438 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

The thing is, some folks, and I'll use you, Lobsel, as the most convenient example, don't present your arguments as 'possibility'. You address the subject as though the Elvish account were fact and the Orlesian/Chantry account were lies. Certainly you pay lip service to the idea when it is pointed out, but then ignore it when it comes time to argue a point in favor of you pro-Elf agenda. Hardly conducive to an objective discussion on the relationship between the Dalish and Orlais, or the pros and Cons of an Elvish Uprising.

And your view is any more "objective"? Both accounts agree that one nation invaded, conquered and subjugated another. The only difference is the invaders' account tries to rationalize their conquest by demonizing the other side with slander, hearsay and rumors ("Dark rumors" and "whispers of humans captured and sacrificed" that they didn't even bother to verify) whereas the invaded simply explain what happened ("The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars").

If the conquerers' rationalization rests on demonizing the conquered with flimsy accusations that even they cannot verify, then you'll forgive our hesitation to believe them. If you want to believe the invaders' demonizing account of the invaded, then that's your business, but don't pretend your view is somehow more objective.

All the information was have on this event comes from one Codex entry, so I think it's a little dishonest to say "The Chantry clearly made up a bunch of crap and didn't even bother to verify it". We don't know. The two accounts we have do not agree with each other. There are major contradictions in the two tales, and not just on the Chantry's part. The Dalish say the Chantry invaded them when the Elves threw out their missionaries. The Chantry says that the Elves grew extremely hostile to human interference, posting Emerald Knights to repulse any and all attempts at diplomacy or trade. Eventually, they attacked Red Crossing, a defenseless fishing village, and then marching all the way to the doorstep of Val Royeaux, and were only turned back by a united coalition of Andrastian nations in the Second Exalted March. 

Now which one of those accounts has more concrete facts in it, more stuff that can be verified? The Chantry's account shouldn't immediatley be demonized just because they won. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, but lets not twist facts to use as ammunition against one side or the other.

People are skeptical of the Chantry's account because it goes out of its way to deliberately tell blatant lies about the Dalish elves engaging in human sacrifice.

[In Exile]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory tends to provoke a response by the people who were invaded. [/quote]

Which people, and whose soldiers? Both the elves and the Orlesians are claiming to be the victims. But again - you're totally right: acting in self-defence in response to a military invasion is a perfectly legitimate justification for violence. 

What isn't a justifcation for violence is an argument in favour of segregation on the basis of racial lines for the purpose of maintaining racial purity to (eventually) breed a race of immortal ubermensch. That's, again, really, really creepy. 

The reason the debate has dragged on this long is that you are support the second paragraph, but pretending like it's the first paragraph. These. Are. Not. The. Same. Thing. 


[quote]Your statement has nothing to do with why the elves of the Dales were keeping themselves seperate from the imperialists neighboring their nation. The fact is the elves were trying to reclaim their immortality, which (they believe) was lost because of their contact with humans, [/quote]

Again: it is hard to imagine a more offensive and unjustifiable motive for taking the life of other people than the desire to maintain strict segregation on racial lines for the purpose of maintain racial purity and breeding ubermensch. 

If the elves believe that they are racially superior and need to keep themselves free from human "contaminants", then their motivations are absolutely vile.


[quote]and which Gaider has already addressed could be true because the City Elves only live as long as ordinary humans, while the generations of Dalish elves who live seperate from humans live longer and longer lives. [/quote]

No. This is not how logic works. Even if its true that elves live longer than humans, that doesn't mean that elves ever were (or could be) immortal. The krogan and asari in ME live a lot longer than people, but neither are functionally ageless or immortal. 


[quote]Considering there's absolutely no basis for your claim in Dalish lore or from the People, I'm not the least bit surprised. [/quote]

And we're right back to it. How does my getting really worried about your apparent support for segregation and murder justified on the basis of racial purity relate to anything about in-game lore? 


How do you parse senteces? By what process do you derive me


[quote]Does this entry have anything to do with what the Dragon Age developers said?[/quote]

Yeah, it does. Saying something is "magic" doesn't suddenly mean you don't have to have a mechanism available to justify any kind of inference from it. I understand that for you, "inference" means "consequence Lob likes" and "logic" means "process that gets Lob to consequence Lob likes", but try playing by the rules the rest of the world goes by for a bit. Humour me here. 

 
[quote]The developers suggested that there may be a magical reason behind humans and elves only being able to have human children, and they had made it clear that the reason wasn't for scientific or genetic reasons. I'm not seeing any correlation between your entry and what the Dragon Age developers have suggested.[/quote]

Again: saying it's "magic" doesn't suddenly excuse you from needing a formal mechanism to draw inferences from before drawing inferences. 

[quote]
Do you realize your theory has no basis in the lore, when an explanation was already provided as to why the elves were isolating themselves from the empire that was invading its neighbors? The elves wanted to regain their lost immortality . [/quote]

That's the racist and offensive motivation! The elves wanted to "regain" their immortality apparently means "complete isolation from humans" enforced by military might.

So what you have is a nation that uses military power to enforce segregation of the races  so that it can keep only elves to eventually become immortal. 

In other wises, a nation uses military power to maintain racial purity to eventually become a race of ubermensch. 

 
[quote]We also know they wanted to restore their culture, and refused to abandon the worship of their gods when the humans were turning to worship of the Maker. [/quote]

All perfectly legitimate reasons. None of which have anything to do with an offensive ideology of racial purity that you're happily cheering on. 
[quote]Coming up an explanation from your imagination and acting like it's fact isn't really changing anyone's mind here[/quote]

I'm not coming up with any explanation. You are. You're the one (and Xil too) that keeps bringing up the immortaility thing as somehow justifying violent miltary action and segregation. That's what makes super offensive.


[quote]Furthermore, many Andrastians in Thedas are racist, as we know from the storyline in Origins, Awakening, Dragon Age II, and the Dragon Age novels. It's not a matter up for debate. Duncan even notes (to the protagonist) his difficulty in convincing people that elves are people, because of the traditional views some Andrastians hold that elves as less than people.[/quote]

Absolutely. Their attitudes are offensive. Just like an attitude that enforced racial segregation to maintain racial purity is offensive. But you're apparently pro that one, so I'm not sure how your mind is working here. 


[quote] Which is a reason I detest the Andrastian Chantry and their moral superiority over all others, from elves to non-Andrastians. [/quote]

But it makes you appalud when the elves use the same BS justification? Because... why, exactly? You like elves, so it's not racist or offensive when they do it? That's... really, really hypocritical. 


[quote]Considering Feynriel is human, it's an example of the Dalish taking in a human among them. [/quote]

Ye gods! Marethari is a traitor! Execute her now! She's giving up her immortality! Who knows when she might die of old age! 

... What's that? She lives for years after, with absolutely no ill effects, and no indication she would have passed away despite meeting a human and living with one? But that's absurd! That might mean this business with the quickining is a load of garbage, and nothing more than racial supremacy. But that would be silly! 

[quote]Considering the story of Aveline (who Dragon Age II's Aveline is named after) is one of the Dalish taking in a human child who had no magical ability, and wasn't part elf, you might want to come up with an explanation that doesn't immediately fall apart when you look at the lore. Just a suggestion. [/quote]

Dear gods More traitors! They're working against the elves to have them lose their immortality! Quick, build cages around them so that the humans can't infect them with their death disease! 


[quote]Which ignores that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality, [/quote]

Except for all those times they happily adopt humans into their claims because they're actually not a bunch of unhiged racist loons, but more worried about their culture and traditions. 


[quote]as well as the fact that we have examples of the Dalish interacting with humans, taking in humans, and fighting alongside humans.  [/quote]

How dare those traitors! Were are the armed guards at the border? They're letting humans interact with them! They should be killing their diplomats and barring the gates to protect their immortality! 


