438 réponses à ce sujet

[Asdrubael Vect]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Elves aren't ever going to ally with Tevinter... The majority of Tevinter slaves are Elven, and you expect Elves to ally with them? That is not going to happen.

1)they will go against Orlais, Chantry & Templar(and Qun if he can invade in Thedas)... this is war and benefit, no one talking about friendship and good relationship

2)non-mages city elven/human slaves(but anyone can sell himself into slavery and Magisters can free them if they will), and elves in Tevinter have a better live than in Chantry countries and even may become a Magisters-nobles

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 08:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

SOME Elves might have a better life in Tevinter, but if you aren't a magister or an important asset for a magister, you most likely live a terrible life in Tevinter.

[Asdrubael Vect]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SOME Elves might have a better life in Tevinter, but if you aren't a magister or an important asset for a magister, you most likely live a terrible life in Tevinter.

no one will get something for free, especially in Tevinter Empire with their endless war against Orlais/Chantry/Qun,  but even non-mages of any race have a lot of chances to gain much more in Tevinter than in any Chantry Countries

for a mage it of course would be easier

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 08:39 .

[Senya]

^^

Alright, I am sorry, but you are dead wrong. The Anderfels was once a part of the Imperium and it even separated from it once before being reconquered by Tevinter again only to be abandoned by it when the Second Blight began in 1:5 Divine. That is twice that the Imperium acted against them (http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Anderfels).

Starkhaven in 2:15 Glory was prompted by the Imperium and supported by them to conquer the rest of the Free Marches and in 2:80, for their failure, was conquered by them for a short time until an Exalted March drove them out. (http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Starkhaven)

Rivain gained their independence from the Imperium shortly before the rise of Orlais and Orlais is in no position to attack them. They'd probably worry more about Tevinter. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain)

Antiva, like the Free Marches, was attacked by Starkhaven in 2:33, its king sponsored by the Imperium, showing its imperialistic tendencies. Whether the Dales were or were not part of Orlais at this point is a moot point for Antiva and the Free Marches as they would still have been attacked by Tevinter's puppet-king of Starkhaven. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Antiva)

Furthermore, in the Imperium power is reserved for the Magisters. It always has been. Slavery is practiced freely, meaning the weak and poor are enslaved.

Tevinter is no better than Orlais. In some ways, it is worse.

[Asdrubael Vect]

1)Anderfels were part of Tevinter Empire more then 900 years ago after they join to Orlais but after Dracon death they separated from Orlais and be independent

2)Antiva and Rivain have no conflicts with Tevinter from 2:80 for current 9:40

3)offcorse because Magistres are nobles in Tevinter and in all country nobles have more influence

their slavery is much the same as alianage in Chantry countries

and in Tevinter its a crime to be enslaved and smugled to Empire, those who are caught doing so are executed and made an example of. Those slaves who are sold on the black market are considered "non-contract" slaves, and have the worst living conditions of all.

so the only legal slaves who lived in Tevinter is who sold themself to slavery and their childrens. and war prisoners with criminals

Although Orlais nobles have slaves

The Crowns of Antiva also prey on enslaved humans and elves, recruiting them to become elite assassins through rigorous tests of survival and duplicity. The Crows have been known to purchase recruits, arguably enslaving those they buy, or at least indenturing them into a life of servitude.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 07:12 .

[Senya]

^^

The Imperium still treats its slaves worse than any other country and practices it the most frequently. Of all the other kingdoms the Elves could ally with, Tevinter is the least likely.

The Magisters overstep the bounds of normal nobility by using slaves as fodder for their blood magic.

"Because of this, the condition of alienage elves in the Imperium is slightly better, but for the slaves it is significantly worse, compared to the elves of other countries."

Those elves who sell themselves into slavery are prompted by poverty.

And Tevinter's past conflicts with Antiva and Rivain show how untrustworthy it has proven to be when in a position of power. Furthermore, the Anderfels, even if they are resentful of Orlais, would never ally with Tevinter against them under the simple logic that as long as both exist, they will remain independent.

