438 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, even without the Quickening, that's sort of true, in that elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction.

Only in the same way that human + asari parings would. But if anyone suggested that ME3 humans do everything possible to violently shut out the asari to maintain a pure humanity and asked that we consider human + asari couples as being the equivalent of a path to human extinction, I (hope) people would be (very) troubled. 

Not to mention that this is a notion where we start with the assumption of racial purity. Maric and Fiona aren't about to start the genocide of all elves everywhere by having a child. Or two, for that matter.

So there's absolutely no sensible way that this is true unless you start from some very, very troubling assumptions. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'd wager Xil is against elven extinction.

Being against elven extinction is very different from being pro racial purity.

Also, the elves wanted to restore their culture and their immortality after earning their homeland

If the elves wanted to maintain a racially pure stake of genetic ubermensch, that's quite different from reclaiming their culture. It would be one thing if the elves had any, you know, actual proof or evidence that they ever were (i) immortal; (ii) lost that immortality; (iii) had it caused by proximity to humans. 

You'll have to excuse those of us who think that the elves deserved to right to worship the Creators without the Chantry trying to force their religion on the elven people.

No, no, see, this is what got people all worked up, the stuff about the inherent superiority of the elves and the need to maintain their genetic purity from contact with human contaminants (literally, because we acutally got human-aids analogies at one point):

And all die of the Quickening

And all die of the Quickening. That issue needs to be solved, one way or the other. But, if necessary, the qunari can be stopped before turning on Orlais

Well, if diplomatic relations consist largely of saying that [b] your whole civilization is doomed to oblivion [b] and that you have an obligation to abandon your own religion in favor of someone else's, then... yes, yes it is.

Because of the aforementioned Quickening issues. The humans should have understood.

Modifié par In Exile, 09 avril 2013 - 12:54 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except for the fact that everyone on this planet is human, while elves will literally become extinct if elven men and women don't procreate with one another.

Except for the fact that the wacko racists that actually believe that think that "races" actually mean something more than just some phenotypic presentation of features and pigments. 

There's no reason to thing that being "elven" is anything other than just that, unless you start from the presumption that there is a kind of racial purity at issue. 

[Plaintiff]

What the elves believe is irrelevent. Let them think that they're inherently superior to humanity, let them eschew diplomatic relations. They can think whatever they want, as long as they don't try to murder anyone over it.

Wanting to be left alone is not a crime.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Well, even without the Quickening, that's sort of true, in that elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction.[/quote]

Only in the same way that human + asari parings would. But if anyone suggested that ME3 humans do everything possible to violently shut out the asari to maintain a pure humanity and asked that we consider human + asari couples as being the equivalent of a path to human extinction, I (hope) people would be (very) troubled. [/quote]
Except Xil's point is that elves and humans produce human children, which the developers have said may be the result of something magical - not scientific. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
I imagine some might not have a problem with the extinction of the elven people, given the racist attitude many hold towards the elves. I recall the reason for their isolation was that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality and restore their culture while rebuffing the Chantry's attempts at conversion and the advances of the Orlesian Empire.
[quote]In Exile wrote...

Not to mention that this is a notion where we start with the assumption of racial purity. Maric and Fiona aren't about to start the genocide of all elves everywhere by having a child. Or two, for that matter. [/quote]
I recall Feynriel being accepted into the Sabrae Clan by Keeper Marethari.
[quote]In Exile wrote...

So there's absolutely no sensible way that this is true unless you start from some very, very troubling assumptions. [/quote]
It's true in the sense that the offspring of elves and humans produce humans. You're forgetting that this is fantasy, not science fiction. The developers have said there may be a magical reason for why this union produces human offspring.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'd wager Xil is against elven extinction. [/quote]

Being against elven extinction is very[/b] different from being pro racial purity.[/quote]
Being against the elimination of the elven people isn't the same as being against every human and elven coupling, and Xil has had Wardens with Leliana, so you might want to try a different retort to her statements.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, the elves wanted to restore their culture and their immortality after earning their homeland [/quote]

If the elves wanted to maintain a racially pure stake of genetic ubermensch, that's quite different from reclaiming their culture. [/quote]
The elves of the Dales didn't want to lose their culture and religion to a human empire that wanted to force them to give up the Creators for the Maker.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
It would be one thing if the elves had any, you know, actual proof or evidence that they ever were (i) immortal; (ii) lost that immortality; (iii) had it caused by proximity to humans. [/quote]
Aside from the developers acknowledging that the Dalish live longer lives than their city brethren, who mentioned the generations of elves who had no contact with humans lived longer and longer lives? It's a possibility that could turn out to be true.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You'll have to excuse those of us who think that the elves deserved to right to worship the Creators without the Chantry trying to force their religion on the elven people. [/quote]
No, no, see, this is what got people all worked up, the stuff about the inherent superiority of the elves and the need to maintain their genetic purity from contact with human contaminants (literally, because we acutally got human-aids analogies at one point):

