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[Wayning_Star]

Subject M wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

Its correct if you ask me, but not the whole picture. The different endings also represent different types of sacrifices and affirm different values. Synthesis is not so much about balance as the balance is a way to break the cycle and overcome the conditions that generates the disastrous conflict.

Destroy: External synthetic sacrifice.
Control: Internal organic sacrifice (organic self-sacriice)
Synthesis: Total self seacrifice (In legions words: Direct personality dissemination required) in order to upgrade everyone at once.

Of course there are also differences in terms of EMS and so on.

Kind of reminds me of that battle field earth contraption called 'leverage'. How do we 'leverage' our advantages to survive our leverage.

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis = Rape

You can end the war by setting off a big bomb, brainwashing the enemy, or raping everyone...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 mars 2013 - 06:17 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I think that's because synthesis is imposing a new situation on organics and synthetics. It is a balance only in that it eliminates the differences that would supposedly make us destroy ourselves.

Yes, but it's important to understand the nature of the simple difference that Synthesis gleefully elminates.

Pre-Synthesis: People are separated by delimitation. In other words, what a person can or cannot do.
Post-Synthesis: People are separated by choice. In other words, what a person chooses to do or not do.

Let's toss in some pratical examples.

Pre-Synthesis: Joker doesn't run because Joker cannot run.
Post-Synthesis: Joker can run because he is able to and he chooses to.

And some more.

Pre-Synthesis: Synthetics are unable to fully embrace happiness or sadness.
Post-Synthesis: Synthetics can choose to fully embrace happiness or sadness.

And more.

Pre-Synthesis: Donovan Hock is unable to leave the grey box.
Post-Synthesis: Donovan Hock can choose to leave the grey box.

Again, Synthesis changes one, simple variable about the nature of the Universe. There is a certain tyranny to how things are now that invites a hierarchy of domination, those who can above those who can't, those who have over those who have not. Synthesis changes that variable to [/i][i]those who choose A, those who choose B, those who choose C and so on. It removes the hierarchy of domination.

Why is that important?

Every cycle has an apex race. Without Synthesis, every cycle will have an apex race. Someone has to be at the top.

Leviathans; Protheans; Asari, take your pick. It's acknowledged many times that whilst the asari rule with a smile, they still pull all the strings, they have the greatest technological advancements, the most potent biotic abilities, the longest lives, and the oldest culture. The asari are privileged by chance. The protheans took a shine to the asari and made them something of a pet project, improving them, making sure that they would dominate the next cycle. And they did exactly that, and this hierarchy of domination goes from the asari at the top, to the less fortunate and more oppressed species and races at the bottom.

Admittedly, yes, the asari domination is the kindest of the three we know of, but it is still the same. The asari pull the strings, and ultimately, it's what the asari choose that matters the most. They have the most clout.

Everyone wants to be in that seat.

If you pay close attention to Mass Effect 2, everyone wants to top the asari. Miranda was an attempt to create a "perfect" human, Jack was an attempt to create a "perfect" biotic, and most importantly, Grunt was created to be a "perfect" krogan. It's interesting that these examples come from races which are less privileged initially, like humanity and the krogan peoples. The lower on the rungs you are, the more desperate you become. This is where the threat of synthetics comes from, not from synthetics themselves, but from the organic desire to be the best that's imprinted upon them.

Organics on the lower rungs are more likely to create more dangerous things to give them an edge. I speculate that the quarians might have felt that they deserved a better position in life, which is why they created a slave race (the geth). The purpose of the geth was to make life better for the quarians, to move them up the rungs of galactic society, so that the quarians could show off their synthetic servants as a form of one-upmanship. I speculate that the reason the quarians reacted so negatively to the awakening of the geth is because they felt that the geth might also become better than them, leaving them in the dirt. (And they acted on that fear.)

So everyone is struggling to be the top, to be the best. It's the loveliness of natural selection at its finest and the tyranny of nature, because we're not all created in a way where we'd be capable of doing things that others are. And then things like sickness, flaws, defects, and so on damn people even further. The domination of hierarchy continues to support this in both reality and the Mass Effect Universe, with rich people getting access to the best that medical science has to offer before everyone else.

Synthesis empowers.

It provides an equal footing and removes the apex race by rewriting people in such a way that everyone has access to the boons of everyone else, so that everyone is capable. Illness is removed (we see this with EDI leaning against Joker, and Joker not grunting and doubling over), and people are upgraded so that there is a greater sense of equality. With equality comes familiarity, and it's hard to enforce a hierarchy when you see people as being capable of the same as you are. This, in turn, along with the galactic consensus ushers in a new age of empathetic understanding. For the first time, there aren't groups of people defined by circumstance, there are groups of people defined by choice.

