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I wonder if we can side with the elves instead of Celene or Gaspard.


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#276
Ausstig

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Dark Korsar wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?


The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.


But you are using their words to justify a 'racial pure' state. I was pointing when people in our world used similar reteric. If you think that's not racist then I will with draw the statement.


I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could.

:huh:...ok  and you not realize that  "black and white" it's still the same HUMAN RACE with just different skin pigmentation  because of the amount of solar radiation and places in which they live

on our real world and our planet live only HUMAN RACE with Yeti, as i know:D ...and Apes with Dolphins

but now imagine planet with Quarians and Turians,Salarians, Asari, Krogans, Vorcha, Batarians, Volus and Humans....races with their own lands, different cultures, biology, languages....and what, they not have a right to keep them, just because of one race...like Asari or Humans?



For a time in Human history Blacks, Whites and Asians were considered (with some expections) to be as different as aliens, they had theire own culture, lands, languages and even (in a very minor if extremely noticable case different biology.I don't get why some people give the Elves a free pass when it comes to their version of events. And beyond that how they use this to justify racial purity.  

But if Elves and Humans can have kids (who can also have kids i asume) then they must be very closely related. As close as many early Human groups who crossed with our ancestors. ie Neanderthals, I know there other examples BUT my point is this; if the offspring of a Human and an Elf can it self reproduce they are very close, most hybrids are infertile but since we know that half Elves cn reproduce....


Xilizhra wrote...
Some idiot of an emperor trying to bluff
about Orlais' strength to intimidate the elves into joining forces in
some way, to serve as a buffer to Orlais while it was rebuilding. An ego
that would deny any concept of defeat when that failed, and it's
possible that the elves truly did see the threat as real. For
instance.


Or some racist Elf leader decides that now is a
golden time to take these humans down a peg and wips up some stories
about holy war and invades Orlais. Orlais too weak from the blight to
resist asks the Chantry for help and the Elves get a holy war.

See
I can make up stories too. We know nothing about the character of
Drakon the second so nothing we can say on him will have any weight. We
know his empire has lost ground and he has fought in a war for most of
his life, that is all.

Modifié par Ausstig, 13 avril 2013 - 01:16 .


#277
Ausstig

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Double post

Modifié par Ausstig, 13 avril 2013 - 01:16 .


#278
Noctis Augustus

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Ausstig wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales kept out a neighbor that wasn't trustworthy, they refused to adopt the beliefs of the Chantry of Andraste, and the people who have pointed out that humans + elves = human children are the posters on this board who are familiar with what the developers have said on the issue. I'm not sure how you seem to think your imagination is on par with what is actually in the lore.


You say the Orlais weren't trust worthy, but all the issues come from the Dales; they put pressure on them during the founding of their empire, they didn't help during the blight (up to and including letting a town right on their boarder burn), they don't trade with Orlais after the war and finaly they move in to destory Orlais.


1. No, they were cut off from Orlais. The elves wanted to restore their lost language, religion and lore. Why would they bother conquering? Which is more credible, the elven account or the orlesian account? May I remind you that Orlais is a empirialistic nation with a national religion that's set on converting non-andrastians, by force if needed. The Chantry's goal is "to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world, that includes non-humans as well. The view of the Chantry on non-humans is that they need saving—they have turned even further from the Maker's grace than humanity has. Elves were, and in some cases still are, pagan and dwarves venerate The Stone.Once all peoples have accepted the Chant and practice its teachings, supposedly the Maker will return to the world and return it to its previous glorious state.", they objected the worship of the elven pantheon.

There are two different accounts of what happened. You can only choose the one that's more credible or outright ignore both. You can't claim that either is true.

Ausstig wrote...

Now about the Human+Elf=Human. How would that sound in our world; Black+White=Black. For that, that raciest view has been unmasked as what it is, how can you defend it?


2. ... What?



1. You say that but the Elves own actions condem them. They stayed out while the Blight burn cites, they refused to trade with a nation ravaged by 90 years of war and then they pressed their war into the heart of Orlais. How are the humans the bad guys again?


