198 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

My favorite PT is Fenris, Isabella and then Anders LI. The new dialogs it opens are priceless

[AstraDrakkar]

One of the reasons that DA initially appealed to me was because of its romances. Without the romance, DA would be like every other generic fantasy game out there. The great romances are part of what makes a Bioware game what it is.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

One of the reasons that DA initially appealed to me was because of its romances. Without the romance, DA would be like every other generic fantasy game out there. The great romances are part of what makes a Bioware game what it is.

My point exactly. It really is just a generic fantasy game that does nothing unique outside of romances.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 02 avril 2013 - 07:15 .

[AstraDrakkar]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

AstraDrakkar wrote...

One of the reasons that DA initially appealed to me was because of its romances. Without the romance, DA would be like every other generic fantasy game out there. The great romances are part of what makes a Bioware game what it is.

My point exactly. It really is just a generic fantasy game that does nothing unique outside of romances.

I don't agree entirely with your opinion, but I see your point. I should have been more accurate and stated the interpersonal relationships within the game. Not just the romances.

My point was that if these relationships, (including the romances) were not in future DA games - I wouldn't buy them.

[yesikareyes]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If romances don't return, I shall eat my cat.

That escalated quickly... Anyway, I'm sure we will at least get a reference.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

AstraDrakkar wrote...

One of the reasons that DA initially appealed to me was because of its romances. Without the romance, DA would be like every other generic fantasy game out there. The great romances are part of what makes a Bioware game what it is.

My point exactly. It really is just a generic fantasy game that does nothing unique outside of romances.

I don't agree entirely with your opinion, but I see your point. I should have been more accurate and stated the interpersonal relationships within the game. Not just the romances.

My point was that if these relationships, (including the romances) were not in future DA games - I wouldn't buy them.

So, what exactly do you disagree with?

Bolded: That's very interesting. So, you don't care about the games themselves, just the digital relationships and all the drama that goes along with it? What you really want is a digital soap opera that you can participate in and control, am I right?

[Renmiri1]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

So, what exactly do you disagree with?

Bolded: That's very interesting. So, you don't care about the games themselves, just the digital relationships and all the drama that goes along with it? What you really want is a digital soap opera that you can participate in and control, am I right?

Well, it is that or she enjoys the story aspects while you enjoy stick figures batling and that is all there is to your gaming experience.

Bellitling others because you have no idea what moves them is not nice. Nor brings any understanding.

[thebigbad1013]

To me they are absolutely worth it. I won't say that they are my favorite part of the games, but I do think they are a terrific addition and I really enjoy the what they add to the experience. I definitely want romances to return in DA3 and I hope they'll be even better than in the first two games.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Renmiri1 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

So, what exactly do you disagree with?

Bolded: That's very interesting. So, you don't care about the games themselves, just the digital relationships and all the drama that goes along with it? What you really want is a digital soap opera that you can participate in and control, am I right?

Well, it is that or she enjoys the story aspects while you enjoy stick figures batling and that is all there is to your gaming experience.

Bellitling others because you have no idea what moves them is not nice. Nor brings any understanding.

I wasn't. She said she woudn't buy the game if the romances weren't included. That leads me to believe that she doesn't care about the rest of it. I'm just trying to get some clarification.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 02 avril 2013 - 07:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

"To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.... When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
- C.S. Lewis

It isn't fear or shame that drives people to say romances should be toned down

*snip *
.... instead, let's keep 8 romances. Because who needs more than one ending, right? I can head canon all the romantic things me and my virtual GF/BF are going to be doing togeher.

Fast Jimmy wrote... It makes too much business sense for Bioware to ever let go of their corner of the virtual escort service market.

You sure it isn't ? All this spite and hate for a minor part of the game ?  ME3 puts to death the myth that several endings are good per se. Bad writing is bad writing, be it in romance or romance -free story archs.

