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[LobselVith8]

Stella-Arc wrote...

^@LobselVith8

I must have missed this. What you mean by, "inferred massacre of the Dalish at the Hinterlands"? I don't recall ever hearing something like that.

It's how some fans interpreted what King Alistair says to Merrill when she asks about the Hinterlands. It's what those fans inferred from his specific dialogue.

Ausstig wrote...

Also the Elves have never even tried to work with Humans after they got the Dales. They just shut them selves off and even let the Darkspawn ravage human land on their boarders. They did try to help or get along they shut them selves off, while the 'evil humans' fought and died to save Thedas.

Why would the elves work with an empire that was conquering their neighbors? I honestly don't understand the mindset of condemning the elves for not opening their borders to conquerors. You continually gloss over the fact that Drakon was launching a series of Exalted Marches and conquering nearby lands to create the Orlesian Empire and a society under worship of the Maker.

According to History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

You honestly think the elves should be condemned because they refused to surrender their territory or their religion to the Orlesian Empire?

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, again, the Dalish left the lands they were given almost immediately. So they really aren't mature enough to handle it. :/

The developers never properly reconciled the fact that Keeper Marethari could show up for the funeral of the Dalish Warden at the end of Origins any more than they reconciled how Anders met Justice if the former was never recruited and the latter was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's how some fans interpreted what King Alistair says to Merrill when she asks about the Hinterlands. It's what those fans inferred from his specific dialogue.

I just looked that one up... there was not a single word about a massacre. It went badly, fine. But a massacre? That is a quite the assumption. For all we know the Dalish could have went there... seen the place... and then said no.

Is it possible that a massacre happened? Yes.
Is it official lore that it did? No

... You continually gloss over the fact that Drakon was launching a series of Exalted Marches and conquering nearby lands to create the Orlesian Empire and a society under worship of the Maker.

He was also sixty years dead... and his successors succeeded in the incredible feat of halving the size of his realm in the time since. And Orlais at the time was focusing on rebuilding and culture...

And even so...

You honestly think the elves should be condemned because they refused to surrender their territory or their religion to the Orlesian Empire?

I believe what was asked for was entering Orlais to save Montsimmard and/or trade. Not giving anything up. Not letting Orlesian soldiers in.

And even if the we would find some sort of justification in staying out of those two endeavours for sake of isolation... the scary bit comes: Sooner or later an isolationist Dales would have to conquer Orlais anyways if they do not trade. Because the ground will only feed so many mouths. Inevitbly the elves would have had to invade Orlais and drive the humans off eventually... or break isolation and engage in massive trade.

They cannot remain isolated in peace side by side with human nations. Not forever.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, again, the Dalish left the lands they were given almost immediately. So they really aren't mature enough to handle it. :/

The developers never properly reconciled the fact that Keeper Marethari could show up for the funeral of the Dalish Warden at the end of Origins any more than they reconciled how Anders met Justice if the former was never recruited and the latter was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes.

So what you are telling me is that the Dalish just up and left because lols.

Yes, I can see why they prefer nomadic life, less responsibility that way.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Also the Elves have never even tried to work with Humans after they got the Dales. They just shut them selves off and even let the Darkspawn ravage human land on their boarders. They did try to help or get along they shut them selves off, while the 'evil humans' fought and died to save Thedas.

1)and why they should?, isolated themselfs on their own territories is still isolated themselfs and Orlais know about that...only Orlais allways try to go into their territories and force them to accept Orlais culture and believe in Andraste with Maker to contoll their society and when Chantry failed with propogandaOrlais started a war against them...the same thing they try to do in Orzammar

2)but they still need to defend their own terrytories, their own citys and their own peoples...and why they need to care about some Orlais peoples who tryed to force them to believe in Maker and accept Orlais culture to controling them?

3)Dwarves did the same thing, and you forget that Dales not require any human help against darkspawns and even no one  ask Dales for help, not Grey Wardens and not Orlais, and no one give something for free
.....when Zatrian was asked by Grey Wardens about help they helped 

1) Because no nation exists in a vacuum?   Besides, it has been pointed out time and time again that Orlais had been doing that for ~80 years or so at that point.  And, if we are going to draw a parallel to what happens in Orzammar, then the Dalish are guilty of murdering peaceful missionaries.  And even then, that only led to war with Orlais.  The Exalted March did not come until they sacked VR, the 'Vatican City' of the Chantry.  They did not want to prevent Chantry propoganda, they wanted conquest.

