556 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Depends on the species. If it was Asari sacrificed to save the Krogan or the Turians I would, any other race I prefer the Asari for their armies, wealth, and biotic power.

[ForThessia]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
They were written to be a fantasy, not a species, created by straight men to be better women than women. I am insulted by their very existence.

Sounds a bit like jealousy to me.........

The reason they're good at that stuff is because they're more advanced and have been around longer than the other races. The Humans have been on the stage for 30 years and they're already one of the best at everything.

Modifié par ForThessia, 31 mars 2013 - 09:08 .

[David7204]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
good at everything they try (even if it's something another species is supposed to be the best at, they're ranked close second without breaking a sweat),

I think you mean the Humans.

Who has galaxy-renowned commandos and the only reason they're not doing well in the army is because they're just not trying hard enough? Asari.
Who are always the top scientists and medical teams when the salarians are out of the way? Asari.
Who are coming close to beating out the volus when it comes to finance? Asari.
Who are the longest lived race after the krogan? Asari.

And then there's the stuff they're legitimately good at.
Who are the best poets, artists, etc? Asari.
Who are the most beautiful/desired? Asari.
Who are the most wise? Asari.
Who are the most kind/loving/virtuous? Asari
Who are the best biotics? Asari.
Who are the best sex partners because of their literal mind-blowing power? Asari.
Who are the best parents because they have life stages actually devoted to being the perfect mommy? Asari.

They were written to be a fantasy, not a species, created by straight men to be better women than women. I am insulted by their very existence.

And why does the idea of 'better women than women' offend you?

[Neria Rose]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Which begs the question, did Bioware really have that low an opinion of their fans?

They must have. Otherwise, they wouldn't have topped off the Asari fantasy with "barely more than a child" hero-worshipping virginity in ME1.

[David7204]

Neria Rose wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Which begs the question, did Bioware really have that low an opinion of their fans?

They must have. Otherwise, they wouldn't have topped off the Asari fantasy with "barely more than a child" hero-worshipping virginity in ME1.

That is moronic. An inexperienced companion that looks to the hero is an established and effective archtype found throughout countless stories.

[Zeldrik1389]

I don't think they fantasized Asari too much though. They appeared to be as secretive, and selfish as any other species though, nothing "perfectly godlike" about them imo. For instance, they keep the Prothean artifact secret and ONLY told Shepard about it when it's pretty much too dam late. Their government selfishness, like Shepard said, pretty much got the whole Galaxy into this whole mess (Funny how they had the Artifact, studied it for thousands of years, and still fooled themselves into refuse to believe Reapers exists until they start attacking the galaxy. I say, for a "supposed to be" wisest race, they are pretty dumb.) They hide their dirty secret, refuse to face a cruel reality, and stupidly selfish, just like any other races. I don't think they are anywhere close to perfect lol
And again, Asari has been around for ages, the first race to found the Citadel, formed the Council with the Salarian. It took them thousands of years to build their standing in the galaxy now. Look at Human, In less than a century since human first discovered Mass Relay, we go from newcomer, to be a part of the Council, and then the head of the fight against Reapers. Which races is the overpower, over fantasized one here? xD

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 31 mars 2013 - 09:13 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

ForThessia wrote...

Sounds a bit like jealousy to me.........

The reason their good at that stuff is because they're more advanced and older than the other races. The Humans have been on the stage for 30 years and they're already one of the best at everything.

I wouldn't say I'm jealous, because they're just a fantasy. I'm just massively resentful of this 'better than real' race and the reasons behind it. It's sexist as heck.

David7204 wrote...

And why does the idea of 'better women than women' offend you?

Because I'm a woman? I have to deal with this 'unrealistic expectations' crap all day with photoshopped magazine covers and CG'd makeup ads taking naturally gorgeous women and saying, "Not good enough, they need to be completely unattainable.". I'm used to it. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

No straight man in the game ever says, "Eh, I'm not really into the asari." They all are. Because Asari are a fantasy. Why would anyone settle for anything else when they can have asari? Honestly non-asari women, it's cute that you're even still trying at this point. They've already cornered the market on femininity, just pack it up and go home.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 31 mars 2013 - 09:15 .

[DeinonSlayer]

No one species is worth the rest of the galaxy, regardless of what species that is. Same goes for humans. I sacrificed the engineers on X57 to stop Balak. In one ME2 playthrough, I sacrificed half the Normandy crew to save the colony of Watson (N7: Javelin Missiles Launched). No regrets either time. This is the exact same situation, writ large.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2013 - 09:17 .

[Neria Rose]

David7204 wrote...

That is moronic. An inexperienced companion that looks to the hero is an established and effective archtype found throughout countless stories.

Aww, get your knickers in a bunch? Anyway, how many other "inexperienced companions" out there are, on top of being naive, virginal, and extremely young for their species, also discount lesbians, long-lived, and allegedly super attractive to everyone? I'm sure there must be one or two out there in some shoddy anime or manga.

[Xilizhra]

In all likelihood, no. The asari are the race I want to keep around most. I don't think I would sacrifice two races for them, but I would definitely do one of any other (not least because they're also the most populous, hence saving them would be saving the greatest number of people).