[quote]The point of the elves in the Dales was that they were trying to reclaim their immortality, and they were keeping out a city-state of conquerers who were invading other city-states to establish an empire. [/quote]

So the point of the elves in the Dales were (i) to legitimate protect their culture; and (ii) to maintain racial segregation and racial purity to become ubermench. No, sorry, (ii) is still crazy racist.


[quote]You're also forgetting that Xil was pointing out that elves and humans produce human children. The developers have also pointed this out as well - it's not a matter up for debate. [/quote]

I'm not debating what. What I'm debating is the offensive implication that elf+ human = human somehow means that it's justifiable to draw the inference that this will lead to the elves being extinct. Holy hell, that's like saying that if two humans who can't reproduce get married and raise a bunch of cats, they're leading us all to extiction because they're not making more humans! 


You guy are the ones that keep coming up with all sorts of perfectly legitimate scenario and the giving the most offensive gloss this side of 1939. 


[quote]There is no such thing as "half-elvens", because the children of elves and humans produce human children. This was pointed out by Xil. This was mentioned by the developers. It's even acknowledged in "The Calling" by Fiona, when she explains to Maric why their son is human. [/quote]

Unless you've got the racial purity thing going on, the distinction is meaningless. 


[quote]If you want to have a debate with the developers over the fact that elves and humans produce human children, go right ahead. [/quote]

How does your mind work? How do you read? How do you go from what I said (see below) to this line about me having an issue with elf+human = human? 

But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority (read: immortality) that would be pulluted by (i) the mere presence of humans (because humans magically make you mortal) or (ii) pairing with humans (because O-M-G your children will look physiologically human so the race is plunging toward extinction!)

[quote]I certainly see racism in Thedas, however. The elves are forced to live in ghettos, they are viewed as less than human, and they had their culture and religion outlawed by the Chantry. That's certainly racist ideology right there. [/quote]

Absolutely. It's racist and appaling. Forced segregation in the alienage along racial lines? Nuts and offensive! Forced segregration along racial lines in the Dales? Apparently totally cool in your view. A belief that elves are inferior and less than human? Racist and offensive! A belief that humans are a walking plague and contamination and a belief that it's justified to murder them to maintain a purely elven state so that the elves can become immortal? Totally not about keeping the race pure and become ubermensch.

Silly me. I should have realized that because you like the elves, your repeated attempts to justify an ideology of racial segregation and racial purity is A-OK.

[quote]Except the developers pointed out the generations of Dalish who live away from humans live longer lives, so your comparison doesn't really fit. [/quote]

Yes it does! Dales = live long lives. Americans = live long lives. Since your reasoning is literally the Dalish live a long time, therefore this justifies that they were once immortal, Americans living a long time (longer than Romanians) justifies not only that Americans are immortals, but that Romanians aren't! 

[quote]Actually, the developers pointed out Zathrian wasn't the only example of a Dalish elf who has lived a long life.[/quote]

And Jeanne Calment lived 122 years, but that doesn't make humans immortal. 

[quote]Except for what the developers have said on the matter, of course. [/quote]

What does this even mean, and how does this relate to anything that I said, other than being a (pretty pathethic) dodge? 

[quote]Except the elves weren't hurting Orlais by wanting to be left alone[/quote]

Unless they were the ones invading it. But that would be absurd. It would mean that the history of Thedas isn't the one you like, which (silly me) can't be true. 

Not to mention that, again, that's not at issue here. What's at issue is your defence of an outrageously racist idea. 

[quote]Considering you're labelling elves as racist for not permitting an empire of conquerers into their territory, and coming up with every inflammatory analogy available to vilify the elves' position in wanting to be left alone to reclaim their culture and regain their immortality  [/quote]

You're doing it again! Let me point this out for you: 

I say: The funny thing is, I agree that given Orlesian (and Andrastian) attitudes to elven culture that a forceful approach (up to and including proportional physical violence) is entirely justified. The elves most certainly have a (moral) claim to their culture and to protecting it. .  

You say: regain their immortality. What does that mean? It means (i) forced racial segregation; (ii) strict standards of racial purity (e.g.  elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction.); (iii) the drive to breed ubermensech (aforementioned immortality). 

No, this stuff's not an acceptable ideology. Wanting to protect your people? Laudable. Wanting to protect your culture? Absolutely. Wanting to keep out invaders? Go for it! Want to keep out all humans, maintain a state of exclusive elves, consider any human+elf paraing as "ultimately lead[ing]" to "extinction" and believing in elven elven immortality that's lost because of "Humans ... disease[s] they spread" ... that's super, super creepy. 

[quote]when their Orlesian neighbor is conquering other nations and forcing the people to submit to Drakon's Cult of Andraste turned nationalized religion, I don't really think you're one to talk.
[/quote]

How many more times can I say: Orlais = racist and bad for your brain to process that you can both think that current Andrastian society is racist and bad, while also thinking that any ideology of racial segregation and racial purity is equally bad?

Modifié par In Exile, 10 avril 2013 - 01:10 .

[andy6915]

How do you know they're lies? The Dalish's word against the Chantry's? Makes sense, because if the elves did what the Chantry claims then they would be SOOOO inclined to admit it... Right? It's true that history is made by the victors, but that in no way means that the losers in history are always 100% honest about their role in the events either. You can't just say "it's lies because you can't believe a word of the winners because they MUST be lying because they won", because that is a really bad logical fallacy. If you don't have evidence that the official history is wrong, then you can't go making definitive statements about it being wrong. Taking the word of the elves as the accurate version of the events simply because they were the ones who lost is not how logic works.

Put simply if the elves did sacrifice humans in rituals, they would not admit it. They have a vested interest in making themselves appear as innocent as possible, so you can't just swallow their claims about what really happened any more then you can swallow all the Chantry's claims about what really happened. Do I know elves did? No. Do I know they didn't? No. Thing is, I'm not claiming either side as completely right or honest. You are.

Modifié par andy69156915, 10 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Both races have populations in the trillions, asari have many other species to mate with besides humans, and neither race has explicit power over the other.

Yeah, I'm not letting you get out of this. Here's what you said: "even without the Quickening, that's sort of true, in that elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction." 

You didn't say: because (i) of the low number of elves; (ii) the imbalance of power between elves and humans which (iii) somehow forces elves to bread with humans and (iv) not to breed with themselves, then (v) over (many?) generations, (vi) all elves pairing with humans; (vii) could lead to extinction. 

I'm also not letting you get away with claiming that the asari not having power over humans, or the species numbers. That's as absurd as pretending the turians don't have explicit power over the humans. 

To be frank, elves and humans shouldn't be able to have reproductively viable offspring. They're different species, as much as dwarves are. The fact that they can seems to be the standard fantasy convention of blurring the lines between species and race when it comes to elves and humans.

If you want to be scientific about it, being able to procreate would be one of the stanards by which we would say that they are the same species. Taxanomical rules aren't normative. We're trying to create frameworks of comparison. We'd also likely use genetic tests to see what the similarities and differences are. 

Trying to apply actual science to this is pointless, because genetics doesn't work with the fantasy race bit. 

However, if elves and humans were actually the same species, then those born of both would not just be considered "human," they'd be biracial/half-elf/whatever.

What? No. If two members of the same species have children, their chidren are members of that species. That's the whole point. If elves and humans were the same species, then we'd need a higher order name for the actual species, with "elf" and "human" being just cultural artifacts (or a reference to nations). 

This is not what's stated; rather, it's said explicitly that children of human/elf pairings are completely human, with only a few features that vaguely resemble elves. This is more explicit in DA2, where elves have a rather different skeletal structure, among other things, from humans, marking them as clearly members of a different species. Ultimately, I agree with LobselVith that this is almost certainly a magical effect.

