198 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Romances are absolutely worthwhile, they give me greater insight into the characters that interest me.

If people aren't interested in romances, they don't have to do them. They're totally optional content, and not very substantive at that.

[Fast Jimmy]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

Actually, I think it's more a matter of the order that Bioware develops the game.   The endings were rushed becuase they were the last part to be developed.

The lack of a main plot that was cohrent and ended well? Rushed development. A combat system that focused entirely too much on action and wave mechanics instead of smart tactical design? Rushed development. Areas being reused over and over again? Rushed development. Save Import glitches that resulted in dead characters coming back to life? Rushed development. A leveling system that only required you to worry about two stats based on your class instead of giving a more varied approach to character build? Rushed development. An equipment system that wound up having a 2 Star Ring giving better stats than a 5 star one? Rushed development. Being unable to equip your companions with anything besides one extra suit of equipment? Rushed development.

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 avril 2013 - 01:17 .

[The Hierophant]

I hope the main antagonist/s of DA:I is/are given more dialogue and cutscenes in comparison to DA2's main antagonists. It seemed like Meredith, and Orsino were minimal in comparison to the romance centric dialogue and cutscenes.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 03 avril 2013 - 01:21 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The Hierophant wrote...

I hope the main antagonist/s of DA:I is/are given more dialogue and cutscenes in comparison to DA2's main antagonists. It seemed like Meredith, and Orsino were minimal in comparison to the romance centric dialogue and cutscenes.

The main antagonist should be your LI. Regardless of who you romance... they should automatically become the antagonist. 

Sexually transmitted villainary!

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Not without a hitch, at least for Merrill.  

[Fast Jimmy]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Not without a hitch, at least for Merrill.  

Fair enough... but, then again, according to the OP of that post:

WillardH wrote...

Sweet, as long as it didn't break her romance. Thanks.

After all... that's the important part!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 avril 2013 - 01:33 .

[The Hierophant]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I hope the main antagonist/s of DA:I is/are given more dialogue and cutscenes in comparison to DA2's main antagonists. It seemed like Meredith, and Orsino were minimal in comparison to the romance centric dialogue and cutscenes.

The main antagonist should be your LI. Regardless of who you romance... they should automatically become the antagonist. 

Sexually transmitted villainary!

Sounds nasty.

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Not without a hitch, at least for Merrill.  

Fair enough... but, then again, according to the OP of that post:

WillardH wrote...

Sweet, as long as it didn't break her romance. Thanks.

After all... that's the important part!

Romances are a priority for some players, no doubt.  I just don't think they're really that much or a priority for the developers.   I think the seemingly finished state of romances in DA2 was a result of the bulk of the romantic content beiging in Act 2, which was probably the tightest part of the game.

[Plaintiff]

krul2k wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Romances are absolutely worthwhile, they give me greater insight into the characters that interest me.

If people aren't interested in romances, they don't have to do them. They're totally optional content, and not very substantive at that.

optional content thats never rushed an is always done well, bah i let oyou read jimmys post he argues better than me anyhow

I've seen Fast Jimmy argue, believe me when I say it won't make a difference.

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Romances are absolutely worthwhile, they give me greater insight into the characters that interest me.

If people aren't interested in romances, they don't have to do them. They're totally optional content, and not very substantive at that.

optional content thats never rushed an is always done well, bah i let oyou read jimmys post he argues better than me anyhow

I've seen Fast Jimmy argue, believe me when I say it won't make a difference.

Don't be like that, Plantiff. I thought we had something special once.

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Yes.

Because a 'polished romance' is a few extra lines of dialogue. That's a lot less resource intensive than an entire third act.

[legbamel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

legbamel wrote...
Well, if the romances engage the fan base and engender this much discussion they must be doing something right. In the sense that it draws many people deeper into the world and thus encourages them to stay with the series and search for books/comics/T-shirts/what-have-you then I'd definitely say they're worth the investment.

Can't argue there. It makes too much business sense for Bioware to ever let go of their corner of the virtual escort service market.

<_<
Nice hyperbole you've go there.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Yes.

Because a 'polished romance' is a few extra lines of dialogue. That's a lot less resource intensive than an entire third act.

