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[The Night Haunter]

To everyone saying Orlais falling would mean the Qunari would have an easier time I say this: Nevarra is on the rise, its been carving territory out of Orlais for a long time and become a powerful nation in its own right. If Orlais seriously destabilizes and the Dales declare independence then Nevarra could take a big chunk of Orlais and rise to the prominent position and thus be able to defend against the Qunari.

Not to mention the Qunari seem to have their hands relatively full with Tevinter. The only Qunari offensive outside their war with Tevinter was a utter disaster (as seen in DA2).

[Augustei]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

To everyone saying Orlais falling would mean the Qunari would have an easier time I say this: Nevarra is on the rise, its been carving territory out of Orlais for a long time and become a powerful nation in its own right. If Orlais seriously destabilizes and the Dales declare independence then Nevarra could take a big chunk of Orlais and rise to the prominent position and thus be able to defend against the Qunari.

Not to mention the Qunari seem to have their hands relatively full with Tevinter. The only Qunari offensive outside their war with Tevinter was a utter disaster (as seen in DA2).

So having the most powerful nation in thedas fall apart is alright because at we have Nevarra which is powerful in its own right? Yeah..no, Nevarra couldn't stand against the Qunari on its own  and Orlais's collapse would be a significant blow to any defence the Thedosians could muster against the Qunari.

The Qunari don't have their hands full with Tevinter, as Fenris reveals to us in DA2 they only wanted Seheron which they have, and if they wanted to conquer Tevinter "they simply would"

As to the elves, if they wanted to rise up and fight for the dales then history would simply repeat itself and they would be crushed, They have no experience in war at all beyond fighting the weak ununited barbarian tribes of ferelden several hundred years ago.
They would need to ally with somebody powerful to have any hope: Gaspard, Celene, Alistair/Anora (or yes maybe the Inquisitor depending on what forces they have at their command

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 02 avril 2013 - 07:36 .

[WardenWade]

I'd be interested in the possibility of a third way concerning the brewing Orlesian civil war. As has been mentioned here, should a possible elven uprising occur it would be preferable, IMO, if the elves could accomplish this on their own without a paternalist human character paving the way for them. Likewise, I personally would really like to see any sort of progress for the elves not alienate their human neighbors, who after centuries have about as much of a claim to the Dales as they do. A peaceful coming-to-terms with one another, if possible, would be great. I think the alienage system is an interesting one as well, and would be curious to see how it might be impacted and/or improved.

OT, I'd also like to see dwarves in ascendance in Orlais and beyond as well, both on the surface and in nearby Orzammar (the Stone lies under Orlais, after all). The lyrium aspect of the mage/templar conflict for example seems, IMO, sure to involve them in no small part.

Modifié par WardenWade, 05 avril 2013 - 04:31 .

[Augustei]

Foshizzlin wrote...

I think you're giving the Qunari a little too much credit Deon. Every time we've seen them in battle, they typically get thrashed, and naval invasions which they'd have to carry out wouldn't be tough to defend against. Orlais falling to them wouldn't be the end of the world; thanks to the Warden, Ferelden fought off the 5th Blight which was far stronger than anything the Qunari could ever do, so a united front of Ferelden and the Elves would stop them dead in their tracks.

We've only ever fought against a small company of the Qunari, not their entire army. The naval battles would be the worst part, they have cannons and far more advanced ships.

Ferelden fought off a blight that hadn't even truely begun yet something that is said several times throughout the game "Stopped the blight before it truely begun" and it was nearly completely destroyed in the process, Any true Blight has threatened all of thedas.. Like the Qunari who conquered Rivain, Antiva, much of the Free Marches and more than half of tevinter, laying siege to their capital.

A united Ferelden + the elves would be nowhere near enough to stop the Qunari, they would be slaughtered. Especially since Ferelden still hasn't properly recovered from the blight.
The last Qunari invasion the Qunari were essentially charging in blind, they had just arrived in thedas and knew very little about it. Now however, they have had their spies gathering intel as we learned in MOTA and they have been preparing and building up their forces for centuries.

