131 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Vortex13 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Anyway, yeh, I have to think that a Christian game would not deal realistically with mature themes (sex).  But DAO is one of the few games where I saw a game even beginning to approach a realistic depiction of sexual relationships so that in and of itself is not a deal breaker.  

I would think that a Christian game, movie, ect. could handle themes like sexual relationships. Granted these things are generally not discussed in church services, but Christianity has no problems with a healthy sex life, once a person is married. It's sex outside of marriage that Christianity has a problem with.

Well, yes and no -- it really does depend on the sect.  There are many sects of Christianity (and other religions, but the conversation is about Christianity) that believe sex should be for procreation only and not pleasure, and there are even some that decry being naked and call for underwear sex (which actually, you see in DAO as well so perhaps...).  This may be more evident with what women in many churches are taught, but there is an underlying current in many, many sects that sex is dirty and sinful, even within a marriage.  It leads to a great amount of guilt, especially for women.  

And that leads to the other issue of what would be a considered a game based on Christian values.  There is so much variation in beliefs even among Christianity, and not only minor differences.  Compare the belief differences between, say, a progressive Methodist Church and a fundamentalist Pentacostal Church and a Roman Catholic Church.  Truthfully, they could be different religions but all would claim to be the true word of Christianity.  So which do you pick?

[mousestalker]

One side note: The predominant theme of Christianity is redmption, which is also a very popular theme in video games. I could justify making a hedonistic party dominant Sims type game simply by basing it on the life of St Augustine, for example. Some of the saints and martyrs had rather exciting lives as well.

Or you could simply faithfully adapt Lord of the Rings and any other Tolkien books to video gaming. There are angels in those books, after all. Some of the stories in the Silmarillion would make better video game fodder than LoTR.

[Vortex13]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, yes and no -- it really does depend on the sect.  There are many sects of Christianity (and other religions, but the conversation is about Christianity) that believe sex should be for procreation only and not pleasure, and there are even some that decry being naked and call for underwear sex (which actually, you see in DAO as well so perhaps...).  This may be more evident with what women in many churches are taught, but there is an underlying current in many, many sects that sex is dirty and sinful, even within a marriage.  It leads to a great amount of guilt, especially for women.  

And that leads to the other issue of what would be a considered a game based on Christian values.  There is so much variation in beliefs even among Christianity, and not only minor differences.  Compare the belief differences between, say, a progressive Methodist Church and a fundamentalist Pentacostal Church and a Roman Catholic Church.  Truthfully, they could be different religions but all would claim to be the true word of Christianity.  So which do you pick?

True, there are many sects that hold varying views on the subject. I was personally speaking of 1 Corinthians 7:5:

" Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

I never took the sexual act to be sin, except outside of marriage.

Edit: You also have the Song of Solomon in the Old Testement, specifically the part where he is describing his wife. Procreation wasn't the basis for his descriptions.

Modifié par Vortex13, 03 avril 2013 - 03:33 .

[Harmless Citizen]

ejoslin wrote...

Did someone actually say that?  I didn't see it, but i'm just catching up here.  I think part of what you may be seeing in attitude is most (but not all) atheists tend to be well educated and quite intelligent, but not always good debaters, so they end up sounding elitist.  

Being "well-educated" doesn't prevent you from being a bigot or an idiot, and proselytising atheists tend to fall into both categories. I'm looking especially at Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris.

[ejoslin]

Random Nobody wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Did someone actually say that?  I didn't see it, but i'm just catching up here.  I think part of what you may be seeing in attitude is most (but not all) atheists tend to be well educated and quite intelligent, but not always good debaters, so they end up sounding elitist.  

Being "well-educated" doesn't prevent you from being a bigot or an idiot, and proselytising atheists tend to fall into both categories. I'm looking especially at Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris.

Well, I'd hardly call them idiots -- they are (were in Hitchen's case as he died over a year ago) brilliant, though they are anti-religion.  However, they're allowed to state their views, write books, and debate and others are free not to read or listen.  As far as I know, they have never gone around knocking on doors disturbing people, trying to convert them, though I don't know the intimate details of their lives so I could be wrong.