What exactly it means for a child to have an elf parent and a human parent we have no idea, other than that they look human. Pre-DA:O DG said this had to do with the "adaptability" of elves, and that it would apply equally well to dwarves or qunari. 

There certainly isn't an inference to draw between this and some hypothetical idea of immortality, and none of this touches on the whole justifying racial segregation/racial purity thing that you guys seem fond of (I kind of thought you were more of a leftie than that, honestly, based on our previous discussions). 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, I'm not letting you get out of this. Here's what you said: "even without the Quickening, that's sort of true, in that elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction."

You didn't say: because (i) of the low number of elves; (ii) the imbalance of power between elves and humans which (iii) somehow forces elves to bread with humans and (iv) not to breed with themselves, then (v) over (many?) generations, (vi) all elves pairing with humans; (vii) could lead to extinction.

Yes, I rather assumed it was inferred. However, not all elves need to mate with humans for this to happen; if any do, and the elven population continues in its decline, then every elf/human pairing is another elven line destroyed.

I'm also not letting you get away with claiming that the asari not having power over humans, or the species numbers. That's as absurd as pretending the turians don't have explicit power over the humans.

Well, they don't either. Especially not after the Reaper war.

If you want to be scientific about it, being able to procreate would be one of the stanards by which we would say that they are the same species. Taxanomical rules aren't normative. We're trying to create frameworks of comparison. We'd also likely use genetic tests to see what the similarities and differences are.

Trying to apply actual science to this is pointless, because genetics doesn't work with the fantasy race bit.

Real-world genetics, specifically. Scientific thinking works everywhere.

What? No. If two members of the same species have children, their chidren are members of that species. That's the whole point. If elves and humans were the same species, then we'd need a higher order name for the actual species, with "elf" and "human" being just cultural artifacts (or a reference to nations).

True, but Thedas doesn't have a higher-order name for it yet. The point is that they're not the same species.

What exactly it means for a child to have an elf parent and a human parent we have no idea, other than that they look human. Pre-DA:O DG said this had to do with the "adaptability" of elves, and that it would apply equally well to dwarves or qunari.

In which case it'd be a problem with all races, not just human.

There certainly isn't an inference to draw between this and some hypothetical idea of immortality, and none of this touches on the whole justifying racial segregation/racial purity thing that you guys seem fond of (I kind of thought you were more of a leftie than that, honestly, based on our previous discussions).

It's not about racial purity, it's about preserving a distinct and endangered species.

No, this stuff's not an acceptable ideology. Wanting to protect your
people? Laudable. Wanting to protect your culture? Absolutely. Wanting
to keep out invaders? Go for it! Want to keep out all humans, maintain a
state of exclusive elves, consider any human+elf paraing as "ultimately
lead[ing]" to "extinction" and believing in elven elven immortality
that's lost because of "Humans ... disease[s] they spread" ... that's
super, super creepy.

If the Quickening isn't caused just by human presence, or doesn't exist, then of course, racial segregation for that purpose would be unnecessary. However, if it is, it's wholly justified; it's simply protecting the elves from a disease that humans apparently literally cannot stop themselves from spreading (unless they can, in which case we do that, or inoculate the elves, or whatever, and the problem is solved).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[Sir JK]

Xil (and Lobsel)... a question... if we assume you get what you (seem to) argue for and an isolated elven state is recreated in the Dales and the humans are kept away.

What happens when the elven population increases to such a level that the Dales are no longer sufficient with their present agricultural techniques (and no improvement thereof is in sight)?

[Plaintiff]

andy69156915 wrote...

How do you know they're lies? The Dalish's word against the Chantry's? Makes sense, because if the elves did what the Chantry claims then they would be SOOOO inclined to admit it... Right? It's true that history is made by the victors, but that in no way means that the losers in history are always 100% honest about their role in the events either.

The codex entry itself admits that there is no verification of any such incidents taking place. It doesn't mention "evidence" of human sacrifice, the term it uses is "dark rumours".

Archaeologists are capable of determining if an extinct civilization engaged in human (or any kind of sacrifice) thousands of years after the fact. Compared to that, any evidence of human sacrifice in Halamshiral would be relatively recent and easy to find. Furthermore, if sacrifice rituals are part of Dalish culture, then why have we seen no evidence of the Dalish engaging in human or even animal sacrifice currently? If even the humans are aware of it, then there's no way it could be part of the "lost" culture of the Dalish.

You can't just say "it's lies because you can't believe a word of the winners because they MUST be lying because they won", because that is a really bad logical fallacy.

Yes, it would be a logical fallacy. That's why I'm not doing that.

If you don't have evidence that the official history is wrong, then you can't go making definitive statements about it being wrong. Taking the word of the elves as the accurate version of the events simply because they were the ones who lost is not how logic works.

I don't see anybody claiming that the Chantry is lying. They are simply skeptical.

The article written from the perspective of the Chantry uses emotionally evocative language that is more commonly found in blatant propaganda than in any historical record. In fact, some of the things it says obviously run counter to the actual reality we see in Thedas. For instance, the Chantry codex ends by stating that the elves were "left to survive on goodwill alone", but we know that the elves do not survive on goodwill, at least not from humans. The Dalish are resourceful and self-sustaining, they do not ask for help from humans and don't accept it on the rare occasion that it is offered. This final statement is clearly meant to paint the humans as generous and charitable towards the elves when they are anything but.

Put simply if the elves did sacrifice humans in rituals, they would not admit it. They have a vested interest in making themselves appear as innocent as possible, so you can't just swallow their claims about what really happened any more then you can swallow all the Chantry's claims about what really happened. Do I know elves did? No. Do I know they didn't? No. Thing is, I'm not claiming either side as completely right or honest. You are.

On the contrary, the Dalish elves gain nothing from lying about their history. They don't communicate with the humans at all if they can help it, they cetainly aren't looking for co-operation or sympathy. What is their motivation? To paint humans as villains? The humans already attack any Dalish that wander near their settlements, and send Templars to kidnap their precious and valuable mage children. Engendering further mistrust is not even slightly necessary. If human sacrifice was a genuine aspect of Dalish culture, the Keepers would have no reason to hide this information from the clans, because humans are already feared and reviled. It would be easy to justify.

The Chantry, however, has every reason to falsely paint the Dalish elves and their religion as evil. Their propoganda dissuades the city elves from tryng to flee to the Dalish clans, and it motivates the human nobility and peasantry to take it upon themselves to keep the city elves in line, and prevent them from doing anything to advance their own prospects, either as individuals or as a community. Not to mention that the Chantry's own doctrine demands they convert any unbelievers they come across. The villainisation of alternate faiths/beliefs is a requirement of being a practicing member of the Chantry.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 avril 2013 - 08:38 .

[andy6915]

Would a sacrifice be so easy to verify in DA? If the sacrifice was magical in nature, it could possibly lack the usual evidence that sacrifices usually leave. So a lack of evidence doesn't mean anything to the claim the chantry makes about ancient elves.

I'm skeptical too... Of BOTH sides. Like I said, I don't fully believe the chantry or the elves version of history.

No reason to hide it? That assumes the elves themselves aren't ashamed of it and thus keep it under the rug. Or assumes that it's actually known to any Dalish except the Keepers (who get to learn knowledge and lore that the rest of the clan isn't privy to). Or assumes that the Dalish know at all and don't even have enough knowledge of their own history to have an idea. Besides, Dalish LOVE making humans the scapegoat... Admitting humans had reasons to wipe out their culture would run counter to that. If they admit they actually did sacrifice humans, it would be admitting to themselves that the humans actually had a damn good reason and that they're in no position to finger point at humans for being awful and would be hypocrites to do so. There's PLENTY of reason for Dalish to argue the Chantry version, true or not.

