198 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think the abrupt ending of DA2 was more a result of the game's rushed development than because of resources being diverted to romances.

The rushed development did not hurt the amount nor the existence of romances in DA2. So, when the chips are down and development time is crunched, is it more important to Bioware to polish the romances than write a coherent third and final act?

Again... it is not a matter of the resources being applied, it is a matter of the focus Bioware takes when making said romances. 

Actually, I think it's more a matter of the order that Bioware develops the game.   The endings were rushed becuase they were the last part to be developed.

The lack of a main plot that was cohrent and ended well? Rushed development. A combat system that focused entirely too much on action and wave mechanics instead of smart tactical design? Rushed development. Areas being reused over and over again? Rushed development. Save Import glitches that resulted in dead characters coming back to life? Rushed development. A leveling system that only required you to worry about two stats based on your class instead of giving a more varied approach to character build? Rushed development. An equipment system that wound up having a 2 Star Ring giving better stats than a 5 star one? Rushed development. Being unable to equip your companions with anything besides one extra suit of equipment? Rushed development.

Romances going off without a hitch as being fully complete and what a number of people say is their favorite content in the game? Pure coincidence.

Seems legit.

Most of the stuff you brought up has little or nothing to do with gameplay and were just bad decisions made during the development of that game. You're jumping to conclusions. None of us know how many resources go into the romances.

I think the romances feel cheap and tacked on. Maybe Bioware does romances because it attracts a certain audience who otherwise wouldn't touch their games. Or maybe they enjoy doing them, I don't know. But that isn't the point. I've seen the devs on here comment on how many resources go into romances and they all say "not much." I tend to believe them since they are such a small part of the game.

But again... it is not about the one-to-one resource cost. All of the things I mentioned are either gameplay features that weren't properly developed and fleshed out, or were poor design choices to begin with and were not given enough time under the microscope for the (now) obvious flaws to be examined.

It is about the focus. The romances worked fine. Their multiple scenes and overall interaction with the rest of the game was near-flawless. They had enough thought into them so that they can cover all their sexual desire bases - "From virginal girl next-door to crazy up against the wall, let's have it on right here" - that they can say for sure the romances of the characters and their personalities were designed with a wide range of sexual appeal options. 

The focus is hard to contend with. When a great number of areas, plot and mechanics wise, come up short, but romances come out the other side smelling like roses, which one do you think was given the royal treatment?

If we assume that Bioware is telling the truth, the romances don't require a huge amount of resources and time to plan out and finish. Remember, most of it is dialogue. I think the majority of their focus went towards actual gameplay like combat.

[Angrywolves]

Romances near flawless ?Ugh, well to each his own I guess. I still say they were awful compared to the romaces in DAO.

[Renmiri1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Saiphas85 wrote...

I think jimmy if you'd look historically with the possible exception of NWN, there has been a romance arc in every Bioware game going back to BG 2. It was in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and BG 2 before it was ever in ME or DAO. I'd say that romance is also something that attracted large portions of the fan base prior but until the creation of the BSN and its promotion, there was never a place for those to congregate.

I am well aware of Bioware's history, but it is not the PRESENCE of romance content that is the problem. It is the focus. And I could honestly care less about the BSN's penchant for attracting fans of one feature or another. 

It is the cost of putting more and more romance and romance content on games that I am concerned about. And how said romance content seems to (mysteriously!) accompany a trend in recent games that deliver unsatisfying stories for the main game. Stories that Bioware was previously well known for, but which are now the source of frustration by players and derision by critics.

The side content has become the MAIN content. And it likely is more and more becoming a business decision, as more fans seem to care more about the romances themselves than the actual main content of the game. And, as much as I wish Bioware would make a clear, concerted effort to make their stories the number one strength, I also can't blame them for following the money and desire of fans.

But it still is regrettable. 

I don't think you ever worked at a fortune 500 company,am I right ?

I worked at some of them. Cuttoff time for a project over budget / delayed happens and cuts what is not done. DA2 got the axe at Act 3 and it really shows. Should devs and writers go back to Act 2 and rip apart all the content that was there to make them comparable and you happy about balance of Act 2 content compared to endings ? Romance on Act 3 was shortened as much as endings. There was no "pillow talk" that took the place of your fabulous endings, there was an Act 2 that took longer and costed more than EA was prepared to allow and when they send the "Finish this **** now" order down below, EVERYTHING was cut.

Sure, a time machine would have been handy to go back and remake the entire game balanced and all the pillow talk time equal to ending time. Alas Thedas is magic but we are not...

If you want to blame something for your endings not being what you like, I would blame project management or EA greed. You can of course, keep on blaming the parts of the game you don't care about but I prefer living on reality, not on make believe words. I go on make believe words for entertainment only 

If you want to see the decision process that sinks or ships a game, this is a very interesting article about a game that blew up budget and deadlines and was pulled off before shipping. By EA. Now read that and think about Bioware having 99% of Act 2 done and just 10% of Act 3 started and getting the "ship this **** now" call from the same guy who cancelled this NBA game and you will understand why the game was shipped the way it was. Romance had nothing to do with it. Greed and bad project management did.  (And yes, economy and stock market valuation factor in the EA rush to ship, no matter how many blind eyes you turn to them). You might want to remember DAO and ME1 were DEVELOPED during a good time for EA, the stock took a big tumble after both games went "gold" (ready to ship).