There is much more than "a few lines of dialouge." There is party banter, there is the actual dialogue, which occurs in multiple scenes, requiring multiple sets of animations. There is the sex scene. The pillow talk scene. The "we're going to die, what will we do if we make it out of this scene." There is all of the scenes that accompany the character's normal arc, but then with romance flairs. There is rivalry romance content, for those who like their romance rough.

Multiply that by five love interests. And then compare it to the number of times we had longer than a ten second conversation with Meredith or Orsino, or the number of options available to how anything in the end either played out or was wrapped up. 

And, again, it is not strictly a matter of one-to-one resources. It is the design focus that says "let's iron out all of this companion romance material first. We'll get to the climax of the game later (pun intended)."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 avril 2013 - 01:58 .

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

*snip*


There is much more than "a few lines of dialouge." There is party banter, there is the actual dialogue, which occurs in multiple scenes, requiring multiple sets of animations. There is the sex scene. The pillow talk scene. The "we're going to die, what will we do if we make it out of this scene." There is all of the scenes that accompany the character's normal arc, but then with romance flairs. There is rivalry romance content, for those who like their romance rough.

Multiply that by five love interests. And then compare it to the number of times we had longer than a ten second conversation with Meredith or Orsino, or the number of options available to how anything in the end either played out or was wrapped up. 

And, again, it is not strictly a matter of one-to-one resources. It is the design focus that says "let's iron out all of this companion romance material first. We'll get to the climax of the game later (pun intended)."

The vast majority of the romantic content that you mentioned happend in Act 2, which was far more polished then Act 3.

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Yes.

Because a 'polished romance' is a few extra lines of dialogue. That's a lot less resource intensive than an entire third act.

There is much more than "a few lines of dialouge." There is party banter, there is the actual dialogue, which occurs in multiple scenes, requiring multiple sets of animations. There is the sex scene. The pillow talk scene. The "we're going to die, what will we do if we make it out of this scene." There is all of the scenes that accompany the character's normal arc, but then with romance flairs. There is rivalry romance content, for those who like their romance rough.

Multiply that by five love interests. And then compare it to the number of times we had longer than a ten second conversation with Meredith or Orsino, or the number of options available to how anything in the end either played out or was wrapped up. 

And, again, it is not strictly a matter of one-to-one resources. It is the design focus that says "let's iron out all of this companion romance material first. We'll get to the climax of the game later (pun intended)."

Well, I'm quite fine with eliminating rivalry romances, if that would help any. However, the Orsino thing wasn't the fault of resource issues, but of some idiot wanting another boss battle. And I never felt like the ending deprived me of choice, in particular.

The lack of a main plot that was cohrent and ended well? Rushed
development. A combat system that focused entirely too much on action
and wave mechanics instead of smart tactical design? Rushed development.
Areas being reused over and over again? Rushed development. Save Import
glitches that resulted in dead characters coming back to life? Rushed
development. A leveling system that only required you to worry about two
stats based on your class instead of giving a more varied approach to
character build? Rushed development. An equipment system that wound up
having a 2 Star Ring giving better stats than a 5 star one? Rushed
development. Being unable to equip your companions with anything besides
one extra suit of equipment? Rushed development.

Not all of these were rushed development. Some were deliberate choices that you just didn't happen to like (several of which I liked just fine). Bugs happen regardless of development time; look at DAO. In fact, I think only the plot ending and reused areas were really a result of rushed development.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 avril 2013 - 02:04 .

[Fast Jimmy]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

*snip*


There is much more than "a few lines of dialouge." There is party banter, there is the actual dialogue, which occurs in multiple scenes, requiring multiple sets of animations. There is the sex scene. The pillow talk scene. The "we're going to die, what will we do if we make it out of this scene." There is all of the scenes that accompany the character's normal arc, but then with romance flairs. There is rivalry romance content, for those who like their romance rough.

Multiply that by five love interests. And then compare it to the number of times we had longer than a ten second conversation with Meredith or Orsino, or the number of options available to how anything in the end either played out or was wrapped up. 

And, again, it is not strictly a matter of one-to-one resources. It is the design focus that says "let's iron out all of this companion romance material first. We'll get to the climax of the game later (pun intended)."