I also wonder, given the amount of Tevinter mages involved in the "illegal" slaving operations, how strictly the laws against smuggling slaves are upheld given that the Imperiums economy depends on slavery.

Again, the elves would be least likely to ally with Tevinter given its extensive use of slavery, more so than in any other country in Thedas and perhaps the only one in the early time period when the Dales were inedependent.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Drakon was dealing with pressure from the Dales in his attempts to expand his empire by conquering other lands? Let's not forget the fact that you're defending an empire that was built on conquest and forcing the Andrastian religion on people. I'm also not sure why you think the elves should help an empire that caused them problems since it's inception and seemed to want to conquer them. And they don't trade with an empire of conquerors that have been invading their neighbors since day one; that isn't a surprise. I'm not finding your statements persuasive.

I'm not so sure this picture of early Orlais is all that accurate.

First of all, by the time war breaks out between the Dales and Orlais Kordilius Drakon I is 60 years dead. So whatever militaristic policies he had personally hardly matters. He ruled for 76 years (68 as emperor). If we assume he ascended to the Throne of Val Royeux the city state as a 15-year old that means he was 91 when he fied (he could very well have been older). So at the very youngest we're looking at a Kordilius Drakon II that is in his forties when he ascends the throne, but could very well be 60 or 70. So he's dead too. At the very least we're looking at a very elderly grandson of emperor Kordilius clinging to the throne by now, but it could very well be 4 or even 5 generations down the line.
So whatever policy Drakon I had matters very little since everyone that was around back then will be dead or extremely senile by the time the border disputes happens, and so will their children and grandchildren.

Except Orlais' policy of expansion didn't end with Emperor Drakon I, as we see with the Orlesian Empire invading Nevarra after helping them during the Third Blight, and Orlais' two attempts to invade Ferelden, followed by a successful invasion and over a century of occupation (with support from the Chantry of Andraste) that only ended with Loghain and Maric's rebellion, and even now there are rumors that some of the nobility are looking to reclaim their lost province. Not to mention the Orlesian conquest of Kirkwall.

Emperor Drakon died, but his legacy of invasion and conquest lives on with his empire.

Sir JK wrote...

Also remember that the period theodosian civlisations are currently in is called "Rebuilding" and which been going on for 10 years. With a focus on recovery, culture, religion and trade. The entire age, Glory age, is named after the promise of a restored civilisation. 10 years is half a generation. So the losses of the Orlesian military following the Battle of Starkhaven are not fully restored yet.

This is 40 years after Anderfels wholesale broke off from Orlais. And it's in a period when Orlais is in fact losing territory made by Drakon. Without Anderfels and without Nevarra (not yet conquered by Orlais, that happens after the Dales), that means Orlais is only marginally larger than the Dales. Geographically that is. They might have a larger population, though a large part of Orlais is largely uninhabited to this day.

Drakon I did indeed order missionaries out in the world, but the large vector for spreading the religion in Nevarra, Free Marches and Antiva was the Grey Wardens. So the Chanto of Light were not primarily spread by the Orlesian sword outside of Orlais, but by the self-sacrefice of the wardens (ooh... fitting symbology, no wonder it worked so well).

Drakon sent out the missionaries because his attempts to conquer the Free Marches were hampered by the pressures from the Dales (as you note below).

Sir JK wrote...

He did wage holy war, but what would become Orlais was largely andrastian (though not chantry) at the time. More to the point however, lore suggest most wars were toward the north. Not the south. And that was well over 120 years prior to the war anyways. Ancient history. Unless the Quickening had reversed to such a degree that the elven elders were still alive (seems very unlikely since the Dalish don't make any such claims)
So either the missionaries, on Drakon's and his successor's orders, avoided the Dales (seems unlikely, the Dalish would have likely have held this as initial respect and then betrayal). Or they'd been a more or less constant phenomena for roughly 129 years by the time the war started. Even if we assume that it was the advent of the templars that made things spiral out of control, that still leaves us with a 89 years period between their inception and the war. Not to mention that they're essentially the defanged inquistion.