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 03:55 .

[Angrywolves]

The guy at EA who forced Bioware to rush DA2 should have been demoted or fired imo. The presence of romances , as poorly thought out and implimented as they were in DA2 , had nothing to do with the game's other issues.

[Renmiri1]

He was "volunteered" to resign recently 


I think under his tenure EA was cutting corners with games way too much, if you read the linked article they were ready to ship a game where your controller and the ball moved but the basketball player on the game didn't. Can you believe anyone would consider this a game ready to master (record the sellable game CDs) ?

They cut things too close for several games. This NBA one was cancelled, wisely because EA would forever be the laughing stock of the industry but I can clearly see the same cut corners and rush job on other EA games and Bioware games. ME3, DA2 and Sim City didn't happen in a vaccuum. They came from a company that left way too much to the last minute - or lied to itself internally way too much about realistic times to develop new games. It shows.

It reminds me of an industry tale about a toy company who won a bid to export 3 million packets of 1 dozen toys to Saudi Arabia, in like 6 months. Come month 5 and they are nowhere near the required 3 million packets so the "genius" CEO decides to ... pack each "dozen" packet with 11 toys, therefore making it possible to have 3 million packets by the deadline.
Long story short, Saudi Arabia received the "dozen" packets and figured out the ruse. They refused the shipment, obviously. That company hasn't been able to ship anything to Saudi Arabia ever since and the contract was null and void. But the entire state was also barred from selling anything to the Saudis and took a few years of diplomatic dealings to fix things...

Alas we gamers get our packets half full and are forced to accept it as the full monty. I agree with Jimmy, it is a shame and very regrettable. I just don't think blaming unrelated stuff is going to work to fix it.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 04:18 .

[Enigmatick]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

Of course they're worth it. That's the only way I can get a boyfriend. So I depend on these romances or else I'll be alone forever and ever....

If I were asked to describe the current fanbase of BIoware using one only forum post, this would be it. 

[Renmiri1]

Enigmatick wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...

Of course they're worth it. That's the only way I can get a boyfriend. So I depend on these romances or else I'll be alone forever and ever....

If I were asked to describe the current fanbase of BIoware using one only forum post, this would be it. 

lol

You know, those people that say "everyone fallling in love with the player is unrealistic" are the ones who are used to rejection and no BF / GF. And usually they hate in game romance because it doesn't feel real to them. No **** sherlock! If you have the looks of a nug, the physique of a pyjak and the personality of a slug, you aren't going to get anyone wanting you in RL so yah, the gorgeous guys and gals fawning all over you in game will feel unreal.

We who are used to many people falling in love with us and chasing us non stop find Bioware games very realistic. Everyone does the same as Isabella and Anders did to Hawke in my RL 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 04:25 .

[C9316]

No they seem good at first, but suck you dry of all that you are and leave you to find their next victim. Kinda like a succubus...

[Dominus]

So what is your take do you not mind if the romances return or do you want to see the love of your Warden and Hawkes life again.

I personally wouldn't mind if they didn't come back, but chances are quite high that DA:I will have romantic elements to them. I'd be taken aghast if they had the guts to outright remove it.

[ObserverStatus]

Hell yeah romances are worth it, my Warden had sexy time with a hot Desire Demon, and all he had to do in return was promise her the soul of that apostate brat from Redcliffe.

Modifié par bobobo878, 03 avril 2013 - 04:31 .

[SilentK]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

So, what exactly do you disagree with?

Bolded: That's very interesting. So, you don't care about the games themselves, just the digital relationships and all the drama that goes along with it? What you really want is a digital soap opera that you can participate in and control, am I right?

Well, it is that or she enjoys the story aspects while you enjoy stick figures batling and that is all there is to your gaming experience.

Bellitling others because you have no idea what moves them is not nice. Nor brings any understanding.

I wasn't. She said she woudn't buy the game if the romances weren't included. That leads me to believe that she doesn't care about the rest of it. I'm just trying to get some clarification.

Having one aspect of a game that means a lot to you =/= the rest of the game is meaningless

* I really enjoy playing a female character, so I prefer to do that. If I couldn't play a female Shepard I don't think I would have spent as much time replaying my Mass Effect games as I have done. Would have seen it once or twice, and I still would have enjoyed my fav class engineer. But not having a female character means I would at some time move on to another game that gave that to me. Doesn't mean I still don't love my combat-drones and turrets
* I really enjoy companion-convos in SWTOR, unfortunately you won't see them in Makeb. It's ok for me this time but if this continues then I might just leave. I want interaction with my crew. Does not mean that I hold no interest in the rest of the game. Love my JK, Force leap is wonderful. PvP with my scoundre-healer is really nice. Just started a trooper and love the fact that is J Hale who voices her and vanguard-tanking is so much fun.

