438 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Look, pointing out that the elves have it hard does not make what you suggestion any less repugnant.

It's not really a necessity to the reclamation of the kingdom of the Dales, mind you, but I honestly think it's very dangerous to have racist, xenephobic humans near the elves when they see elves as being less than people.  The Dalish Boon was no different: what do you think happened to the humans who had homes in the Hinterlands? They had to find another place to live because the ruler of Ferelden gave the land to the Dalish so the clans could now live there.

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, elves are second class citizens in human lands and that needs to change, no one disputes that. But what you are advocating is to do to the humans living in the Dales something that is as bad as anything that was done to the elves. Human familiies have lived there for 40 generations, they have toiled to develop that land and have not harmed anyone.

I don't doubt that relocating the humans elsewhere would be a bad experience for people who built homes there, but please don't compare it to what the elves have been through. It isn't anywhere near as bad as purging men, women, and children to keep them in line, which has been done for centuries since the fall of the Dales. The bodies of all the dead children in the Denerim Alienage tells me how little humanity cares for the plight of the elves, especially when they're willing to wipe them out every time the elves protest their living conditions.

MisterJB wrote...

You want to take all that they worked for away from them because that was elven land 800 years ago.

Loghain and Maric had no problem reclaiming land that was lost a century ago, and the story Leliana tells of her mother reveals that some Orlesians fled Ferelden when the occupation was over. I doubt the centuries of living under Orlesian occupation mean anything to the elves who want to regain control over their kingdom.

MisterJB wrote...

And what about those who refuse to go? They will have to be forced which means beatings, killings, rapes. Little elven boys and girls were killed in the Denerim riots and little human boys and girls will be killed if you try to make an elven-only state out of the Dales.

Elves have been purged for centuries; the massacre of the Denerim Alienage is simply one example of countless times elves have been purged. That's something you're glossing over in order to point out how the humans will be irate over losing land that belonged to the elves, but neglecting that there's no actual alternative to helping out the elves when they are literally powerless in the Andrastian kingdoms.

I'm not willing to wait centuries for the attitudes of humans to change when they haven't changed for over a millennia.

MisterJB wrote...

That is what you're advocating. You can see a bright future for elves in their homeland but only if it's built on the blood of innocents.

Innocents don't need to die for the elves to reclaim their kingdom back from the Orlesian Empire.

MisterJB wrote...

If the elves have enough military strenght and political pull to conquer and mantain the Dales, surely there are other alternatives.

With the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian civil war, it's the perfect opportunity to reclaim the Dales while the human nations are occupied with other matters.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
but I honestly think it's very dangerous to have racist, xenephobic humans near the elves when they see elves as being less than people.

Because, as we all know, all humans are dangerous xenophobes.
Are you like this in real life?

The Dalish Boon was no different: what do you think happened to the humans who had homes in the Hinterlands? They had to find another place to live because the ruler of Ferelden gave the land to the Dalish so the clans could now live there.

There is no mention whatsoever of any human being dislodged in any ending. This is simply your assumption.
Maybe the elves just needed to learn to coexist.

I don't doubt that relocating the humans elsewhere would be a bad experience for people who built homes there, but please don't compare it to what the elves have been through. It isn't anywhere near as bad as purging men, women, and children to keep them in line, which has been done for centuries since the fall of the Dales.

It would be the exact same thing. You think that there wouldn't be any violence or purges in a forced relocation? Nonsense.

Loghain and Maric had no problem reclaiming land that was lost a century ago, and the story Leliana tells of her mother reveals that some Orlesians fled Ferelden when the occupation was over. I doubt the centuries of living under Orlesian occupation mean anything to the elves who want to regain control over their kingdom.

In Ferelden, much less time had passed and the ferelden population hadn't been almost entirely replaced. It's not the same thing, not even close.
The Dales are not occupied. They're human land now.

Elves have been purged for centuries; the massacre of the Denerim Alienage is simply one example of countless times elves have been purged.

So, your suggestion is that beating, killings and rapings are totally fine so long as they only happen once?