You say I give the Qunari to much credit, I say you give them far to little

[SafetyShattered]

I'd love to have the option to do this. I've always felt bad for the elves. Would love to help them and just say "screw you" to everyone else.

[The Night Haunter]

XxDeonxX wrote...

We've only ever fought against a small company of the Qunari, not their entire army. The naval battles would be the worst part, they have cannons and far more advanced ships.

Ferelden fought off a blight that hadn't even truely begun yet something that is said several times throughout the game "Stopped the blight before it truely begun" and it was nearly completely destroyed in the process, Any true Blight has threatened all of thedas.. Like the Qunari who conquered Rivain, Antiva, much of the Free Marches and more than half of tevinter, laying siege to their capital.

A united Ferelden + the elves would be nowhere near enough to stop the Qunari, they would be slaughtered. Especially since Ferelden still hasn't properly recovered from the blight.
The last Qunari invasion the Qunari were essentially charging in blind, they had just arrived in thedas and knew very little about it. Now however, they have had their spies gathering intel as we learned in MOTA and they have been preparing and building up their forces for centuries.

You say I give the Qunari to much credit, I say you give them far to little

Everything you're saying is based on hearsay. Just cause Fenris said it doesn't make it so, especially since his antagonism to Tevinter is bigger than a mountain. The only real evidence we have of Qunari (seen by our own/our characters eyes) is DA2 where they get crushed, and that is an army commanded by their best general with three years to plan his attack. It's always been said that Qunari populations are small, that's why they lost the Exalted Marches.
I'm not saying if Orlais gets sucked into a black hole everybody else will be fine, I'm saying if Orlais loses its conquered territories (the dales and the area near navarra that's been fought over for a very long time) it would still be powerful enough when combined with the rest of the Andrastian world to repell another Qunari attack. Worst case for Orlais they are still powerful at the end of the civil war, even if they lose the dales and some of their conquered city-states the core Orliesian territory remains under their control (cause no-one else is powerful enough at this time to conquer and hold it). They'd just be in the position Ferelden was in immediately after the Fifth Blight, weakened but not out.

[Sir JK]

Isn't it a bit premature to debate wether to join the elves or not when we do not even know for a fact there is an elven uprising or if it features in the game or not (let alone what they'd stand for)?

But to turn the question around, if we assume there is a potential of a elven faction: What do you imagine they're fighting for? What themes and motives do you wish to explore by joining this imagined elven faction (and why is it opposed to either Celene or Gaspard)? And what resolution to that conflict do you desire?

Also: Keep in mind that the Dales have been Orlesian for 800 years now, that's twice as long as they were elven. I can't imagine there not living any humansthere at all. An elven victory that means the establishment of a new elven Dales warrants the question what will happen with all the orlesian farmers, villagers, craftsmen, hunters. chantry priests and men-at-arms that live there now. Not every orlesian is a scheming expansionistic noble.

[Tinu]

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide." - Sandal

I believe all elves will be able to use magic again. I doubt humans will be strong enough to fight so many mages with a purpose.

[azarhal]

TinuHawke wrote...

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide." - Sandal

I believe all elves will be able to use magic again. I doubt humans will be strong enough to fight so many mages with a purpose.

hmm, I think that Sandal's quote meant that everyone will have magical powers not just elves. Also, it was mentioned in DAII that there are more and more childs born with magic and The Silent Grove gave us the reason: the return of the dragons. In other word, when the elves say that they all had the gift and were "immortals", it's quite probable that the humans were as well.

[andy6915]

How do the number of dragon affect the number of mages born? Dragons are just really big animals in DA, nothing special. The Archdemons and "old gods" are special, but a high dragon is merely an apex predator. How could they affect other species just by existing?

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Isn't it a bit premature to debate wether to join the elves or not when we do not even know for a fact there is an elven uprising or if it features in the game or not (let alone what they'd stand for)?

It's speculation. It's also preferable (to me) to siding with either Celene or Gaspard.

Sir JK wrote...