2. People in this thread are making racist arguments. I showed how these would be used in our world, by racist to justify racial segration, which is what these people are aruging for.


1. That's the orlesian account. I don't exactly see them as the "bad guys" but their actions make me dislike them even more.

2. Elves live longer if they are isolated from humans, people tend to want to live longer lives therefore the elves cut themselves off from humans to regain their immortality... Although the primary reasons were the ones I mentioned. I'm not seeing any racism here, it's not like they outright treat humans as an inferior race.

#279
Sir JK

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Xilizhra wrote...

Some idiot of an emperor trying to bluff about Orlais' strength to intimidate the elves into joining forces in some way, to serve as a buffer to Orlais while it was rebuilding. An ego that would deny any concept of defeat when that failed, and it's possible that the elves truly did see the threat as real. For instance.


Hahaha... talk about diplomatic blunder. Try to get an ally and start a war. I get where you're coming from, though I should point out that nothing is monolithic. Not even Orlais. The militaristic superstate of today is probably vastly different from Rebuilding Orlais from early Glory. Still... I would not be sad if you were correct. It'd be too funny if they did have that an incompetent an emperor back then.

But might I float another theory? One that is a pure speculative guess on my part:
The humans repopulating the Montsimmard region were getting too close to comfort. When the Orlesians were driven away by the second blight 80 years prior, no elves lived close to them. In the time between elves settled close to the border, and as human population starts rising in the area again it puts the Quickening and isolation policy at risk. This causes tension and makes the elves lash out against the increasing number of missionaries also moving in the area.
Again, just a guess. This one does not have any evidence backing it. Though it fits with what we know.

#280
Ziegrif

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Sir JK wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

I really REALLY don't seem to like Orlais... And I don't know why!


Do you think the fact that the only cultures we've experienced thus far have had grudges with Orlais might have something to do with it? ;)


Or it's the accents.
Those drive me off the walls. @-@

#281
LobselVith8

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Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.


But you are using their words to justify a 'racial pure' state. I was pointing when people in our world used similar reteric. If you think that's not racist then I will with draw the statement.


No, I'm pointing out that you're not making any sense in calling people 'racist' for addressing the fact that the children of elves and humans are human.

Also, I justify the right of the elves to worship their own gods and have their own culture without being subjugated by the Chantry or their Orlesian benefactor. Saying that the elves were racist for refusing to let an empire of conquerors into their nation is another point that doesn't compute with me.

Ausstig wrote...

I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could. 


Except we already have the Dalish and the elven Warden addressing the historical account of the Chantry invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert to the Andrastian religion. That's the alternative to the Orlesian account of the fall of the Dales.

#282
Asdrubael Vect

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ORLAIS

"Aristocrats in Orlais are notorious for their hedonism and extravagance, and sexual relations with multiple partners of either sex are not uncommon. The peasantry is much less tolerant of such behavior, at least in public. The Emperror Florian reputedly had an affair with his cousin Megren, which resulted in Meghren being banished from Orlais to Ferelden. The scandal surrounding their relationship was likely due to their being related, however, not to the fact that they were both men"

QUNARI

 "Qunari don't have "family units". They don't marry or choose partners. Qunari do not even know to whom they are related. A Qunari's "family" are his or her coworkers.They also don't generally associate mating with love. They feel love. They have friends. They form emotional bonds with one another. They just don't sleep with each other to express it. And if they do, they get re-educated by the Ben-Hassrath. If such a thing occurred and produced a child, the same thing would happen to the offspring as happens to all other Qunari offspring: It would be raised by the Tamassrans, evaluated, and assigned a job. Qunari don't waste people unnecessarily.Whether same-sex attractions are frowned upon or otherwise by the Qunari is currently unknown"

DWARVES OF ORZAMMAR

"The Dwarves are noted for their polyamory (the keeping of multiple intimate partners), especially among the upper classes. While a dwarf has only one legal spouse, many nobles keep concubines, who are considered part of the household and have their names recorded in the Memories. A dwarf's caste is determined by that of their same-sex parent, so many commoners offer themselves to nobles as sexual partners in the hopes of producing a child of the noble's gender. As dwarven fertility is in dangerous decline, any noble child is considered a blessing, and such offers are rarely turned down. If such a union produces a child of the commoner's gender, however, the infant will be disposed of, as it would be part of the lower caste and an embarrassment to the noble parent's house."

