556 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

If Tali didn't send parts unaware of the experiments, someone else would've anyway. She was not responsible for what happened on that ship. She was being used.

[Falaxe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...


I suppose it's better than ME2 Paragon Shepard being against rewriting the Heretics until he was for it. I just wish more people would think about these issues and apply their own reasoning, whatever side they fell on, instead of letting the wheel think for them.

I really did flip a coin during my 1st play thru (and flipped out myself too). Both sides are equal (if you let the geth to upload reaper code), both did wrong and yet still both deserve to live.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

He ordered her to send parts, she didn't know what he was doing and it's her fault now?

Well, yeah, it kind of is - even though that wasn't my argument - she tried to cover it up because it would have made her father and herself look bad. - but yes, Tali really should have known better than to send dangerous technology back to the Flotilla without seeing it for herself.

It seems to be a running trend with the quarians, they hate thinking about stuff before they do it.

Falaxe wrote...

both did wrong and yet still both
deserve to live.

This, more or less, is why my choice came down to the one that saved more "people" (effective consciousnesses). Ergo, the geth. It's a good moral choice, I think.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:10 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...
He ordered her to send parts, she didn't know what he was doing and it's her fault now?

Well, yeah, it kind of is - even though that wasn't my argument - she tried to cover it up because it would have made her father and herself look bad. - but yes, Tali really should have known better than to send dangerous technology back to the Flotilla without seeing it for herself.

It seems to be a running trend with the quarians, they hate thinking about stuff before they do it.

Tali took every precaution possible, she passed up great finds because they might have been dangerous. I call that thinking. 

How is not knowing her fault? You have the most disturbed sense of justice I've ever seen<_<

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Falaxe wrote...

both did wrong and yet still both
deserve to live.

This, more or less, is why my choice came down to the one that saved more "people" (effective consciousnesses). Ergo, the geth. It's a good moral choice, I think.

That entirely depends on wether or not you see the Geth as living beings. I don't see machines as being alive(many Quarians, including Tali, do in fact).

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

How is not knowing her fault?

Actually her not knowing is irrelevant.

She collected and sent the parts, so it was irresponsible and stupid of her not to actually find out what the parts were being used for.

People died because she was careless. It's what we call criminal negligence.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:22 .

[KaiserShep]

I imagine in a real criminal case, things like rapport/relationship would also play a part in determining guilt. The person Tali was sending these parts to was both an admiral and her father, both of which establish a reasonable amount of trust, so I think it's unfair to put so much blame on Tali, when her father was basically exploiting that trust. Being an admiral, his responsibilities greatly outweigh hers. Her lack of knowledge of the details of the experience ARE relevant, because this knowledge could have determined whether or not she complied. It was clear that he was keeping this from her to protect her from any blowback, but it also ensures her compliance. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:29 .

[HellbirdIV]

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine in a real criminal case, things like rapport/relationship would also play a part in determining guilt. The person Tali was sending these parts to was both an admiral and her father, both of which establish a reasonable amount of trust, so I think it's unfair to put so much blame on Tali, when her father was basically exploiting that trust.

Tali's father was absolutely the real criminal there. That doesn't really absolve Tali of anything - and it only makes her attempting to cover it all up even worse.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

How is not knowing her fault?

Actually her not knowing is irrelevant.

She collected and sent the parts, so it was irresponsible and stupid of her not to actually find out what the parts were being used for.

People died because she was careless. It's what we call criminal negligence.

She sent parts of drones and hardware. Her dad used enormous amounts of ressources, most of it from other sources. As I said multiple times, but you just ignored it, she took every possible precaution. You can put it any way you want, but Tali was barely even essential for Rael's plans. She is not responsible in any way.

She covered it up out of love for her deceased dad, I would've done the same and you too(I hope).

[KaiserShep]

HellbirdIV wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine in a real criminal case, things like rapport/relationship would also play a part in determining guilt. The person Tali was sending these parts to was both an admiral and her father, both of which establish a reasonable amount of trust, so I think it's unfair to put so much blame on Tali, when her father was basically exploiting that trust.

Tali's father was absolutely the real criminal there. That doesn't really absolve Tali of anything - and it only makes her attempting to cover it all up even worse.