And all die of the Quickening[/i]

And all die of the Quickening. That issue needs to be solved, one way or the other. But, if necessary, the qunari can be stopped before turning on Orlais[/i]

Well, if diplomatic relations consist largely of saying that [b] your whole civilization is doomed to oblivion [b] and that you have an obligation to abandon your own religion in favor of someone else's, then... yes, yes it is.[/i]

Because of the aforementioned Quickening issues. The humans should have understood.[/i]
[/quote]
So you're upset Xil would prefer to help the elves stand on their own two feet, rather than force them to submit to humanity?

[In Exile]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

What the elves believe is irrelevent. Let them think that they're inherently superior to humanity, let them eschew diplomatic relations. They can think whatever they want, as long as they don't try to murder anyone over it.

Wanting to be left alone is not a crime.
[/quote]

The debate is whether the elves were justified to retaliate with deadly force to attempted Chantry proselytizing. The funny thing is, I agree that given Orlesian (and Andrastian) attitudes to elven culture that a forceful approach (up to and including proportional physical violence) is entirely justified. The elves most certainly have a (moral) claim to their culture and to protecting it. 

But once the narrative switches to elven racial superirity, humans as "contaminants" and the need to segrgate elves and humasn to keep them elves racially pure ... 

... Well, my ":blink::(" metre breaks.

[quote]Except Xil's point is that elves and humans produce human children, which the developers have said may be the result of something magical - not scientific. You're comparing apples and oranges here. [/quote]

Oh, boy. First off, let's play a game. Research "natural magic". Here is a helpful wikipedia blurb:

[quote]Natural magic[/b] in the context of Renaissance magic is that part of the occult which deals with natural forces directly, as opposed to ceremonial magic, in particular goety and theurgy, which deals with the summoning of spirits. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa so uses the term in his 1526 de vanitate[/i]. Natural magic so defined thus includes astrology, alchemy, and disciplines that we would today consider fields of natural science, such as astronomy and chemistry (which developed and diverged from astrology and alchemy, respectively, into the modern sciences they are today) orbotany (herbology). [/quote]

Notice how, helpfully, the assumption that the causal sources are "magic" rather than "mechanical" isn't at all important to a field of study that, effectively, look at causes to describe them in formal terms? 

There is no meaningful distinction between "magic" and "science" insofar as you're talking about causal mechanisms. If there a set of rules and process that govern how the process works - if there's a mechanism then what you have is the functional analogy to science. 

But this is just for your edification (like the lesson on what "preponderance of evidence" means below). Whatever the process is at isssue, it doesn't matter, because your justification is still offensive because of how laden it is with concepts like "racial purity". 

[quote]I imagine some might not have a problem with the extinction of the elven people, given the racist attitude many hold towards the elves. [/quote]

Not to jump at shadows... but you do see the irony of accusing people of racism while you're praising the racial virtues of elves and advocating for a pureblood elf state free from human contamination to create a race of ubermensch? Right? You see how this is really creepy?

[quote]I recall the reason for their isolation was that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality and restore their culture while rebuffing the Chantry's attempts at conversion and the advances of the Orlesian Empire. [/quote]

I recall that, as a moral point, unproven claims about racial purity and genetic superity fall right on the "completely unhinged whackjob" side of the scale when it comes to "things that it is morally OK to kill for". But maybe that's because I'm Jewish. 

[quote]I recall Feynriel being accepted into the Sabrae Clan by Keeper Marethari. [/quote]

You mean, a human-elf child can willingly adopt elf culture, and be considered a dalish elf? And have a talent that's all but legendary among the elves? And that what makes elves "elvhen" is their culture, and not skin pigment, physiological features, or some unfounded belief in their racial and genetic superiority? 

... No, I'm hoping for too much, aren't I?

[quote]It's true in the sense that the offspring of elves and humans produce humans. You're forgetting that this is fantasy, not science fiction. The developers have said there may be a magical reason for why this union produces human offspring. [/quote]

It doesn't matter. What makes the idea racist and offensive is the implication that if an elven person dares not to reproduce with an elf, he or she is somehow "polutting" their pure genetic stock and leading their race to extiction. I'm not sure how many other ways I can stake this to get across just how really creepy this idea is.  