There were many Cults of the Maker at the time, and they weren't all the same, with different interpretations on what Andraste said. Drakon seemed to nationalize his particular Cult of Andraste as the regional religion of the people.

Sir JK wrote...

Another interesting tidbit. It's mentioned that it was pressure from the Dales that made Drakon I stop his plans on conquering the remaining Free Marches. This prior to the establishment of the Chantry. This suggests to me that there had been elven armies on the Dalish/Orlesian border 120 years prior to the war. Now, it's only reasonable to keep a first line of defence bordering a military and expansionistic state. But this suggests that they were big enough to make Kordilius pause. It also suggests that the elves were hinting that they'd not stand by as Orlais replaced Tevinter. Again, reasonable.
What's interesting is that is suggests the Dalish are a military power that Orlais respects.
During the second blight, 80 years prior to the war, there's mention on an elven army watching as Montsimmard burns. Response to the blight or is it perhaps the same force as might have been on the Orlesian border? (No, I don't expect an answer, there's no evidence either way)
Also, well worth noting that if the Darkspawn burned Montsimmard then the region adjacent to the dales is probably very depopulated.

Perhaps it was the Emerald Guardians, who watched the border of the kingdom of the Dales.

Sir JK wrote...

Once the war started, it took the elves 1 year to conquer Montsimmard and besiege Val Royeux. Between Val Royeux and Montsimmard we have the cities Val Firmin, Val Foret and Velun. Val Firmin and Velun are a bit off so they could have been bypassed if the elves crossed lake Celestine or the river north of it. But they must have at the very least besieged Val Foret as well as Val Royeux. This means that 45 % (55 if Verchiel and Lydes are Orlesian and not Dalish) of Orlesian cities are behind the elven front in 1 years time. And it takes them 10 years and an Exalted March to beat the dalish back and take Halamshiral.
The Orlesians really sound unprepared for this war. Fits with that they're rebuilding. But not with the idea that they were gunning for conquest. Sure, their commanders could just have been incompetent I guess.

It's noted that the Orlesians underestimated the elves of the kingdom of the Dales. Historically, it's noted: "Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales, but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen." It seems like the Orlesians underestimated the elves of the Dales.

Sir JK wrote...

Now... to summarize.
Orlais has not been ruled by Drakon for 60 years.
Orlais is like the rest of Thedas undergoing the "Rebuilding".
The missionaries have been present for 130 years or intentionally ignored the Dales until then.
The templars are not a new phenomena.
The Dales are strongly suggested to have quite the military power.
Orlais is at it's weakest. It's not expanding, it's bleeding territory.
Not 10 years has gone since the second blight ended. Montsimmard is still likely a shadow of it's former self.
The Orlesians fare extremely poorly in the war.

If we assume that the Dalish attack was a response to aggressive attitudes in Orlais... I'll readily admit I have a slight pro-orlesian bias. I do. But something does not add up. Why is the elves suddenly reacting "defensively" to Orlais when it seems to be at it's weakest (and there's not a blight going on)? What happened in 2:5-2:9 that set these two nations on the path of war? What changed?

It's noted that there are border skirmishes between the two nations in 2:5 Glory, which could have played a role in what ultimately happened.

Also, the Dalish Warden codex on the Dales notes that the Chantry sent templars into the Dales in response to the elves kicking out the missionaries, and the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert. It seems like the alternative to the Orlesian historical account is that the war started because the humans invaded their sovereign territory - specifically, the Chantry of Andraste through the use of the Order of Templars.

I agree that the Orlesians didn't do well during the war.

Sir JK wrote...

Something does not add up.

Sources: Dragon age wiki pages - Ages, Orlais, Dales, Exalted Marches, Nevarra, Kordilius Drakon I, codex entry: the Dales, codex entry: the long walk.

I hope we get to see more lore regarding this because now I'm really curious about this. And if the elves do show up as a side or a plot, then it'd be the perfect place. I seriosuly hope for more lore articles, more people talking about it. But most of all... I hope for monuments.

You went through a lot of research to make this post.