People have little things that means a lot to them personally, doesn't mean that the rest of the game is meaningless.

[The Night Haunter]

Yes

[Jonathan28]

Renmiri1 wrote...


We who are used to many people falling in love with us and chasing us non stop find Bioware games very realistic. Everyone does the same as Isabella and Anders did to Hawke in my RL 

I can count on less then one hand the people I know who have many people falling in love with them at once, it is not common at all, it borders on the extremely rare. Even then, I wouldn't call it love, more like lusting after them. The vast majority of people will never get option of handpicking any man/woman they want like Shepard and Hawke can due to their status, so yes, it is very unrealistic for most people. Having characters turn gay for you is also bloody ridiculous. 

Modifié par Jonathan28, 03 avril 2013 - 11:36 .

[Blazingkats]

Yes its worth it.

[BouncyFrag]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...

Of course they're worth it. That's the only way I can get a boyfriend. So I depend on these romances or else I'll be alone forever and ever....

If I were asked to describe the current fanbase of BIoware using one only forum post, this would be it. 

 


Haha, yep. Exactly. 

Obligatory:
http://pbs.twimg.com...A7RNg.jpg:thumb

[wright1978]

Of course they are worth it

[grumpymooselion]

Above someone mentions actual gameplay as being combat. It's an interesting thing to note. What if dialogue and romances were developed as, and treated like gameplay? Something of actual challenge that had to be thought out, rather than being a matter of personal preference? I bring this up because I do know there are games that focus almost completely on dialogue, and others that focus entirely around romance as a mechanic rather than as simply a character branch to explore.

I'm never sure about what to think about romances in games, really, but I bring this up by noting there are 'dating games' of a sort out there, that, apparently, treat their subject matter as gameplay. We often hear about tactical combat, that you have to think about and plan out in real time and so on in games . . . I'm curious what a game would look like if you were to say the same things about its dialogue and romance option.

Not really a request or a demand, more just a wondering, since romances are so often debated and dismissed as, 'that thing that isn't actual gameplay' because, really, what if it was gameplay? What if it were challenging and thought provoking? What if your decisions really mattered? What if romance was more than about sex or love, but a matter of political intrigue in some cases a game in and of itself, political maneuvering and such.

I suppose it's the sort of thing that's easier to think about as a concept, and much harder to actually do justice, especially tastefully, in an actual gameplay sense. Still, I can't help but wonder.

[Renmiri1]

No single player combat will ever be challenging enough to compete with PVP / MP. MMO raiding and co op. So all the elitist snobs here that try to pass "combat" as the Holy Grail of "gameplay" here on DA forums just earn my scorn.

There simply isn't an AI good enough yet to compete with a live person behind the enemy weapon. And live persons on your side messing up or working in tandem to down a boss, a wave, etc... All this talk about "combat" in singleplay is just nonsense. Anyone who is hardcore on combat plays MP/ co-op, MMO or PVP. The rest are just posers trying to claim holier than though hardcore badarseness while holding a plastic toy gun.

Hilarious to me but then I raided hardcore, competed in arena PVP and know what real gaming combat looks like. And I don't play singleplayers for it. NO ONE DOES, unless they have no clue about combat. I play it for the story and roleplay. Because right now is very hard to find any good RP / story on any online MP game out there.

You wanna seee hardcore combat gameplay ? Try raiding 20 hours / day for 2 weeks, to - maybe - down a boss and be first in the world. Come back to me when you have ever spent 1/1,000th of that in your piddly singleplayer "insanity mode" and I may listen to your combat boasting. Before that ? Please child, run along go play with the other kids on the swingset...

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 09:48 .

[imbs]

no single player combat will ever be challenging enough to compete with MMO raiding? Do people actually believe that?

hardcore gameplay? Maybe in time spent but aside from that it's actually a joke. Unless you are top 20 guild in the world your individual skill is close to irrelevant.

citing MMO raiding in an attempt to look down on other gamers is actually hilarious. Anyone decent at games at all knows it doesnt even remotely compare to most MP games. I have played against these so call hardcore raiders in the old arena back in WOTLK. The only thing those high end raiders had in common was how utterly carried by PVE trinkets and legendaries they were.

[Renmiri1]

imbs wrote...

 it doesnt even remotely compare to most MP games.  

Thanks for agreeing with me

MP >>>>>>>>>>> SP

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 avril 2013 - 09:56 .

[Renmiri1]

PS: You may want to try noticing I forgot to include Starcraft and other RTS games next time. Just twisting my words to pretend I wasn't comparing a game with other people to single player games is way too easy..

[imbs]

No single player combat will ever be challenging enough to compete with PVP / MP. MMO raiding and co op

Except here you are talking about them in the same breath. The actual truth is that co op and MMO raiding are right over there with single player combat, except single player combat has higher potential for difficulty; it just doesn't happen in modern AAA games.