It absolves Tali of responsibility for what happened aboard the ship completely. Had she known what he was doing, she wouldn't have done it. It's really as simple as that. The evidence would have absolved her of any guilt anyway. Her insistence to cover it up is another story, but as the Quarians aboard the Alarei are all dead, and the only one aware of what happened is also technically not guilty due to the evidence at hand, it doesn't really matter. What are they going to do, exile him posthumously? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:34 .

[dublin omega 223]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

How is not knowing her fault?

Actually her not knowing is irrelevant.

She collected and sent the parts, so it was irresponsible and stupid of her not to actually find out what the parts were being used for.

People died because she was careless. It's what we call criminal negligence.

She sent parts of drones and hardware. Her dad used enormous amounts of ressources, most of it from other sources. As I said multiple times, but you just ignored it, she took every possible precaution. You can put it any way you want, but Tali was barely even essential for Rael's plans. She is not responsible in any way.

She covered it up out of love for her deceased dad, I would've done the same and you too(I hope).

Family always watch each others backs,

Example if my older brother killed the doctor who was responisble for my nephew dying during a completely safe operation. I'd give my bro an alibi for where he was during the murder. Plus that doctor removed the wrong kidney of another patient and ran to Bahrain during the inquest into my nephews death.

Modifié par dublin omega 223, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:37 .

[HellbirdIV]

KaiserShep wrote...

It absolves Tali of responsibility for what happened aboard the ship completely. Had she known what he was doing, she wouldn't have done it. It's really as simple as that.

But she did do it.

You can argue motive and intent all you like, but at the end of the day, people are rewarded or punished for what they've done, not what they set out to achieve.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 10:37 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It absolves Tali of responsibility for what happened aboard the ship completely. Had she known what he was doing, she wouldn't have done it. It's really as simple as that.

But she did do it.

You can argue motive and intent all you like, but at the end of the day, people are rewarded or punished for what they've done, not what they set out to achieve.

You don't know much about criminal justice do you? Motive, knowledge and intent play a major factor in court.

That said, the ressources Tali provided are only a fraction of the total ressources, coming from dozens of other sources. As I said, her part was minimal.

[DeinonSlayer]

So, hey, what was this thread supposed to be about again?

Oh, right.

[KaiserShep]

HellbirdIV wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It absolves Tali of responsibility for what happened aboard the ship completely. Had she known what he was doing, she wouldn't have done it. It's really as simple as that.

But she did do it.

You can argue motive and intent all you like, but at the end of the day, people are rewarded or punished for what they've done, not what they set out to achieve.

This is oversimplifying. If a family member asked me to send a cutlery set, and that person uses that cutlery set to eviscerate someone, am I responsible for what happened, even though all I thought that person was going to do with it was use it to prepare food? 

[dublin omega 223]

KaiserShep wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It absolves Tali of responsibility for what happened aboard the ship completely. Had she known what he was doing, she wouldn't have done it. It's really as simple as that.

But she did do it.

You can argue motive and intent all you like, but at the end of the day, people are rewarded or punished for what they've done, not what they set out to achieve.

This is oversimplifying. If a family member asked me to send a cutlery set, and that person uses that cutlery set to eviscerate someone, am I responsible for what happened, even though all I thought that person was going to do with it was use it to prepare food? 

Excellent point.

[HellbirdIV]

KaiserShep wrote...

This is oversimplifying. If a family member asked me to send a cutlery set, and that person uses that cutlery set to eviscerate someone, am I responsible for what happened, even though all I thought that person was going to do with it was use it to prepare food? 

It's not a perfect analogy. Tali did know what the geth parts were being used for - research - she just assumed it meant building anti-synthetic weapons, because her father wouldn't be so dumb as to reactivate living geth, right? (I also think that bringing geth to the Flotilla is illegal in itself, and she's just exploiting a loophole in actual quarian law.)

A better analogy might be that a younger sibling asks to borrow a gun from you - say, a hunting rifle - and you lend it to them knowing that they will use it to shoot something. You just assume they won't actually be crazy enough to shoot a person, after all, they know better, right?

Then they use your gun to try and murder someone who bullied them at school. Not only do they fail to kill the bully, but they instead kill several other people with missed shots.

You assumed, without making certain - and that can be a fatal mistake.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 11:07 .

[Khelish]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

So, hey, what was this thread supposed to be about again?

Oh, right.

This.

Seriously.

Hella burd.

