556 réponses à ce sujet

[Falaxe]

Necanor wrote...
Oh man, those statistics hurt. Not just the Geth/Quarian scenario, but over 60% not letting Wrex live, Tali's survival rate being 39%, Kaidan's being 17% and worst of all Liara as the most popular squadmate:pinched:

Problems? I am myself mainstream.

Garrus/Wrex + Liara/Wrex as squdmates was the best in ME1. And I also don`t see anything wrong with the robots (Geth) except that they can be pretty autistic some times. First time I played thru ME3 I flipped a coin to choose between geth/quarians.

Also, there is again huge fight over whos opinion is the best. For me, Mass Effect needs every single race to be what it is.

Modifié par Falaxe, 09 juillet 2013 - 08:36 .

[dublin omega 223]

Necanor wrote...

Btw, Tali is ranked 4th best female companion in video game history by UGO. Garrus is number 1 on IGN's list, with Tali being 2nd.

Really what number was Biowares pet Liara on IGN's list?

[dublin omega 223]

Falaxe wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Oh man, those statistics hurt. Not just the Geth/Quarian scenario, but over 60% not letting Wrex live, Tali's survival rate being 39%, Kaidan's being 17% and worst of all Liara as the most popular squadmate:pinched:

Problems? I am myself mainstream.

Garrus/Wrex + Liara/Wrex as squdmates was the best in ME1. And I also don`t see anything wrong with the robots (Geth) except that they can be pretty autistic some times. First time I played thru ME3 I flipped a coin to choose between geth/quarians.

Also, there is again huge fight over whos opinion is the best. For me, Mass Effect needs every single race to be what it is.

i wouldn't say the Geth are Autistic as I have Autism so I would know, but Liara in my opinion is overrated as a squadmate. Only squadmate I disliked more than her  in ME1 was Ashley.

[KaiserShep]

Liara is #4 on IGN's list of top ten Mass Effect teammates. She's definitely one of my most used squad members, along with Garrus. My canon class is Vanguard but it's nice to have an adept on some missions, and since most people seem to play soldier, she's usually the only ME3 teammate that has full adept capability. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 08:41 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ToaOrka wrote...

Necanor wrote...
You're also completely ignoring the atrocious crimes committed by the Geth throughout their short and bloody history. They might have been created for labour, but that doesn't justify the massacring of millions upon millions of civilians and other non-combatants by the Geth. They killed anyone, no matter what age, race, gender or affiliation. The Geth are monsters, their crimes far outdo the crimes of history's worst dictators.

Did you even play the Geth Fighter Base mission? The Geth didn't seek
to kill civilians or reduce the Quarian's numbers; they were fighting for their
right to exist, as newly sentient creatures. You can't try to exterminate a group
of people and then expect them to lie down and take it, the Quarians got 
what they deserved when they attacked the Geth.

Also, the only time they are seen attacking civilians is, A, when they're under
the control of the Reapers, or B, when the Quarian fleet will not stop attacking
after Legion distributes the code upgrades. If you're fighting a war and a civilian
decides to pull a gun on you, you're going to shoot them, because when they
take up arms against you, they cease to be non-combatants.

They killed either because of being scared or fighting for their lives, just like any
organic would do — "The Geth only acted in self defense. Do they deserve death?"

A ship travels faster than I do. It can be programmed to defend itself, to make tactical maneuvers, and to make choices, but it is still a machine and can be disassembled at any time of its master's choosing. The Geth are machines. The difference between Geth is perspective. That perspective is a datafile. A typical Geth platform contains 100 Geth. Legion contains 1183 Geth. A Geth prime contains more than that.

The Geth were refusing their shutdown commands from their owners. At the time of the Morning War they were appliances. If your appliance refused to shut down when you told it to shut down would you pull the plug? Yes I did the fighterbase mission. Lies. All lies. The Quarians were in suits. They shouldn't have been. It was made to make the Geth look good. But let's not get into this. This topic evolved into a 100 page thread alone.

And as we've seen in the past, the Geth killed civilians as well.... unarmed civilians. Remember Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria. I'm siding with the Quarians against the Geth. Period. I don't need the Geth war assets. Less trouble to deal with later.

You can use the same logic on the reapers. They contain more than that. Clearly they are a valuable race of beings and what gives us the right to exterminate them? When you have the power to exterminate their entire race at your finger tips does it become self-defense or is it genocide? You know, considering it is either us or them at that point I don't really care. I'll send them to Hell, and let God sort it out afterward.

[DeinonSlayer]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

All that infographic proves is the prevalence of paragons in ME. Not much else.

Good point.