[Nerys]

It is possible that, even if we can't help the elves in the main quest, we may be able to assist them in a side quest. Or the choice of helping the elves Vs. not helping them could be one chapter of the game. I would SO love that. Elves are my favorite

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, I rather assumed it was inferred.  

Again, no. You can't infer a series of very significant qualifications relating to population demogrpahics from an exagerated statement trying to suggest that its perfectly rational for elves to what to be completed segregated from humans, because of fears over reproduction. 

The statement is not sensible. 

However, not all elves need to mate with humans for this to happen; if any do, and the elven population continues in its decline, then every elf/human pairing is another elven line destroyed.

See what I mean? You are basically accusing elves that fall in loves with humans to, basically, be betraying their entire species.

Let's parse your statement: "[n]ot all elves" have to do it it, but "if any" (i.e., if even one does, because that's what the phrase means!)) do it and if the elven population "continues decline" (both of which are effectively meaningless, quantitatively, and very reserved qualifications at that), then the conclusion is " every elf/human pairing is"  (and here we have the massive register shift to the absurd) "another elven line destroyed". 

This is absolutely the kind of talk that the wackjob racial purity types use. 

Well, they don't either. Especially not after the Reaper war.

Okay, let's play your game: 

"However, not all elves humans need to mate with humans  asari for this to happen; if any do, and the elven human population continues in its decline, then every elf asari/human pairing is another elven human line destroyed."

After the reaper war, Earth is a ruined husk. Earth was the source of the greatest fighting. The asari entire worlds, beside Thesia, that billions of lives. Human colonies that were not-Earth had hundreds of thousands. There were no "trillions" of humans in ME. Humans (especially) were the target of massive reaper genocide. 

Real-world genetics, specifically. Scientific thinking works everywhere.

Of course. But that requires information about mechanics, which we have none. You can't draw inferences when you don't have information. That's one of the basic principles of the scientific method. Get data first. 

True, but Thedas doesn't have a higher-order name for it yet. The point is that they're not the same species.

Again - if we use our own definition of "species" then the crucial feature, viable offspring, is there. It's far more likely that, IRL, if we actually discovered a species that reproduced this way there would be a massive controversy about how to adapt our taxonomy and theory of what it is that demarcates species. 

You can't use the word "species" to make your point, beyond pressuposing your conclusion. Because what makes a "species" is a very live debate, and would a much greater debate if something like human + elf = viable human was possible, and discovered. 

In which case it'd be a problem with all races, not just human.

Right. So the solution is more racial segregation. To keep the race pure. Right.

It's not about racial purity, it's about preserving a distinct and endangered species.

The elves are an "endangered species"? That's just offensive. They're not a plant or a panda that we keep in a zoo. They're a people, and they're individuals, and they have a right to self-determination. And ths idea of subsuming individual identity into some greater national (or racial) whole in itself problematic. 

But it's absolutely about racial purity: because let's quote you again: "every elf/human pairing is another elven line destroyed". This is what our crazy racists say about (e.g.) interracial marriage! 

Edit: If every single elf in the Dales had decide to marry a human, and all of their children were raised in elven culture, idenitied as elves, and continued all of their traditions, belies and practices without object, you'd come around and say that none of them were really elves, and that the elves are extinct, because whatever physiology the elves had is gone. That's what makes it about racial purity. 

If the Quickening isn't caused just by human presence, or doesn't exist, then of course, racial segregation for that purpose would be unnecessary. However, if it is, it's wholly justified; it's simply protecting the elves from a disease that humans apparently literally cannot stop themselves from spreading (unless they can, in which case we do that, or inoculate the elves, or whatever, and the problem is solved).

Going with the "let's humour" this line of reasoning, the reason your argument is logical tossed salad is that even if there was some mechanism by which elves magically became not immortal because of people, then segregation is still completely idiotic unless there's an actual known mechanism for it. 

Which is to say, even if we start from the premise that everything we know about the quickening is 100% true, everything that the Dales did is still (i) stupid and (ii) clearly motivated by (if you're right about what the motivation is) racial purity and offensive ideology and not any kind of sense. 

And that's because - to use your line about scientific thinking - no mechanism. Maybe a single human in LOS means death. Maybe a single human alive on Thedas means death. Maybe humans over the age of 25 who have used bloodmagic more than three times in the past two days and physical touch elves is the cause. 

All of which is to say that the elves could still all be dying as a lot because they have no actual explanation for this, or even how to stop it. And what if the answer was that "single living human" = "no immortal elves"? Would you start advocating for genocide? 

Modifié par In Exile, 10 avril 2013 - 03:02 .

[Karlone123]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, I rather assumed it was inferred.  

Again, no. You can't infer a series of very significant qualifications relating to population demogrpahics from an exagerated statement trying to suggest that its perfectly rational for elves to what to be completed segregated from humans, because of fears over reproduction. 

The statement is not sensible. 

However, not all elves need to mate with humans for this to happen; if any do, and the elven population continues in its decline, then every elf/human pairing is another elven line destroyed.

See what I mean? You are basically accusing elves that fall in loves with humans to, basically, be betraying their entire species.

Let's parse your statement: "[n]ot all elves" have to do it it, but "if any" (i.e., if even one does, because that's what the phrase means!)) do it and if the elven population "continues decline" (both of which are effectively meaningless, quantitatively, and very reserved qualifications at that), then the conclusion is " every elf/human pairing is"  (and here we have the massive register shift to the absurd) "another elven line destroyed". 

This is absolutely the kind of talk that the wackjob racial purity types use. 

Well, they don't either. Especially not after the Reaper war.

Okay, let's play your game: 

"However, not all elves humans need to mate with humans  asari for this to happen; if any do, and the elven human population continues in its decline, then every elf asari/human pairing is another elven human line destroyed."

After the reaper war, Earth is a ruined husk. Earth was the source of the greatest fighting. The asari entire worlds, beside Thesia, that billions of lives. Human colonies that were not-Earth had hundreds of thousands. There were no "trillions" of humans in ME. Humans (especially) were the target of massive reaper genocide. 

Real-world genetics, specifically. Scientific thinking works everywhere.

Of course. But that requires information about mechanics, which we have none. You can't draw inferences when you don't have information. That's one of the basic principles of the scientific method. Get data first. 

True, but Thedas doesn't have a higher-order name for it yet. The point is that they're not the same species.

Again - if we use our own definition of "species" then the crucial feature, viable offspring, is there. It's far more likely that, IRL, if we actually discovered a species that reproduced this way there would be a massive controversy about how to adapt our taxonomy and theory of what it is that demarcates species. 

You can't use the word "species" to make your point, beyond pressuposing your conclusion. Because what makes a "species" is a very live debate, and would a much greater debate if something like human + elf = viable human was possible, and discovered. 

In which case it'd be a problem with all races, not just human.

Right. So the solution is more racial segregation. To keep the race pure. Right.

It's not about racial purity, it's about preserving a distinct and endangered species.

The elves are an "endangered species"? That's just offensive. They're not a plant or a panda that we keep in a zoo. They're a people, and they're individuals, and they have a right to self-determination. And ths idea of subsuming individual identity into some greater national (or racial) whole in itself problematic. 

But it's absolutely about racial purity: because let's quote you again: "every elf/human pairing is another elven line destroyed". This is what our crazy racists say about (e.g.) interracial marriage! 

Edit: If every single elf in the Dales had decide to marry a human, and all of their children were raised in elven culture, idenitied as elves, and continued all of their traditions, belies and practices without object, you'd come around and say that none of them were really elves, and that the elves are extinct, because whatever physiology the elves had is gone. That's what makes it about racial purity. 

If the Quickening isn't caused just by human presence, or doesn't exist, then of course, racial segregation for that purpose would be unnecessary. However, if it is, it's wholly justified; it's simply protecting the elves from a disease that humans apparently literally cannot stop themselves from spreading (unless they can, in which case we do that, or inoculate the elves, or whatever, and the problem is solved).