That's something you're glossing over in order to point out how the humans will be irate over losing land that belonged to the elves, but neglecting that there's no actual alternative to helping out the elves when they are literally powerless in the Andrastian kingdoms.

Because our own societies have never been able to overcome prejudice other than through segregation?
So, you think it's totally possible for mages and non-mages to live together but draw the line at humans and elves.

I'm not willing to wait centuries for the attitudes of humans to change when they haven't changed for over a millennia.

Forced relocation it is.

Innocents don't need to die for the elves to reclaim their kingdom back from the Orlesian Empire.

Because, as we all know, forced relocations are very peaceful and friendly events. It's all camarederies and hugs.
No violence at all.

With the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian civil war, it's the perfect opportunity to reclaim the Dales while the human nations are occupied with other matters.

And if the elves have the military strength and political pull to conquer and hold the Dales, there clearly are other alternatives open that don't involve human massacres.
Are you just going to ignore that?

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 10:56 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

^ MisterJB you a big hypocrite...
1)so humans can do such things and others cant because they not humans?
2)maybe humans just need to not force other races live like they wanted and go away from territories what really never was their?
3)and what? no one humans never cares about destroing elven citys, so why they need?
4)the same thing humans do with Dales so what?. and Thedas was never a human or qunari lands only Elves and Dwarves
5)once? elven(and any non-human, mages, non-chantry) opressions happens every day and no one really cares
6) yes we see how they "live togeter" in Chantry lands...and we have no problem with Dwarves segretation
7)so humans must go from elven lands
8)and who cares?, no one cares with Arlathan and no one cares with Dales
9)this is much better for elves(and any non-humans, mages, non-chantry) and its eliminates the possibility of a repeat of history with Dales, if Orlais fall no one would care and many wanted Orlais fall

and why they need to care about some deaths of peoples who never cares about deaths of them?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 27 avril 2013 - 11:48 .

[Ausstig]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Ancient Elves are something like native pre-columbian south & north americans, and their history is much the same

fall of Arlathan is fall of Tenochtitlan

and Dales elves are similar to native north americans after American revolution

alianages is reservations and ghettos

and they have something from jewish, asians and africans in 18-19 who have minor rights

Maybe a combination of both?

I just felt Jews because they were in a similar position in medieval times and Thedas is very medieval.

[Asdrubael Vect]

yes, they are combination of both

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 28 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[In Exile]

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)so humans can do such things and others cant because they not humans?

No. No one can do these things. 

That's the point of calling people out for their fictional racism and their gleeful support of crimes against humanity. 

What the Orlesians, Tevinters and Ferelden did  with the elves is apartheid segregation, and involves a scale of systemic racism and abuse that our entire society has developed to avoid and condemn. 

But that doesn't make it okay to the same thing as revenge. 

2)maybe humans just need to not force other races live like they wanted and go away from territories what really never was their?

Maybe all living sentient beings need to do this, and not be racists about it. Human or elven.

3)and what? no one humans never cares about destroing elven citys, so why they need?

Unless you're about to justify anti-elven racism, the reason why elves shouldn't do it is to not be racist murders. 

9)this is much better for elves(and any non-humans, mages, non-chantry) and its eliminates the possibility of a repeat of history with Dales, if Orlais fall no one would care and many wanted Orlais fall

No one would care that Orlais fell... until it so happened that every human in it was exiled by a group of racist militatn elves for being human. In which case every single human nation in Thedas would have every justifed reason in the world to invade and burn everything elven to the ground. 

Because the elves just proved they're as big a threat to human life as qunari or darkspawn. 

and why they need to care about some deaths of peoples who never cares about deaths of them?

Because we aren't genocidal racists. Or at least I'm not. 

[Noctis Augustus]

In Exile wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)so humans can do such things and others cant because they not humans?

No. No one can do these things. 

That's the point of calling people out for their fictional racism and their gleeful support of crimes against humanity. 

What the Orlesians, Tevinters and Ferelden did  with the elves is apartheid segregation, and involves a scale of systemic racism and abuse that our entire society has developed to avoid and condemn. 