However, I don't recall anyone tossing around insults either until this post.  Am I missing something?  I guess I'll read the thread a bit more thoroughly.   

Edit: To get back on topic, most video games do seem to have an underlying religious component.  The triumph of good over evil and the humble person rising to savior of all are common themes.  I think the difference is the name of the diety.  In games that I've played, there always does seem to be higher powers -- it's rare that there's no diety or huge supernatural evil in a game.  Then again, there are a lot of games I haven't played.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2013 - 03:46 .

[Harmless Citizen]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, I'd hardly call them idiots --

I would. All of them have a long history of racism, misogyny, peddling "facts" that are simply incorrect, and in Dawkins' case, openly supporting eugenics. I am not impressed by this. Anti-theism does not impress me in general, being that faith in and of itself is not the problem, but rather its institutionalisation. And it should go without saying that replacing bigoted religious institution with equally bigoted secularism (which is of itself shaped by cultural climate) makes no difference at all. If your "rationalism" supports the prevailing ideas institutions that have been destroying lives for hundreds of years,it makes no difference to me if you believe in a god or not. Especially if that disbelief manifests itself as the dismissal of spirituality altogether and outright denial of the historical (and present-day) importance of religion in both culture and science.

...And before the out-of-pocket blowback comes, I am an atheist.

[ejoslin]

Random Nobody wrote...

...And before the out-of-pocket blowback comes, I am an atheist.

Actually, I think you are a troll trying to get the thread locked.  And if not a troll, what you are doing will get the thread locked anyway.

ETA: It's too bad, because it's an interesting discussion.  I know I was treading a fine line as well, so I'm stepping away now JIC some people are able to revive the conversation to a point where it can be discussed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2013 - 04:13 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Random Nobody wrote...

Being "well-educated" doesn't prevent you from being a bigot or an idiot, and proselytising atheists tend to fall into both categories. I'm looking especially at Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris.

Yay, I remember these douchebag scientists. They were the leaders of some anti-religion guys on another forum.

Modifié par Legatus Arianus, 03 avril 2013 - 04:48 .

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Random Nobody wrote...

All of them have a long history of racism, misogyny, peddling "facts" that are simply incorrect, and in Dawkins' case, openly supporting eugenics.

Oh you, pretending to be ignorant of your own hypocrisy, I see what you did there you lil rascal.

[Harmless Citizen]

Actually, I think you are a troll

K.

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...

All of them have a long history of racism, misogyny, peddling "facts" that are simply incorrect, and in Dawkins' case, openly supporting eugenics.

Oh you, pretending to be ignorant of your own hypocrisy, I see what you did there you lil rascal.

Uh-huh. So I'm guessing you've never seen Dawkins' comments about "Muslim barbarism" being caused by the "lack of scientific thought" in Islamic history.

But if I have to explain why that is obviously incorrect, then there's no help for you.

Anyway, it should be clear that I'm not indicting all atheists or non-theists, but a specific sort. The point I'm making is that those three are the heads of (and are well-revered) in anti-theist atheist circles despite their obvious bigotry. And if you move within atheist groups (which are rife with the same nonsense they spew), this shouldn't surprise you at all. Fact of the matter is, a large portion of the video game demographic belong to these groups or have yet to move out of this phase (think of the subforums of Reddit), which is why I don't think that an explicitly religious or spiritual game would be particularly successful, no matter how well done. There's also the fact that cynicism and cosmic pessimism (which is a term I just made up, but you get the idea) are considered "noble" and very much in vogue. You only have to look at gritty, grimdark trend video games have taken to confirm that. So a game with positive (or even neutral) reflections on spirituality or religion? There'd be a market for it, but I sincerely doubt it'd be that large.

Modifié par Random Nobody, 03 avril 2013 - 07:21 .

[MichaelStuart]

I'm going to have to say that a Christian video game is not marketable.
For the sole reason that I can not understand such a game would actual be about.

If anyone can explain I would appreciate it.

[Ridwan]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I'm going to have to say that a Christian video game is not marketable.
For the sole reason that I can not understand such a game would actual be about.