CITY ELVES

"Among city elves, marriage is a rite of passage, the single greatest thing that distinguishes children from adults. Elven children are usually matched by their parents and the Alienage elders, and the bride and groom often will not have met each other before the marriage ceremony. Betrothals are often made between families from different Alienages in order to promote inter-city trade and relations, as well as to bring new elves into the Alienage community. Marriage ceremonies require the approval of the Chantry, and are officiated by one of the Chantry priests. In a community where there is mostly little cause for celebration, a wedding is a tremendous affair, and the whole district will turn out to enjoy the feasting and dancing."

DALISH

"Not much is known about the Dalish, and the same holds true for their views on sexuality and marriage. The Dalish appear to be more in line with Fereldan thinking rather than other cultures like Orlais. This meaning that they tend to take relationships slowly and seriously with each other. Once they have come of age, they may choose a mate of the opposite sex with whom to bond for life. It is unknown how they view same-sex relationships, but there seems to be no stigma against it other than for the fact it will not produce a child for the dying race. As with most cultures, the Dalish do not approve of interspecies romance, and it is forbidden by them. To even dally with a human could earn exile from one's clan. This likely stems from both past hatreds and the fact that "pure elves" or Dalish are becoming increasingly rare."

INTERSPECIES RELATIONSHIP

" Interspecies relationships are possible in some circumstances, but frequently frowned upon by one or both of the parents' cultures.

Elves, for example, are bound only to produce children with their own kind because their race is DYING, and a child of such a relationship would be PURE HUMAN. Relationships with humans are considered traitorous, and any elf who conceives a child by a human risks expulsion from his or her community.

Dwarves and humans can also reproduce (such a union will produce a half-dwarf), but this is very rare, as dwarves consider humans to be lesser races."

SAME-GENDER RELATIONSHIP

"Same-sex relations are generally considered odd but not immoral in Ferelden. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for (if not encouragement of) relations with multiple partners of either sex. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring"

CHANTRY(non-Tevinter)

"According to the Chant of Light,  Andraste had a spiritual marriage with the Maker. All Andrastian priests are therefore symbolically wedded to the Maker and sworn to celibacy. In the eyes of the Chantry, marriage is both a celebration of tradition and a practical decision. Through a favorable marriage, one can make valuable connections, improve one's social standing, and secure financial stability for oneself and one's family. Love is not necessary for a successful marriage but is nonetheless desirable, as it makes the union stronger. The Chantry permits annulments but not outright divorce."

MAGES(Andrastian-Circle)

"Mages, because of their outsider status, are not bound to traditional social mores and consequently enjoy greater sexual freedom than most. They are discouraged from marrying and reproducing, as the offspring of mages are very likely to possess magical ability themselves. Some form of birth control or abortion being readily available to mages, perhaps to discourage the propagation of magically gifted children. If a mage does produce a child, it is taken from the parents at birth and raised under the supervision of the Chantry. Those children who prove to have magical ability are immediately transferred to the ], where they are held in complete isolation and taught to control their powers. Mages who do not wish to be separated from their children will sometimes conceal them from the Chantry and either train the child themselves or hire an apostate as a tutor (as with Connor and Isolde)"

GREY WARDENS

"Although Grey Wardens are not forbidden from marrying, it is rare for them to do so. Their short lifespans make them poor candidates for parenthood or long-term relationships. Even if they are not killed in battle against the darkspawn, they rarely survive past middle age due to the darkspawn taint. Most Grey Wardens dedicate their brief lives to fulfilling their duty, leaving them little time for pursuits such as family life. Furthermore, the taint makes conceiving a child very difficult (nearly impossible if both partners are Grey Wardens)."