But that doesn't make it okay to the same thing as revenge. 

2)maybe humans just need to not force other races live like they wanted and go away from territories what really never was their?

Maybe all living sentient beings need to do this, and not be racists about it. Human or elven.

3)and what? no one humans never cares about destroing elven citys, so why they need?

Unless you're about to justify anti-elven racism, the reason why elves shouldn't do it is to not be racist murders. 

9)this is much better for elves(and any non-humans, mages, non-chantry) and its eliminates the possibility of a repeat of history with Dales, if Orlais fall no one would care and many wanted Orlais fall

No one would care that Orlais fell... until it so happened that every human in it was exiled by a group of racist militatn elves for being human. In which case every single human nation in Thedas would have every justifed reason in the world to invade and burn everything elven to the ground. 

Because the elves just proved they're as big a threat to human life as qunari or darkspawn. 

and why they need to care about some deaths of peoples who never cares about deaths of them?

Because we aren't genocidal racists. Or at least I'm not. 

Ah... An idealist. How foolish...

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I honestly think it's very dangerous to have racist, xenephobic humans near the elves when they see elves as being less than people.[/quote]

Because, as we all know, all humans are dangerous xenophobes.
Are you like this in real life? [/quote]

Andrastian humans and elves don't exist in real life.

What we do know is how humans have historically treated the elves, so I think having their own kingdom back would give them a place where they would have rights, and where they could be more than second-class citizens living in servitude for humans.

We also know the hostility Andrastians have for "heathens".

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish Boon was no different: what do you think happened to the humans who had homes in the Hinterlands? They had to find another place to live because the ruler of Ferelden gave the land to the Dalish so the clans could now live there. [/quote]

There is no mention whatsoever of any human being dislodged in any ending. This is simply your assumption. [/quote]

I doubt the Dalish received the Hinterlands just do they could live in the clouds. The Dalish Hero of Ferelden asks for her people to have their own land: that's the entire point behind receiving the Hinterlands.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Maybe the elves just needed to learn to coexist. [/quote]

That statement pretty much ignores the reality of how elves have been treated when they tried to live among humans.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't doubt that relocating the humans elsewhere would be a bad experience for people who built homes there, but please don't compare it to what the elves have been through. It isn't anywhere near as bad as purging men, women, and children to keep them in line, which has been done for centuries since the fall of the Dales.[/quote]

It would be the exact same thing. You think that there wouldn't be any violence or purges in a forced relocation? Nonsense. [/quote]

Your opinion isn't indisputable fact.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain and Maric had no problem reclaiming land that was lost a century ago, and the story Leliana tells of her mother reveals that some Orlesians fled Ferelden when the occupation was over. I doubt the centuries of living under Orlesian occupation mean anything to the elves who want to regain control over their kingdom.[/quote]

In Ferelden, much less time had passed and the ferelden population hadn't been almost entirely replaced. It's not the same thing, not even close.

The Dales are not occupied. They're human land now. [/quote]

I'm sure some Orleans felt the same way about Ferelden.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves have been purged for centuries; the massacre of the Denerim Alienage is simply one example of countless times elves have been purged.[/quote]

So, your suggestion is that beating, killings and rapings are totally fine so long as they only happen once? [/quote]

I don't think those outcomes are necessary if the humans were relocated from occupied Dales, but they're the realities the elves have to endure in the Alienages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's something you're glossing over in order to point out how the humans will be irate over losing land that belonged to the elves, but neglecting that there's no actual alternative to helping out the elves when they are literally powerless in the Andrastian kingdoms. [/quote]

Because our own societies have never been able to overcome prejudice other than through segregation?
So, you think it's totally possible for mages and non-mages to live together but draw the line at humans and elves. [/quote]

Not at all, but I'd rather seize the opportunity to help the elves forge their own kingdom, and determine their own destiny, than hope that humans suddenly change a millennia of racist behavior towards the elves. Taking over the Dales doesn't mean the elves would push the humans out. It's simply one possible outcome. I'm sure the elves have their own ideas about running an independent Dales.