This is further backed up by the notion that organics can then integrate technology into them. Kasumi integrates her boyfriend and he becomes real through her. It also means that people can effectively change themselves and become waht they want, there are no barriers between dream and reality. The next step here is the Singularity, but that's a topic for another time. Ultimately though, in a Synthesis future, the difference between you and I isn't that I may be less than you because of my illness, but that I choose differently than you.

Synthesis doesn't stop an architect from being an architect. It doesn't change their mind. It doesn't take away their ability. It just allows more people to be architects, if they so desire.

. That is why I find the end result of synthesis a worthwhile goal. I object however to its, explanation, implementation, and execution.

Also there's the whole Wreav is no longer who he once was. That's something that I can't get over.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

I think that's part of the symbolism of the ending, basically a Hegelian synthesis applied to defining characteristics of organic and synthetic life. I've mentioned that in my first Synthesis thread. Unfortunately, things don't always work well if taken from the symbolic to the real. A "hybrid DNA analogue" is just nonsense, and no amount of space magic can make it less so.

Mac and Casey were using symbolism with no grounding in the fictional world the story takes place in. That can wreck your story more completely than even the biggest plot holes. Most plot holes can be plugged, but if you transfer the symbolic 1:1 to the real and the result is nonsense, that can only be fixed with a rewrite.

The EC gave us some more "real" Synthesis, and that's good, but unfortunately it didn't dispense with the nonsense. So while the outcome is something I like, certainly my most favorite choice, parts of the exposition deserve all the ridicule they get.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 mars 2013 - 06:41 .

[ruggly]

Wayning_Star wrote...
The really big problem with 'imagining' the results of synthesis, is not experiencing it ourselves. Forcing it is exactly what we're doing, in any event. It's seems to boil down to just how fast we're willing to accept it's invocation. Would we rather such a thing slip up on organic/synthetic life forms, or just DO IT? Get it over with, etc.

Being is the theory of it relates to the basis of nature, that is our beginnings as organics, synthetic beginnings are rather short sighted. Synthetics 'become' in less than a few thousand years, but organic life forms took millions of years to evolve sentience, maybe longer? That balance thing again. Our existence and it's necessity of invention might be the mitigation of 'force' as we tailor the given reality around us during existence, it's a hang up with sentient life forms. Always fiddling with stuff...just don't know when to stop tool making to thwart natures apparen urge to 'end us'...lol

People are free to Nike it up on themselves, but I would ere on the side of caution when you try and say you have to do this for your own good, because of reasons x, y, and z.

And yes, part of the problem is that we don't have the ability to experience the majority of what synthesis provides ourselves.  There have been advances, like bionic arms and robotic eyes, but you also have to figure in if everyone will be able to afford this sort of thing once it becomes common.

Nothing wrong with trying to find out the meaning of our lives, but there's certainly more than one way of trying, other than sticking technology into our bodies.  And yes, nature has some scary **** out there, like the zombie ant fungus.  **** that noise.

But this is heading more into real world possibilities, and probably derailing the thread.

Modifié par ruggly, 31 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

You know choosing to have a disabled body part replaced by tech is a far (very far) cry from synthesis, synthesis changes people into another thing, it is a final evolution which going by what the catalyst says will stagnate and cause the extinction of all like in the galaxy.

[Bill Casey]

Discipline =/= balance...


Do I need to post the link again?


HarmonyVersusDiscipline

Discipline believes that Harmony is too focused on preserving and accepting, and is in fact defeatist by not trying to improve things, this is why Discipline tends to be active. On the flip side, Discipline can  end up tampering with things best left unmolested, can give its practitioners a God complex, and can lose sight of the now in favor of
tomorrow.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 mars 2013 - 07:30 .

[Eterna]

Synthesis is more than balance, it is pure advancement. It escalates every advanced organic and Synthetic to the apex of civilization, far beyond even the technologies of Reaper tech.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

BSN drinking game. Take a drink whenever Cosmos makes a thread about demonizing destroy and liking the other two endings.

[mass perfection]

Isn't Synthesis life rather than balance?

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

Flaw there, those are not the same. It's not Organics = Chaos and Synthetics = Order. Reapers themselves are organic-synthetic hybrids and they represent order. Organics represent Chaos. Synthetics represent Chaos. Reapers represent Order.

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Order

[Reorte]

You're probably right that there's supposed to be a whole bunch of symbolism, another reason that I despise the hideous mess.

[Spartas Husky]

...Synthetics represent Chaos, since when? I want to know where is it stated synthetic, artificially created entities are considered chaotic. Never heard the reapers say anything but organic. squishy people.

[spirosz]

dreamgazer wrote...

Is this "chaos" bad?

Is this "order" good?

Is this the "correct" way to balance the universe?

But yes, it's pretty obvious that it's the dichotomy the Catalyst wants you to take away from the conversation.

[spirosz]

What might seem as balance from the time the Catalyst was created, might not be the "right" balance for the present universe.

