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[Reap_ii]

the catalyst and the reapers are what is putting the galaxy out of balance. destroy is the only thing that restores natural balance.

[robertthebard]

Reap_ii wrote...

the catalyst and the reapers are what is putting the galaxy out of balance. destroy is the only thing that restores natural balance.

Here's a funny coincidence, it also restores the Natural Order.

[Auld Wulf]

Funny thing about this is that the Leviathans continue to exist without the Reapers. The guys who built the Catalyst and still want to control the galaxy. That's more than a little worrying to me.

Wouldn't you rather than the Reapers around as friends as a contingency against the Leviathans turning up and mind-controlling everyone? Destroy could represent chaos because it could lead to another war. The Leviathan creatures are scared of the Reapers, but likely not so much human, krogan, asari, salarian, turian, or so on.

[Vigilant111]

robertthebard wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

the catalyst and the reapers are what is putting the galaxy out of balance. destroy is the only thing that restores natural balance.

Here's a funny coincidence, it also restores the Natural Order.

No, natural order is that galactic communities self manage own affairs or risk own imminent destruction. In the Catalyst's perspective, natural order is the gradual path towards its precious synthesis

What the Catalyst and reapers were doing is to ensure the flow of "tribute", there were some ulterior motive in play. Without this motive, they are essentially taking their pants off to fart

[Wulfram]

Synthesis is mostly nonsense. Though it's kind of interesting what people project on the nonsense - I find it instinctively abhorrent, though rationally I don't think there's the information for me to make that judgement.

Destroy vs Control as Order vs Chaos should work, though it's screwed up in the actual game. Firstly because of how Control is portrayed before the final choice, and even more because of the whole killing the Geth thing, which is extraneous to the symbolism but is too big a deal to be ignored when making your choice.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 avril 2013 - 01:37 .

[robertthebard]

Vigilant111 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

the catalyst and the reapers are what is putting the galaxy out of balance. destroy is the only thing that restores natural balance.

Here's a funny coincidence, it also restores the Natural Order.

No, natural order is that galactic communities self manage own affairs or risk own imminent destruction. In the Catalyst's perspective, natural order is the gradual path towards its precious synthesis

What the Catalyst and reapers were doing is to ensure the flow of "tribute", there were some ulterior motive in play. Without this motive, they are essentially taking their pants off to fart

The Natural Order is indeed that individual species self determinate.  With Control, we take that away, because societies will develop in the way that ShepAI determines; so if somebody does something that they feel is right, but ShepAI disagrees with, ShepAI will stop them, this is not self determination.

Synthesis is determining that everybody, and everything is now the same.  Where's the self determination in that?  It was determined, by Shepard, that everyone be the same.

The only ending that restores the Natural Order:  That life evolves from whatever source, and then evolves to whatever pinnacle of evolution it's supposed to evolve to is Destroy, because it takes the Reapers completely out of the picture.  Believe it or not, Humanity has reached it's current pinnacle of evolution without the Reapers telling us which way we should go.  This is the Natural Order.   http://naturalorder.info/index.html  Nowhere is there a need for an AI to either alter our genetic structure, or tell us "You can't evolve that way".

[knightnblu]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shortly after finishing ME3, I concluded that the endings could basically interpreted like this:

Destroy = Chaos
Control = Order
Synthesis = Balance

In fact, the Reaper on Rannoch declares that they represent order and organics represent chaos. It can't be anymore clear than that. I suppose, then, that Synthesis can be interpreted as some kind of balance between order and chaos, synthetic and organic.

This was my interpretation before I got on the Internet and experienced people's visceral hatred of Synthesis. At that point, arguing that Synthesis represented any kind of balance seemed pointless.

 
I would argue the following:
 
Destroy = Life
Control = Uncertainty
Synthesis = Abomination
 
If one were to view these choices in a pure moral vacuum then Synthesis could equal balance of the machine and the organism. The Control choice is marginally better, in that there is no guarantee that Shepard will retain his sanity over the millennia. He is locked in with an insane AI. Will the insane AI eventually convince Shepard to turn on the galaxy? What about in 10 million years? Who knows.
 
Additionally, both of these choices deny justice to the uncounted numbers of victims over tens of millions of years and the victims of the current cycle. Worse, Synthesis adds insult to injury by forcing you into the shape of your tormentor. Not only do you have to accept the fact that somebody altered you without even so much as a by your leave, but forced you into the very form of the beings that murdered your family, destroyed your home, and butchered countless trillions. It would be like taking the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust and forcing them to be SS in order to achieve peace. Sugarcoat it if you like, but that is the truth. The fact that BioWare provides you with a Utopia for choosing both Control and Synthesis does a disservice to reason. That leaves Destroy as the final choice.
 