You are seeing correlation and thinking it is causation. Bioware added more romances and story went downhill. Does this mean more romances are to blame ? Dunno, we also had, global warming, a major financial crisis, microtransactions, 2 elections and many other world events happening at the same time. You can't just suppose that one event causes the other just because they happened in roughly the same time period.

I myself blame the financial crisis, making stockmarkets go sour on gaming companies which in turn started abandoning quality in search of more cash from sweet microtransactions and "gaming as a service". Not because this all happened at the same time stories were going downhill, as I have some knowledge of statistics and don't go for pure time period as causation . But because it is what several industry experts have been saying for years and predicting the game quality downgrade we have been seeing. But you wanna blame the waifus and the pixelated sex, go ahead... It's just not very logical or grown up 

Did everyone forget that ME1 came out in Fall 2007, right when the economy began to collapse in the States? A game that people heralded as brilliant and amazing story-telling, something new to the industry? Do people forget that DA:O came out early 2009, just a fistful of weeks after the government bail out of the largest banks in the world occured?

These games were break out games that sold extremely well and were firmly rooted in story-telling as their key philosophy.

Flash forward to today, when the DOW is reach an all-time high just weeks ago and unemployment is at the lowest levels since 2007. Regardless whether those numbers can be argued to be more or less positivie/optimistic, it is leaps and bounds better than the economic landscape when Bioware's two new flagship IPs were released. 

So I don't buy the "strapped economy" and "tough times" argument for why shoddy games are being made. EA's stock price was at $23 a share in 2009 less than six months after DA:O came out. It was down to its lowest price ever of under $12 a share when ME3 did. Are those two facts tied together? No, of course now. Bioware is just one cog in the greater EA machine. But to blame any type of game being sub-par on the economy is blind to the reality.

If you compare the amount of time DA:O devotes, in actual screen time, to its romances (all variations of them) versus its endings (and all of its many, MANY variations of THAT), then you can see a huge titlting of the scales in favor of vastly more varied ending content.

Compare that to DA2, which was doing ME3 endings before it was cool - same exact outcome, with tiny, slight cosmetic differences. The amount of screen time devoted to the ending of DA2 could be tracked in less than three minutes. I'd wager that's shorter than even one romance sex scene and follow-up pillow talk.

So don't sit there and tell me that it is due to a bad economy or that romances are just innocent bystanders. Bioware romances in the past three years are getting a bigger chunk of the limelight than many other games even give their entire main stories. And, at the same time, Bioware's main stories have become more and more anemic. This is because the main story, particularly the endings, are being done last, after they make sure the romances and pixelated sex are all done and taken care of first. If romances were treated as optional, side and, most importantly, SECONDARY content, this would not be the case. Romances would be cut on the development floor and sold as DLC instead of endings or companions. Instead, Romances are developed first and foremost, while companions and the conclusion to the story are afterthoughts that are finished after a game goes Gold and released through DLC.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 avril 2013 - 08:49 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Compare that to DA2, which had was doing ME3 endings before it was cool - same exact outcome, with tiny, slight cosmetic differences. The amount of screen time devoted to the ending of DA2 could be tracked in less than three minutes. I'd wager that's shorter than even one romance sex scene and follow-up pillow talk.

Damn, Jimmy. Layin' the smackdown today.

[Saiphas85]

I think jimmy if you'd look historically with the possible exception of NWN, there has been a romance arc in every Bioware game going back to BG 2. It was in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and BG 2 before it was ever in ME or DAO. I'd say that romance is also something that attracted large portions of the fan base prior but until the creation of the BSN and its promotion, there was never a place for those to congregate.

[Tempest_]

I look at them as tools for character development and making my protagonists feel unique to each of my playthroughs.

This is how I look at all character relationships in my playthroughs of Bioware games. If they were removed, I'd still happily buy the game provided there were other means of character development to compensate.

Modifié par Quote the Raven, 02 avril 2013 - 11:50 .

[TheJediSaint]

Quote the Raven wrote...

I look at them as tools for character development and making my protagonists feel unique to each of my playthroughs.