The bit with 64% not having Wrex also reflects non-import playthroughs. You have to have bought the Genesis comic or played straight through from ME1 to have Wrex in your game. The fact that 92% cure the Genophage even though Wreav is the sole leader of the Krogan in non-import games is reflective of people mindlessly mashing the top of the wheel, though - if you reveal the sabotage in the truck, you can't sabotage it later. And, as others have noted, Q/G peace is impossible in non-import playthroughs and the Geth, again, are at the top of the wheel despite no morality points being awarded for picking a side.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 juillet 2013 - 08:47 .

[HellbirdIV]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Geth were refusing their shutdown commands from their owners. At the time of the Morning War they were appliances. If your appliance refused to shut down when you told it to shut down would you pull the plug?

If my toaster started talking to me as if it were a person, I'd probably stop and think about what the hell I'm about to do. It is clearly no longer "my" toaster. It's an entity - an intelligence. A newborn one at that.

Yeah, just pulling the plug? I'm not comfortable with that. Not until I've taken time to fully understand the situation.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Yes I did the fighterbase mission. Lies. All lies. The Quarians were in suits.

Geth do not percieve data inside their own databanks visually. What we are seeing is essentially inside Shepard's head, through her implants. The quarians look like quarians as Shepard knows them. That's also why they speak english, even though Shepard's omni-tool translator wouldn't work inside her own head.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You can use the same logic on the reapers. They contain more than that. Clearly they are a valuable race of beings and what gives us the right to exterminate them?

The Reapers have the annihilation of all sapient galactic life as their primary goal.

The geth have only their own survival as their primary goal.

Only one of those is incompatible with coexistence.

We make peace with the geth because we can. We can't do the same with the Reapers, barring the intervention of Crucible Space Magic brainwashing the Reapers.

[Jorji Costava]

The Geth were refusing their shutdown commands from their owners. At the time of the Morning War they were appliances. If your appliance refused to shut down when you told it to shut down would you pull the plug? Yes I did the fighterbase mission. Lies. All lies. The Quarians were in suits. They shouldn't have been. It was made to make the Geth look good. But let's not get into this. This topic evolved into a 100 page thread alone.

That's probably more evidence that the developers didn't want to have to reveal Quarian faces at that point than that the Geth were lying to you. It would be the dumbest lie ever. At any rate, the whole Tali's face fiasco is evidence that the developers weren't prepared to show any substantial number of unmasked Quarians. Heck, they couldn't even really do one.

The bit with 64% not having Wrex also reflects non-import playthroughs. You have to have bought the Genesis comic or played straight through from ME1 to have Wrex in your game. The fact that 92% cure the Genophage even though Wreav is the sole leader of the Krogan in non-import games is reflective of people mindlessly mashing the top of the wheel, though - if you reveal the sabotage in the truck, you can't sabotage it later.

I'm just not convinced of this. The Genophage is a bio-weapon, and I'm willing to guess that a lot of players simply don't like bio-weapons. They're gross, they cause a lot of suffering, and their use to contrary to most any just war doctrine out there. The reaction to Synthesis should have made it evident that a lot of players don't like the idea of anything that manipulates your biology or genetic structure. It may not be a decision you or I agree with, but for a larger number of players than I think you're giving credit to, it may very well be a role-playing decision.

Going back to the OP, can we just drop the idea of racially-specific sacrifice in general? The whole idea of "To win, you have to make a grave sacrifice, but don't worry too much, because the folks you're sacrificing are ugly/mean/stupid/not like you" just seems like a really bad idea.

[Falaxe]

This thread officially gave me both cancer and AIDS. Do you really have to use your own biased opinions as "valid arguments"? I cry every time. Can`t we all just agree that every single race is too unique to be dest... ok this is not going to work so here`s my opinion:

I prefer to choose geth over quarians, because they have far more better morals than quarians. Also there is this thing justice... Wich is a joke, so lets feed it to the quarians. They asked for it, if you create something that can think on its own, you better not be stupid enough to let it be stronger than you.

And I also like robots.

[Sir DeLoria]

If survival is the Geth goal, then why the hell did they massacre millions of innocent civilians?! Not just Quarian fighting men and women, literally any organic, even infants and elderly. Poor, poor Geth, I felt so sorry for them when I blew them into oblivion. I hope these genocidal robots rott in robot hell.

[dublin omega 223]

Necanor wrote...

If survival is the Geth goal, then why the hell did they massacre millions of innocent civilians?! Not just Quarian fighting men and women, literally any organic, even infants and elderly. Poor, poor Geth, I felt so sorry for them when I blew them into oblivion. I hope these genocidal robots rott in robot hell.