[quote]Being against the elimination of the elven people isn't the same as being against every human and elven coupling[/quote]

I know, because that's what I said. I wasn't the one who brought up that half-elvens looking human somehow means that Elves will go extinct, or justified elven isolation on the basis of, again, keeping the stock racially pure because the children look more human than elven. 

[quote]The elves of the Dales didn't want to lose their culture and religion to a human empire that wanted to force them to give up the Creators for the Maker. [/quote]

I'm not objected to a perfectly legitimate reason to what to defend one's culture. Go elves, really. Punch Orlais straight in the nuts for being imperalist and trying to destroy the few shreds left of your culture after your people were broken and enslaved. 

But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority (read: immortality) that would be pulluted by (i) the mere presence of humans (because humans magically make you mortal) or (ii) pairing with humans (because O-M-G your children will look physiologically human so the race is plunging toward extinction!)

[quote]Aside from the developers acknowledging that the Dalish live longer lives than their city brethren[/quote]

The Americans live longer than Romanian , but you don't see anyone claimaint that proves the Americans are immortal. Because, you know, that would be completely insane and fly in the face of everything we know about how the world works. 

[quote], who mentioned the generations of elves who had no contact with humans lived longer and longer lives? [/quote]

The proof we have of that is Zathrian, who used bloodmagic. And lots of humans live quite long lives - Avernus lived for centuries, sucking the life out of a few humans, and he had to deal with the taint that kills humans way before their natural lifespan. Who knows how long people could live with bloodmagic!

[quote]It's a possibility that could turn out to be true. [/quote]

That's not how evidence works! Again, it's "a possibility" that a hermaprodite "magic" interdimensional space lizard created planet Earth to prove to seven headed flying cat from another dimension that bad things happening to good people is funny, but that doesn't mean that this "possibility" is something that any shred of evidence supports/points to.

To use the the thing you hate, it's a "possibility" that the Maker exists, but that doesn't justify Orlais breaking down the gates and forcibly converting every single elf. 

[quote]So you're upset Xil would prefer to help the elves stand on their own two feet, rather than force them to submit to humanity?[/quote]

I.... what... .do you even.... 

How do you go from: "the stuff about the inherent superiority of the elves and the need to maintain their genetic purity from contact with human contaminants" to "you're upset Xil would prefer to help the elves stand on their own two feet, rather than force them to submit to humanity" 

I just want to understand by what process your mind looks at words and sentences and parses ther meaning, because I can't for the life of me see how B follows A here. 

Modifié par In Exile, 09 avril 2013 - 02:30 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

What the elves believe is irrelevent. Let them think that they're inherently superior to humanity, let them eschew diplomatic relations. They can think whatever they want, as long as they don't try to murder anyone over it.

Wanting to be left alone is not a crime.

spot on.

[Xilizhra]

Only in the same way that human + asari parings would. But if anyone suggested that ME3 humans do everything possible to violently shut out the asari to maintain a pure humanity and asked that we consider human + asari couples as being the equivalent of a path to human extinction, I (hope) people would be (very) troubled.

Both races have populations in the trillions, asari have many other species to mate with besides humans, and neither race has explicit power over the other. The situations are wholly different.

But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority (read: immortality) that would be pulluted by (i) the mere presence of humans (because humans magically make you mortal) or (ii) pairing with humans (because O-M-G your children will look physiologically human so the race is plunging toward extinction!)

To be frank, elves and humans shouldn't be able to have reproductively viable offspring. They're different species, as much as dwarves are. The fact that they can seems to be the standard fantasy convention of blurring the lines between species and race when it comes to elves and humans.
However, if elves and humans were actually the same species, then those born of both would not just be considered "human," they'd be biracial/half-elf/whatever. This is not what's stated; rather, it's said explicitly that children of human/elf pairings are completely human, with only a few features that vaguely resemble elves. This is more explicit in DA2, where elves have a rather different skeletal structure, among other things, from humans, marking them as clearly members of a different species. Ultimately, I agree with LobselVith that this is almost certainly a magical effect.