Go to bed please.

[HellbirdIV]

Khelish wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

So, hey, what was this thread supposed to be about again?

Oh, right.

This.

The thread flows where the discussion takes it.

[Khelish]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Khelish wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

So, hey, what was this thread supposed to be about again?

Oh, right.

This.

The thread flows where the discussion takes it.

Read the rules please. It's getting a little old to see every talk devolve into topics you deem "where teh discussion takes us".

[KaiserShep]

HellbirdIV wrote...

It's not a perfect analogy. Tali did know what the geth parts were being used for - research - she just assumed it meant building anti-synthetic weapons, because her father wouldn't be so dumb as to reactivate living geth, right? (I also think that bringing geth to the Flotilla is illegal in itself, and she's just exploiting a loophole in actual quarian law.)

Just as I would know what the cutlery set was being used for - cutting. Of course, no analogy is going to be really perfect here, given the nature of the story, but in the end, it's still the admiral skirting or outright violating the laws. But this:

A better analogy might be that a younger sibling asks to borrow a gun from you - say, a hunting rifle - and you lend it to them knowing that they will use it to shoot something. You just assume they won't actually be crazy enough to shoot a person, after all, they know better, right?

...is not really a better analogy, as there are laws against transferring firearms to others (varied by state/country of course) and there's a reason why guns are not supposed to be handed over to minors (I'm assuming this is a minor, otherwise "younger" would be irrelevant). I don't really feel like delving into all of the details here, but there's a significant difference between sending material for research to a military leader, with whom you place supreme trust to safeguard the best interests of the entirety of your race, and lending a weapon to a minor, for whatever reason. 

Then they use your gun to try and murder someone who bullied them at school. Not only do they fail to kill the bully, but they instead kill several other people with missed shots.

Unless the law specifically permits you to lend this person the weapon, you would be responsible for anything and everything that happens after that, unless of course, it was reported stolen before the incident.

I don't want to derail this further, but to get back on topic, I think this question would be more interesting if instead of Asari, we simply saw this as "your favorite MEU race". Some people hate the Asari, for whatever reason, so automatically those people are disqualified. The fact that they [the Asari government] hid a beacon does not really warrant their extinction. There has to be some kind of circumstance that kind of makes sense that their sacrifice is necessary in the first place. Things like karma or whatever, are idiotic, so I don't really give much credence to that. Heck if I had the power to erase an MEU species, I'd be very tempted to press the Salarian button, but it would be dumb of me to do it just because I don't like a lot of them. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 juillet 2013 - 11:27 .

[HellbirdIV]

Khelish wrote...

Read the rules please. It's getting a little old to see every talk devolve into topics you deem "where teh discussion takes us".

You could always report Necanor's posts, if the off-topic stuff bothers you so much.

KaiserShep wrote...

Just as I would know what the cutlery set was being used for - cutting. Of course, no analogy is going to be really perfect here, given the nature of the story, but in the end, it's still the admiral skirting or outright violating the laws.

Tali admits to playing her own part in that, something along the lines of "Not technically legal". I'll be better informed when I replay ME2 in a few days.

KaiserShep wrote...

I don't want to derail this further, but to get back on topic, I think
this question would be more interesting if instead of Asari, we simply
saw this as "your favorite MEU race".

I don't want to sacrifice anybody, damn it. I mean, I eventually did sacrifice the Geth in the original Destroy ending... But that doesn't really count as a choice, I think.

Aside from that, my other arguments stand: 

If it's one race versus the rest of the galaxy? Very most likely.

If it's one race over another? A lot more muddled and morally dubious.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 09 juillet 2013 - 11:30 .

[KaiserShep]

Yeah I thought of the geth and EDI as a sacrifice, as I really did want to save them, but the other options were so hair-brained that this kind of does make their "sacrifice" feel kind of cheap.

[Khelish]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Read the rules please. It's getting a little old to see every talk devolve into topics you deem "where teh discussion takes us".

You could always report Necanor's posts, if the off-topic stuff bothers you so much.

Last I checked, you are the one still posting about it... 

[HellbirdIV]

KaiserShep wrote...

Yeah I thought of the geth and EDI as a sacrifice, as I really did want to save them, but the other options were so hair-brained that this kind of does make their "sacrifice" feel kind of cheap.

Is it still off-topic if we rant about the endings, though?