Going with the "let's humour" this line of reasoning, the reason your argument is logical tossed salad is that even if there was some mechanism by which elves magically became not immortal because of people, then segregation is still completely idiotic unless there's an actual known mechanism for it. 

Which is to say, even if we start from the premise that everything we know about the quickening is 100% true, everything that the Dales did is still (i) stupid and (ii) clearly motivated by (if you're right about what the motivation is) racial purity and offensive ideology and not any kind of sense. 

And that's because - to use your line about scientific thinking - no mechanism. Maybe a single human in LOS means death. Maybe a single human alive on Thedas means death. Maybe humans over the age of 25 who have used bloodmagic more than three times in the past two days and physical touch elves is the cause. 

All of which is to say that the elves could still all be dying as a lot because they have no actual explanation for this, or even how to stop it. And what if the answer was that "single living human" = "no immortal elves"? Would you start advocating for genocide? 

It's good to see people engage in debate, lets just keep it friendly so this doesn't get locked down due to hostility that may get worse.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory tends to provoke a response by the people who were invaded. [/quote]

Which people, and whose soldiers? Both the elves and the Orlesians are claiming to be the victims. But again - you're totally right: acting in self-defence in response to a military invasion is a perfectly legitimate justification for violence. [/quote]

I'm inclined to think that the empire that has a history of conquering nations and forcing people to convert to the Chantry may have, possibly, conquered the Dales in order to force the elves to convert.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

What isn't a justifcation for violence is an argument in favour of segregation on the basis of racial lines for the purpose of maintaining racial purity to (eventually) breed a race of immortal ubermensch. That's, again, really, really creepy. [/quote]

When the alternative is living in submission to human rule, it's not too difficult to understand why the elves would want to be left alone. Drakon was building his empire through conquest, and forcing his new subjects to convert to his newly created religion. I'm not certain why you think the elves would want to establish relations with a hostile nation that would never respect their right to worship the Creators, or to have their own culture. Having mages who aren't under Chantry control is another issue as well, since mages weren't controlled by templars in the Dales.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

The reason the debate has dragged on this long is that you are support the second paragraph, but pretending like it's the first paragraph. These. Are. Not. The. Same. Thing. [/quote]

That's because we already know the elves wanted to restore a culture they lost due to centuries of being enslaved by humans and reclaim their immortality - which the elves believe was lost because of contact with humans.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your statement has nothing to do with why the elves of the Dales were keeping themselves seperate from the imperialists neighboring their nation. The fact is the elves were trying to reclaim their immortality, which (they believe) was lost because of their contact with humans, [/quote]

Again: it is hard to imagine a more offensive and unjustifiable motive for taking the life of other people than the desire to maintain strict segregation on racial lines for the purpose of maintain racial purity and breeding ubermensch. 

If the elves believe that they are racially superior and need to keep themselves free from human "contaminants", then their motivations are absolutely vile. [/quote]

I don't think Nietzsche had the elves in mind when he proposed his view of the ubermensch, and it doesn't really jive with what the elves were trying to do, especially since they believe in gods - specifically, the Creators. The People believe they were once immortal, and the elves of the Dales wanted to reclaim their immortality.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

and which Gaider has already addressed could be true because the City Elves only live as long as ordinary humans, while the generations of Dalish elves who live seperate from humans live longer and longer lives. [/quote]

No. This is not how logic works. Even if its true that elves live longer than humans, that doesn't mean that elves ever were (or could be) immortal. The krogan and asari in ME live a lot longer than people, but neither are functionally ageless or immortal. [/quote]

Actually, that's precisely how logic works - if the generations of elves who live lives away from humans live longer than their city brethern, to the point of living longer and longer lives depending on how many generations they have lived seperate from humans, then that does suggest that the elves may be correct the adverse effect that human interaction has on their life span. That's precisely how logic works.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering there's absolutely no basis for your claim in Dalish lore or from the People, I'm not the least bit surprised. [/quote]

And we're right back to it. How does my getting really worried about your apparent support for segregation and murder justified on the basis of racial purity relate to anything about in-game lore? [/quote]

You mean my support for respecting the rights of elves to worship their own gods and not be conquered by the Chantry of Andraste and their symbiotic, imperialistic empire?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Does this entry have anything to do with what the Dragon Age developers said? [/quote]

Yeah, it does. Saying something is "magic" doesn't suddenly mean you don't have to have a mechanism available to justify any kind of inference from it. I understand that for you, "inference" means "consequence Lob likes" and "logic" means "process that gets Lob to consequence Lob likes", but try playing by the rules the rest of the world goes by for a bit. Humour me here. [/quote]

I can't humor you when the developers have said there may be a magical reason behind humans and elves giving birth to human children, and you're basically trying to handwave this possibility with information outside of the lore of Dragon Age.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers suggested that there may be a magical reason behind humans and elves only being able to have human children, and they had made it clear that the reason wasn't for scientific or genetic reasons. I'm not seeing any correlation between your entry and what the Dragon Age developers have suggested. [/quote]

Again: saying it's "magic" doesn't suddenly excuse you from needing a formal mechanism to draw inferences from before drawing inferences. [/quote]

Except you're providing information that has nothing to do with Dragon Age to support your argument. It would be no different than if I said that elves should live for centuries because the Tolkien elves do - even though Tolkien's fantasy universe isn't the same as the realm of Dragon Age.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Do you realize your theory has no basis in the lore, when an explanation was already provided as to why the elves were isolating themselves from the empire that was invading its neighbors? The elves wanted to regain their lost immortality . [/quote]

That's the racist and offensive motivation! The elves wanted to "regain" their immortality apparently means "complete isolation from humans" enforced by military might. [/quote]

The Emerald Knights are keeping out an empire of invaders who are taking territory and forcing their new subjects to submit to their religion. It's not racist or offensive for the elves to want to keep their culture and religion when the Orlesian Empire has respect for neither.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

So what you have is a nation that uses military power to enforce segregation of the races  so that it can keep only elves to eventually become immortal. [/quote]

You mean keeping out the humans who want to force the elves to submit to their rule.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

In other wises, a nation uses military power to maintain racial purity to eventually become a race of ubermensch. [/quote]

Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We also know they wanted to restore their culture, and refused to abandon the worship of their gods when the humans were turning to worship of the Maker. [/quote]

All perfectly legitimate reasons. None of which have anything to do with an offensive ideology of racial purity that you're happily cheering on. [/quote]

Except we already know this isn't the case from the story of Aveline and Feynriel, two humans who are accepted by different Dalish clans, or their treaty with the Grey Wardens, which seems to have been forged after the elves lost their homeland when the humans sacked their nation.

You seem to take issue with the Dales keeping out an invader - which, honestly, makes no sense to me. I'm not sure why you're surprised that the Dales were refusing to allow a conquering empire to enter their lands. Are you honestly that shocked that the elves didn't want to be conquered? Are you surprised that the elves refused to let possible spies into their midst? Are you taking issue with the elves refusing to convert to the human religion when they had their own?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Coming up an explanation from your imagination and acting like it's fact isn't really changing anyone's mind here [/quote]

I'm not coming up with any explanation. You are. You're the one (and Xil too) that keeps bringing up the immortaility thing as somehow justifying violent miltary action and segregation. That's what makes super offensive. [/quote]

Xil and I invented the ancient elves being immortal? I have to respectfully disagree, because it's part of the lore of the Dalish: "Before the ages were named or numbered, our people were glorious and eternal and never-changing. They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshipped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, many Andrastians in Thedas are racist, as we know from the storyline in Origins, Awakening, Dragon Age II, and the Dragon Age novels. It's not a matter up for debate. Duncan even notes (to the protagonist) his difficulty in convincing people that elves are people, because of the traditional views some Andrastians hold that elves as less than people. [/quote]

Absolutely. Their attitudes are offensive. Just like an attitude that enforced racial segregation to maintain racial purity is offensive. But you're apparently pro that one, so I'm not sure how your mind is working here. [/quote]

Except the Dalish already address their ancestors' focus with the Dales: "We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is a reason I detest the Andrastian Chantry and their moral superiority over all others, from elves to non-Andrastians. [/quote]

But it makes you appalud when the elves use the same BS justification? Because... why, exactly? You like elves, so it's not racist or offensive when they do it? That's... really, really hypocritical. [/quote]

That's because the only one who thinks this has anything to do with racial purity is you. No in-game author, no character, and no developer has made any statement to support this line of thought. What we do know is that the elves were trying to restore their culture and reclaim their immortality, while their neighbor was conquering other nations and forcibly converting the people to Drakon's specific religion.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Feynriel is human, it's an example of the Dalish taking in a human among them. [/quote]

Ye gods! Marethari is a traitor! Execute her now! She's giving up her immortality! Who knows when she might die of old age! 