If anyone can explain I would appreciate it.

A point and click adventure game as Jesus would work. Or a build and gather sim as Noah.

[Ninja Stan]

Any more tangents into the pros and cons of real-world religions, or soapboxing about religion, and this thread gets locked. Final warning.

[TheJediSaint]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I'm going to have to say that a Christian video game is not marketable.
For the sole reason that I can not understand such a game would actual be about.

If anyone can explain I would appreciate it.

Excellent reasoning, and pretty much the crux of the argument here I'd say. Labelling something simply as "Christian" is quite ambiguous.

I think trying to develop a game based on a label is a bad place to start.   Bioshock, for examples, explores themes of Objectivism, but it is not an Objectivist game by any stretch.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 10:27 .

[MichaelStuart]

M25105 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I'm going to have to say that a Christian video game is not marketable.
For the sole reason that I can not understand such a game would actual be about.

If anyone can explain I would appreciate it.

A point and click adventure game as Jesus would work. Or a build and gather sim as Noah.

Are you saying it would be a game were we play as a biblical figure?

If so then I can't see a game as marketable on that that alone.
A game were you play as a biblical figure could be marketed for its gameplay, but then the biblical figure would just be window dressing.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Random Nobody wrote...

Actually, I think you are a troll

K.

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...

All of them have a long history of racism, misogyny, peddling "facts" that are simply incorrect, and in Dawkins' case, openly supporting eugenics.

Oh you, pretending to be ignorant of your own hypocrisy, I see what you did there you lil rascal.

Uh-huh. So I'm guessing you've never seen Dawkins' comments about "Muslim barbarism" being caused by the "lack of scientific thought" in Islamic history.

Religion and Race are two entirely different things, please remember that before trying to discredit somebody by throwing around false accusations of racism.

[Vortex13]

MichaelStuart wrote...

M25105 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I'm going to have to say that a Christian video game is not marketable. 
For the sole reason that I can not understand such a game would actual be about.

If anyone can explain I would appreciate it.

A point and click adventure game as Jesus would work. Or a build and gather sim as Noah.

Are you saying it would be a game were we play as a biblical figure?

If so then I can't see a game as marketable on that that alone.
A game were you play as a biblical figure could be marketed for its gameplay, but then the biblical figure would just be window dressing.

It is true; a game marketed specifically as being able to play as a biblical figure wouldn't generate anymore appeal than a game marketed as being able to play as a soldier. It would need something else; specifically an engaging gameplay/story experience to warrant widespread attention. 

Maybe the best way to market a Christian game to the general (mature) audience would be to take the setting to a supernatural, or fantasy realm where the parallels to Christianity could be drawn out in an eye catching world like The Chronicals of Narnia or The Lord of the Rings. Stories where God; or his fantasy equivalent; are shown to be caring and sympathetic, rather than boarderline enemies in Darksiders for example.

Or maybe the story could be set in the real world, but it cast God and Christianity in a appealing light. It wouldn't nessassarily have to be a Bible study game, it could just buck traditional elements. Things like having the protagonist be a Christian, or switching the traditional roles of the crazy religious zealots oppressing the poor and down downtrodden; make the Christians out to be the sane people oppresed by a secular regime for example. It wouldn't even have to quote Bible scriptures every five minutes, just have the plot depict believers in a favorable light. 

[The Hierophant]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...

Actually, I think you are a troll

K.

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...

All of them have a long history of racism, misogyny, peddling "facts" that are simply incorrect, and in Dawkins' case, openly supporting eugenics.

Oh you, pretending to be ignorant of your own hypocrisy, I see what you did there you lil rascal.

Uh-huh. So I'm guessing you've never seen Dawkins' comments about "Muslim barbarism" being caused by the "lack of scientific thought" in Islamic history.

Religion and Race are two entirely different things, please remember that before trying to discredit somebody by throwing around false accusations of racism.