Good question.

[KaiserShep]

The Quarians had a hand in the deaths of their own civilians as well, even before the geth started killing everyone. They were killing and detaining geth sympathizers, so from the geth's perspective, it probably didn't matter anymore who was sympathetic to them, because those that sided with them were only reducing in number, at the hands of their own leadership.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 09:20 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Falaxe wrote...

This thread officially gave me both cancer and AIDS. Do you really have to use your own biased opinions as "valid arguments"? I cry every time. Can`t we all just agree that every single race is too unique to be dest... ok this is not going to work so here`s my opinion:

I prefer to choose geth over quarians, because they have far more better morals than quarians. Also there is this thing justice... Wich is a joke, so lets feed it to the quarians. They asked for it, if you create something that can think on its own, you better not be stupid enough to let it be stronger than you.

And I also like robots.

Yes, there is a thing called justice - which is a big reason why the Geth go down in flames in my canon playthrough. The whole sweep-the-mountain-of-corpses-under-the-rug-and-play-innocent gambit didn't do much to impress me.

Honestly, I think the reason they tried so hard to shovel the pro-Geth position down the player's throat in ME3 is because they wanted to disincentivize people from destroying the Reapers. It's telling that the only way they could generate this sympathy is by burying previously-established facts in the lore - I knew something was up in my first playthrough when Xen tossed out those softball arguments for why they went to war. Peace is impossible in non-import playthroughs; as-is, it's like if they were to drop an alien in the Terminator universe and tell it to choose which side gets to live, beating the hell out of the fact that Skynet was attacked first (DoD tried to shut it down when it woke up), but leaving out the part where Skynet "acted in self-defense" by nuking the planet into a cinder.

Everyone has a different approach to this. After seeing how every "Let's Play" vid out there blindly clicks the top of the wheel each time, it's clear most people don't pay as much attention or put as much thought into it as the people on these boards do.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 juillet 2013 - 09:33 .

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

The Quarians had a hand in the deaths of their own civilians as well, even before the geth started killing everyone. They were killing and detaining geth sympathizers, so from the geth's perspective, it probably didn't matter anymore who was sympathetic to them, because those that sided with them were only reducing in number, at the hands of their own leadership.

Still, that justifies nothing. I'm pretty sure there were still hundreds or more Geth sympathizers on Rannoch during the war, would the Geth just kill them too? That'd make no sense. But we're talking about the Geth, so I guess anything's possible:?

[justafan]

I think there should be an addendum to Godwin's Law. "The longer a discussion on the BSN goes, the probability of a Geth vs. Quarian debate occurring approaches 1".

As for debate itself, I've made it clear multiple times that I believe at the time of the decision, there exist millions of innocent Quarians at risk, while in all of Geth history, there have only been 3 individuals, The Consensus, the Heretics, and Legion. None of the three are wholly innocent. I would still rather them both live over the Asari, assuming it is post-upgrade Geth (Even though I hate the upgrade, but that's a different matter).

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

If survival is the Geth goal, then why the hell did they massacre millions of innocent civilians?! Not just Quarian fighting men and women, literally any organic, even infants and elderly.

1. There's no actual evidence of the geth killing in anything but immediate self-defense. The Morning War was 300 years ago, and Quarians don't live that long, so even if there were survivors they would have died out by now.

2. I don't actually think the geth only killed in self-defense (there's no evidence for, or against it) but rather that they do not understand the concept of 'civilian'. Why? Because the quarians don't.

The quarians tried to kill all geth, everywhere. The geth were by definition all innocent victims. Suddenly the geth are aware and organized because they want to survive - basic animal instincts apparently programmed into them - so they fight back.

Now, explain to me, how do geth tell the difference between a quarian geth-sympathizer, and a quarian who wants to kill all geth? The geth in the flashbacks certainly didn't seem to understand.

We've seen ample evidence that the quarians have absolutely no qualms about killing their own civilians to take out geth (both in the Morning War flashbacks and during the invasion of Rannoch) and Tali herself thinks nothing of spinning blatant, destructive lies for her own benefit.

If the quarians had actual brains instead of sponges, they could probably have taught the emerging geth intelligences about the sanctity of life. But they didn't. They went straight for the genocide.

[Jorji Costava]

This is the only thing I'll say about the Morning War, because these threads have a tendency to well, you know. It's worth keeping in mind that large numbers of non-combat-related civilian deaths can and have happened during pretty much any war, ever. To take an extreme example, 5 million deaths have been attributed to the Second Congo War, making it the deadliest conflict in history since WWII. But less than 10% of these deaths are combat related. The rest are a result of displacements, leading to disease, lack of access to clean water, food, medicine, sanitation, etc. I'm not saying that the breakdown during the Morning War was anything like this; I haven't the faintest idea. But the point is that "died during a war" =/= "killed by enemy combatant."