I doubt the Orlesian Empire or the Chantry would leave any elven monuments standing; they outlawed the elven religion, after all. I suppose some Orlesian monuments might have been made to mark their territory once they sacked and conquered the Dales.

Regardless, I would hope to get to know more about the elven culture. One of the things that concerns me about the news of a "human only" protagonist is that the elves may get sidelined for the Andrastian kingsdoms throughout Thedas, and I'm not too interested in Andrastian culture. I'd like to get to know more about the People, as well as what's going on with the elves who are living in occupied Dales.

Things would be really nice if the protagonist could help the downtrodden elves, especially if that lead to reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire. I honestly have no interest in the politics of the Orlesian Empire.

Sir JK wrote...

Because unlike written history, monuments are hard to rewrite. Wether it's glorious victory symbols or grave monuments will tell us a lot about what the Orlesian attitudes during the war and it's aftermath were.

Also, a side note, and interesting little tidbit I noticed while doing research for this post. the dalish accounts of codex entry: the Dales and The long walk both mention Orlais. But when the Dales were established their neighbour was the kingdom of Ciriane. It was not until 55 years later that Orlais was established as a nation, 70 years until the Chantry was established and 90 years until the Templars were established and 200 until the Dales were conquered.

That's because the Ciriane became the land of Orlais.

[Sir JK]

Ah, but you missed the important bit when those Codices mentions Orlais rather that Ciriane, my friend. It means that they were "written" after the fall. It's not first-hand accounts. Girashel is viewing it all in the post-Dalish view... in a world were Orlais has long since invaded and converted the Dales.
It's possible it's mostly true yes... it's also possible it's written by a bitter old racist elf who dreams of a better time that never was.

And yes, I don't think the Orlesian would've left many elven monuments standing unaltered. I was mostly hoping for Orlesian monuments from the era. Whether the Orlesians of the time saw it as a point of pride and superiority, or fear, anger and grief.

[Black Jimmy]

 I kinda figured it wouldn't really be about taking sides but more "these factions are being dicks, please go sort them out via murder or your mad mad conversational skillz"

[wyvvern]

I'm curious - when do we stop calling them the 'occupied' Dales? 800 years? 8000?

You do realize that there's probably no country on our planet that hasn't been invaded at some point and had its people dislodged. The ancient Greeks and Egyptians were particularly good at this. Does it require an active army (and not scattered partisans) still trying to retake the occupied lands? Do we rename the USA the Occupied USA? How about those Picts and Romans?

I'm honestly not being flippant, just generally curious as to how losing lands 800 years ago gives the cultural descendants some moral claim to the dales. At some point you kind of need to move on.

[In Exile]

wyvvern wrote...
I'm honestly not being flippant, just generally curious as to how losing lands 800 years ago gives the cultural descendants some moral claim to the dales. At some point you kind of need to move on.

Look, all the elves want is to to forcefully migrate all humans out of their lands because that way they can become immortal and all become mages, i.e., ideal elven ubermensch. 

There's nothing even remotely creepy or disturbing about that ideal at all. 

[LobselVith8]

wyvvern wrote...

I'm curious - when do we stop calling them the 'occupied' Dales?

When the elves have reclaimed their homeland.

Just because the elves haven't had the same success as Ferelden or Nevarra in ousting their Orlesian conquerors doesn't mean that the elves of the Dales should continue to live under an empire that outlawed the worship of their gods. I would like the opportunity to help the elves living under the subjugation of humans who see the elves as less than people.

[MisterJB]

You know, there are likely human families who have lived in the Dales for countless generations who have never harmed anyone and have toiled to develop the region. After so much time, they have as much right o be there as the elves.
I'm all for equality between humans and elves but I think we should draw the line at forced relocation.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

You know, there are likely human families who have lived in the Dales for countless generations who have never harmed anyone and have toiled to develop the region. After so much time, they have as much right o be there as the elves.
I'm all for equality between humans and elves but I think we should draw the line at forced relocation.

Considering how the Chantry demonized the Dalish for worshipping the Creators and most Andrastians see elves as less than people, to the point of torching the homes of Alienage elves who tried to live with humans and even purging them when they get "unruly", I don't see an alternative.