The vast majority of the romantic content that you mentioned happend in Act 2, which was far more polished then Act 3.

And was the wave combat utilized in all three acts made up at the end of development? Was the equipment system? Was the fact that the same caves were used for nearly every quest and encounter?

It seems like the rushed development cycle is seen in many more places than Act 3. It is just that the main story concerns me more. I can get over poor mechanics if the story is engaging and has lots of variable content. When it is not is when my jimmies get rustled.

[legbamel]

I consider DA2 as having a set ending not because they spent too much time fleshing out the inter-character banter and relationships but because they had an ending in mind and that's where they wanted you. They had to do something with all of those people in the meantime. If they were all as powerless as they seem to have been the most they could do was interact with each other and kill a bunch of bandits and Qunari.

BioWare wanted to set a stage and they did. Whether or not you're a fan of the props, you see what they wanted you to see as they enter the scenes where DA:I begins. Blaming romance and companion interaction for that doesn't change the fact that Anders was damned well going to do what he did no matter what your Hawke did because that was what the story demanded he do. That was the whole point of DA2: no matter what Hawke does, that train is rolling.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

krul2k wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Romances are absolutely worthwhile, they give me greater insight into the characters that interest me.

If people aren't interested in romances, they don't have to do them. They're totally optional content, and not very substantive at that.

optional content thats never rushed an is always done well, bah i let oyou read jimmys post he argues better than me anyhow

I've seen Fast Jimmy argue, believe me when I say it won't make a difference.

Don't be like that, Plantiff. I thought we had something special once.

Characters have always been Bioware's strength and main draw, with setting being a close second, now that they develop their own IPs. "Coherent narrative"? Not so much. DA:O, the Mass Effect Trilogy and all the Bioware games that predate those have followed an extremely conventional narrative form. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's easy to do coherently once you have the knowing of it, which any professional writer should. Anyone can write a "coherent" story, kindergarteners can do it. Just because a plot is "coherent" doesn't mean it's good or even interesting.

DA2's narrative (which, by the way, I maintain is still very, very good, miles better than most of the crap out there) is flawed largely because of its experimental nature. Time restraints may have contributed, but ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that they were trying something they hadn't really done before, and that isn't done very often in games generally.

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

*snip*

And was the wave combat utilized in all three acts made up at the end of development? Was the equipment system? Was the fact that the same caves were used for nearly every quest and encounter?

It seems like the rushed development cycle is seen in many more places than Act 3. It is just that the main story concerns me more. I can get over poor mechanics if the story is engaging and has lots of variable content. When it is not is when my jimmies get rustled.

From what I recall from the developer interviews, the wave-based combat was a deliberate design decision to resove the problem of people being able to just nuke encounters in one shot in DAO.   

And I don't think romances would've had much affect on the reuse of areas.  None of the romantic content required much in the way of level building.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 02:07 .

[Sundance31us]

In ME yes. In DA...romancing Alistair was fun, but no carry over when you're playing a new character each time. DA2...most are too dysfunctional and Varric wasn't an option....my Hawk ended up being a faithful client of the Blooming Rose.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

Actually, I think it's more a matter of the order that Bioware develops the game.   The endings were rushed becuase they were the last part to be developed.

The lack of a main plot that was cohrent and ended well? Rushed development. A combat system that focused entirely too much on action and wave mechanics instead of smart tactical design? Rushed development. Areas being reused over and over again? Rushed development. Save Import glitches that resulted in dead characters coming back to life? Rushed development. A leveling system that only required you to worry about two stats based on your class instead of giving a more varied approach to character build? Rushed development. An equipment system that wound up having a 2 Star Ring giving better stats than a 5 star one? Rushed development. Being unable to equip your companions with anything besides one extra suit of equipment? Rushed development.

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Most of the stuff you brought up has little or nothing to do with gameplay and were just bad decisions made during the development of that game. You're jumping to conclusions. None of us know how many resources go into the romances.