-David Gaider

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 13 avril 2013 - 06:08 .


#283
Senya

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I understand the elven viewpoint and if implemented perfectly, there would be nothing that would put them in the wrong. However, isolation is not practical economically or diplomatically and I could see an incident or misunderstanding flaring up things easily. And this is a grey/dark world by Bioware own admission.

To be honest, I want the full facts before making any judgments on what happened.

#284
Ausstig

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers said the children of humans and elves are human. Fiona explains to Maric that their son is human. There's no need to call people racist for pointing out what the developers have said on the matter.


But you are using their words to justify a 'racial pure' state. I was pointing when people in our world used similar reteric. If you think that's not racist then I will with draw the statement.


1. No, I'm pointing out that you're not making any sense in calling people 'racist' for addressing the fact that the children of elves and humans are human.

2. Also, I justify the right of the elves to worship their own gods and have their own culture without being subjugated by the Chantry or their Orlesian benefactor. Saying that the elves were racist for refusing to let an empire of conquerors into their nation is another point that doesn't compute with me.

Ausstig wrote...

I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could. 


3. Except we already have the Dalish and the elven Warden addressing the historical account of the Chantry invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert to the Andrastian religion. That's the alternative to the Orlesian account of the fall of the Dales.



1. So is it not racist to say that the children of Blacks and Whites are Black? (Unless it's Australian Aborigines, in which case they get whiter)

2. The Elves have the right to do that. What they don't have the right to do is close themselves off from the world. They don't have the right to let the Darkspawn sack a town right on their boarder. You talke as if letting some Humans in would turn all the Elves into slaves.

3. Read Sir K's post again. We are not talking about the codex or the fall of the Dales. We are talking about the historical context. There are facts which do not suppourt the 'poor attacked Elves' arguments that you make. Do you deny that Orlais has been weakened by 90 years of war?  

#285
LobselVith8

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Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

1. No, I'm pointing out that you're not making any sense in calling people 'racist' for addressing the fact that the children of elves and humans are human.

2. Also, I justify the right of the elves to worship their own gods and have their own culture without being subjugated by the Chantry or their Orlesian benefactor. Saying that the elves were racist for refusing to let an empire of conquerors into their nation is another point that doesn't compute with me.

Ausstig wrote...

I am glad that Sir K could present the arguments that I have tried to make so much better then I ever could. 


3. Except we already have the Dalish and the elven Warden addressing the historical account of the Chantry invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert to the Andrastian religion. That's the alternative to the Orlesian account of the fall of the Dales.


Ausstig wrote...

1. So is it not racist to say that the children of Blacks and Whites are Black? (Unless it's Australian Aborigines, in which case they get whiter)


All the people on this planet are human. That isn't the case for Thedas. Elves and humans have human children; this is what the developers said on the matter. Why are you trying to debate this point with me simply because I pointed out what the creators of Dragon Age said? Why must I repeatedly point this out to you in every single reply? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please stop trying to conflate real world people and real life racism with fictional fantasy races who are literally different races. Humans aren't elves; elves aren't human. And the children of elves and humans are human because that's what the developers decided on.

Ausstig wrote...

2. The Elves have the right to do that. What they don't have the right to do is close themselves off from the world. They don't have the right to let the Darkspawn sack a town right on their boarder. You talke as if letting some Humans in would turn all the Elves into slaves.


Incorrect. The elves aren't under any obligation to allow anyone into their sovereign territory, especially hostile humans who have no respect for their culture or their religion.

Ausstig wrote...

3. Read Sir K's post again. We are not talking about the codex or the fall of the Dales. We are talking about the historical context. There are facts which do not suppourt the 'poor attacked Elves' arguments that you make. Do you deny that Orlais has been weakened by 90 years of war?  


The historical context is that the elves of the Dales kept out an empire known for invading its neighbors. And none of the facts dismiss the Dalish version of events as untrue. Also, Orlais invaded Nevarra after the Third Blight, so your latter point can be viewed in that context.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 avril 2013 - 12:43 .