[MisterJB]

First of all, it's not "most Andrastians". We've seen people abusing elves but we've seen many more people not abusing elves.

Second, there's plenty of alternatives. Our own societies have, mostly, done away with segregation so, there's no reason Thedas can't.
Here are a few suggestions: rather than look with condescending arrogance at elves who buy homes outside of the alienage, help them protect them. Work towards placing elves in the city guard like it happened in Kirkwall so you have someone to report crimes to. Don't close yourselves from the rest of the city in the alienage.
It's going to be hard and it's going to take time but it will not harm innocents and it might just actually lead to lasting change in human-elven relations whereas forcing humans out of the Dales only ensures more hostilities in the future.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 02:08 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how the Chantry demonized the Dalish for worshipping the Creators and most Andrastians see elves as less than people, to the point of torching the homes of Alienage elves who tried to live with humans and even purging them when they get "unruly", I don't see an alternative.

I'm not going to say anything else to this other than to cite Article 7 of the Rome Statute. This is the section that defines crimes against humanity, the most vile and offensive of the general class of interantional crimes we defined as a response to WWII.

 Article 7

Crimes against humanity

1.   For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

(a)     Murder;
(    Extermination;
©     Enslavement;
(d)     Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e)     Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
(f)     Torture;
(g)     Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h)     Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
(i)     Enforced disappearance of persons;
(j)     The crime of apartheid;
(k)     Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

Modifié par In Exile, 27 avril 2013 - 02:13 .

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Here are a few suggestions: rather than look with condescending arrogance at elves who buy homes outside of the alienage, help them protect them. Work towards placing elves in the city guard like it happened in Kirkwall so you have someone to report crimes to. Don't close yourselves from the rest of the city in the alienage.

That's almost insulting. What the humans have done to elves is offensive, and their racism is pretty rampant. Saying that the elves should "do something" about it is just mind-boggling.

Edit: You'll note that Orlais and Ferelden nobility are guilty of most of the crimes against humanity in Article 7. You don't fix this kind of rampant human rights abuse with "placing elves in the city guard". The actual fact that an alienage exist is basically apartheid. 

There needs to be a radical restructuring of basically every society in Thedas to remove the ingrained racism and racial segregation that's going on there. It will take massive social upheaval.

Modifié par In Exile, 27 avril 2013 - 02:23 .

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
That's almost insulting. What the humans have done to elves is offensive, and their racism is pretty rampant. Saying that the elves should "do something" about it is just mind-boggling.

Would you say the same thing about sexism? Racism? 

There needs to be a radical restructuring of basically every society in Thedas to remove the ingrained racism and racial segregation that's going on there. It will take massive social upheaval.

Well, yes. While it is true many injustices are commited against city elves, nothing is going to change if they continue to close themselves off in their comunity within a comunity.
Which is not meant to imply that elves are opressed because of laziness but only that they, mostly, do not stand up for themselves.
The simple act of having elves serving as part of the city guard means that they have someone they can call for help if human guards are ignoring crimes commited against elves. It might mean little, depending on the magistrate that will judge the case, but it's a step in the right direction.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how the Chantry demonized the Dalish for worshipping the Creators and most Andrastians see elves as less than people, to the point of torching the homes of Alienage elves who tried to live with humans and even purging them when they get "unruly", I don't see an alternative.

I'm not going to say anything else to this other than to cite Article 7 of the Rome Statute. This is the section that defines crimes against humanity, the most vile and offensive of the general class of interantional crimes we defined as a response to WWII.

That's precisely what the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry did when they invaded and conquered the Dales.

Also, the Elven Epilogues from Origins showed how humans reacted with hostility and murder to elven prosperity.

[wyvvern]

LobselVith8 wrote...
When the elves have reclaimed their homeland. 

Why is it /their/ homeland? Do you know for a fact that the elves didn't drive some tribes out of the dales before they laid claim to it in the past? Did they engrave their names on everything?

Ownership of land is a (probably necessary) social contract. There's no 'natural right' for any group to lay claim to any amount of acerage.