This is how I look at all character relationships in my playthroughs of Bioware games. If they were removed, I'd still happily buy the game provided there were other means of character development to compensate.

Pretty much this.  Romances one of the ways I like to diffentiate my character.   However, though nice, romances are not what I'm putting sixty bucks down for.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 12:01 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I imagine character development would actually improve without romances. Any characters that you don't romance automatically have a lot less to say when the romances are included.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 03 avril 2013 - 12:03 .

[xAmilli0n]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I imagine character development would actually improve without romances. Any characters that you don't romance automatically have a lot less to say when the romances are included.

I tend to agree.  Some characters feel like they have nothing to say if you did not follow their romance subplot.  I can imagine all characters getting a boost in character development if there was only one main path, with no optional romance path.

Of course, this could be viewed as removing replayability, and of course, removes the option of romance.  Its interesting the consider the possibility though.

[TheJediSaint]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I imagine character development would actually improve without romances. Any characters that you don't romance automatically have a lot less to say when the romances are included.

Maybe, but I don't think romances really use up that much of a character's...err..budget as you seem to think.   I mean the only reall difference between a romance and a non-romance are a few lines of dialgue and a single scene.

[rapscallioness]

Hey, OP. I'd say that even though your romance option won't be showing up in another game, you and your friend should still enjoy them.

Enjoy the time you do have w/them.

[Fast Jimmy]

Saiphas85 wrote...

I think jimmy if you'd look historically with the possible exception of NWN, there has been a romance arc in every Bioware game going back to BG 2. It was in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and BG 2 before it was ever in ME or DAO. I'd say that romance is also something that attracted large portions of the fan base prior but until the creation of the BSN and its promotion, there was never a place for those to congregate.

I am well aware of Bioware's history, but it is not the PRESENCE of romance content that is the problem. It is the focus. And I could honestly care less about the BSN's penchant for attracting fans of one feature or another. 

It is the cost of putting more and more romance and romance content on games that I am concerned about. And how said romance content seems to (mysteriously!) accompany a trend in recent games that deliver unsatisfying stories for the main game. Stories that Bioware was previously well known for, but which are now the source of frustration by players and derision by critics.

The side content has become the MAIN content. And it likely is more and more becoming a business decision, as more fans seem to care more about the romances themselves than the actual main content of the game. And, as much as I wish Bioware would make a clear, concerted effort to make their stories the number one strength, I also can't blame them for following the money and desire of fans.

But it still is regrettable. 

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Saiphas85 wrote...

I think jimmy if you'd look historically with the possible exception of NWN, there has been a romance arc in every Bioware game going back to BG 2. It was in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and BG 2 before it was ever in ME or DAO. I'd say that romance is also something that attracted large portions of the fan base prior but until the creation of the BSN and its promotion, there was never a place for those to congregate.

I am well aware of Bioware's history, but it is not the PRESENCE of romance content that is the problem. It is the focus. And I could honestly care less about the BSN's penchant for attracting fans of one feature or another. 

It is the cost of putting more and more romance and romance content on games that I am concerned about. And how said romance content seems to (mysteriously!) accompany a trend in recent games that deliver unsatisfying stories for the main game. Stories that Bioware was previously well known for, but which are now the source of frustration by players and derision by critics.

The side content has become the MAIN content. And it likely is more and more becoming a business decision, as more fans seem to care more about the romances themselves than the actual main content of the game. And, as much as I wish Bioware would make a clear, concerted effort to make their stories the number one strength, I also can't blame them for following the money and desire of fans.

But it still is regrettable. 

But that's a pretty big assumption. How much do you think romances take away from the main story in terms of resources and how do you know for certain?

[Fast Jimmy]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I am well aware of Bioware's history, but it is not the PRESENCE of romance content that is the problem. It is the focus. And I could honestly care less about the BSN's penchant for attracting fans of one feature or another. 

It is the cost of putting more and more romance and romance content on games that I am concerned about. And how said romance content seems to (mysteriously!) accompany a trend in recent games that deliver unsatisfying stories for the main game. Stories that Bioware was previously well known for, but which are now the source of frustration by players and derision by critics.

