Dev Question: Warrior class
#101
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 10:49
And compared to a mage or a properly positioned rogue, the DPS warriors usually aren't worth bringing because their output is way below those two other classes. Combined with the vulnerability, it's just not worthwhile to bring them.
I would like to see a better scaling of the armor classes in this regard, because sometimes if feels like my platewearing DPS warrior has the same armor as my leatherwearing rogue.
#102
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 10:51
[*]What do you like and dislike about the Warrior?
They die far too often. They need a lot of work in the game before warriors can become useful (of course that is part of the challenge!)
[*]Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
Not really. I think they should start with extra strength and constitution bonuses, and elf warriors should get a higher starting dexterity.
Some of the abilities don't seem to have a great deal of an effect, particularly on the Champion and Templar lines.
[*]What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
Reaver, all the way. Devour is one of the coolest things in the game.
[*]What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Favourite: Reaver, Dual Weapon, Weapon & Shield. Two Handed is also cool.
So all the ones that give me damage-dealing abilities, really.
Least Favourite: Champion, Templar. Not tried Berserker, but I suspect that one as well.
Not to beat on Alistair (Templar!) but stuff like Cleanse Area doesn't seem to do much good (at least that I can see).
#103
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 10:52
E: Cleanse Area is great to get an ally out of a crushing prison, which often means to save his life and win the battle.
Modifié par -Conspirator, 15 janvier 2010 - 10:53 .
#104
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:07
I like the looks of the warrior and the different options you have when playing one (tank, 2h, DW). I like how the warrior specs seem to be easiest to combine. Each spec is usefull, regardless of playstyle, and can be enhanced by another. This is far less true for the mage and the rogue.
I dislike the clumsy, albeit realistic, swing animation of the 2hander. I personally think they lack some interresting deathblows (I was usually crossing my fingers for the backwards stab). The DW warrior however has some really cool finishers. I also feel the warrior only talents are a bit underwhelming. The first tier is great, bravery and death blow are almost must-haves. The second tier is only relevant for a tank and only up to taunt.
[*]Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
I think balance wise warriors are pretty spot on. You can be a good tank, good dps or a bit of both. You have a nice blance between single target controll and dps, or aoe.
[*]What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
I like all warrior specs, there are however a few "end" talents that are a bit underwhelming. The last berserker talent is rubbish, no way does it damage justify the loss of all your stamina. The other three might be a bit boring but are definatly worth it.
The final templar ability is amazing on paper but works out as 'okish' in practice. It seems the mana burn check is based on your magic stat, which will be pretty low, and thus you usually have to live with the aoe stun. I personally have never "broken" a mage with smite on any of my templars. If you compare this to the anti-mage nuke that is mana clash, I feel mages are much better mage-hunters then templars.
Reaver talents are 50/50. The blood frenzy ability is awesome, especially in combination with blood rage and berserk. The aura of pain doesnt seem to scale and the hp drain hardly seems worth the upkeep however. The single target fear is just a rare opportunity for some extra controll, very good.
[*]What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?[/list
The warrior talents are a bit too scrambled. There's no need for example to have threaten if you want to go pure dps. But you NEED bravery and deathblow. The other tree is horrible. Precise striking just isnt worth the upkeep early game and becomes pretty insignificant when you have the stamina to support it. Stamina better spent with an extra special attack. Taunt is obviously a great talent, IF you're a tank. That same tank probably isnt very hot on disengage. Perfect striking comes too late in game, hitting targets wont be an issue anymore. Switching the positions of disenage with threaten would seem more reasonable. Perfect striking should either have a bonus to dmg, defence or threat rather then attack.
#105
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:29
Warriors using 2 handed weapons seem to be underpowered when compared to duel-wielding warriors. 2 handed weapons atm seem to not only hit slower but also deal less damage, although this seems to be less of a problem at higher levels with high strength (50+) and access to crowd control abilities.
My advice would be to either slightly increase the swing speed of 2 handed weapons or increase their damage a bit to bring them in line with duel-wield.
My favorite specializations for a sword and shield (tank) are champion (boosts your allies and disrupts your enemies) and templar (extra protection and damage against mages).
For damage dealing warrior (2 handed weapon or duel-wield) it's beserker (raw extra damage) and champion (control).
My least favorite specialization is the reaver.
I like all the warrior talent trees and think they all serve a purpose depending on how you build your warrior. My only concern at the moment is with damage output of 2 handed warriors, but I adressed that concern already.
Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .
#106
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:48
-Imho, compared to other games where you can use sword and shield, the damage was lacking enormously.