[Asdrubael Vect]

"But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority"

Dwarves and Qunari(they ban any crossbreading and produce uberkossinds to rule lesser spiecies who would work only in the fields and never get high positions) did this too...

and have you ever thought

why the Ancient Tevinters conquer and enslaved only elf's(but they not do this for Dwarves) and why they wanted to be in Black City? 

why any human(and I'm sure that Kossind too) magister or just mage always have some elven blood in their veins?

why humans wants to crossbedeng with elf's but with other races, they almost do not do this?

why Chantry and Orlais really destroy Dales, enslaved elf's and force them to live in human city's?

how Zatrian can live and be still srong and young after more than 400 years with just one blood magic ritual(he use only his blood),  then Aventus have many of them, live only 150 years but look like wrinkled old man and he's soon die and become the darkspawn?

why Danrius use only elf for his experiment with Lyrium Vassalin(and remember what powers he gives), and how did he know about it?

Why Chantry really not allow elven Templars?

why all Tevinter/Dwarven Runes have ancient elven symbols?

why elf Shartan(and why Chantry really hide information about him) was the first aprentice of bloodmage Andraste's and what was her real race(who were her real parents, and her father)?

and why Chantry hides the descendants Andraste? and why Chantry hides and burned so fiercely all researchers and their books that claimed that Andraste was mage?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 avril 2013 - 10:08 .

[Ausstig]

Where did they say that Human+elf=Human was from magic?

[Noctis Augustus]

I want to see what they offer first, but I feel more inclined to side with the elves out of those three.

[The Elder King]

Dark Korsar wrote...


why the Ancient Tevinters conquer and enslaved only elf's(but they not do this for Dwarves) and why they wanted to be in Black City?

Dwarves live underground. Tevinter had no reason to wage war to them, and they could have economical benefit from their relationship.

why any human(and I'm sure that Kossind too) magister or just mage always have some elven blood in their veins?

Assumptions pretty much? Where was this stated?

why humans wants to crossbedeng with elf's but with other races, they almost do not do this?

Who was the human who wanted a child with a elf? The only half-elves I remember of are Alistair and Fenyrel. I don't remember Maric necessarily wanted an half-elf. Don't remember about Fenyrel, but considering that his father left him and his mother, I guess he didn't really want to settle down with elves.

why Chantry and Orlais really destroy Dales, enslaved elf's and force them to live in human city's?

There were religious and political reasons, as it was explained in this very thread. Orlais was in an expansion stage. The Chantry wants to convert anyone.

how Zatrian can live and be still srong and young after more than 400 years with just one blood magic ritual(he use only his blood),  then Aventus have many of them, live only 150 years but look like wrinkled old man and he's soon die and become the darkspawn?

Avernus was still tainted. Regardless, Zatrian and Avernus used different rituals. Zatrian was bind to the curse. As long as the curse he created existed, he'd be alive. As for his vitality, it might depend on the type of ritual that he made, which could be completely different from the rituals made by Avernus.

why Danrius use only elf for his experiment with Lyrium Vassalin(and remember what powers he gives), and how did he know about it?

About knowing, Danarius probably made experiments and arrived to this result. Why should those type of experiments being related to elven magic?
About using elves, those are probably the majority of the slaves in the Imperium, and it wouldn't be that unthinkable that magisters value elves less than humans, so they consider them more expendable for experiments.

Why Chantry really not allow elven Templars?

First, you don't know if elves want to be templars. Second, I doubt the Chantry would like to train and army a race they oppressed for centuries.

why all Tevinter/Dwarven Runes have ancient elven symbols?

Don't know about that. Elves were still the first race to use magic in Thedas (humans learnt later, dwarves can't use it). Maybe it's related to that?

why elf Shartan(and why Chantry really hide information about him) was the first aprentice of bloodmage Andraste's and what was her real race(who were her real parents, and her father)?

So you have sources to confirm that Shartan was a mage (as far as I know, not confirmed), that he was the apprentice of Andraste (not confirmed), that was not only a mage (not confirmed), but a blood mage (not confirmed and doubt it'll ever happen), and that she was half-elf at least (not confimed)? A lot of assumptions here mate.

[Palidane]

How do we know Justinia and the Elves are opposed? I haven't read the books, but she seems like a progressive in the Chantry.

Modifié par Palidane, 09 avril 2013 - 04:44 .

[Major Crackhead]

I'm all for siding with elves. Screw those racist human scum!

[WardenWade]

Palidane wrote...

How do we know Justinia and the Elves are opposed? I haven't read the books, but she seems like a progressive in the Chantry.