But if the humans did relocate from occupied Dales, it would be the Dalish Boon on the scale of a kingdom under Orlesian occupation.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not willing to wait centuries for the attitudes of humans to change when they haven't changed for over a millennia. [/quote]

Forced relocation it is. [/quote]

I see it as a preferable alternative to killing everyone. There are elves all over Thedas who will be anxious to have a fresh new start, where they can live as equals instead of servants or slaves to human masters.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Innocents don't need to die for the elves to reclaim their kingdom back from the Orlesian Empire.[/quote]

Because, as we all know, forced relocations are very peaceful and friendly events. It's all camarederies and hugs.
No violence at all. [/quote]

It's an alternative to purges and living at the mercy of humans in Alienages. Of course, I'm addressing the elves becoming masters of their own fate, instead of living in squalor under human rule. Humans had centuries to change, and they haven't. The Alienage elves shouldn't have to wait for humans to stop being bigots, or for the templars to stop hunting down the Dalish.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

With the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian civil war, it's the perfect opportunity to reclaim the Dales while the human nations are occupied with other matters.[/quote]

And if the elves have the military strength and political pull to conquer and hold the Dales, there clearly are other alternatives open that don't involve human massacres.
Are you just going to ignore that?[/quote]

This is an era when templars hunt down the Dalish, and Merrill's comments that half of Thedas would attack a new elven kingdom. If building a new kingdom was easy, the Dalish would have done it by now. The inferred massacre of the Dalish at the Hinterlands should illuminate how humans respond to neighboring Dalish.

Furthermore, I'm addressing aiding a potential elven rebellion in the Dales to help the elves reclaim their kingdom from the Orlesian Empire. With the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian civil war, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to regain control of their homeland.

[Stella-Arc]

^@LobselVith8

I must have missed this. What you mean by, "inferred massacre of the Dalish at the Hinterlands"? I don't recall ever hearing something like that.

[Ausstig]

Also the Elves have never even tried to work with Humans after they got the Dales. They just shut them selves off and even let the Darkspawn ravage human land on their boarders. They did try to help or get along they shut them selves off, while the 'evil humans' fought and died to save Thedas.

[BlueMagitek]

And, again, the Dalish left the lands they were given almost immediately. So they really aren't mature enough to handle it. :/

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ausstig wrote...

Also the Elves have never even tried to work with Humans after they got the Dales. They just shut them selves off and even let the Darkspawn ravage human land on their boarders. They did try to help or get along they shut them selves off, while the 'evil humans' fought and died to save Thedas.

1)and why they should?, isolated themselfs on their own territories is still isolated themselfs and Orlais know about that...only Orlais allways try to go into their territories and force them to accept Orlais culture and believe in Andraste with Maker to contoll their society and when Chantry failed with propogandaOrlais started a war against them...the same thing they try to do in Orzammar

2)but they still need to defend their own terrytories, their own citys and their own peoples...and why they need to care about some Orlais peoples who tryed to force them to believe in Maker and accept Orlais culture to controling them?

3)Dwarves did the same thing, and you forget that Dales not require any human help against darkspawns and even no one  ask Dales for help, not Grey Wardens and not Orlais, and no one give something for free
.....when Zatrian was asked by Grey Wardens about help they helped

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 28 avril 2013 - 05:52 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
In the realm of Dragon Age, things haven't changed for the elves for over a millennia. ...

Now now Lobsel... that's not true. A millenia ago the elves had a homeland. Then they lost it. That's a change

More seriously though... there's the permanent Dalish elven settlement outside Ayesleigh, Antiva. I think I read that was a gift for the elves following Garahel's sacrefice in Ayesleigh's defence. But I'm not sure where I read that. There's also one in Llomeryn.

There's also the elves that join the Qun, their lot in life changes rather dramatically.

Even the participation of the Dalish during the Fifth Blight, and the Hero of Ferelden being a Dalish Warden, doesn't stop the racism towards the Dalish clans after a short period of time, or the inferred massacre of the Dalish who migrate to the Hinterlands.