I won't deny that what happened to the elves was tragic, brutal and inhumane, but it was over 800 years ago. 

So my question stands: What gives the descendants of something that happened 40 human generations ago (using the standard 20 year geneology defination of a generation) the 'right' to their 'homeland.' Just because you empathize with them?

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Well, yes. While it is true many injustices are commited against city elves, nothing is going to change if they continue to close themselves off in their comunity within a comunity.

Dude, forced segregation. It's not like the elves wanted to live in the shtel to start with. And it's not as if the humans don't murder, rape and steal from the ones who do set out.

The simple act of having elves serving as part of the city guard means that they have someone they can call for help if human guards are ignoring crimes commited against elves. It might mean little, depending on the magistrate that will judge the case, but it's a step in the right direction.

Unless a racist human shoves a dagger in that elf's throat and says that a "outlaw" did it while high-fiving his buddies.

And re: the bold, you mean you're actually recognizing that the system is racist and broken beyond belief, and your solution is that not enough elves are struggling to try and participate in a racist and broken system that intentionally excludes them?

LobselVith8 wrote..
That's precisely what the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry did when they invaded and conquered the Dales.

Yes, 800 years ago the Orlesian Empire committed that specific crime against humanity. What about that justifies comitting the same against the humans in the Dales, exactly? 

This is a rhetorical question, btw, because I'm not going to derail the thread by responding to your answer. I just wanted to make it clear for everyone that you were providing a moral justification for crimes against humanity.

And further food for thought: 

What will you do when the people refuse to be forcefully removed from their lands? Will you kill them? Will you grab them, break their things, and drag them out? Will you justify their murder as moral when they resist solders trying to destroy their lives?

Modifié par In Exile, 27 avril 2013 - 02:58 .

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
Dude, forced segregation. It's not like the elves wanted to live in the shtel to start with. And it's not as if the humans don't murder, rape and steal from the ones who do set out.

No to the first, yes to the second.
The segregation is actually not forced, Elves can live anywhere they please. They mostly don't wish to, partially because they have good reason to fear prejudiced humans, partially because they can't afford it and partially because they are mantaining the elven tradition of isolationism.
They have good reason, this time, but looking condescendingly to the elves who do try to improve their lives outside of the Circle or rioting if their Bann marries a wealthy human is helping no one but the racists.

Unless a racist human shoves a dagger in that elf's throat and says that a "outlaw" did it while high-fiving his buddies.

It's not like that doesn't happen between humans. It falls to the guardsmen to investigate the manner and elven guardsmen would have greater incentive to do so.

And re: the bold, you mean you're actually recognizing that the system is racist and broken beyond belief, and your solution is that not enough elves are struggling to try and participate in a racist and broken system that intentionally excludes them?

If enough elves manage to participate in the racist and broken system, the system stops being so racist and broken.
Celene's elven lover has been improving the lot of orlesian elves through the empress, not from outside the system. If sleeping with the empress counts and being part of the system, anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
The segregation is actually not forced, Elves can live anywhere they please. They mostly don't wish to, partially because they have good reason to fear prejudiced humans, partially because they can't afford it and partially because they are mantaining the elven tradition of isolationism.

All those things are related, and all of them result from the systemic exploitation of the elves in human society. 

They have good reason, this time, but looking condescendingly to the elves who do try to improve their lives outside of the Circle or rioting if their Bann marries a wealthy human is helping no one but the racists.

I can't recall these things happening in game, but blaming the victim is silly. And in this case, you're blaming the victims.

It's not like that doesn't happen between humans. It falls to the guardsmen to investigate the manner and elven guardsmen would have greater incentive to do so.

That's not the point, and you know it. 

If enough elves manage to participate in the racist and broken system, the system stops being so racist and broken.

The whole point of the system is so they can't. If elves actually tried to participate in the system in large numbers I'd be the equivalent of armed rebellion, only they'd be trying to do it economically.

[BlueMagitek]

The weird thing is, you can be a City Elf and still fake your way into the Guard at Fort Drakon and no one will bat an eye. ~_~"