The side content has become the MAIN content. And it likely is more and more becoming a business decision, as more fans seem to care more about the romances themselves than the actual main content of the game. And, as much as I wish Bioware would make a clear, concerted effort to make their stories the number one strength, I also can't blame them for following the money and desire of fans.

But it still is regrettable. 

But that's a pretty big assumption. How much do you think romances take away from the main story in terms of resources and how do you know for certain?

In DA:O, when the end occurs, we are given a cutscene showing the immediate results of killing the Archdemon. Then we are given the gathering in the hall, where we can meet with the king/queen of Ferelden, ask for a boon which affects the later slides and then talk with major NPCs (some of which are origin specific) as well as all remaining companions in your party. There is roughly a dozen people to talk to, all who have fully fleshed out dialogue that is reflective of your status with them and your actions in game. 

Then, afterwards, you are treated to an Epilogue Slide sequence which touches on not only major plot decisions, but also smaller ones, such as whether you borrowed the Green Sword and returned it to the brother and sister who owned it. These slides are extremely varied and quite detailed, allowing a player to have dozens of different combinations of endings, outside of their static choice of just doing the Dark Ritual or commiting the Ultimate Sacrifice. 

The amount of time, effort and sheer screen time of the endings DWARFS that of all the romances.

Compared with DA2's endings, which is the same generic story-book cutscene (with word changes in one or two places) and a "return to the present' that shows Casandra and Leliana, completely ignoring all player choice and any variation, even on the last choice the game gives you, Mage vs. Templar. 

Contrast that with the fact that there are multiple romances that reflect not just the "Friendship" path, but also a parallel path of Rivalry which results in even more content. 

Would the resources spent on romances, if they could be magically reapplied, have made the endings or main story line more coherent? I'm not sure. I don't think even the Bioware devs would know how to fully and completely answer that question - it is a "what might have been" scenario that they would be theorizing on, since that path wasn't taken.

But it is not the amount of RESOURCES that were devoted to the romances. It is the FOCUS of them. No romance content was left unfinished or rushed. There was not a side romance available with Varric that didn't make the cut in time and was tossed out. Aside from Varric, there was only Aveline and your sibling who couldn't be romanced. Aveline was likely because they had a plan to have here arc deal with courting/marrying Donnic. And incest is not a topic anyone wants to honestly address. So everyone else for whom there wasn't other plans was able to be engaged in a romance. Sheer percentage wise, we go from 36% of all companions in DA:O to 55% in DA2... and that's counting both siblings, despite the fact that one of them dies. If you count that as one character, this reaches 62% of all companions, nearly double the ratio of what was seen in DA:O.

Romance content seems to be something that is well-thought out in advance, has appropriate resources applied to it for completion, is properly tested and made sure it functions (someone earlier said their favorite playthrough was one where they romanced Fenris, Isabella and then Anders and the game had appropriate dialogue for that outcome). Yet the endings were one-dimensional, failed to take into account any player agency and did not provide an ounce of closure. Coupled with the fact that the main story arc was a hodge podge of events that hardly felt connected at all and it becomes clear: the main story is expendable. Its proper completion and explanation is something that is handled on the fly and is what is most likely to get cut to the bone. Meanwhile, romance arcs are well-planned, funded and allocated. 

So call me crazy for saying that their priorities are out of order... but it seems abundantly clear to me that this is the case.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 avril 2013 - 01:00 .

[TheJediSaint]

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

[Fast Jimmy]

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

[NovaBlastMarketing]

Maclimes wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I can safely say that romance will have no greater and no lesser place than in any of our recent titles.

 http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/371/index/14235800&lf=8

Yes they are worth  but   as per the quote  they will probebly stay at the quality they are now and  only be 5/6-10 

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

Actually, I think it's more a matter of the order that Bioware develops the game.   The endings were rushed becuase they were the last part to be developed.