[Spartas Husky]

spirosz wrote...

What might seem as balance from the time the Catalyst was created, might not be the "right" balance for the present universe.

We could take a lesson from that into real life... whoever thought things dont remain the same.

[MegaSovereign]

How do synthetics represent order?

We've seen civil wars happen within the synthetic domain. Legion was baffled by the idea that the Heretics were trying to deceive the main Geth by developing a virus that would change their conclusions over time.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Destroy = Reapers Dead.

How is there chaos when the mass genocide cycle has come to and end?

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 31 mars 2013 - 10:29 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

My soup is too hot. I'll answer. Clean slate, not having read anyone else. The devil is in the details. I wish it was balance.

1) I did not like having to destroy the geth on a play through where I made peace to destroy the reapers. I wanted it clean. I did not want that cycle starting again. I wanted freedom of choice. This ending was good for organics, bad for synthetics.

2) I did not like control. I was a renegon, but I wasn't a monster. I didn't trust myself with that kind of power. I knew it wouldn't end well. This ending was status quo for organics if they behaved themselves, and status quo for the synthetics if they behaved themselves.

3) It was the way Mac wrote Synthesis. It just didn't make any sense to me. And the way the kid explained it didn't make any sense. I mean if you were standing there having to make a decision that would affect the entire galaxy based upon two or three sentences I really don't think you'd make that kind of leap of faith either. When I saw the husks become aware on Youtube, I was left wondering if they gained back the "who I was" and saw were horrified at what they became, and there were billions of them now. And if people (part synthetics) didn't really change as some have suggested, but just had these superficial dna changes made to them, these husks would be a permanent underclass shunned by the part synthetics. But EDI is alive and not alone, as are the Geth. It doesn't sound like a particularly happy ending.

I saw the ending as wonderful for synthetics, but not so wonderful for organics, and particularly bad for the reaper husks. The Catalyst does not go away and is part organic. It still controls the Reapers. It did not say that it released the Reapers from its control.

Consequently in subsequent plays, I simply let the Quarians finish off the Geth to take me out of Walter's ending box on the 360. A little metagaming, but I'm okay with that.

Bottom line we have Mac, Casey, and EA to blame for the whole ending. Honestly, I disliked all the choices equally. I would have preferred a more "videogamey" ending to that, you know the one we were supposed to have originally. But since that never happened, it is why I choose MEHEM for the ending. Dead reapers. None of our allies have to die.

So there you have it. No name calling. No put downs. No hate.

[Auintus]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Destroy = Reapers Dead.

How is there chaos when the mass genocide cycle has come to and end?

Because a cycle is reliable. Chaos isn't about good or bad. It is unpredictability. When the cycle occured, the galaxy was predictable. Most races would advance along the same technological paths and in 50k years, the Reapers would wipe it out. Without the cycle, anything could happen, for better or for worse.

Hell, in a few thousand years, someone might create a new Catalyst and start the harvest cycle over again. Imagine that, circles within circles.

[robertthebard]

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis is more than balance, it is pure advancement. It escalates every advanced organic and Synthetic to the apex of civilization, far beyond even the technologies of Reaper tech.

When did the Synth beam get a targeting laser?  It doesn't target all advanced life, it targets all life, including microbes swimming in their primordial ooze.  You have, effectively, denied life on planets that had nothing to do with the war their right to evolve naturally.  Congratulations?

Modifié par robertthebard, 01 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[DiebytheSword]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

That is very absolute only from one point of view.  I see Synthesis as order imposed on chaos, this order cannot be perfect because it is dictated by a machine created by chaos.  The Leviathans were imposing thier viewpoint on all of what they percieved to be incompatable with their order.

I'm under the impression that intellegence was granted free will for a reason by their creators in the case of organics.  That free will in synthesis is now very much in question.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Auintus wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Destroy = Reapers Dead.

How is there chaos when the mass genocide cycle has come to and end?

Because a cycle is reliable. Chaos isn't about good or bad. It is unpredictability. When the cycle occured, the galaxy was predictable. Most races would advance along the same technological paths and in 50k years, the Reapers would wipe it out. Without the cycle, anything could happen, for better or for worse.

Hell, in a few thousand years, someone might create a new Catalyst and start the harvest cycle over again. Imagine that, circles within circles.

Chaos is usually bad thing.  Chaos means no order.  Order has rules to keep ppl safe.  Those orders would still be intact after Destroy.  The only thing that would change would be the absence of the chaos that the reapers bring. 

Plus....the cycle ends in all of the endings....so it's sorta moot to say only one is chaos.

[KingZayd]

They impose order onto chaos, by huskifying chaotic organics. It is known.

[Vigilant111]

I love how people trivialize life into only a few categories: "order", "chaos" and "balanced"...these words are so tacky they are cringing for their own embarrassment