-Having to sacrifice strength point (for heavier armor, to tank with) and constitution (to take more of a beating) to spec into dex to unlock sword/shield didn't REALLY pay off I think.
- I think something like rage/adrenaline would fit the warrior better then the energy thing they have atm.
-As sword/shield is the tank spec (even tho the damage was low even for a tank), just having taunt didn't quite do the trick.
- Mages and especially rogues gave us a more versatile way of playing
Also, question, why was shale a better tank then a sword/shield warrior, even tho there are so many epic looking armors, weapons and (to a lesser degree) shields in the game?
And why did Shale have 2 taunts while warriors had only 1?
That said, I did enjoy the playthrough with my warrior.
Modifié par Yai-Kai, 15 janvier 2010 - 11:50 .
#107
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:54
1. I love how the warrior class was handled but I wish the sustained abilities didn't require as much stamina. Also, the glowing effects/noises of the sustained buffs can be annoying after awhile.Victor Wachter wrote...
- What do you like and dislike about the Warrior?
- Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
- What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
- What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
2. Reaver is a joke of a specialization TBH. I found nothing useful about it. The other specs are great.
3. Champion was my favorite because of the buff and aoe shout - combine it with templar for an amazing spec. Reaver, as noted above, is underpowered.
4. Sword/Shield is my favorite. My first playthrough I made a warrior and went sword/board and kept allistair as sword/board as well. I cleaned house. 2h talent needs a buff and I'd LOVE to see an unarmed spec like a monk (animations for kicking and everything).
Modifié par Valcutio, 15 janvier 2010 - 11:54 .
#108
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:54
dual-wielders get momentum. I think that something like that for a 2-hander would make things perfect.
#109
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 11:54
With the respec mod it becomes even more apparent that you'd be better just respeccing one of the NPCs if you really want a warrior in your party and then building a good mage or rogue since they have better DPS and utility than any warrior spec does. Shale was my favorite warrior in the game simply because she was a much more versatile machine than any warrior could ever be thanks to warrior specs being "put all points in 1 type of combat or you suck". If you want to design better talent trees, look at the mage ones. You could cherry pick a few lines of each spell school and not feel gimped (not counting rogues as they could get more talents through class mechanics).
And don't even get started on the idea of a warrior archer, when NONE of the specialisations supported it, and only a few of the generic sustains gave it any benefit. It felt tacked on just because warriors were missing a quarter of the talents other classes had.
Also, I really hated stamina vs mana in this game, and warriors were worse than rogues for stam management by far.
As for specs, Champion/Templar were the only sensible options. I unlocked berserker just because I could through talking to Oghren but I have yet to go get Reaver spec because after a quick look on the wiki I decided it wasn't even worth an unlock and reload.
Modifié par Dervla, 16 janvier 2010 - 01:09 .
#110
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:00
A mage can heal, do AOE attacks, buff allies, etc.
A rogue can open boxes, is effective at backstabs, and so forth (certainly not calling them perfect, but they have quite a few options)
A warrior...hits things in various ways.
I'd really like to see more in the area of Area Damage attacks, or special maneuvers that get a warrior into the action quicker (a teleport, or martial arts tree would be idea; give them some additional supernatural abilities that include utility). I'd love a more robust buff tree, one with the ability to allow the warriors to heal themselves, perhaps by taking damage (or taking damage of certain types).
Of all the classes, warriors seem the most "more of the same" with every ability. On top of that, the warrior NPCs you get are all geared towards a specific style (Champion, Berserker, Two-Handed weapons) - in future releases, I'd like to see NPCs with a more flexible style and skills that make survivability and a duel-wield built more fun.
Think...Book of Nine Swords (from dungeons and dragons) and less Tank and Spank. Not looking for DPS, just better visuals and more interesting options/utility.
Also, since Warriors are SO gear dependent (as always) making some builds use armor differently, or special armor types that affect certain builds better (or just more common lots of these) would be great. A duel-wielding warrior in special Leather Armor that gives him a 10% reduction to damage taken, or somesuch. More choices in customization.
Thanks.
#111
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:18
Like - Certainly, the Warrior does their job as well as I expected like inflicting damage, drawing enemy's attention, wearing cool staff ( very good looking ) and the Finishing Move is very beautiful.
Dislike - when their stamina is low or nearly loss, the warrior has a little thing to do so it is very hurt me and an amount of stamina should not only depend on willpower because strength or constitution should affect an amount of stamina too then the warrior will have more stamina.
# Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
I think it fairly, played as warrior you have to have Mage or Rogue support if not, warrior have to use potion as much as possible when especially encounter with the crowd.
# What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
Champion, the reason is the best support and ability to knock the crowd down.