Destroy works as the best option of the three because it grants justice to the victims, it denies the self aggrandizement of a Shepard who would play God, and it doesn't rape the essence of life. Further the Destroy option insures that never again will the Reapers be able to terrorize the galaxy. It is an end that permanently incapacitates the enemy. In Control you don't have that guarantee and Synthesis cannot provide it either, unless direct control of the Catalyst has been established via the fusion process.
 
Those are my thoughts.

[CosmicGnosis]

This is one of my old threads, but I think it should be resurrected. I'd like to see more discussion about my earliest interpretation of the endings. I'm still not convinced that it's wrong.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[jamesp81]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This is one of my old threads, but I think it should be resurrected. I'd like to see more discussion about my earliest interpretation of the endings. I'm still not convinced that it's wrong.

I agree with you somewhat, but not entirely.  I think that Synthesis and Control are effectively the same...they both destroy individuality and personal liberty.  The difference is in whether the tyrant is a Shepalyst AI or a collective hive mind.  Morally it makes no difference, it's just details.

I think you can find good and bad aspects with every ending.

Synthesis: supposedly the best ending.  Creates balance and understanding between organics and synthetics.  The downside is that it wrecks individuality.  It basically unmakes humanity and takes away that which makes us ourselves.  It might as well be death, just without mountains of bodies.

Control: The most powerful force in the galaxy is now under the control of a human, securing humanity's power.  The downside is that putting that much power into the hands of one person is obviously insane and just begging for tyrannical abuse.

Destroy: Liberates organics from Reaper tyranny and allows them to achieve their destiny on their own.  Downside is that it's the same old chaotic world we know.

Personally, I think picking anything other than Destroy is insane.

[wright1978]

Disagree that Synthesis equals balance. I'd more say uniformity fits.

[CosmicGnosis]

jamesp81 wrote...

Synthesis: supposedly the best ending.  Creates balance and understanding between organics and synthetics.  The downside is that it wrecks individuality.  It basically unmakes humanity and takes away that which makes us ourselves.  It might as well be death, just without mountains of bodies.

Your statement reminds me of something that Ieldra addressed in his Synthesis thread:

However, there can be no doubt that in any ascension worth the term, something will be lost. That's the truth expressed by the quote at the top of this post. Also, while the ending of Mass Effect 3 ultimately subverts the cosmic horror story, changing the Reapers from horrors from the beyond to super-powerful and super-intelligent, but mundane antagonists, the prospect of embracing the unknown by letting the Reapers become part of civilization, as happens after Synthesis, is a frightening prospect, even if you know what they are. Their presentation as Lovecraftian horrors made sure of that. Ultimately, whether you see the promise of ascension or fear losing a part of yourself from it will determine your attitude to the Synthesis: 

(A) If you embrace Lovecraftian cosmicism as the theme defining the Reapers, reject the subversion of the cosmic horror story in ME3's ending and believe that what will be lost by the ascension effected by the Synthesis is not worth the gain, that we will not become more-than-human, but inhuman, less-than-human if we embrace this, then you will reject Synthesis.
( If you reject Lovecraftian cosmicism as the theme defining the Reapers, accept the subversion of the cosmic horror story in by ME3's ending and believe that what is gained by the ascension effected by the Synthesis is ultimately worth the cost, that we will become more-than-human, then you will be attracted by Synthesis.[/list]

[Cainhurst Crow]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

But what does that entail?

I belive that entails that destroy is a chaotic anarchic path with the most freedom, control is a rigid and ordered path with the least freedom, and synthesis is the middle ground of freedom and security, but is also giving up portions of both equally.

None are really better than the other because each asks for upholding of an ideal at the cost of the others. It's up to you, the player or your shepard, what ideal they would uphold the most.

There isn't a "this option is the best everyone else is a retard" type ending, which this fanbase seems desperatly to want.

*sighs* So nostalgic, to see my posts full of passion for a bioware product. How things have changed.

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis = Rape

You can end the war by setting off a big bomb, brainwashing the enemy, or raping everyone...

Good times...good times....he never did stick his dick in it and make up like I told him to.

[CosmicGnosis]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

But what does that entail?

I belive that entails that destroy is a chaotic anarchic path with the most freedom, control is a rigid and ordered path with the least freedom, and synthesis is the middle ground of freedom and security, but is also giving up portions of both equally.

None are really better than the other because each asks for upholding of an ideal at the cost of the others. It's up to you, the player or your shepard, what ideal they would uphold the most.