... What's that? She lives for years after, with absolutely no ill effects, and no indication she would have passed away despite meeting a human and living with one? But that's absurd! That might mean this business with the quickining is a load of garbage, and nothing more than racial supremacy. But that would be silly! [/quote]

Except you're ignoring that the ancient elves were said to be immortal, and the comments from the developers that the Dalish who live away from humans live longer lives the more generations they live away from contact with humans.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the story of Aveline (who Dragon Age II's Aveline is named after) is one of the Dalish taking in a human child who had no magical ability, and wasn't part elf, you might want to come up with an explanation that doesn't immediately fall apart when you look at the lore. Just a suggestion. [/quote]

Dear gods More traitors! They're working against the elves to have them lose their immortality! Quick, build cages around them so that the humans can't infect them with their death disease! [/quote]

Except the Dalish clans already signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens to aid them during the Blight, and Keeper Zathrian (along with any other clans the Messenger comes into contact with) are willing to honor the terms of the treaty, so this isn't really much of a retort when the Dalish are willing to lend aid to humans (as long as it's not an invader trying to conquer them, apparently).

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which ignores that the elves of the Dales were trying to reclaim their immortality, [/quote]

Except for all those times they happily adopt humans into their claims because they're actually not a bunch of unhiged racist loons, but more worried about their culture and traditions. [/quote]

The elves of the Dales keeping out an imperialistic empire trying to conquer and convert them =/= the Dalish clans roaming Thedas because the Chantry and the Order of Templars hunt them down.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

as well as the fact that we have examples of the Dalish interacting with humans, taking in humans, and fighting alongside humans.  [/quote]

How dare those traitors! Were are the armed guards at the border? They're letting humans interact with them! They should be killing their diplomats and barring the gates to protect their immortality! [/quote]

You mean the elves of the Dales who were keeping out a nation of invaders? Are you seriously condemning the elves of the Dales for refusing to bend knee to Orlais and the Chantry?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The point of the elves in the Dales was that they were trying to reclaim their immortality, and they were keeping out a city-state of conquerers who were invading other city-states to establish an empire. [/quote]

So the point of the elves in the Dales were (i) to legitimate protect their culture; and (ii) to maintain racial segregation and racial purity to become ubermench. No, sorry, (ii) is still crazy racist. [/quote]

Except your point lies on the Dales keeping out Orlais - an empire created by Drakon as he conquered other nations in Exalted Marches, and forced his new subjects to convert to his Cult of Andraste turned nationalized religion. You're not making much of an argument by pointing out that the Dales were keeping out an empire of invaders. Just saying.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're also forgetting that Xil was pointing out that elves and humans produce human children. The developers have also pointed this out as well - it's not a matter up for debate. [/quote]

I'm not debating what. What I'm debating is the offensive implication that elf+ human = human somehow means that it's justifiable to draw the inference that this will lead to the elves being extinct. [/quote]

If the elves stopped procreating with each other, and only procreated with humans, then there would be no more elves. In this hypothetical scenario, that would mean that elves would be extinct, since humans + elves = human children.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Holy hell, that's like saying that if two humans who can't reproduce get married and raise a bunch of cats, they're leading us all to extiction because they're not making more humans! [/quote]

No one was saying that one human and one elf having a child would lead the race to extinction.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

You guy are the ones that keep coming up with all sorts of perfectly legitimate scenario and the giving the most offensive gloss this side of 1939. [/quote]

I'm not sure why you keep arguing a point that was made by multiple developers - that the children of elves and humans are human. It's not up for debate, no matter how you try to spin it. This has been mentioned by the developers; this is even noted in the Dragon Age novel "The Calling" when Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There is no such thing as "half-elvens", because the children of elves and humans produce human children. This was pointed out by Xil. This was mentioned by the developers. It's even acknowledged in "The Calling" by Fiona, when she explains to Maric why their son is human. [/quote]

Unless you've got the racial purity thing going on, the distinction is meaningless. [/quote]

How is it meaningless to point out that the children of humans and elves are human? This is part of the issue that you wanted to discuss.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If you want to have a debate with the developers over the fact that elves and humans produce human children, go right ahead. [/quote]

How does your mind work? How do you read? How do you go from what I said (see below) to this line about me having an issue with elf+human = human? 

But there's a mile of racist ideology between that and justifying your segregation on racial lines because of a belief in racial superiority (read: immortality) that would be pulluted by (i) the mere presence of humans (because humans magically make you mortal) or (ii) pairing with humans (because O-M-G your children will look physiologically human so the race is plunging toward extinction!) [/quote]

Because you're ignoring the fact that the children don't simply look physically human (according to your last line) - they are human, according to the developers of Dragon Age. It's not an issue that's up for debate any more than Merrill being a Dalish elf would be.

And your repeated claims about "racist ideology" simply have no basis with the information that we currently have, because there's quite a bit that contradicts your stance on the matter. Your main focus is on the nation of the Dales keeping out an empire that was focused on invading their neighbors, and their troubles with the Dales prevented Emperor Drakon from expanding north.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I certainly see racism in Thedas, however. The elves are forced to live in ghettos, they are viewed as less than human, and they had their culture and religion outlawed by the Chantry. That's certainly racist ideology right there. [/quote]

Absolutely. It's racist and appaling. Forced segregation in the alienage along racial lines? Nuts and offensive! Forced segregration along racial lines in the Dales? Apparently totally cool in your view. [/quote]

I don't recall the elves of the Dales preventing any elves from leaving the kingdom. Even the elves among the Dalish can leave if they choose to, as we see with Velanna and Merrill leaving their clans of their own volition. I'm well aware of the Dales keeping out their would be conquerers, however.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

A belief that elves are inferior and less than human? Racist and offensive! A belief that humans are a walking plague and contamination and a belief that it's justified to murder them to maintain a purely elven state so that the elves can become immortal? Totally not about keeping the race pure and become ubermensch. [/quote]

Except for the developers pointed out how this might be true, since the Dalish actually live longer depending on how many generations they have lived away from humans - to the point where it was mentioned that Zathrian wasn't the only Dalish who has lead an extraordinary long life.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Silly me. I should have realized that because you like the elves, your repeated attempts to justify an ideology of racial segregation and racial purity is A-OK. [/quote]

Considering my Surana Warden romanced Morrigan and my apostate Hawke was romantically paired with Merrill, that doesn't really make much sense.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the developers pointed out the generations of Dalish who live away from humans live longer lives, so your comparison doesn't really fit. [/quote]

Yes it does! Dales = live long lives. Americans = live long lives. Since your reasoning is literally the Dalish live a long time, therefore this justifies that they were once immortal, Americans living a long time (longer than Romanians) justifies not only that Americans are immortals, but that Romanians aren't! [/quote]