The least is Templar, I prefer to use spell mage instead of templar like dispel magic or mana clash and Templar's talent help little in direct fight that is the main job of warrior.
# What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
The most is Taunt and disengage.
The least is threaten.
#112
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:37
Thing is... though Warriors and Rogues have plenty of differences, they still have twenty-four talents in common with each other, namely the dual weapons and archery trees (as if you didn't know that... xD). My understanding of the fundemental differences between them is that a Warrior's talents are supposed to be drawn from strength and dicipline whereas a Rogue's is supposed to be drawn from cunning and swiftness. It stands to reason, in my opinion, that even if they can equip the same types of weapons, the talents with which they use those weapons should be a little different. I'm madly in love with the dual-weapons talents, and I'm madly in love with the role-playing aspect of being a Warrior, (as well as the Champion and Templar specializations). But... Warriors can't pick locks, and I can weild the same snazzy dual-weapons talents as Rogue. So... Well, yeah, Rogue tends to win out in favor of my severe annoyance at having to switch over to Leliana to pick a lock, and because it drives me crazy that I'm missing out on looting oppertunities until I recruit her (not to mention the XP for picking the locks). If a Rogue had different weapon specific talents (aside from backstabs) I think that would make being a Warrior feel more compelling when I'm weighing how much I want to trade for the ability to pick locks.
I'm not a super huge fan of two-handed weapons talents... namely because even if my Warrior has 45 strength, they still look like they're struggling to hold up their damn greatsword. Even if there is a high-damage output when you level them up propperly, they just look weak and slow in combat, and that's not sexy (even though all the two-handed swords are supersexy). I wish there were more than four activated talents on weapon and sheild, and I also wish that sheilds could be enhanced with runes. Sheilds are sexy, but they would be sexier with more possible ways to use them offensively, and sexier still if I could load them up with runes for added damage. My absolute favorite is still dual weapons though, because everything about weilding two longswords is effing sexy. I couldn't care less about archery, to be honest.
I'm not a big fan of Berserker, mostly for all the reasons that have been stated above by others. If I feel that anything is underpowered, I would say it's the Berserker. I love all of the Templar and Champion abilities, because they are the most useful, and (of course) the sexiest -- (I do wish the Holy Smite was a smige smite-ier, though, given that Mana Clash kicks Holy Smite's ass). I have no opinion on Reaver because I've never played it, and based on the description I don't particularly care to, if I'm being honest.
Modifié par Auridesion, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:50 .
#113
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:43
Like: It's an easy class to begin with, it's a very straight forward class.
Dislike: the worrior is locked because of the talent trees if you pick shield you have to go all the way with it, there is no freedom in the aspect of picking the abilitys you like of the class not like the mage where you can freely pick something from primal and creation without losing talent point on unneeded abilitys, and the fact that there is no real difference between rouge and worrior is sad.
The worrior talent tree could be more efficient if there were some more talents. I thing it would grealty increase effectiveness if there were an engage, deengage, pasive, and a specialation tree.
"with specialation i mean that you get greater buffs for the shields or 2h talents or something like that"
Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
Underpowered: The 2h tree is to slow to make an efficient tree to use.The shield tree isn't buffed enough to make it realy efficient.
Overpowered: can't thing of something that is realy overpowered
What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
Favorite: templar is good for it's holy smite, I like reaver aura of pain, champions rally and war cry with superiority is good.
Least favorite: berserker for its cooldown and the fact it turns off every time you leave battle. templars mana-cleance because the one mages have is so more efficient.
What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Favorite: The shield tree becuse of it animations
Least favorite: must be the archer tree have never used it and probable never will.
sidenote: it would be cool if there were a Warden talent tree. maybe one that is different for each class?
I thing its sad that there is no real thing in Dragon Age that indicates that you are a warden
another sidenote: I think the game is a little stiff in the way that rouge and worrior dosn't really have that many chose for customization like you have with the mage in the game.
Modifié par nikihap, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:55 .
#114
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:48
#115
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 12:55
KigenBarzhad wrote...
Before I forget... WHERE ARE MY Adrenaline Potices (stamina potions)!?!?
For me, that was one thing I also thought was lacking.
Also I found the "Champion" to be the best specialisation, though I haven't tried the reaver
#116
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:03
So that I don't repeat, I'll just say that all these guys have valid opinions: warrior is just too boring, 2 handed weapons have too slow a swing, and sword and shield is too rigid. Maybe add newer animations? And I felt that there weren't enough offensive powers that were cool. There are only three lines, right? 2 handed is cool and powerful, and I guess the slow swing depicts that, but please make it faster. At least include a talent to make it 20% faster or something.