I like to think this as well.  Justinia appears sympathetic to mages and I think many of the same reasons for this might apply to elves.  She's indirectly responsible for saving my Tabris' mother's life and IMO is a believer in "second chances."  Likewise, her "left hand," Leliana, may be in a relationship with an elf (or dwarf, for that matter) and this may hold some additional sway.  I hope it will bear out that Justinia is, as you mentioned, a true reformer. My CE Warden certainly bears her no ill will 

Modifié par WardenWade, 09 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[Rinshikai10]

I agree that Justinia does have sympathetic views, with Mages. However I have read the book (won't give any spoilers) and IMHO she seems very idealistic.

Of the three I would say that Celene has the best chance of working with the elves, but like anything its going to cost her.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 09 avril 2013 - 05:20 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

What the elves believe is irrelevent. Let them think that they're inherently superior to humanity, let them eschew diplomatic relations. They can think whatever they want, as long as they don't try to murder anyone over it.

Wanting to be left alone is not a crime. [/quote]

The debate is whether the elves were justified to retaliate with deadly force to attempted Chantry proselytizing. [/quote]

Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory tends to provoke a response by the people who were invaded.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

The funny thing is, I agree that given Orlesian (and Andrastian) attitudes to elven culture that a forceful approach (up to and including proportional physical violence) is entirely justified. The elves most certainly have a (moral) claim to their culture and to protecting it. 

But once the narrative switches to elven racial superirity, humans as "contaminants" and the need to segrgate elves and humasn to keep them elves racially pure ... [/quote]

Your statement has nothing to do with why the elves of the Dales were keeping themselves seperate from the imperialists neighboring their nation. The fact is the elves were trying to reclaim their immortality, which (they believe) was lost because of their contact with humans, and which Gaider has already addressed could be true because the City Elves only live as long as ordinary humans, while the generations of Dalish elves who live seperate from humans live longer and longer lives.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

... Well, my ":blink::(" metre breaks. [/quote]

Considering there's absolutely no basis for your claim in Dalish lore or from the People, I'm not the least bit surprised.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Xil's point is that elves and humans produce human children, which the developers have said may be the result of something magical - not scientific. You're comparing apples and oranges here. [/quote]


Oh, boy. First off, let's play a game. Research "natural magic".

Here is a helpful wikipedia blurb:

[quote]Natural magic[/b] in the context of Renaissance magic is that part of the occult which deals with natural forces directly, as opposed to ceremonial magic, in particular goety and theurgy, which deals with the summoning of spirits. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa so uses the term in his 1526 de vanitate[/i]. Natural magic so defined thus includes astrology, alchemy, and disciplines that we would today consider fields of natural science, such as astronomy and chemistry (which developed and diverged from astrology and alchemy, respectively, into the modern sciences they are today) orbotany (herbology). [/quote]

Notice how, helpfully, the assumption that the causal sources are "magic" rather than "mechanical" isn't at all important to a field of study that, effectively, look at causes to describe them in formal terms? [/quote]

Does this entry have anything to do with what the Dragon Age developers said? The developers suggested that there may be a magical reason behind humans and elves only being able to have human children, and they had made it clear that the reason wasn't for scientific or genetic reasons. I'm not seeing any correlation between your entry and what the Dragon Age developers have suggested.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

There is no meaningful distinction between "magic" and "science" insofar as you're talking about causal mechanisms. If there a set of rules and process that govern how the process works - if there's a mechanism then what you have is the functional analogy to science. 

But this is just for your edification (like the lesson on what "preponderance of evidence" means below). Whatever the process is at isssue, it doesn't matter, because your justification is still offensive because of how laden it is with concepts like "racial purity". [/quote]

In other words, it has nothing to do with Dragon Age. Gotcha.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I imagine some might not have a problem with the extinction of the elven people, given the racist attitude many hold towards the elves. [/quote]

Not to jump at shadows... but you do see the irony of accusing people of racism while you're praising the racial virtues of elves and advocating for a pureblood elf state free from human contamination to create a race of ubermensch? Right? You see how this is really creepy? [/quote]

Do you realize your theory has no basis in the lore, when an explanation was already provided as to why the elves were isolating themselves from the empire that was invading its neighbors? The elves wanted to regain their lost immortality. We also know they wanted to restore their culture, and refused to abandon the worship of their gods when the humans were turning to worship of the Maker. Coming up an explanation from your imagination and acting like it's fact isn't really changing anyone's mind here.