A Muslim is someone who's a follower of Islam and not a race, hence there being Arab Muslims, African Muslims, Chinese Muslims etc.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Vortex13 wrote...
Maybe the best way to market a Christian game to the general (mature) audience would be to take the setting to a supernatural, or fantasy realm where the parallels to Christianity could be drawn out in an eye catching world like The Chronicals of Narnia or The Lord of the Rings. Stories where God; or his fantasy equivalent; are shown to be caring and sympathetic, rather than boarderline enemies in Darksiders for example.

Or maybe the story could be set in the real world, but it cast God and Christianity in a appealing light. It wouldn't nessassarily have to be a Bible study game, it could just buck traditional elements. Things like having the protagonist be a Christian, or switching the traditional roles of the crazy religious zealots oppressing the poor and down downtrodden; make the Christians out to be the sane people oppresed by a secular regime for example. It wouldn't even have to quote Bible scriptures every five minutes, just have the plot depict believers in a favorable light. 

Why would the Christians need to be oppressed by a secular regime though for it to be marketable to a mature audience? In all likelihood it would probably drive away any mature audience as it would seem like you are trying to push the agenda that anyone who rejects religion is irrational and oppressive and that the only way to enlightenment is through Christianity.

The whole idea of an oppressive Secular or Atheist  regime is an oxymoron as the whole idea of Secularism is that people should be free to form their own opinions and beliefs without being oppressed by the beliefs imposed on people by religion.

[TheJediSaint]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Why would the Christians need to be oppressed by a secular regime though for it to be marketable to a mature audience? In all likelihood it would probably drive away any mature audience as it would seem like you are trying to push the agenda that anyone who rejects religion is irrational and oppressive and that the only way to enlightenment is through Christianity.

The whole idea of an oppressive Secular or Atheist  regime is an oxymoron as the whole idea of Secularism is that people should be free to form their own opinions and beliefs without being oppressed by the beliefs imposed on people by religion.

I think the Soviet Union under Stalin, or China under Mao count as oppresive Atheist regimes, but that's a different debate.

A game based on the idea of Christians being oppressed by a secular government is the stuff of fundamentalist conspiracy theory, so it's not going to appeal to a wide audience.

I do think a game with strong Christian themes can be marketable, but I think the conflict of the story needs to be spiritual and personal in nature in order to be appealing to a large audience.  

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 04 avril 2013 - 04:09 .

[Vortex13]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
Maybe the best way to market a Christian game to the general (mature) audience would be to take the setting to a supernatural, or fantasy realm where the parallels to Christianity could be drawn out in an eye catching world like The Chronicals of Narnia or The Lord of the Rings. Stories where God; or his fantasy equivalent; are shown to be caring and sympathetic, rather than boarderline enemies in Darksiders for example.

Or maybe the story could be set in the real world, but it cast God and Christianity in a appealing light. It wouldn't nessassarily have to be a Bible study game, it could just buck traditional elements. Things like having the protagonist be a Christian, or switching the traditional roles of the crazy religious zealots oppressing the poor and down downtrodden; make the Christians out to be the sane people oppresed by a secular regime for example. It wouldn't even have to quote Bible scriptures every five minutes, just have the plot depict believers in a favorable light. 

Why would the Christians need to be oppressed by a secular regime though for it to be marketable to a mature audience? In all likelihood it would probably drive away any mature audience as it would seem like you are trying to push the agenda that anyone who rejects religion is irrational and oppressive and that the only way to enlightenment is through Christianity.

The whole idea of an oppressive Secular or Atheist  regime is an oxymoron as the whole idea of Secularism is that people should be free to form their own opinions and beliefs without being oppressed by the beliefs imposed on people by religion.

I don't see how switching roles would push the idea of eliminating differing viewpoints, unless one considers the "crazy Christian." bad guy troupe as depicting Chrisitanity in general as evil and free secular thinking as the better way. 

A hypothetical plot where this role reversal takes place wouldn't be any different then the use of a Christian believer as the "crazy" person. Why does religion = crazy/evil in most mainstream plots? Sure a religion has its extremists, but then so does everything else. Where's the crazy atheist that hinders anything that he doesn't agree with? 

Eugenics and their use in the justification for the Holocaust was used by secular people. Soviet Russia and the repression of religious freedoms was a secular government.