Ranged is boring for any class, whether rogue or warrior. It needs powerful attacks, and quickly like in the first few selections. Also, when I first saw the talent that allowed you to keep attacking if someone hit you, I thought it allowed you to perform a melee hit. I wish it did, it'd be a little more fun.
Sword and shield needs to be more versatile i.e. you can attack more than one opponent at a time (watch a medieval movie for what I mean) to spice it up.
For arcane warriors, I'm glad that you can wield swords, but find a way to make it so you don't have to put them away each time you want to cast a spell. It seems to take forever, and it might mean life or death.
#117
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:03
imikedoyle wrote...
KigenBarzhad wrote...
Before I forget... WHERE ARE MY Adrenaline Potices (stamina potions)!?!?
For me, that was one thing I also thought was lacking.
Also I found the "Champion" to be the best specialisation, though I haven't tried the reaver
Yeah - the closest thing is Deep Mushrooms, but I should be able to refine these into stam potions like I can with elfroot (health potions) and lyrium dust (mana potions)
#118
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:07
Warriors look great in massive armor & their Deathblow or special animations are smooth and fun to watch.
I liked how you didn't force warriors solely into the "pure strength" niche. Not every warrior (take Dalish elves) is a brute force.
That said, the more dexterity based ways of the warrior (DW & Archery) felt just like their rogue versions. There is definitely room for differentiation left between the two classes.
Another point is constitution being basically meaningless. At least for a Sword and Board Warrior I would have liked it to have some meaning.
Also I think auto attack can be to important (especially with DW). I would have liked a style heavy combat system much more.
To be more specific:
Warrior only talents were arranged in a strange way (taunt & disengage in one row for example), I personally however liked the fair number of passiv talents - imo an acceptable way of distinguishing warriors from rogues, could have been more distinct however, by adding one or two special attacks to it (I'm aware of the problem this might cause with two-handed weapons).
Sword & Board is imo the best balanced warrior tree, has great control, good survivability, and okish dmg output.
Also it is fun to watch as shield styles just look great.
If anything it's just a bit boring to actively play at times due to the sheer number of passive talents and therefor a lack of styles. One more attack (to be specific an AoE attack) would have been great (but that could very well be from the generic warrior talents - see above).
Two-handed is... well, personally I actually like it, but it's certainly underwhelming compared to DW in well almost every way. Imo DW should have the single target dmg, while twohanded warriors should have reasonable single target dmg, good AoE, good CC and at least some survival. Right now they are fragile (low defense), have rather low dmg and reasonable control.
DW is flat out too good - compared to other ways of fighting.
Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
DW for sure. Runes, haste, momentum, styles... single target & AoE. DW is extremely strong and not at all fragile.
Two-handed is lackluster. See above.
What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
Champion is ok, templar also... in general i don't think they are as distinct as say the rogue specializations.
What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Sword'n'Board is my favorite as it works, distinguishes from other playstyles & is well balanced and fun.
DW is my least favorite as it's just too strong compared to two-handed fighting.
Two-handed fighting is nice, can be played to some effect (if focused on survival not on pure dmg) but feels lackluster never the less.
Two things on a general note.
First of, sustained abilities imo need a fix.
There are just too many of them, of which most are rather useless (some however are too good if combined - precise striking + momentum). Imo you should only be able to use three at a time (one offensive, one defensive & one utility "stance"), all of which should have meaning, need rather little micromanagement, but their influence should be subtle (i.e. unlike momentum)
Second, Daggers imo are too good.
I understand players like them and they should have their place when say used by a rogue, but right now they profit too much from dmg auras (ice weapon etc.) and are better tank weapons than other one handed weapons as soon as your tanks dexterity is greater than his strength.
#119
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:09
Modifié par Rachmani, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:11 .
#120
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:12
While i generally really like the idea that you're not forced to play the warrior tank stereotype, Warrior's who go dual-wielding with high dexterity are no better damage dealer than a rogue, and that feels weird in a way to me.
For the sepcs: I liked the champion, it's quite useful for a Warrior. What i kinda missed was a spec similar to the rogue's Assassin spec: it has three passive skill to really increase your damage dealing ability. Champions is nice to inspire your party and, with warcry, some mild crowd control, but it would have been nice if there was a spec to really level the warrior up to a great damage dealer.
Sadly, to me Warrios feel really inferior to mages (especially the Arcane Warrior spec for mages nearly made the Warrior superfluos). To me, this could have been a bit better balanced compared to the power and abilities of mages.
#121
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:16
Also, I NEVER choose the berserker tree.
#122
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:25
#123
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:33
I like the flanking nullification in the sword and shield tree a lot.