How are the Dalish guilty of murdering missionaries when they simply kicked them out of their sovereign territory because they had no interest in converting to Drakon's nationalized cult? And why do you think the elves would want to have relations with a conquering empire? That part truly vexes me, because I can't imagine why the Dales would open their borders to an imperialistic nation like Orlais.

BlueMagitek wrote...

2) The Darkspawn are the enemies of all living things.  They do not discriminate between elf, dwarf, qunari or human.  By allowing the Darkspawn to ravage human lands, without offering any aid (to the point of a Dalish army literally standing on the sidelines doing nothing but watching while the Darkspawn ravaged cities).  It doesn't matter if they believed in the Maker or not.

I can understand not aiding an untrustworthy empire that threatens the culture, religion, and freedom of the people living in the kingdom of the Dales. There's also the factor that there's no evidence that the Orlesians even asked for their aid.

BlueMagitek wrote...

3) The Dwarves still maintain trade with the surface and they serve as a buffer against the Darkspawn.  The Dales did neither (allowing Darkspawn to ravage human cities).  You have no evidence that no one asked the Dales for assistance (especially as they literally had an army on the scene).  Zathrian was forced to aid the Grey Wardens by the treaty.  It was the Werewolves who helped out of the goodness of their hearts. 

You have no evidence that anyone did ask for their assistance, either.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...
How are the Dalish guilty of murdering missionaries when they simply kicked them out of their sovereign territory because they had no interest in converting to Drakon's nationalized cult? And why do you think the elves would want to have relations with a conquering empire? That part truly vexes me, because I can't imagine why the Dales would open their borders to an imperialistic nation like Orlais.

I can understand not aiding an untrustworthy empire that threatens the culture, religion, and freedom of the people living in the kingdom of the Dales. There's also the factor that there's no evidence that the Orlesians even asked for their aid.

You have no evidence that anyone did ask for their assistance, either.

There was a comparison made between the reaction at Orzammar and the reaction at the Dales.  Do try to keep up.
And, as it was pointed out, Orlais was currently not expanding at that point. 

Uh, this is against the Darkspawn.  Tevinter and Orlais are able to put aside their differences to fight the Darkspawn.  Darkspawn don't care about your race, or your culture, or your religion.  They want to eat you and rape your women into broodmothers.  If the Dalish are too bigoted and racist to stand against that with humans, then they deserved to be destroyed.

And then why did they not offer aid?

[Asdrubael Vect]

BlueMagitek but you forget that Grey Wardens ask for Tevinter and Orlais help and only because of them they fight together...Tevinter always would be on grey wardens side because they create them to stop blights and Tevinters killed 3 Archdemons

and Orlais never help elves  to defend their Dales or after to defend Dalish clans, elves always do that alone

and city elves not allowed to have weapons and armors and they closed in their Alianage and easily can be killed by darkspawns

Orlais not care about any one, even Loghain understands that Orlais help from Blight would be very bad for Ferelden after blight ends 

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 29 avril 2013 - 01:19 .

[BlueMagitek]

Dark Korsar wrote...

BlueMagitek but you forget that Grey Wardens ask for Tevinter and Orlais help and only because of them they fight together...Tevinter always would be on grey wardens side because they create them to stop blights

and Orlais never help elves  to defend their Dales or after to defend Dalish clans, they always do that alone

Orlais not care about any one, even Loghain understands that Orlais help from Blight would be very bad for Ferelden after blight ends 

Well, as you are so fond of the phrase, I'll repeat it for you.  Where is the proof that it was the Grey Wardens who brought the nations together, and that they did not try to include the Dales as well?  The Emperor of Orlais himself fought on the frontlines against the Blight.

Where is the proof of this?  The Dales were, prior to assaulting VR, ordained by Andraste to exist.  They were also noted as neutral against the Blight, meaning they were not stopping the Darkspawn.

Because the Orlais of DA:O's time is the same as the Orlais centuries/millenia ago.  Right.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's how some fans interpreted what King Alistair says to Merrill when she asks about the Hinterlands. It's what those fans inferred from his specific dialogue. 

I just looked that one up... there was not a single word about a massacre. It went badly, fine. But a massacre? That is a quite the assumption. For all we know the Dalish could have went there... seen the place... and then said no.

Is it possible that a massacre happened? Yes.
Is it official lore that it did? No

I never claimed it was official, I continually pointed out it was what some fans inferred from King Alistair's dialogue in Act III's "King Alistair".