I've never seen this one before and the wiki mentions nothing about this. City elves, yes. Dalish elves, no. You don't happen to have a handy link lying about?

Modifié par Sir JK, 28 avril 2013 - 06:07 .

[BlueMagitek]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Also the Elves have never even tried to work with Humans after they got the Dales. They just shut them selves off and even let the Darkspawn ravage human land on their boarders. They did try to help or get along they shut them selves off, while the 'evil humans' fought and died to save Thedas.

1)and why they should?, isolated themselfs on their own territories is still isolated themselfs and Orlais know about that...only Orlais allways try to go into their territories and force them to accept Orlais culture and believe in Andraste with Maker to contoll their society and when Chantry failed with propogandaOrlais started a war against them...the same thing they try to do in Orzammar

2)but they still need to defend their own terrytories, their own citys and their own peoples...and why they need to care about some Orlais peoples who tryed to force them to believe in Maker and accept Orlais culture to controling them?

3)Dwarves did the same thing, and you forget that Dales not require any human help against darkspawns and even no one  ask Dales for help, not Grey Wardens and not Orlais, and no one give something for free
.....when Zatrian was asked by Grey Wardens about help they helped

1) Because no nation exists in a vacuum?   Besides, it has been pointed out time and time again that Orlais had been doing that for ~80 years or so at that point.  And, if we are going to draw a parallel to what happens in Orzammar, then the Dalish are guilty of murdering peaceful missionaries.  And even then, that only led to war with Orlais.  The Exalted March did not come until they sacked VR, the 'Vatican City' of the Chantry.  They did not want to prevent Chantry propoganda, they wanted conquest.

2) The Darkspawn are the enemies of all living things.  They do not discriminate between elf, dwarf, qunari or human.  By allowing the Darkspawn to ravage human lands, without offering any aid (to the point of a Dalish army literally standing on the sidelines doing nothing but watching while the Darkspawn ravaged cities).  It doesn't matter if they believed in the Maker or not.

3) The Dwarves still maintain trade with the surface and they serve as a buffer against the Darkspawn.  The Dales did neither (allowing Darkspawn to ravage human cities).  You have no evidence that no one asked the Dales for assistance (especially as they literally had an army on the scene).  Zathrian was forced to aid the Grey Wardens by the treaty.  It was the Werewolves who helped out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Sir JK
1)so its time for Orlais with Chantry to pay for 900 years land rent with their blood
2)nope they not have any granted territories in Antiva...in Llomeryn island they already have lived

may be you need  join to Qun herself and become a mindless tool for Tamassarants will

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 28 avril 2013 - 06:26 .

[Sir JK]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Sir JK
1)so its time for Orlais with Chantry to pay for 900 years land rent with their blood

Well... I believe my signature neatly explains my view on this mindset.

2)nope they not have any granted territories in Antiva...in Llomeryn island they already have lived

Strange... I thought I read it somewhere... but cannot find it now. Maybe I just misread. If I find it... I'll get back to you.

may be you need  join to Qun herself and become a mindless tool for Tamassarants will

Hardly called for, now is it? Lobsel said the elven situation has not changed in 1000 years, I pointed out that it has changed a little. I did not say it was changes for the better.

[Asdrubael Vect]

BlueMagitek wrote...

1) Because no nation exists in a vacuum?   Besides, it has been pointed out time and time again that Orlais had been doing that for ~80 years or so at that point.  And, if we are going to draw a parallel to what happens in Orzammar, then the Dalish are guilty of murdering peaceful missionaries.  And even then, that only led to war with Orlais.  The Exalted March did not come until they sacked VR, the 'Vatican City' of the Chantry.  They did not want to prevent Chantry propoganda, they wanted conquest.

2) The Darkspawn are the enemies of all living things.  They do not discriminate between elf, dwarf, qunari or human.  By allowing the Darkspawn to ravage human lands, without offering any aid (to the point of a Dalish army literally standing on the sidelines doing nothing but watching while the Darkspawn ravaged cities).  It doesn't matter if they believed in the Maker or not.