Furthermore, many Andrastians in Thedas are racist, as we know from the storyline in Origins, Awakening, Dragon Age II, and the Dragon Age novels. It's not a matter up for debate. Duncan even notes (to the protagonist) his difficulty in convincing people that elves are people, because of the traditional views some Andrastians hold that elves as less than people.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the reason for their isolation was that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality and restore their culture while rebuffing the Chantry's attempts at conversion and the advances of the Orlesian Empire. [/quote]

I recall that, as a moral point, unproven claims about racial purity and genetic superity fall right on the "completely unhinged whackjob" side of the scale when it comes to "things that it is morally OK to kill for". But maybe that's because I'm Jewish. [/quote]

Which is a reason I detest the Andrastian Chantry and their moral superiority over all others, from elves to non-Andrastians.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall Feynriel being accepted into the Sabrae Clan by Keeper Marethari. [/quote]

You mean, a human-elf child can willingly adopt elf culture, and be considered a dalish elf? [/quote]

Considering Feynriel is human, it's an example of the Dalish taking in a human among them.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

And have a talent that's all but legendary among the elves? And that what makes elves "elvhen" is their culture, and not skin pigment, physiological features, or some unfounded belief in their racial and genetic superiority? 

... No, I'm hoping for too much, aren't I? [/quote]

Considering the story of Aveline (who Dragon Age II's Aveline is named after) is one of the Dalish taking in a human child who had no magical ability, and wasn't part elf, you might want to come up with an explanation that doesn't immediately fall apart when you look at the lore. Just a suggestion.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's true in the sense that the offspring of elves and humans produce humans. You're forgetting that this is fantasy, not science fiction. The developers have said there may be a magical reason for why this union produces human offspring. [/quote]

It doesn't matter. What makes the idea racist and offensive is the implication that if an elven person dares not to reproduce with an elf, he or she is somehow "polutting" their pure genetic stock and leading their race to extiction. I'm not sure how many other ways I can stake this to get across just how really creepy this idea is. [/quote]

Which ignores that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality, as well as the fact that we have examples of the Dalish interacting with humans, taking in humans, and fighting alongside humans. The point of the elves in the Dales was that they were trying to reclaim their immortality, and they were keeping out a city-state of conquerers who were invading other city-states to establish an empire.

You're also forgetting that Xil was pointing out that elves and humans produce human children. The developers have also pointed this out as well - it's not a matter up for debate.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Being against the elimination of the elven people isn't the same as being against every human and elven coupling [/quote]

I know, because that's what I said. I wasn't the one who brought up that half-elvens looking human somehow means that Elves will go extinct, or justified elven isolation on the basis of, again, keeping the stock racially pure because the children look more human than elven. [/quote]

There is no such thing as "half-elvens", because the children of elves and humans produce human children. This was pointed out by Xil. This was mentioned by the developers. It's even acknowledged in "The Calling" by Fiona, when she explains to Maric why their son is human.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales didn't want to lose their culture and religion to a human empire that wanted to force them to give up the Creators for the Maker. [/quote]

I'm not objected to a perfectly legitimate reason to what to defend one's culture. Go elves, really. Punch Orlais straight in the nuts for being imperalist and trying to destroy the few shreds left of your culture after your people were broken and enslaved. 

But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority (read: immortality) that would be pulluted by (i) the mere presence of humans (because humans magically make you mortal) or (ii) pairing with humans (because O-M-G your children will look physiologically human so the race is plunging toward extinction!) [/quote]

If you want to have a debate with the developers over the fact that elves and humans produce human children, go right ahead. I'm really not the person who can change the lore to suit your preference on the matter. I certainly see racism in Thedas, however. The elves are forced to live in ghettos, they are viewed as less than human, and they had their culture and religion outlawed by the Chantry. That's certainly racist ideology right there.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aside from the developers acknowledging that the Dalish live longer lives than their city brethren [/quote]

The Americans live longer than Romanian , but you don't see anyone claimaint that proves the Americans are immortal. Because, you know, that would be completely insane and fly in the face of everything we know about how the world works. [/quote]

Except the developers pointed out the generations of Dalish who live away from humans live longer lives, so your comparison doesn't really fit.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

, who mentioned the generations of elves who had no contact with humans lived longer and longer lives? [/quote]

The proof we have of that is Zathrian, who used bloodmagic. And lots of humans live quite long lives - Avernus lived for centuries, sucking the life out of a few humans, and he had to deal with the taint that kills humans way before their natural lifespan. Who knows how long people could live with bloodmagic! [/quote]

Actually, the developers pointed out Zathrian wasn't the only example of a Dalish elf who has lived a long life.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a possibility that could turn out to be true. [/quote]

That's not how evidence works! Again, it's "a possibility" that a hermaprodite "magic" interdimensional space lizard created planet Earth to prove to seven headed flying cat from another dimension that bad things happening to good people is funny, but that doesn't mean that this "possibility" is something that any shred of evidence supports/points to. [/quote]

Except for what the developers have said on the matter, of course.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

To use the the thing you hate, it's a "possibility" that the Maker exists, but that doesn't justify Orlais breaking down the gates and forcibly converting every single elf. [/quote]

Except the elves weren't hurting Orlais by wanting to be left alone, while the Orlesian Empire certainly hurt the elves by invading their sovereign nation and trying to forcibly convert the elves to their religion.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So you're upset Xil would prefer to help the elves stand on their own two feet, rather than force them to submit to humanity? [/quote]

I.... what... .do you even.... 