#286
Senya

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^^

Empire or not, if it is true that the elves refused to aid in a Blight, they did violate a treaty held with the Grey Wardens at the very least.

Again, I would repeat my above statement that, given Thedas is grey/dark, I wouldn't say there's a clear-cut evil/good guy if I'm forced to make any assumption at all.

Both the Dalish and Orlais probably did write their history to make themselves look good.

#287
MisterJB

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LobselVith8 wrote...
All the people on this planet are human. That isn't the case for Thedas. Elves and humans have human children; this is what the developers said on the matter. Why are you trying to debate this point with me simply because I pointed out what the creators of Dragon Age said? Why must I repeatedly point this out to you in every single reply? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please stop trying to conflate real world people and real life racism with fictional fantasy races who are literally different races. Humans aren't elves; elves aren't human. And the children of elves and humans are human because that's what the developers decided on.

But what is the measure of humanity? What makes the elves non-human? They have distinguishing physical characteristics such as a leaner and smaller constitution whereas humans are taller and broader of chest and shoulder or their ears which are pointier than human ears.
Honestly, there, arguably, bigger difference between the different races of humans in our planet. Races who, much like humans and elves, developed in different continents. Therefore, why is it acceptable to defend the segregation of humans and elves but not the segregation of europeans and africans?
It seems to me that if you oppose one, you must oppose the other. Interracial procreation in our world also produces offspring with racial characteristics that will favor one race over the other.

Elves aren't human, human aren't elves. Europeans aren't african, africans aren't european.

Incorrect. The elves aren't under any obligation to allow anyone into their sovereign territory, especially hostile humans who have no respect for their culture or their religion.

No, they aren't. Some us of simply consider their xenophobia and isolation to be both an unwise and morally repugnant action.

The historical context is that the elves of the Dales kept out an empire known for invading its neighbors. And none of the facts dismiss the Dalish version of events as untrue. Also, Orlais invaded Nevarra after the Third Blight, so your latter point can be viewed in that context.

Not disprove it, no. But we know for a fact they are not telling the whole story. All elves we have met have ommited the fact they sacked Val-Royeaux.
If they are not willing to own up to that particular attrocity, what else are they choosing to ignore because it doesn't make them look good?

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 avril 2013 - 01:48 .


#288
Xilizhra

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But what is the measure of humanity? What makes the elves non-human? They have distinguishing physical characteristics such as a leaner and smaller constitution whereas humans are taller and broader of chest and shoulder or their ears which are pointier than human ears.

Also, they have a completely different skeletal structure.

Honestly, there, arguably, bigger difference between the different races of humans in our planet. Races who, much like humans and elves, developed in different continents. Therefore, why is it acceptable to defend the segregation of humans and elves but not the segregation of europeans and africans?

This is absurd. Pointed ears alone are something that no other human race has, and speak of a reasonably different evolutionary path; none of humanity's direct simian ancestors have had pointed ears. And that, of course, ignores the completely different skeletal structure.

#289
MisterJB

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Xilizhra wrote...
This is absurd. Pointed ears alone are something that no other human race has, and speak of a reasonably different evolutionary path; none of humanity's direct simian ancestors have had pointed ears. And that, of course, ignores the completely different skeletal structure.

Pointed ears? You are honestly going to say that pointed ears makes more of a distinction worthy of preservation between humans and elves than anything that differs between the human races? It's about as relevant as the lip size.

I can't speak for skeletal structure given that neither anthropology nor biology are my fields of study but I doubt it's really that much different when compared to the difference between a pygmean from Africa and a japanese.

And unless I'm much mistaken, if humans and elves can procreate, that means they had a common ancestor at some point in history.

#290
Xilizhra

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Pointed ears? You are honestly going to say that pointed ears makes more of a distinction worthy of preservation between humans and elves than anything that differs between the human races? It's about as relevant as the lip size.

Um... yes. It's indicative of at least a somewhat different function in what the ears are meant to catch and how they work. And no, the skeletal structure differs far more than you claim, from what we can see in DA2.