But to turn the question around, if we assume there is a potential of a elven faction: What do you imagine they're fighting for? What themes and motives do you wish to explore by joining this imagined elven faction (and why is it opposed to either Celene or Gaspard)? And what resolution to that conflict do you desire?

A faction could be fighting for their independence from the Orlesian Empire, to restore the sovereignty of the Dales. It could be interesting to have a protagonist work with the elven leadership towards this goal. We could see the myriad of elven leaders and their various ideologies and goals. How would the Alienage leadership interact with the elders of the People? What ideas might they have for an independent elven kingdom? This might be the perfect opportunity to emancipate themselves, with the Mage-Templar War going on and distracting the rest of the world. And the elven faction could be opposed by the simple fact that they want to rule themselves, rather than capitulating to two sides of the same draconian coin.

Sir JK wrote...

Also: Keep in mind that the Dales have been Orlesian for 800 years now, that's twice as long as they were elven. I can't imagine there not living any humansthere at all. An elven victory that means the establishment of a new elven Dales warrants the question what will happen with all the orlesian farmers, villagers, craftsmen, hunters. chantry priests and men-at-arms that live there now. Not every orlesian is a scheming expansionistic noble.

The same was true for the Hinterlands, but it was still given to the Dalish by the new ruler in the Dalish US Ending or with the Dalish Warden asking for her people to be given their own homeland.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A faction could be fighting for their independence from the Orlesian Empire, to restore the sovereignty of the Dales. It could be interesting to have a protagonist work with the elven leadership towards this goal. We could see the myriad of elven leaders and their various ideologies and goals. How would the Alienage leadership interact with the elders of the People? What ideas might they have for an independent elven kingdom? This might be the perfect opportunity to emancipate themselves, with the Mage-Templar War going on and distracting the rest of the world. And the elven faction could be opposed by the simple fact that they want to rule themselves, rather than capitulating to two sides of the same draconian coin.

Isn't this basically the same story as the mage-templar struggle though? The oppressed standing up to the oppressor? While it is an easy jump to make certainly, and it is not entirely unreasonable of them to harbour such thoughts.

But how narratively interesting is it if you're not terribly interested in elves? What can this story tell us that the Mage-Templar one is not already covering? What approaches can be taken and dilemmas posed that we haven't already been faced with? What exactly is different with this one? Two rebellions are not more interesting than one, rather the opposite.
Let's face it, that this lot is elves and not mages is not much of a difference. That they had a past is not a difference because so have the mages. They can't even claim the "we're born different"-trait because so are the mages.
What exactly is it that this elven uprising can bring us that the mages have not/cannot? (I have two ideas I'll suggest at the end of this post)

I have gotten the impression that the notion of a Just Rebellion/Revolution appeals to you a lot out of a story perspective. In fact, the very bit I quoted highlights just that. The very words chosen points out that you've already painted a picture in your mind of righteous elven rebels but more importantly... the sentiment in your post suggests that the elves have already won. Your rethorical questions aren't about the elven struggle. They're about the result. The only things related to the struggle are statements on how this succes was gained.

So that leads me to ask:
Is it the struggle to free themselves or the possiblity of being there to build a new elven homeland which interests you most? Because they're not one and the same neccessarily.

Just to be clear. I think either's fine, great even. But if you wish to see the elves victorious and engage in the very interesting story of building a new homeland then perhaps that is what we should clear about, rather than merely discussing siding with the elves.

And if it is indeed the struggle itself...I did mention I had two ideas that would make it different from the mage-templar story. Namely:
1. Would the struggle be as interesting if it actually proves the Chantry "propaganda" of old true (ie. includes stuff akin to blood sacrefice, brutal murder of innocents, enslaving of non-elves and even exacting revenge on "disloyal" elves). That it actually asks of you to help it be the very worst kind of "freedom"-struggle.