No straight man in the game ever says, "Eh, I'm not really into the
asari." They all are. Because Asari are a fantasy. Why would anyone
settle for anything else when they can have asari? Honestly non-asari
women, it's cute that you're even still trying at this point. They've
already cornered the market on femininity, just pack it up and go home.

Actually, Kai Leng does, and I think male Shepard can, in some way or another. We also never see any human women who look noticeably less attractive than typical asari, so far as I can tell, nor do individual asari characters tend to have more specifically prominent roles as a general rule.

I can see some aspeccts of their creation pandering to men, but I cannot accept them as being an attack against women. In any case, I love certain aspects of an all-female race for my own reasons.

Aww, get your knickers in a bunch? Anyway, how many other "inexperienced
companions" out there are, on top of being naive, virginal, and
extremely young for their species, also discount lesbians, long-lived,
and allegedly super attractive to everyone? I'm sure there must be one
or two out there in some shoddy anime or manga.

Liara's not that young, she's like 25. Being 106 in ME1, we compare that to a 60-year-old asari in ME2 who's just moved out of her parents' house. That's probably along the lines of 18, and Liara is 46 years older than that, in addition to having a doctorate.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 mars 2013 - 09:21 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

I don't think they fantasized Asari too much though. They appeared to be as secretive, and selfish as any other species though, nothing "perfectly godlike" about them imo. For instance, they keep the Prothean artifact secret and ONLY told Shepard about it when it's pretty much too dam late. Their government selfishness, like Shepard said, pretty much got the whole Galaxy into this whole mess (Funny how they had the Artifact, studied it for thousands of years, and still fooled themselves into refuse to believe Reapers exists until they start attacking the galaxy. I say, for a "supposed to be" wisest race, they are pretty dumb.) They hide their dirty secret, refuse to face a cruel reality, and stupidly selfish, just like any other races. I don't think they are anywhere close to perfect lol
And again, Asari has been around for ages, the first race to found the Citadel, formed the Council with the Salarian. It took them thousands of years to build their standing in the galaxy now. Look at Human, In less than a century since human first discovered Mass Relay, we go from newcomer, to be a part of the Council, and then the head of the fight against Reapers. Which races is the overpower, over fantasized one here? xD

While I appreciated the Prothean artifact excuse for a lot of their advancements as it made them somewhat more realistic, the 'secretive and selfish as any other species' angle was completely non-existant up until that point. And once it's revealed, the asari still get off scot-free. And most of them didn't even know about it, absolving them completely of the guilt while they continue to reap the benefits.

And it still doesn't explain why the Protheans decided to uplift them in the first place, the implication being because they're perfect beautiful fantasy babes and even in their primitive stages the Protheans wanted to tap that.

As for humans... I completely agree. I'm not saying the humans are any better.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 31 mars 2013 - 09:20 .

[Xilizhra]

While I appreciated the Prothean artifact excuse for a lot of their advancements as it made them somewhat more realistic, the 'secretive and selfish as any other species' angle was completely non-existant up until that point. And once it's revealed, the asari still get off scot-free. And most of them didn't even know about it, absolving them completely of the guilt while they continue to reap the benefits.

Good, at least you comprehend that the vast majority of the species wasn't guilty. Too few people do that.

And it still doesn't explain why the Protheans decided to uplift them in the first place, the implication being because they're perfect beautiful fantasy babes and even in their primitive stages the Protheans wanted to tap that.

Who knows? But we know the Protheans were fiddling with humans and hanar too, and we never get a chance to confirm or deny this with turians or krogan (salarians didn't evolve sapience until after the Protheans fell).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 mars 2013 - 09:23 .

[AlexMBrennan]

We had:

Geth vs. Quarians

That largely depends on whether you can suspend enough disbelief to accept that the geth are alive.

Krogan vs. Salarians/Turians

No, that's never the choice. Curing the genophage is the sacrifice - Shepard needs turian support for the Crucible project, and cures the genophage to secure it.

[David7204]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And why does the idea of 'better women than women' offend you?

Because I'm a woman? I have to deal with this 'unrealistic expectations' crap all day with photoshopped magazine covers and CG'd makeup ads taking naturally gorgeous women and saying, "Not good enough, they need to be completely unattainable.". I'm used to it. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

No straight man in the game ever says, "Eh, I'm not really into the asari." They all are. Because Asari are a fantasy. Why would anyone settle for anything else when they can have asari? Honestly non-asari women, it's cute that you're even still trying at this point. They've already cornered the market on femininity, just pack it up and go home.

You think Garrus is beautiful, don't you?

Hell, I'm a straight male, and I think he's beautiful. I know exactly what most guys are like and I know he's leaps and bounds above all of them. He's a hero. Stong and smart and loyal and brave.

Modifié par David7204, 31 mars 2013 - 09:26 .

[HolyAvenger]

I actually thought the asari an interesting take on the usual "wise and advanced space elves" species one usually tends to find in most space opera. In fact the fact that most advanced civilization and de-fact leader of the galaxy was a race of pseudo-women was a pretty pro-feminist move I thought.