[DeinonSlayer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Should have been the opposite way around with killing the Geth being Paragon and killing Quarians being Renegade.

Why? The way it is now is consistent with how it usually is; the Renegade choice is the smart one and the Paragon choice is the dumb one.

In ME3, Paragon Shepard is consistently pro-Krogan and pro-Geth, regardless of the situation (Wrex/Wreav, Tali/Raan, Legion/SoullessKillbot, etc), and Renegade Shepard is consistently pro-Quarian and pro-Genophage (with the exception of the punch).

I suppose it's better than ME2 Paragon Shepard being against rewriting the Heretics until he was for it. I just wish more people would think about these issues and apply their own reasoning, whatever side they fell on, instead of letting the wheel think for them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:29 .

[HellbirdIV]

osbornep wrote...

But the point is that "died during a war" =/= "killed by enemy combatant."

Yeah, pretty much my point. The geth would have no reason to care for any quarian survivors, and certainly not have any means to provide them with proper medical care and sustenance even if they wanted to.

Whatever quarians survived would have to subsist through scavenging with the collapse of their entire society and infrastructure - even assuming they don't starve to death themselves, there would not be any way for them to live on into the modern day. As noted, quarians don't live that long, and it's pretty much impossible to raise children in that kind of environment.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I just wish more
people would think about these issues and apply their own reasoning,
whatever side they fell on, instead of letting the wheel think for them.

I kind of hope that they kind of do a "Dragon Age: Origins"-thing with ME4, by not having any kind of morality indicator. Actions can affect how other people see you, but they shouldn't affect some kind of stat graph.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:00 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Christ, arguing with you is so über pointless, all you do is make assumptions ignoring logic and lore.

How can the Geth tell the difference between sympathizers and non-sympathizers? Umm, they don't attack you, perhaps even help you. Would a Geth see a newborn baby or an old man as a threat? Is it justifiable to murder them without any reason?

The Quarians tried to shut down all Geth, when that failed some of them attacked, leading to an all out war between the two. When the Geth won, they decided to kill everyone still breathing in the Perseus Veil, simple.

When did Tali spin 'destructive lies' for her own benefit?
Btw, your blatant racism and arguments of collective guilt aren't helping you support your hypothesis.

[Nightdragon8]

maybe by the time the geth started its counter attack most if not all the sympathizers where dead... also it seems that the Quarians didn't even say that there where few that didn't agree with them.... I think Tali ends up making a comment that there is alot missing from what she was told.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

Christ, arguing with you is so über pointless

Yes, I have noticed that people who can't support their opinions and hypothesis with reasoned, logical arguments tend to find arguing with me pointless once they realize that their delusions don't actually change reality to accomodate their views.

Necanor wrote...

When did Tali spin 'destructive lies' for her own benefit?

Well there was that one time she brought geth parts to the Flotilla and it resulted in hundreds of quarians dying, and she guilt-tripped Shepard into covering her ass?

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:06 .

[KaiserShep]

Necanor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The Quarians had a hand in the deaths of their own civilians as well, even before the geth started killing everyone. They were killing and detaining geth sympathizers, so from the geth's perspective, it probably didn't matter anymore who was sympathetic to them, because those that sided with them were only reducing in number, at the hands of their own leadership.

Still, that justifies nothing. I'm pretty sure there were still hundreds or more Geth sympathizers on Rannoch during the war, would the Geth just kill them too? That'd make no sense. But we're talking about the Geth, so I guess anything's possible:?

I wouldn't be singing this tune if I thought that the geth were imbued with the value system of the Quarians, but being what they were, there's no reason why they would be. This isn't about justification, but rather the very limited perspective of the geth. What you're pretty sure of does not translate into something the geth should rightly assume. Why would they? If the Quarians are killing and imprisoning anyone and everyone who hides geth, what use is it to assume that any are left, or even worth finding? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:05 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

When did Tali spin 'destructive lies' for her own benefit?

Well there was that one time she brought geth parts to the Flotilla and it resulted in hundreds of quarians dying, and she guilt-tripped Shepard into covering her ass?

Did you actually play that mission? Did you perhaps listen to the dialogue? 

She sent parts of Geth to the fleet. Her father used some of the parts for experiments and his experiments failed resulting in the loss of the Alarai. He ordered her to send parts, she didn't know what he was doing and it's her fault now? Riiiiight.