61 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

fchopin wrote...

From what you say in your post proves that you have never played a dw dex rogue.

A dex dw rogue without 30 willpower does not function correctly and will get in to trouble.

Again i say try before criticizing.
My last post today as i will play the game now.

I haven't played a Dual-Wield Dex Rogue, but I've played a Cunning Rogue, and I can tell you that I never needed to put a single point into Willpower to be of any use. If you're finding that you keep running out of Stamina, then all I can say is that you may want to look into changing your fighting strategy. Stop spamming abilities, and start backstabbing.

In fact, most of the people who are arguing against putting points into Willpower are probably assuming that your rogue's primary battle strategy is backstabbing. The damage output a Rogue can get on backstabs is amazing.

As an example, using nothing but backstabs, I was able to beat Flemeth and the High Dragon in less than a minute each, and I never put any points into Willpower. All I needed was Momentum and a Swift Salve, and they were as good as dead.

[Fieryeel]

I don't put anything in willpower at all. It's....just useless to me.

[mosspit]

tetracycloide wrote...

31 strength
-3 Vanguard
-2 key to the city
-2 harvest festival ring
-2 helm of honnleath
-2 andruil's blessing
-2 shadow of the empire
-1 witherfang amulet
-4 fade essences
= 13 strength needed

A bit pricey and time consuming to assemble but certainly doable. It does require that you side with caradin against branka to loot the mace, without it the barbarian mace from the chasind trail signs quest could be used raising the minimum requirement to 15. The witherfang ammulet requires that witherfang be killed as well without it there is no strength amulet for a maximum requirement of 16.

Valuable information. OP just need to decide whether he can wait until killing Branka and Witherfang before equiping the sword is worthwhile. Looks to me item build can be accomplished around 50% of plythru progress. Price should not be a problem as Deep Roads is filled with riches. Lol OP should jot this down.

[Silensfurtim]

lol ive had 3 rogue playthoughs and found out that base WIL is enough.



put on the top rogue gears and spellward amulet and youre all set.

[fchopin]

From all the replies i see you all played cun rogues and that is different , try playing a dex rogue and you will see the difference.

[mosspit]

fchopin wrote...

From all the replies i see you all played cun rogues and that is different , try playing a dex rogue and you will see the difference.

So assuming you have played both a cun AND a dex rogue, can you be more specific on the benefits in the context of a dex rogue in adding Willpower and maybe why do you think that there is a discrepancy when comparing a dex rogue with a cun rogue?

Modifié par mosspit, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:14 .

[Silensfurtim]

yeah we would like to hear about your wonderful experience with WIL Rogues lol

[Timortis]

fchopin wrote...

From all the replies i see you all played cun rogues and that is different , try playing a dex rogue and you will see the difference.

I soloed the game on NM with a dex Rogue with base will. Is that enough experience?

[Dragoon001]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/96/index/547017#547032

[fchopin]

mosspit wrote...

fchopin wrote...

From all the replies i see you all played cun rogues and that is different , try playing a dex rogue and you will see the difference.

So assuming you have played both a cun AND a dex rogue, can you be more specific on the benefits in the context of a dex rogue in adding Willpower and maybe why do you think that there is a discrepancy when comparing a dex rogue with a cun rogue?

A dex rogue is made for fighting so the rogue is always in the middle of the toughest fights.
 
You could be fighting 6 enemies so you need all the will power you can have.
 
If you setup up momentum, duelling and duel striking to be on all the time you will have very little stamina left.
It is all very well fighting one enemy as a cun rogue but try fighting 6 enemies at the same time and you will see the benefits of a dex rogue with good stamina.
 
Give it a try and then report on the results, i don’t use numbers to setup my characters i do it by testing while playing the game. Putting a few extra points in to dex will not help you when you have no stamina left in a tough fight.

[mosspit]

hmm you advise people to try out adding willpower in a possibly a new playthru with a dex rogue and see the difference. However, the benefits you stated is more related to individual playstyle rather than capitalizing on the strengths of a patricular class. One of the things that can tie up the gaming experience of the gamers in a consistent manner is in fact numbers. If you choose to ignore "numbers", you removed a strong base and anything everything is possible

Modifié par mosspit, 17 janvier 2010 - 02:10 .