3) The Dwarves still maintain trade with the surface and they serve as a buffer against the Darkspawn.  The Dales did neither (allowing Darkspawn to ravage human cities).  You have no evidence that no one asked the Dales for assistance (especially as they literally had an army on the scene).  Zathrian was forced to aid the Grey Wardens by the treaty.  It was the Werewolves who helped out of the goodness of their hearts.

1)but they still lived and not wanted to be a part of Orlais society who not cares about them and want to controll them and force them to live like Orlais with Chantry wanted.

and sister Petrice also claimed that Qunari killed son of Vicont, and Chantry without problem may pay for Carta(they brought Lyrium to Chantry) to kill one dwarven priest...we all know how that Chantry system works.

if they want a conquest they may did it before Orlais Empire when humans lived in separeted tribes. and Orlais Empire attack them first

2)and i always see how Orlais  help dwarves to fight agains Darkspawns in deep roads and how they help Rivains and year Orlais help Ferelden in 5 blight:D 

city was destroed by darkspawns and only chantry claimed in their history that Elves have a army in Olrais terrytories(but why elves have armys on Orlais territories when they really need to defend Dales:huh: maybe dales even have an army in Anderfells:D) but not help...and they still was not asked by any one about help(if they really was, so why even chantry not said about this and grey wardens too)

and even if they(but no one did) ask Dales, they still have the right to refusehelping to Orlais if they think that this was necessary....and stil Dales not ask any help from Orlais and Grey wardens and no one help them

for Orlais Chnatry is always matter if it not their territories only for Tevinters blood mages who founded a Grey Wardens was not

3)Dwarvens still allow ravage of many human citys and help only if Grey Wardens ask, so what? Dales also be in danger and elves need to defend their territories and peoples.

and we not have any evidence of Dales army near Orlais city in Orlais territories, but no one from Chantry and Grey Wardens said that they even ask for Dales assistance

werewolfs is a mindless pets of demon who controll them but  after they help they later go away into forests because without Zathrian deamon diyng and werewolfs go insane and mindless...so later you have only more mindless werewolf from humans and elves

and all who help grey wardens do that for something, no one give you armys for free

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 28 avril 2013 - 07:18 .

[Ausstig]

Were you playing a different game?

You can talk and trade with other nations without becoming part of them.

Orlais offered to help Ferelden but Logain didn't let them.

The Werewolves were not mindless; they were gaining minds, it wasn't a daemon it was the "Spirit of the Forest".

[BlueMagitek]

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)but they still lived and not wanted to be a part of Orlais society who not cares about them and want to controll them and force them to live like Orlais with Chantry wanted.

and sister Petrice also claimed that Qunari killed son of Vicont, and Chantry without problem may pay for Carta(they brought Lyrium to Chantry) to kill one dwarven priest...we all know how that Chantry system works.

if they want a conquest they may did it before Orlais Empire when humans lived in separeted tribes. and Orlais Empire attack them first

2)and i always see how Orlais  help dwarves to fight agains Darkspawns in deep roads and how they help Rivains and year Orlais help Ferelden in 5 blight:D 

city was destroed by darkspawns and only chantry claimed in their history that Elves have a army in Olrais terrytories(but why elves have armys on Orlais territories when they really need to defend Dales:huh: maybe dales even have an army in Anderfells:D) but not help...and they still was not asked by any one about help(if they really was, so why even chantry not said about this and grey wardens too)

and even if they(but no one did) ask Dales, they still have the right to refusehelping to Orlais if they think that this was necessary....and stil Dales not ask any help from Orlais and Grey wardens and no one help them

for Orlais Chnatry is always matter if it not their territories only for Tevinters blood mages who founded a Grey Wardens was not

3)Dwarvens still allow ravage of many human citys and help only if Grey Wardens ask, so what? Dales also be in danger and elves need to defend their territories and peoples.

and we not have any evidence of Dales army near Orlais city in Orlais territories, but no one from Chantry and Grey Wardens said that they even ask for Dales assistance

werewolfs is a mindless pets of demon who controll them but  after they help they later go away into forests because without Zathrian deamon diyng and werewolfs go insane and mindless...so later you have only more mindless werewolf from humans and elves

and all who help grey wardens do that for something, no one give you armys for free

1) The Chantry completely sanctioned the Dales, totally fine with it, until they sacked the Vatican City of the Chantry.  A few missionaries were there, protected by Templar, because, as you want to draw a parallel to Orzammar, their missionaries were being murdered. 