I think the romances feel cheap and tacked on. Maybe Bioware does romances because it attracts a certain audience who otherwise wouldn't touch their games. Or maybe they enjoy doing them, I don't know. But that isn't the point. I've seen the devs on here comment on how many resources go into romances and they all say "not much." I tend to believe them since they are such a small part of the game.

[Angrywolves]

Finished state of the romances in DA2. rotfl. The DA2 romances were awful. imo. Heck that game might have been better without any simply because they could have used the time to improve something else. There are going to be romances in DAI. The people who don't want them might as well accept it or find other rpgs to play.

[Fast Jimmy]

DA2's narrative (which, by the way, I maintain is still very, very good, miles better than most of the crap out there) is flawed largely because of its experimental nature. Time restraints may have contributed, but ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that they were trying something they hadn't really done before, and that isn't done very often in games generally.

DA2's main story was not experimental. It was your standard trope of rags-to-riches story that is then subverted by the "crown is heavy" dilemma Hawke faces by having his problems compounded after reaching the rank of Champion of Kirkwall, finding that his largest problem (anders actions) is one of his own doing.

This all sounds remarkably like this brand new piece of literature that came out... its called Beowulf? Its the newest rage. Fresh off the presses.


Bioware's experience with said narrative style is, as you pointed out, rather limited. So it was experimental in that regard. But instead of using this new approach and making sure it accommodated core principles like player agency, pacing and proper engagement, they instead completely ignored entire premises on why their old formula worked - mainly because it met and solved these issues by its format alone.

You can deviate from that formula, but you must realize that you have to compensate the new format to provide this, or else your video game RPG story is going to seem disjointed, railroaded and boring.




All of that aside, as we said in the pee-wee leagues: Scoreboard. For the last two Bioware releases, it reads - Romances: 2, Main Story: 0. According to the alleged Patrick Weekes post in the ME3 aftermath, the endings for ME3 were figured out and determined over a weekend between Casey Hudson and Mac Walters with no peer review and in the 11th hour. I can only imagine the DA2 ending had more forethought and planning than that, but it still pales in comparison to the genius format of the endings of DA:O.

Meanwhile, ME3 allows you to have sex with an IGN cross-promotional pin-up girl and DA2 gives you two ways (Friendship/Rivalry) to romance the same character. Four, if you want to count the small acknowledgements of same sex/hetero-sexual pairings.

So where is the focus here? Really?

[Fast Jimmy]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

Actually, I think it's more a matter of the order that Bioware develops the game.   The endings were rushed becuase they were the last part to be developed.

The lack of a main plot that was cohrent and ended well? Rushed development. A combat system that focused entirely too much on action and wave mechanics instead of smart tactical design? Rushed development. Areas being reused over and over again? Rushed development. Save Import glitches that resulted in dead characters coming back to life? Rushed development. A leveling system that only required you to worry about two stats based on your class instead of giving a more varied approach to character build? Rushed development. An equipment system that wound up having a 2 Star Ring giving better stats than a 5 star one? Rushed development. Being unable to equip your companions with anything besides one extra suit of equipment? Rushed development.

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Most of the stuff you brought up has little or nothing to do with gameplay and were just bad decisions made during the development of that game. You're jumping to conclusions. None of us know how many resources go into the romances.

I think the romances feel cheap and tacked on. Maybe Bioware does romances because it attracts a certain audience who otherwise wouldn't touch their games. Or maybe they enjoy doing them, I don't know. But that isn't the point. I've seen the devs on here comment on how many resources go into romances and they all say "not much." I tend to believe them since they are such a small part of the game.

But again... it is not about the one-to-one resource cost. All of the things I mentioned are either gameplay features that weren't properly developed and fleshed out, or were poor design choices to begin with and were not given enough time under the microscope for the (now) obvious flaws to be examined.

It is about the focus. The romances worked fine. Their multiple scenes and overall interaction with the rest of the game was near-flawless. They had enough thought into them so that they can cover all their sexual desire bases - "From virginal girl next-door to crazy up against the wall, let's have it on right here" - that they can say for sure the romances of the characters and their personalities were designed with a wide range of sexual appeal options. 

The focus is hard to contend with. When a great number of areas, plot and mechanics wise, come up short, but romances come out the other side smelling like roses, which one do you think was given the royal treatment?