[tetracycloide]

A rogue that puts points in willpower to support running dual striking, a sustain that prevents backstabing? Now I have heard everything. I cannot speak for the other posters but I do use numbers to setup my characters and I do this because play testing a specific setup or attribute configuration in a game this easy will produce meaningless results. Case in point, a rogue pumping willpower to use dual striking.

[Timortis]

fchopin wrote...
 
If you setup up momentum, duelling and duel striking to be on all the time you will have very little stamina left.
It is all very well fighting one enemy as a cun rogue but try fighting 6 enemies at the same time and you will see the benefits of a dex rogue with good stamina.
 
Give it a try and then report on the results, i don’t use numbers to setup my characters i do it by testing while playing the game. Putting a few extra points in to dex will not help you when you have no stamina left in a tough fight.

Why would you even use dual-striking when you have 2 stuns that let you backstab from the front and easily 40% crit rate with daggers by the end of the game? Stamina regens with the right gear, I've  played 4 Dex Rogues, 2 of them solo, all on NM, and never had a problem fighting multiple enemies. Base will is enough, you can increase it with gear.

[Silensfurtim]

Base WIL + Fade Bonus + Spellward Amulet/KttC/Honnleath/Andruil = 271 WIL



50 Dual Striking

60 Momentum

30 Dueling

---------

140



Stamina

271 - 140 = 131



what can you activate with 131 Stamina?



Dirty Fighting 25

Riposte 40

Dual Weapon Sweep 20

Flurry 40

Whirlwind 40

Pinpoint Strike 60

Upset Balance 25

Punisher 50

Cripple 35

Below the Belt 25

Deadly Strike 25



Do you really believe you need to activate all those skills to kill 6 people? LOL. With Pure DEX you can just auto attack everything.



If youre worried about stamina drain, it doesnt matter. Since Wicked Oath, Felons Coat, Andruils offsets your stamina drain.



I've played CUN Rogues, DEX Rogues, DEX/CUN Rogues on all difficulties and WIL doesnt really matter.

[fchopin]

mosspit wrote...

hmm you advise people to try out adding willpower in a possibly a new playthru with a dex rogue and see the difference. However, the benefits you stated is more related to individual playstyle rather than capitalizing on the strengths of a patricular class. One of the things that can tie up the gaming experience of the gamers in a consistent manner is in fact numbers. If you choose to ignore "numbers", you removed a strong base and anything everything is possible

You are correct, it is all related to individual play style.
I don’t ignore numbers, i just adjust them to fit in to how i wish my character to be in the game.
Having tried the different ways posted in other threads i was not happy with any of the results, i was not enjoying the game as my rogues were not performing to my expectations, now my rogues are perfect for my playstyle and i have no fear of anything in the game.

[mosspit]

"What I like and wanna do" vs "What I advise for others". You can do anything in the game you find is enjoyable and fun, anything. However when you advise others based on an individualistic playstyle, it is very likely others wun find your advice meaningful.

[tetracycloide]

Sometimes you also need to adjust your playstyle to fit the class you're playing. I wouldn't play my rogue like a mage, for example. Case in point, don't pump willpower and use sustains that turn of backstabbing on a rogue because rogues aren't warriors.

[fchopin]

Silensfurtim wrote...


Do you really believe you need to activate all those skills to kill 6 people? LOL. With Pure DEX you can just auto attack everything.

I've played CUN Rogues, DEX Rogues, DEX/CUN Rogues on all difficulties and WIL doesnt really matter.

Yes you can auto attack for most fights and that will be fine but for some of the tougher fights not.
You have enough stamina to use one or two of your talents but after that you have to wait and for some of the very tough fights you could be in trouble.
In my games my character has zero injuries and 100% hit rate at the higher levels.

[Carodej]

Timortis wrote...

fchopin wrote...
 
If you setup up momentum, duelling and duel striking to be on all the time you will have very little stamina left.
It is all very well fighting one enemy as a cun rogue but try fighting 6 enemies at the same time and you will see the benefits of a dex rogue with good stamina.
 