Except for how the developers explained that the Dalish live longer and longer depending on how many generations the elves have kept away from humans, leading to extraordinarily long lives, then it suggests the elves could be correct.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, the developers pointed out Zathrian wasn't the only example of a Dalish elf who has lived a long life. [/quote]

And Jeanne Calment lived 122 years, but that doesn't make humans immortal. [/quote]

Except the distinction was made by the developers that no Alienage elf lives an extraordinarily long life, while the Dalish have elves who live extraordinarily long lives.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for what the developers have said on the matter, of course. [/quote]

What does this even mean, and how does this relate to anything that I said, other than being a (pretty pathethic) dodge? [/quote]

I'm not dodging anything by pointing out that the developers have pointed out that the Dalish elves live longer lives the longer they live away from humans. It's not much of a retort for you to claim I'm dodging anything when I'm bringing up quotes by the developers about the longevity of the Dalish as an indication that the elves could be correct.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the elves weren't hurting Orlais by wanting to be left alone [/quote]

Unless they were the ones invading it. But that would be absurd. It would mean that the history of Thedas isn't the one you like, which (silly me) can't be true. [/quote]

I'm inclined to think that there's a possibility that the empire that was conquering it's neighbors might have conquered their neighbor.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Not to mention that, again, that's not at issue here. What's at issue is your defence of an outrageously racist idea. [/quote]

Keeping out conquerers who want to invade you and force you to convert to their religion isn't racist.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering you're labelling elves as racist for not permitting an empire of conquerers into their territory, and coming up with every inflammatory analogy available to vilify the elves' position in wanting to be left alone to reclaim their culture and regain their immortality  [/quote]

You're doing it again! Let me point this out for you: 

I say: The funny thing is, I agree that given Orlesian (and Andrastian) attitudes to elven culture that a forceful approach (up to and including proportional physical violence) is entirely justified. The elves most certainly have a (moral) claim to their culture and to protecting it. .  

You say: regain their immortality. What does that mean? It means (i) forced racial segregation; (ii) strict standards of racial purity (e.g.  elves breeding with humans will ultimately lead to the elves' extinction.); (iii) the drive to breed ubermensech (aforementioned immortality). [/quote]

No, it means the elves wanted to regain their immortality, keep out an empire that was trying to conquer virtually everyone around them in the name of the Maker, and the elves wanted to restore a culture that was almost lost because of centuries of slavery by humans.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

No, this stuff's not an acceptable ideology. Wanting to protect your people? Laudable. Wanting to protect your culture? Absolutely. Wanting to keep out invaders? Go for it! Want to keep out all humans, maintain a state of exclusive elves, consider any human+elf paraing as "ultimately lead[ing]" to "extinction" and believing in elven elven immortality that's lost because of "Humans ... disease[s] they spread" ... that's super, super creepy. 

[quote]when their Orlesian neighbor is conquering other nations and forcing the people to submit to Drakon's Cult of Andraste turned nationalized religion, I don't really think you're one to talk. [/quote]

How many more times can I say: Orlais = racist and bad for your brain to process that you can both think that current Andrastian society is racist and bad, while also thinking that any ideology of racial segregation and racial purity is equally bad? [/quote]

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore.

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore.

You say the Orlais weren't trust worthy, but all the issues come from the Dales; they put pressure on them during the founding of their empire, they didn't help during the blight (up to and including letting a town right on their boarder burn), they don't trade with Orlais after the war and finaly they move in to destory Orlais.

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

[Noctis Augustus]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore.

You say the Orlais weren't trust worthy, but all the issues come from the Dales; they put pressure on them during the founding of their empire, they didn't help during the blight (up to and including letting a town right on their boarder burn), they don't trade with Orlais after the war and finaly they move in to destory Orlais.

No, they were cut off from Orlais. The elves wanted to restore their lost language, religion and lore. Why would they bother conquering? Which is more credible, the elven account or the orlesian account? May I remind you that Orlais is a impirialistic nation with a national religion that's set on converting non-andrastians, by force if needed. The Chantry's goal is "to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world, that includes non-humans as well. The view of the Chantry on non-humans is that they need saving—they have turned even further from the Maker's grace than humanity has. Elves were, and in some cases still are, pagan and dwarves venerate The Stone.Once all peoples have accepted the Chant and practice its teachings, supposedly the Maker will return to the world and return it to its previous glorious state.", they objected the worship of the elven pantheon.

There are two different accounts of what happened. You can only choose the one that's more credible or outright ignore both. You can't claim that either is true.

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

... What?

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 01:22 .

[Kommunicating]

I like elves.

[RedArmyShogun]

OP the correct question to ask is, can you side with the Qunari. For only in the Qun may victory and peace be found.

[Lazy Jer]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

OP the correct question to ask is, can you side with the Qunari. For only in the Qun may victory and peace be found.

Victory and peace?  Sten looses his sword and can't go home because they'll kill him.  Because he lost his sword.  Loose your sword in the Ferelden Army....the other soldiers make fun of you.  No Qun for me.

[Ausstig]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore.

You say the Orlais weren't trust worthy, but all the issues come from the Dales; they put pressure on them during the founding of their empire, they didn't help during the blight (up to and including letting a town right on their boarder burn), they don't trade with Orlais after the war and finaly they move in to destory Orlais.

1. No, they were cut off from Orlais. The elves wanted to restore their lost language, religion and lore. Why would they bother conquering? Which is more credible, the elven account or the orlesian account? May I remind you that Orlais is a empirialistic nation with a national religion that's set on converting non-andrastians, by force if needed. The Chantry's goal is "to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world, that includes non-humans as well. The view of the Chantry on non-humans is that they need saving—they have turned even further from the Maker's grace than humanity has. Elves were, and in some cases still are, pagan and dwarves venerate The Stone.Once all peoples have accepted the Chant and practice its teachings, supposedly the Maker will return to the world and return it to its previous glorious state.", they objected the worship of the elven pantheon.

There are two different accounts of what happened. You can only choose the one that's more credible or outright ignore both. You can't claim that either is true.

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

2. ... What?

1. You say that but the Elves own actions condem them. They stayed out while the Blight burn cites, they refused to trade with a nation ravaged by 90 years of war and then they pressed their war into the heart of Orlais. How are the humans the bad guys again?


2. People in this thread are making racist arguments. I showed how these would be used in our world, by racist to justify racial segration, which is what these people are aruging for.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore. 

You say the Orlais weren't trust worthy, but all the issues come from the Dales; they put pressure on them during the founding of their empire, they didn't help during the blight (up to and including letting a town right on their boarder burn), they don't trade with Orlais after the war and finaly they move in to destory Orlais.

You mean Drakon was dealing with pressure from the Dales in his attempts to expand his empire by conquering other lands? Let's not forget the fact that you're defending an empire that was built on conquest and forcing the Andrastian religion on people. I'm also not sure why you think the elves should help an empire that caused them problems since it's inception and seemed to want to conquer them. And they don't trade with an empire of conquerors that have been invading their neighbors since day one; that isn't a surprise. I'm not finding your statements persuasive.

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Drakon was dealing with pressure from the Dales in his attempts to expand his empire by conquering other lands? Let's not forget the fact that you're defending an empire that was built on conquest and forcing the Andrastian religion on people. I'm also not sure why you think the elves should help an empire that caused them problems since it's inception and seemed to want to conquer them. And they don't trade with an empire of conquerors that have been invading their neighbors since day one; that isn't a surprise. I'm not finding your statements persuasive.

I'm not so sure this picture of early Orlais is all that accurate.