So one bad Priestess who is motivated to fight against the Qun, which is actively drawing converts (the Stone is only worshipped by Dwarves), means that all Chantry members are willing to murder their own to make an excuse for war?  That's completely wrong.

The ancestors of the Dalish have always failed at making good decisions.  Why they waited, I do not know, but the war they waged was not a defensive one.  If they wanted to avoid their vaunted Quickening and not be near Andrastian society, they should not have plunged into Orlais.

2) Orzammar does not seem to request aid from the surface (no real word from Kal-Sharok).  Heck, if Harrowmont is on the throne, the aid is actually turned away.  And as Harrowmont represents the traditionalists, that seems to point in an old pattern.

Orlais was not allowed into Ferelden by Loghain.  This is made very clear by Riorden. And Loghain, if you recruit him. 

The Blight erupted in the Free Marshes, the Dales remained neutral while Orlais and Tevinter worked together to put an end to the Blight.   There is no word on the Dales being attacked at all. 

The Grey Wardens were developed in the First Blight, this all happened during the Second Blight.  They were so impressed by Orlais, they converted to the Chantry and began to spread it.

3) The Dwarves were more than happy to fight, they merely did not have a King to lead them.   Again, it was said the Dales remained neutral against the Darkspawn, meaning they did not engage in combat.

Except the information in the background.

No, that's wrong, the Werewolves were developing personalities and traits, the Lady of the Forest merely helped pacify them.  They were not her pets.

[Rayndorn]

 I would love it if we could. In Origins, I was a Dalish Elf Mage (Modded) proud of being a Keeper. It just felt stupid assisting the chantry, because realistically he would be distrustful (at the very least) of the religion. 

[BlueMagitek]

When did you need to assist the Chantry? No one forced you to go to the Chanter's board.

[RedArmyShogun]

Why side with the Elves of a fallen civilization and lower positions of serfdom whos rebellions will be crushed...when there is the Qun?

Glory and Victory as well as freedom for the Elf kind and the Humans that live under the yolk of Oppression of the fuedal lords, and the ignorance of the dwarths can only be solved and found with the Qun.

[The Elder King]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Why side with the Elves of a fallen civilization and lower positions of serfdom whos rebellions will be crushed...when there is the Qun?

Glory and Victory as well as freedom for the Elf kind and the Humans that live under the yolk of Oppression of the fuedal lords, and the ignorance of the dwarths can only be solved and found with the Qun.

I don't think being a lobomotized robot is that better. Expecially if I'm a caged lobomotized robot (from a mage's perspective).
I'm sorry Sten, but I'm going to beat the crap out of the Qun.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 avril 2013 - 02:20 .

[RedArmyShogun]

hhh89 wrote...

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Why side with the Elves of a fallen civilization and lower positions of serfdom whos rebellions will be crushed...when there is the Qun?

Glory and Victory as well as freedom for the Elf kind and the Humans that live under the yolk of Oppression of the fuedal lords, and the ignorance of the dwarths can only be solved and found with the Qun.

I don't think being a lobomotized robot is that better. Expecially if I'm a caged lobomotized robot (mage).
I'm sorry Sten, but I'm going to beat the crap out of the Qun.

Oh I don't recall giving you a choice Bas.

You may try and stop us, but history is on our side. You will bow in servitude. Or you will hear the sound of our boots stepping on your throat.

The Qun will control all of Thedas. Or it will all be burned to Ashes. Glory is found Only in the Qun. You will learn your place.