How do you go from: "the stuff about the inherent superiority of the elves and the need to maintain their genetic purity from contact with human contaminants" to "you're upset Xil would prefer to help the elves stand on their own two feet, rather than force them to submit to humanity" 

I just want to understand by what process your mind looks at words and sentences and parses ther meaning, because I can't for the life of me see how B follows A here. [/quote]

Considering you're labelling elves as racist for not permitting an empire of conquerers into their territory, and coming up with every inflammatory analogy available to vilify the elves' position in wanting to be left alone to reclaim their culture and regain their immortality when their Orlesian neighbor is conquering other nations and forcing the people to submit to Drakon's Cult of Andraste turned nationalized religion, I don't really think you're one to talk.

[TK514]

Interesting that no one sees the inherent contradiction between "We segregate ourselves from humans to, in theory, regain our lost immortality, which was caused by exposure to humans, maybe" and "We willingly allow humans to join our tribes and live with them for years."  Of course, there's no actual proof that he elves were ever immortal.  Naturally living longer than humans does not require some 'lost immortality' explanation to be fact.  Lots of things live longer than humans.  As to why City Elves don't live as long as their free range brethren, it might have something to do with living in slums among people who often treat them as less than property.  No supernatural explanation required.

There's also nothing in any Dev quote that would disprove or disallow the Elves as disturbing racial purists with a superiority complex.  DA is, in theory, dark fantasy, so why wouldn't they be?

it's also curious that some people seem to be taking the elven version of history at face value and ignoring all other possibilities.  What if the Orlesian/Chantry version of the events is the historically accurate account?  Or what if, as the saying goes, the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Modifié par TK514, 09 avril 2013 - 07:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

How do we know Justinia and the Elves are opposed? I haven't read the books, but she seems like a progressive in the Chantry.

This thread is mostly speculation at the moment. While we have gotten some information about the mechanics and the protagonist, I'm speculating about the possibility of the protagonist being able to side with the elves (who might be rebelling in occupied Dales), instead of with Empress Celene or Grand Duke Gaspard (who are in the middle of a civil war over the empire).

As for the Chantry of Andraste, I can imagine the People would be opposed to the Chantry, considering how the history of the Dalish has the Chantry starting the war with the Dales with an invasion by the templars, and even in present day Thedas, the Dalish clans are nomadic because the templars hunt the Dalish clans down (as Merrill explains to Hawke).

In terms of Inquisition (and speculation), I have no interest in working with Divine Justina V. She seems interested in keeping the Chantry in power, and giving the mages just enough freedoms that they won't complain about living in servitude. Keeping the status quo in place doesn't make her a progressive person. I think Fiona had the right idea in Asunder: "**** the Divine."

[Asdrubael Vect]

Only Dalish, Tevinter or Dwarven version can be true...and even Qunari version at least in some parts

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 avril 2013 - 07:32 .

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

Interesting that no one sees the inherent contradiction between "We segregate ourselves from humans to, in theory, regain our lost immortality, which was caused by exposure to humans, maybe" and "We willingly allow humans to join our tribes and live with them for years."  

It's the difference between the Dales being a kingdom where the elves kept out an aggressor that was invading other nations, and the Dalish clans being nomadic groups of people who were evading the templars and the Chantry who hunted them down.

TK514 wrote...

Of course, there's no actual proof that he elves were ever immortal.  Naturally living longer than humans does not require some 'lost immortality' explanation to be fact.  Lots of things live longer than humans.

Which is why people have addressed it as a possibility.

TK514 wrote...

As to why City Elves don't live as long as their free range brethren, it might have something to do with living in slums among people who often treat them as less than property.  No supernatural explanation required.

Except the developers have acknowledged that the Dalish seem to live longer depending on how many generations they have lived away from humans, so it's a possibility that could be true. As Gaider said, "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

TK514 wrote...