And unless I'm much mistaken, if humans and elves can procreate, that means they had a common ancestor at some point in history.

This is fantasy, it doesn't have to work that way. It's possible, of course, that neither elves nor humans actually evolved at all, but if they were separately created, they're separate species in any case.

#291
MisterJB

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Xilizhra wrote...

Um... yes. It's indicative of at least a somewhat different function in what the ears are meant to catch and how they work. And no, the skeletal structure differs far more than you claim, from what we can see in DA2.

And some humans have pale skin and blue eyes because they were more useful in the area of the world they evolved in while others are completely different because that is what is more suitable for their area of Earth. It should be about as relevant as the length of human and elven ears, morally speaking.

Do you have a study measuring the physical differences between an elf and a human when compared to the physical differences between an african pygmean and a japanese? Because I'd read it.

This is fantasy, it doesn't have to work that way. It's possible, of course, that neither elves nor humans actually evolved at all, but if they were separately created, they're separate species in any case.

And until we are told it doesn't work that way, I'm going to assume it does.
Just like I assume humans don't fly into space because of gravity and not because the Maker is pushing them down.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 avril 2013 - 02:21 .


#292
Xilizhra

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And some humans have pale skin and blue eyes because they were more useful in the area of the world they evolved in while others are completely different because that is what is more suitable for their area of Earth. It should be about as relevant as the length of human and elven ears, morally speaking.

Out of curiosity, what would you consider worth preserving?

Do you have a study measuring the physical differences between an elf and a human when compared to the physical differences between an african pygmean and a japanese? Because I'd read it.

I'm currently researching this. I'll get back to you.

#293
LobselVith8

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almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

Empire or not, if it is true that the elves refused to aid in a Blight, they did violate a treaty held with the Grey Wardens at the very least.


I think the Grey Wardens made a treaty with the Dalish clans, as opposed to the elves of the Dales.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Again, I would repeat my above statement that, given Thedas is grey/dark, I wouldn't say there's a clear-cut evil/good guy if I'm forced to make any assumption at all.

Both the Dalish and Orlais probably did write their history to make themselves look good.


Possibly. We can't say for certain. However, in contrast to some posters, I'm not inclined to condemn the Dales for keeping out the Chantry or the Orlesian Empire.

#294
MisterJB

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Xilizhra wrote...
Out of curiosity, what would you consider worth preserving?

Too personal.
Suffice to say, I don't actually disagree with the notion that humans outbreeding elves into extinction is bad and should be avoided. I'm only arguing that it's disingenuous to claim that this is acceptable on Earth and not on Thedas because there's so much more difference between humans and elves than there is between the different human race of our planet.

#295
Xilizhra

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MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Out of curiosity, what would you consider worth preserving?

Too personal.
Suffice to say, I don't actually disagree with the notion that humans outbreeding elves into extinction is bad and should be avoided. I'm only arguing that it's disingenuous to claim that this is acceptable on Earth and not on Thedas because there's so much more difference between humans and elves than there is between the different human race of our planet.

So... you also support racial preservation IRL?

#296
MisterJB

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Yes.

#297
Xilizhra

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MisterJB wrote...

Yes.

Intriguing. In what manner?

#298
MisterJB

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As I said: too personal.

#299
Xilizhra

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MisterJB wrote...

As I said: too personal.

Hmmm. So you don't care what we might think with us just speculating, but you do care about us actually knowing what it is you care about.

#300
Ausstig

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Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Out of curiosity, what would you consider worth preserving?

Too personal.
Suffice to say, I don't actually disagree with the notion that humans outbreeding elves into extinction is bad and should be avoided. I'm only arguing that it's disingenuous to claim that this is acceptable on Earth and not on Thedas because there's so much more difference between humans and elves than there is between the different human race of our planet.

So... you also support racial preservation IRL?


For the record i don't. Humans will bread and inter mix and what is useful will stay and what is not will go. I also don't think pointed ears mark a moajor evloution branch.