Give it a try and then report on the results, i don’t use numbers to setup my characters i do it by testing while playing the game. Putting a few extra points in to dex will not help you when you have no stamina left in a tough fight.

Why would you even use dual-striking when you have 2 stuns that let you backstab from the front and easily 40% crit rate with daggers by the end of the game? Stamina regens with the right gear, I've  played 4 Dex Rogues, 2 of them solo, all on NM, and never had a problem fighting multiple enemies. Base will is enough, you can increase it with gear.

The only build I have finished the game with was a DW dex rogue (but with points in cunning for traps and such).  I have used Dual Striking, it's very useful to increase damage output.  But you're right that once you have Coup De Grace, then it's normally better to turn off Dual Striking.

And @fchopin, those three only limit your ability to use other talents when you're still a relatively low level.  Once you are higher level, you really should easily have enough stamina - especially since you are better off when you turn off Dual Striking.

One of the great strengths of the dex build is the great defense = great survivability.  Taking on 6 opponents at once isn't normally much of a risk for this build, even without buffs.  (Unless you're fighting something that can Overwhelm.)

Oh, and @tetracycloide, that's interesting info about getting that much strength from gear.  I doubt I'll ever use it, but I didn't realize there was enough plus gear in the game to actually do that.  I just think I'll leave my dex using daggers though.

[fchopin]

tetracycloide wrote...

rogues aren't warriors.

My rogue is a warrior.

[tetracycloide]

fchopin wrote...
My rogue is a warrior.

If by 'warrior' you mean a pale shadow of the backstab DPS machine they could be, then yes.  No matter how much you try to play them like a warrior your rogue will always be a rogue.  Obviously you can ignore this and get by just fine, the game is easy enough even on nightmare, but you're still ignoring the fundamental advantage of a rogue, backstabs.  With the same playstyle on a warrior you'd have even more stamina for active abilities and more damage per strike, why pick rogue if you're not going to take advantage of the difference?

[Silensfurtim]

first, a Dual Striking DEX Rogue.



now, a Rogue Warrior.





this gets better and better.

[fchopin]

tetracycloide wrote...

If by 'warrior' you mean a pale shadow of the backstab DPS machine they could be, then yes.  No matter how much you try to play them like a warrior your rogue will always be a rogue.  Obviously you can ignore this and get by just fine, the game is easy enough even on nightmare, but you're still ignoring the fundamental advantage of a rogue, backstabs.  With the same playstyle on a warrior you'd have even more stamina for active abilities and more damage per strike, why pick rogue if you're not going to take advantage of the difference?

First you cannot play as a dw for a warrior because all your talents are in the wrong place so you need to be at least level 7 to do anything useful.
 
And the big difference between a warrior and a rogue is my rogue can survive without problems, it is not all about high hit rate.
 
I am not forcing anyone to play differently, just making a point that there are more ways for people to try out and not worry too much about numbers because numbers will not help you when you find yourself in trouble in the game.

[Timortis]

Carodej wrote...

The only build I have finished the game with was a DW dex rogue (but with points in cunning for traps and such).  I have used Dual Striking, it's very useful to increase damage output.  But you're right that once you have Coup De Grace, then it's normally better to turn off Dual Striking.

Dual Striking has its place, like early on when you have low crit rate and you're fighting something you can't backstab because you can't stun, but later when you have very high crit chance, I think it's a waste, except for when you use it with Pinpoint Strike.

[tetracycloide]

What is meant by 'all your talents are in the wrong place' aren't you picking all the talents for your main character individually from the start? A dual wield warrior works just fine, max all the dual wield talents and go to town.



The big different between a warrior and a rogue is backstabs, damage per level, stamina per level, health per level, and class specific specializations and talents. There is no survivability difference, dexterity stacks in exactly the same way for both classes.



The point you made originally was not 'do what you like, lots of stuff works' it was 'A dex dw rogue without 30 willpower does not function correctly and will get in to trouble' which is pretty much the opposite of 'do what you like.' It certainly reads as if you were stating it was impossible to do it any other way. What else could you have meant by 'does not function correctly?