First of all, by the time war breaks out between the Dales and Orlais Kordilius Drakon I is 60 years dead. So whatever militaristic policies he had personally hardly matters. He ruled for 76 years (68 as emperor). If we assume he ascended to the Throne of Val Royeux the city state as a 15-year old that means he was 91 when he fied (he could very well have been older). So at the very youngest we're looking at a Kordilius Drakon II that is in his forties when he ascends the throne, but could very well be 60 or 70. So he's dead too. At the very least we're looking at a very elderly grandson of emperor Kordilius clinging to the throne by now, but it could very well be 4 or even 5 generations down the line.
So whatever policy Drakon I had matters very little since everyone that was around back then will be dead or extremely senile by the time the border disputes happens, and so will their children and grandchildren.

Also remember that the period theodosian civlisations are currently in is called "Rebuilding" and which been going on for 10 years. With a focus on recovery, culture, religion and trade. The entire age, Glory age, is named after the promise of a restored civilisation. 10 years is half a generation. So the losses of the Orlesian military following the Battle of Starkhaven are not fully restored yet.

This is 40 years after Anderfels wholesale broke off from Orlais. And it's in a period when Orlais is in fact losing territory made by Drakon. Without Anderfels and without Nevarra (not yet conquered by Orlais, that happens after the Dales), that means Orlais is only marginally larger than the Dales. Geographically that is. They might have a larger population, though a large part of Orlais is largely uninhabited to this day.

Drakon I did indeed order missionaries out in the world, but the large vector for spreading the religion in Nevarra, Free Marches and Antiva was the Grey Wardens. So the Chanto of Light were not primarily spread by the Orlesian sword outside of Orlais, but by the self-sacrefice of the wardens (ooh... fitting symbology, no wonder it worked so well).
He did wage holy war, but what would become Orlais was largely andrastian (though not chantry) at the time. More to the point however, lore suggest most wars were toward the north. Not the south. And that was well over 120 years prior to the war anyways. Ancient history. Unless the Quickening had reversed to such a degree that the elven elders were still alive (seems very unlikely since the Dalish don't make any such claims)
So either the missionaries, on Drakon's and his successor's orders, avoided the Dales (seems unlikely, the Dalish would have likely have held this as initial respect and then betrayal). Or they'd been a more or less constant phenomena for roughly 129 years by the time the war started. Even if we assume that it was the advent of the templars that made things spiral out of control, that still leaves us with a 89 years period between their inception and the war. Not to mention that they're essentially the defanged inquistion.

Another interesting tidbit. It's mentioned that it was pressure from the Dales that made Drakon I stop his plans on conquering the remaining Free Marches. This prior to the establishment of the Chantry. This suggests to me that there had been elven armies on the Dalish/Orlesian border 120 years prior to the war. Now, it's only reasonable to keep a first line of defence bordering a military and expansionistic state. But this suggests that they were big enough to make Kordilius pause. It also suggests that the elves were hinting that they'd not stand by as Orlais replaced Tevinter. Again, reasonable.
What's interesting is that is suggests the Dalish are a military power that Orlais respects.
During the second blight, 80 years prior to the war, there's mention on an elven army watching as Montsimmard burns. Response to the blight or is it perhaps the same force as might have been on the Orlesian border? (No, I don't expect an answer, there's no evidence either way)
Also, well worth noting that if the Darkspawn burned Montsimmard then the region adjacent to the dales is probably very depopulated.

Once the war started, it took the elves 1 year to conquer Montsimmard and besiege Val Royeux. Between Val Royeux and Montsimmard we have the cities Val Firmin, Val Foret and Velun. Val Firmin and Velun are a bit off so they could have been bypassed if the elves crossed lake Celestine or the river north of it. But they must have at the very least besieged Val Foret as well as Val Royeux. This means that 45 % (55 if Verchiel and Lydes are Orlesian and not Dalish) of Orlesian cities are behind the elven front in 1 years time. And it takes them 10 years and an Exalted March to beat the dalish back and take Halamshiral.
The Orlesians really sound unprepared for this war. Fits with that they're rebuilding. But not with the idea that they were gunning for conquest. Sure, their commanders could just have been incompetent I guess.

Now... to summarize.
Orlais has not been ruled by Drakon for 60 years.
Orlais is like the rest of Thedas undergoing the "Rebuilding".
The missionaries have been present for 130 years or intentionally ignored the Dales until then.
The templars are not a new phenomena.
The Dales are strongly suggested to have quite the military power.
Orlais is at it's weakest. It's not expanding, it's bleeding territory.
Not 10 years has gone since the second blight ended. Montsimmard is still likely a shadow of it's former self.
The Orlesians fare extremely poorly in the war.

If we assume that the Dalish attack was a response to aggressive attitudes in Orlais... I'll readily admit I have a slight pro-orlesian bias. I do. But something does not add up. Why is the elves suddenly reacting "defensively" to Orlais when it seems to be at it's weakest (and there's not a blight going on)? What happened in 2:5-2:9 that set these two nations on the path of war? What changed?

Something does not add up.

Sources: Dragon age wiki pages - Ages, Orlais, Dales, Exalted Marches, Nevarra, Kordilius Drakon I, codex entry: the Dales, codex entry: the long walk.

I hope we get to see more lore regarding this because now I'm really curious about this. And if the elves do show up as a side or a plot, then it'd be the perfect place. I seriosuly hope for more lore articles, more people talking about it. But most of all... I hope for monuments.
Because unlike written history, monuments are hard to rewrite. Wether it's glorious victory symbols or grave monuments will tell us a lot about what the Orlesian attitudes during the war and it's aftermath were.

Also, a side note, and interesting little tidbit I noticed while doing research for this post. the dalish accounts of codex entry: the Dales and The long walk both mention Orlais. But when the Dales were established their neighbour was the kingdom of Ciriane. It was not until 55 years later that Orlais was established as a nation, 70 years until the Chantry was established and 90 years until the Templars were established and 200 until the Dales were conquered.

Modifié par Sir JK, 13 avril 2013 - 09:13 .

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.

But you are using their words to justify a 'racial pure' state. I was pointing when people in our world used similar reteric. If you think that's not racist then I will with draw the statement.


I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could.

Modifié par Ausstig, 13 avril 2013 - 10:24 .

[Ziegrif]

Civil war in Orlais?
I am going to pick every single choice that screws up Orlais the worst.
If I can't destroy Orlais I will put the bigger more dangerous megalomaniac on the throne so they start wars and everyone else destroys Orlais for me.
I really REALLY don't seem to like Orlais... And I don't know why!

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?

The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.

But you are using their words to justify a 'racial pure' state. I was pointing when people in our world used similar reteric. If you think that's not racist then I will with draw the statement.


I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could.

...ok  and you not realize that  "black and white" it's still the same HUMAN RACE with just different skin pigmentation  because of the amount of solar radiation and places in which they live

on our real world and our planet live only HUMAN RACE with Yeti, as i know:D ...and Apes with Dolphins

but now imagine planet with Quarians and Turians,Salarians, Asari, Krogans, Vorcha, Batarians, Volus and Humans....races with their own lands, different cultures, biology, languages....and what, they not have a right to keep them, just because of one race...like Asari or Humans?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 13 avril 2013 - 11:34 .

[Sir JK]

Ziegrif wrote...

I really REALLY don't seem to like Orlais... And I don't know why!

Do you think the fact that the only cultures we've experienced thus far have had grudges with Orlais might have something to do with it?

[Xilizhra]

If we assume that the Dalish attack was a response to aggressive attitudes in Orlais... I'll readily admit I have a slight pro-orlesian bias. I do. But something does not add up. Why is the elves suddenly reacting "defensively" to Orlais when it seems to be at it's weakest (and there's not a blight going on)? What happened in 2:5-2:9 that set these two nations on the path of war? What changed?

Some idiot of an emperor trying to bluff about Orlais' strength to intimidate the elves into joining forces in some way, to serve as a buffer to Orlais while it was rebuilding. An ego that would deny any concept of defeat when that failed, and it's possible that the elves truly did see the threat as real. For instance.