote] I see him as a fool who just cannot let go of the past to see the real threat within his borders[/quote]
"There are those who would try to take advantage of our weakened state if we let them. "We must defeat this Darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly, and without hesitation."
What he's saying here is that he does consider the Darkspawn an immediate threat, and that he wants the nation to rally behind him. What he's bringing up is Orlais, who historically and repeatedly would swoop in to save nations too weakened by the Blights and their own civil problems to stand a chance, and then never leave.
He recognizes the immediate threat, but he wants Ferelden to stand united and appear as if the King's death -- while tragic and heavily mourned by the people -- will not destroy them from within. At the very least, not until the nation is safe from the Darkspawn.
And as you find out later in the game from Riordan and Loghain, there's a large difference in how many men were sent from Orlais. Two dozen divisions of cavalry were brought with Riordan, whereas Cailan and Loghain were led to believe four legions were on their way.
And a legion is a smaller military unit then a division. Meaning Orlais lied. Meaning Loghain was right.
I mean seriously, have you read some of what Orlais did to the people of Ferelden? They sold Elves like cattle, torched homes, murdered people, raped women, killed Loghain's father and Mabari, and in the case of the Baroness took the people under her care as blood slaves to fulfill her vain desire to remain youthful.
It's going to be hard to just "let go" of all of that. A nation that engaged in slavery, murder, rape, and blood magic to the citizens of another nation is not just a little scrape in diplomatic relations. That's taking a .50 caliber rifle to an old man.
Besides, Loghain is not a man poisoned by his hatred like Zathrian or even Commander Raleigh of Leliana's Song -- which is the canon tale of her past, given DAII's MotA and Sketch's appearance.
[quote]With all this said, it also provides proof that it took more than a lack of mages in the battle to lose Ostagar.[/quote]
Eh, personally I wouldn't say that either. While I do consider the lack of Mages a contributing factor to Ostagar's failure, I won't say they alone could've turned the tide of battle.
But they sure as hell would've helped.
Though I would've sent the majority of the Circle -- leaving the young, the infirm, and a few teachers for the young -- and also brought along a ****load of Templars as well. Not only because logic dictates you're going to need more Templars to keep an eye on more Mages, but because of their military value as well.
And while a few Abominations
may pop up, logistically this might not be a problem. It could actually turn a loss into a win-win.
For instance, if a Mage were cornered, exhausted, and about ready to faint dead away he decided to strike a deal with a Demon. A Connor-esque deal, not a BLAARARARAGHG type deal. In exchange for giving the Demon a host to possess, the two of them would fight against the Darkspawn.
I'd imagine the Demon would want to enslave them, given that a lot of Demons tend to want to do that. Enslave the world. And it'd be hard for it to achieve any goals when the Darkspawn are assaulting it relentlessly, so it'd have to take care of them first out of self-preservation. So it'd fight... and fight... and fight... and if it was killed by the Darkspawn it'd at least take more of them down.
And it'd be weakened if still alive, and thus the Templars could kill it easily if it decided to turn against them right away. And if it continued to fight, then yay!
And thankfully, summoning more Demons wouldn't be an issue because only Pride Demons are capable of such a thing.
Assuming of course the Demon had its priorities set straight. Some do, some don't.
Granted, I just desperately want to see a scene of a Mage going Abomination when faced against a ****load of Darkspawn, and they're just fighting each other.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 avril 2013 - 08:04 .
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