In NWN2 when you're trying to stop the informant from getting assassinated, and all of your enemies are rogues, it didn't matter how high your AC was because 8 of them were flanking you and you'd get torn to shreds with backstabs. The skill to avoid flanking makes all rogue dungeons possible, even fun. Not quickload migraines like they have been in games past.
Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
Yes. The sword and shield tree needs aoe attacks to help them grab aggro. They need this badly. It's extremly difficult to keep enemies off, say, Wynne without it. I end up needing to assign Sten with a boatload of "enemy attacking ally: Wynne" just for that, and that's all he does since he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. That ends up being one tank per non tank, whereas ideal 4 person party has always been one tank, one healer, one rogue, one nuker.
What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
I like templar and champion. I hate beserker. The skills in that specialization kind of suck.
What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Two handed and sword and shield are good. Dual wield, since it's a tree shared with rogues, doesn't really resonate with me. If I wanted to dual wield, why wouldn't I play a rogue? Their specializations are so much better for it.
On the note of specific skills: Bravery is awesome. Precise striking and perfect striking are useless. I have encountered no enemy in the game that my warriors have trouble hitting without it.
Modifié par undeadgnomeking, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .
#124
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:52
- What do you like and dislike about the Warrior?
- Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
- What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
- What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?
for example: the only advantage of a mace vs sword is it's armor piercing capability, however in the same Tier of weapons, it's only 0.10 more, while the rest of the stats are so negativly that your better of with a sword... so improve the amount and quality of other weapons.
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2. not that I can name out top of my head, but the first reaver ability sometimes fails to work... and offcourse some of the weaponsare underpowered... also some tactics fail to work, like : when leliana drops health to<25 use Taunt, the character will actually WAIT for the character to lose that many health and thus doing nothing,evenif it's the last tactic it should be using....
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3.tied: Berserker/Reaver/Templar ------------------------------------------------------------------> Champion
I really dislike champion for some reason...
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4.well I like dual wield, though I see it more like a rogue tree, also like shield and twohanded....
however, i don't get the point of the archer tree, I can't imagine many people put points in that while being a warrior, as there are barely enough points to unlock your main stuff, and f youwant to be an archer wouldn't it be more wise to be Rogue....as they have to put poitns in dex anyhow... I can see that disengage would be handy.,... but being all Archer..... I see it more as a sub class, must try it sometime....
that said it also feels quite odd together with a spec, as most of the require close combat.
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I hope to see new and exiting talent trees in the future, I'll atleast support you guys till my points run out [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
Modifié par Knal1991, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:53 .
#125
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 02:03
What do you like and dislike about the Warrior?
[/list]Like: As someone already said, warriors get such pretty armor ^,^ Seriously though, my rogue archer is totally jealous of the neat armors they get to wear compared to his bland leather armor and the like. I also like that it's a straight forward class. Easy to get into.
Dislike:
You'd think that being in the front lines, the warrior would have to worry the most about actively reacting to how the battle is unfolding and yet playing the class requires little interactivity from the player. This is probably mostly intentional to make it easy to get into but I still would have liked to at least see the shield and sword tree require more interactivity. Using a sword and shield requires a certain rhythm of going back and forth between defending and attacking and I think it would be neat if you could somehow find a way to incorporate this aspect in the future
Also, it feels like the Archery tree is out of place in the warrior class. It requires too many points for a Warrior to invest in and even if they were to spare the points, the archery skills are mostly for debuffs and doing crowd control. Ideally, this isn't what a warrior wants to accomplish. If you're a warrior, you want ranged abilities to try and counter ranged fighters. My suggestion is that you remove the archery tree from the warrior class and replace it with a smaller tree that requires less investment, possibly a nice 1 line 4 tier tree. Not sure what the tree should be exactly though. Perhaps the tree should center around a throwing knife ability that you can use every now and then against ranged fighters.
Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Warrior?
[/list]Can't really comment on this since I haven't spent time a lot of time on this class.
What are your favorite Warrior specializations? What are your least favorite?
[/list]Favorite Specialization: Tie between Berserker and Champion. Like I said, I haven't actually played the warrior class yet but from looking at the descriptions, these two classes seem to have the most useful skills. I like how the champion has team buffs abilities. It adds some strategy to the class.
Least Favorite: Reaver, though I think this is because I have to desecrate the ashes to unlock it. Also, looking at the abilities, it doesn't really seem useful for my play style.
What are your favorite Warrior talent trees? What are your least favorite?[/list]
Favorite Tree: Definitely the sword and shield. Nothing like slamming your shield in someone's face and going "Back off! Get your own sandwich!"





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