There isn't a "this option is the best everyone else is a retard" type ending, which this fanbase seems desperatly to want.

*sighs* So nostalgic, to see my posts full of passion for a bioware product. How things have changed.

Well, I liked your old post. Perhaps you should try to summon that passion again?

[David7204]

I'm not reading through this whole thread. No, they can't be that simple, because that's stupid.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not reading through this whole thread. No, they can't be that simple, because that's stupid.

How succinct and respectful of you, professor. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not reading through this whole thread. No, they can't be that simple, because that's stupid.

No U.

[Br3admax]

Destroy=Logos, what does my sense of logic want me to do(in my opinion best)?
Control=Ethos, what do my ethics want me to do?
Synthesis=Pathos, what does my empathy tell me to do?

[CosmicGnosis]

Br3ad wrote...

Destroy=Logos, what does my sense of logic want me to do(in my opinion best)?
Control=Ethos, what do my ethics want me to do?
Synthesis=Pathos, what does my empathy tell me to do?

Some people think the Reapers must be destroyed because of "justice" and "revenge". That's not Logos. I think Logos could be attached to Control because you want to preserve the galactic infrastructure, which is good for everybody. Destroy breaks the infrastructure and implies a sense of "damn the consequences".

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 19 décembre 2013 - 11:29 .

[CosmicGnosis]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not reading through this whole thread. No, they can't be that simple, because that's stupid.

Then enlighten me, David. What do you think it all means?

[ImaginaryMatter]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm not reading through this whole thread. No, they can't be that simple, because that's stupid.

Then enlighten me, David. What do you think it all means?

None of us are worthy of David's enlighten, that brightness, that dazzling magnificence will surely burn us. Only David is strong enough to contain that radiant opulence.

[Michotic]

I don't think it can be broken down so simply. Ultimately, Destroy and Synthesis don't really change anything. People are still people. I'm not sure how suddenly everything being an organic/synthetic hybrid suddenly brings peace to the galaxy. Synthesis does nothing to stop conflict.

Synthesis seems to give everyone green eyes. The only race that would benefit from this is synthetics, because now organics have less of a reason to kill them, because they aren't so 'different' anymore. Are the Batarians and Krogan suddenly peaceful? Even if they aren't hostile, they are still much more aggressive than the Asari (on the whole). I don't see many people just deciding to end all conflict forever because everyone has the same color eyes.

I can see the argument for Destroy = Chaos, but that's what life is. It's Chaotic. We don't know what the next hour will bring. We make our own paths, and we face the consequences of our decisions. We have the freedom to make our own choices.

Control = Order in so much as you now have a supremely powerful galactic armada 'keeping the peace.' The Reapers are still there. It's a forced order. Mind your manners are get extinct. If we assume the Shep-lyst lets all life self determinate, that's no different from Chaos.

[KaiserShep]

Michotic wrote...

Control = Order in so much as you now have a supremely powerful galactic armada 'keeping the peace.' The Reapers are still there. It's a forced order. Mind your manners are get extinct. If we assume the Shep-lyst lets all life self determinate, that's no different from Chaos.

Even in Paragon control, the implications aren't very good. How does the reaper fleet give a voice to the disenfranchised without coming off as a fearsome galactic daddy that everyone knows can keep its cosmic pimp hand strong at a moment's notice?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 To me...

Destroy = romanticism.
Control = compromise.
Synthesis = progressivism.
Refuse = incompetance.

[Michotic]

KaiserShep wrote...

Michotic wrote...

Control = Order in so much as you now have a supremely powerful galactic armada 'keeping the peace.' The Reapers are still there. It's a forced order. Mind your manners are get extinct. If we assume the Shep-lyst lets all life self determinate, that's no different from Chaos.

Even in Paragon control, the implications aren't very good. How does the reaper fleet give a voice to the disenfranchised without coming off as a fearsome galactic daddy that everyone knows can keep its cosmic pimp hand strong at a moment's notice?

That's a big reason why I don't like it. If Shepard took control of the Reapers and flew them into a star, I'd be ok with that. A form of Destroy that doesn't wipe out synthetic life, but it does require Shepard's sacrifice.

Also, BioWare has already set a precedent of it being a terrible idea for an individual to become what Shepard becomes (or helps create, since he 'died). I just can't justify it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 To me...

Destroy = romanticism.
Control = compromise.
Synthesis = progressivism.
Refuse = incompetance.

Hmm, interesting. I think I see where you're coming from for the colored choices but how do you see Refusal as 'incompetance'? Personally I always saw it as idealistic.