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

... You continually gloss over the fact that Drakon was launching a series of Exalted Marches and conquering nearby lands to create the Orlesian Empire and a society under worship of the Maker.

He was also sixty years dead... and his successors succeeded in the incredible feat of halving the size of his realm in the time since. And Orlais at the time was focusing on rebuilding and culture...

Drakon's legacy of conquest didn't die with him; it lived on with the Orlesian Empire he created. You only need to look at Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden to see that. And the failings of Drakon's successor don't change that this was an empire created through invasion, and dedicated to worship of the Maker. The moment the Chantry had defeated the elves, they made their religion illegal, and forced the elves to convert to their religion.

Sir JK wrote...

And even so...

You honestly think the elves should be condemned because they refused to surrender their territory or their religion to the Orlesian Empire?

I believe what was asked for was entering Orlais to save Montsimmard and/or trade. Not giving anything up. Not letting Orlesian soldiers in.

The elves would be aiding an empire that couldn't invade the Free Marches because of the issues they had with the Dales at the time. You have an imperialistic nation that wants to expand and convert because they want the Chant to be sung from the four corners of the world, because their faith teaches that this is the only way to bring back the Maker. Why would the elves risk their soldiers to help an enemy that threatens their land, their culture, and their religion?

Sir JK wrote...

And even if the we would find some sort of justification in staying out of those two endeavours for sake of isolation... the scary bit comes: Sooner or later an isolationist Dales would have to conquer Orlais anyways if they do not trade. Because the ground will only feed so many mouths. Inevitbly the elves would have had to invade Orlais and drive the humans off eventually... or break isolation and engage in massive trade.

They cannot remain isolated in peace side by side with human nations. Not forever.

The elves could have expanded their territory into the nearby Korcari Wilds instead.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never claimed it was official, I continually pointed out it was what some fans inferred from King Alistair's dialogue in Act III's "King Alistair".

Fair enough... I guess I missed that.

Drakon's legacy of conquest didn't die with him; it lived on with the Orlesian Empire he created. You only need to look at Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden to see that. And the failings of Drakon's successor don't change that this was an empire created through invasion, and dedicated to worship of the Maker. The moment the Chantry had defeated the elves, they made their religion illegal, and forced the elves to convert to their religion.

I'm not so sure about that though... Drakon's legacy as a warrior is partly from his conquest of the Inghirsh (one of the two Orlesian peoples, the other being the Ciriane's) and Planasene (later Nevarra) tribes in northern Orlais and battling the Blight. The Ander actually joined the empire of their free will in 1:33 and seceded 32 years later (20 years after Drakon died). He did have ambitions on the Marches prior to the blight, true.

The conquests of the Anderfels (ie. second time around), Nevarra, Kirkwall (and more of the Marches) and Ferelden are all in the Orlais forged by the Orlesian-Dales war. Drakon was a great warrior and spread his religion by the sword... but I wonder if it wasn't the Dales that truly baptized Orlais as the conquering empire.

(World of Thedas as my source for the above, BTW)

You could be right, but the entire thing suggest to me that Orlais and the Dales at the time were more akin to equals than oppressor and future victim.

My personal theory (and I stress that this is a pure guess) is that the reason Orlais went to such great lengths to wipe out everything elven (their culture, nation, language, religion and the Canticle of Shartan) is because they were terrified of the elves. That they honestly feared that the elves could destroy Orlais if they left them. So they sought to wipe out everything the elves could use to rally against them.
Given how massively important Shartan was to Andraste, it's not that far fetched. It also fits why the Canticle was stripped out. So that the elves would not even have him to look up to and draw courage from.

The elves would be aiding an empire that couldn't invade the Free Marches because of the issues they had with the Dales at the time. You have an imperialistic nation that wants to expand and convert because they want the Chant to be sung from the four corners of the world, because their faith teaches that this is the only way to bring back the Maker. Why would the elves risk their soldiers to help an enemy that threatens their land, their culture, and their religion?

Maybe because Darkspawn are everyone's enemy? To actually curry the favour of southern Orlais?
If the Dalish wanted Orlais to leave them be, angering Orlais sounds like a really bad approach to take That sort of thing tend to have the opposite effect.

The elves could have expanded their territory into the nearby Korcari Wilds instead.

I'm sure the Avvar,Chasind and the Alamarri would have been thrilled...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sir JK wrote...

The elves could have expanded their territory into the nearby Korcari Wilds instead.

I'm sure the Avvar,Chasind and the Alamarri would have been thrilled...