There's also nothing in any Dev quote that would disprove or disallow the Elves as disturbing racial purists with a superiority complex.  DA is, in theory, dark fantasy, so why wouldn't they be?

There's nothing in any dev quote to disprove or disallow the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either, but no character or in-game author claims that the elves were racial purists. The point remains that the lore of the Dalish says that the elves of the Dales were trying to restore their culture and reclaim their immortality.

TK514 wrote...

it's also curious that some people seem to be taking the elven version of history at face value and ignoring all other possibilities.  

People pointed out there was another side to the story when some people were claiming that there was only the Orlesian version to the war with the Dales. It's why people have addressed that this historical account is what the Dalish believe happened.

TK514 wrote...

What if the Orlesian/Chantry version of the events is the historically accurate account?  Or what if, as the saying goes, the truth is somewhere in the middle? 

Or the Dalish could be telling the truth. Who knows.

[TK514]

No character or in game author has to claim it if the Elves are acting like it. It's a perfectly valid theory to explain their mindset and actions.

The thing is, some folks, and I'll use you, Lobsel, as the most convenient example, don't present your arguments as 'possibility'. You address the subject as though the Elvish account were fact and the Orlesian/Chantry account were lies. Certainly you pay lip service to the idea when it is pointed out, but then ignore it when it comes time to argue a point in favor of you pro-Elf agenda. Hardly conducive to an objective discussion on the relationship between the Dalish and Orlais, or the pros and Cons of an Elvish Uprising.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Well of course Chantry (religious and anti-Tevinter/Mages propaganda organization what was founded by Emperor Dragon when he captured the lands of Thedas) was "telling the truth":D

Chantry openly hiding the truth and any information of many things, burn any dissenters and researchers and books of event data that says Chantry.

..and Chantry-Orlais Empire allways do crusades to non-belivers(any non-orlais)...they do that for Tevinters, they do that for Dalish..and they may ever did this for Dwarves(if just one dwarven Сhantry priest/missionary in Orzammar dies...sound very familiar<_<)

and what Tevinter, Dwarves or Dalish do that stuff? ....no, at least Dalish and Dwarves never do that and they have no reasons for that

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 avril 2013 - 08:47 .

[Palidane]

Faerunner wrote...

The thing is, some folks, and I'll use you, Lobsel, as the most convenient example, don't present your arguments as 'possibility'. You address the subject as though the Elvish account were fact and the Orlesian/Chantry account were lies. Certainly you pay lip service to the idea when it is pointed out, but then ignore it when it comes time to argue a point in favor of you pro-Elf agenda. Hardly conducive to an objective discussion on the relationship between the Dalish and Orlais, or the pros and Cons of an Elvish Uprising.

And your view is any more "objective"? Both accounts agree that one nation invaded, conquered and subjugated another. The only difference is the invaders' account tries to rationalize their conquest by demonizing the other side with slander, hearsay and rumors ("Dark rumors" and "whispers of humans captured and sacrificed" that they didn't even bother to verify) whereas the invaded simply explain what happened ("The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars").

If the conquerers' rationalization rests on demonizing the conquered with flimsy accusations that even they cannot verify, then you'll forgive our hesitation to believe them. If you want to believe the invaders' demonizing account of the invaded, then that's your business, but don't pretend your view is somehow more objective.

All the information was have on this event comes from one Codex entry, so I think it's a little dishonest to say "The Chantry clearly made up a bunch of crap and didn't even bother to verify it". We don't know. The two accounts we have do not agree with each other. There are major contradictions in the two tales, and not just on the Chantry's part. The Dalish say the Chantry invaded them when the Elves threw out their missionaries. The Chantry says that the Elves grew extremely hostile to human interference, posting Emerald Knights to repulse any and all attempts at diplomacy or trade. Eventually, they attacked Red Crossing, a defenseless fishing village, and then marching all the way to the doorstep of Val Royeaux, and were only turned back by a united coalition of Andrastian nations in the Second Exalted March. 

Now which one of those accounts has more concrete facts in it, more stuff that can be verified? The Chantry's account shouldn't immediatley be demonized just because they won. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, but lets not twist facts to use as ammunition against one side or the other.

Modifié par Palidane, 10 avril 2013 - 12:02 .

[YeOldePatu]

It is likely that both sides were demonizing the other to justify their cause. And because of this neither sides version of the events cannot be treated as an absolute fact. It would be nice if there was any material from a third party (preferably Qunari) to give more perspective.
But alas that is not the case.

Modifié par YeOldePatu, 10 avril 2013 - 12:27 .