I certainly didn't think they were all around to bang, as it were.

[Megaton_Hope]

I certainly wouldn't sacrifice all the other space-faring races for the Asari. It's a big galaxy, and Krogans and Volus have things to contribute to it as well. (Not to mention, the Asari have a better chance to survive as a species even if their planet and culture are wiped out, since they can reproduce even without a single breeding pair.)

If it were a question of saving either the Asari or one of the other races, though, I'd probably lean toward the Asari. The one real downside would be the Ardat-Yakshi, which thanks to Asari cultural norms are infrequently produced. Otherwise, they're a long-lived species with an advanced society, both of which I consider to be assets. It'd be like burning down the Louvre to let the Asari die.

If it were between the Asari and humanity...or, I should say, Thessia and Earth...Hard question. Earth's kind of a crap-hole.

[ThatDancingTurian]

HolyAvenger wrote...

I actually thought the asari an interesting take on the usual "wise and advanced space elves" species one usually tends to find in most space opera. In fact the fact that most advanced civilization and de-fact leader of the galaxy was a race of pseudo-women was a pretty pro-feminist move I thought.

I certainly didn't think they were all around to bang, as it were.

They have an entire life stage devoted to stripping and then the very next one is devoted to being the perfect mommy to your perfect babies. They don't choose to, it's ingrained in their (straight male devised) biology. They show no wrinkles or signs of aging 900 years on, they just go up in cup size. How is that pro-feminist?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You humans are all racists.

[ThinkSharp]

@ the debate about Asari feminism/sexism

The Asari follow a trope. BW freely admits their basis on the staple "blue-skinned space babe" of science fiction.

For better and for worse.

They fulfill stereotypes/trope, that's frustrating. But that's not all they are. Love it or hate it.

Modifié par ThinkSharp, 31 mars 2013 - 09:38 .

[HolyAvenger]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

I actually thought the asari an interesting take on the usual "wise and advanced space elves" species one usually tends to find in most space opera. In fact the fact that most advanced civilization and de-fact leader of the galaxy was a race of pseudo-women was a pretty pro-feminist move I thought.

I certainly didn't think they were all around to bang, as it were.

They have an entire life stage devoted to stripping and then the very next one is devoted to being the perfect mommy to your perfect babies. They don't choose to, it's ingrained in their (straight male devised) biology. They show no wrinkles or signs of aging 900 years on, they just go up in cup size. How is that pro-feminist?

 

All maidens are strippers? Really? Is that your take-away from the games? Because it wasn't mine. Sure, some are. Some are mercenaries. Some are commandos. Some get their PhDs and become archaeologists. Their biology was basically the human one, I thought, just extended over a 1000 years or so. Adolescence and growing up, adulthood and then post-menstrual. Nowhere in the games is it mentioned they are forced to adhere to each of these stages rigidly, in fact the opposite, they are mentioned as being general guides to which part of her lifespan an asari has reached. 

And you don't think there's anything pro-feminist in the asari being all the things you mentioned (superb artists, scientists, warriors, biotics, financiers etc). I thought that was a pretty strong message myself.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 31 mars 2013 - 09:37 .

[Epsilon330]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

I actually thought the asari an interesting take on the usual "wise and advanced space elves" species one usually tends to find in most space opera. In fact the fact that most advanced civilization and de-fact leader of the galaxy was a race of pseudo-women was a pretty pro-feminist move I thought.

I certainly didn't think they were all around to bang, as it were.

They have an entire life stage devoted to stripping and then the very next one is devoted to being the perfect mommy to your perfect babies. They don't choose to, it's ingrained in their (straight male devised) biology. They show no wrinkles or signs of aging 900 years on, they just go up in cup size. How is that pro-feminist?

I concur with Aris. The more you look at the Asari's overall abilities, "aesthetics", biology and role in the lore, the more they seem like some odd practical joke that a developer pulled during ME1's production. It's like they're a satirical parody of the "Green-Skinned Space Babe" trope that sci-fi used to dish out all the time.
Perfect reproduction? No "ugly" members? Incredible intelligence, wit and strategy? Stereotypical "sci-fi" weapon and building architecture? (Have you seen Thessia and the Disciple?!)
The fact that their poster-child, Liara T'Soni, becomes a bland, worn-out Mary-Sue/Creator's Pet by ME3 does not help the matter one little bit.

[David7204]

I would actually call it more of a Reconstruction of the trope.

[HolyAvenger]

ThinkSharp wrote...

@ the debate about Asari feminism/sexism

The Asari follow a trope. BW freely admits their basis on the staple "blue-skinned space babe" of science fiction.

For better and for worse.

 

Yes, I think they were paying homage to this trope and mocking it at the same time. 

[PwrdOff]

The asari are far from perfect, behind that veneer they've constructed they're nothing more than self-serving cowards. Despite their place as the leading power in the galaxy they spend most of the war hanging back watching the other races get bloodied while doing nothing to help, and it comes back to bite them on Thessia. Even the volus have more fight in them than that.