Surely those unwashed barbarians would have bowed to the superior wisdom of the Dalish, and recognized that Elvish expansion is in no way the same, as the imperialistic, conquering, oppressive horde, that is Orlais! You see, when the Elves expand they do so with laughter and joy, not war and destruction...

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves could have expanded their territory into the nearby Korcari Wilds instead.

I'm sure the Avvar,Chasind and the Alamarri would have been thrilled...

Surely those unwashed barbarians would have bowed to the superior wisdom of the Dalish, and recognized that Elvish expansion is in no way the same, as the imperialistic, conquering, oppressive horde, that is Orlais! You see, when the Elves expand they do so with laughter and joy, not war and destruction... 

Since the Alamarri were the progenitors of modern Fereldens, I would imagine they would populate the regions that would become the warring teyrnirs that Calenhad and Aldenon brought together, as opposed to the southern reaches of the Korcari Wilds. Given the proximity of the Wilds to "Uncharted Territories", it's possible certain areas might not have been populated at the time.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since the Alamarri were the progenitors of modern Fereldens, I would imagine they would populate the regions that would become the warring teyrnirs that Calenhad and Aldenon brought together, as opposed to the southern reaches of the Korcari Wilds. Given the proximity of the Wilds to "Uncharted Territories", it's possible certain areas might not have been populated at the time.

The Chasind settled the south roughly 1300 years before the Dales were founded (the elves of the period were having trouble with a local upcoming tribe called Tevinter). And even so, the Korcari wilds is separated from the Dales and the Arbor Wilds by the Frostbacks (which is Avvar lands).

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

Were you playing a different game?

You can talk and trade with other nations without becoming part of them.

I think the difference is that we're addressing the Orlesian Empire, which has a habit of invading and occupying other nations since it's inception under Drakon (the first Emperor of Orlais). If your neighbor was created through a series of Exalted Marches intended to create an empire under the worship of the Maker, and your own nation had difficulties with them, would you be eager to open your borders? Especially when you worship different gods than they do, which makes you a "heathen" in their eyes (which was the argument made for attacking Tevinter and the Imperial Chantry when they seperated from the Andrastian Chantry)?

What I'm curious about is what would happen if the kingdom of Dales became independent of Orlais, and it became a mecca for elves across Thedas. As Sir JK pointed out, there are many different groups of elves now, who have different religious and moral views than they did during the time of the inception of the nation. I think it would be fascinating to see how the kingdom would thrive with all these elves having to work together to maintain their autonomy from the Orlesian Empire.

Ausstig wrote...

Orlais offered to help Ferelden but Logain didn't let them.

I don't really disagree with Loghain when it comes to his mistrust of Orlais. Tevinter and Orlais used the Third Blight to invade nations they "helped" at the time, and Orlais tried to invade Ferelden twice before they finally succeeded... occupying the nation for over a century. It seems to be the nature of the Orlesian Empire to invade and conquer other nations, which is why I genuinely wonder why people seem so surprised at the hesitancy that the elves had in dealing with the empire on any level.

While Sir JK makes a valid point that Emperor Drakon II was ineffectual in comparison to his precedessor, I think the history of the inception of the empire would speak volumes for why the elves would keep their distance from the humans of this nation.

And if the kingdom of the Dales became independent again, I'm sure that there would be Orlesians who would want to conquer the former province, which puts them in the same position as Ferelden. Perhaps an alliance between the two might be in order - especially since the new ruler can provide the Hinterlands to the Dalish as a boon for the actions of the Hero of Ferelden from the Sabrae Clan.

Ausstig wrote...

The Werewolves were not mindless; they were gaining minds, it wasn't a daemon it was the "Spirit of the Forest".

True, the Spirit of the Forest helped the werewolves gain some control over themselves. I actually thought that there would be an option to become a werewolf when I originally played this part of Origins.

[Asdrubael Vect]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

The Werewolves were not mindless; they were gaining minds, it wasn't a daemon it was the "Spirit of the Forest".

True, the Spirit of the Forest helped the werewolves gain some control over themselves. I actually thought that there would be an option to become a werewolf when I originally played this part of Origins.

1)spirits of fade is demons too
2)she was a part of demon of fade Witherfang who attaks humans and turn them into werewolfs
3)after Zatrian death she gave them controll for some time, but soon she was died and became Witherfang and werewolfs became mindless and attack humans again....nothing changed because Zatrian did not remove the curse

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 30 avril 2013 - 10:19 .