2. Would it be as interesting if it was a story of a doomed struggle and that it will ultimately be crushed?

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A faction could be fighting for their independence from the Orlesian Empire, to restore the sovereignty of the Dales. It could be interesting to have a protagonist work with[/i] the elven leadership towards this goal. We could see the myriad of elven leaders and their various ideologies and goals. How would the Alienage leadership interact with the elders of the People? What ideas might they have for an independent elven kingdom? This might be the perfect opportunity to emancipate themselves, with the Mage-Templar War going on and distracting the rest of the world. And the elven faction could be opposed by the simple fact that they want to rule themselves, rather than capitulating to two sides of the same draconian coin.

Isn't this basically the same story as the mage-templar struggle though? The oppressed standing up to the oppressor? While it is an easy jump to make certainly, and it is not entirely unreasonable of them to harbour such thoughts. 

But how narratively interesting is it if you're not terribly interested in elves? What can this story tell us that the Mage-Templar one is not already covering? What approaches can be taken and dilemmas posed that we haven't already been faced with? What exactly is different with this one? Two rebellions are not more interesting than one, rather the opposite. 
Let's face it, that this lot is elves and not mages is not much of a difference. That they had a past is not a difference because so have the mages. They can't even claim the "we're born different"-trait because so are the mages. 
What exactly is it that this elven uprising can bring us that the mages have not/cannot? (I have two ideas I'll suggest at the end of this post)

I have gotten the impression that the notion of a Just Rebellion/Revolution appeals to you a lot out of a story perspective. In fact, the very bit I quoted highlights just that. The very words chosen points out that you've already painted a picture in your mind of righteous elven rebels but more importantly... the sentiment in your post suggests that the elves have already won. Your rethorical questions aren't about the elven struggle. They're about the result. The only things related to the struggle are statements on how this succes was gained. 

So that leads me to ask:
Is it the struggle to free themselves or the possiblity of being there to build a new elven homeland which interests you most?[/i]  Because they're not one and the same neccessarily.

Just to be clear. I think either's fine, great even. But if you wish to see the elves victorious and engage in the very interesting story of building a new homeland then perhaps that is what we should clear about, rather than merely discussing siding with the elves. 

And if it is indeed the struggle itself...I did mention I had two ideas that would make it different from the mage-templar story. Namely:
1. Would the struggle be as interesting if it actually proves the Chantry "propaganda" of old true (ie. includes stuff akin to blood sacrefice, brutal murder of innocents, enslaving of non-elves and even exacting revenge on "disloyal" elves). That it actually asks of you to help it be the very worst[/u] kind of "freedom"-struggle.

2. Would it be as interesting if it was a story of a doomed struggle and that it will ultimately be crushed?

You could also say that the choice between Celene and Gaspard is reminiscent of the past choices between two different political leaders, with the hypothetical opportunity to aid the elves giving more variety to this scenario by allowing the protagonist to help irrevocably change the lives of the elves for the better (or for the worst, depending on your actions). Having a human protagonist recognize the injustice of the occupation is different than having apostate Hawke or the Surana Warden take actions to help their fellow mages.

As for whether it would be interesting, couldn't you ask the same question about the Mage-Templar War, when most people have already made up their minds about this dichotomy? Or the schism in Orlesian politics for people who are disinterested in helping Orlais?

There is a lot of story potential to tell with Andrastian elves and Dalish elves working together towards a common goal, which is different than mage rebels fighting to maintain their autonomy. The elven struggle to build a new kingdom with two drastically different cultures of elves.

This thread is open for discussion on all possibilities of a hypothetical elven struggle to forge a new kingdom, possibly by reclaiming the Dales. Since Arlathan and the Dales fell, it would be interesting (to me) to see a story where the elves could succeed in getting (and maintaining) their own nation, with the trials and tribulations that will inevitably follow such a victory.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Sir JK]

I'm interested in most possibilities. The notion of rebuilding a new elven homeland has a lot of appeal, I could see an entire game (or maybe just DLC-length addon) revolving around it. It is an excellent potential for a setting that asks the hard questions and really do tempt you to (ab)use power.
But equally, fighting in a lost cause has a lot of appeal to me as a rpg-setting/game focused on the experience of the struggle and the dawning realisation that we're all going to die the martyr's death.

Both are very interesting. However, as you might guess, the uprising as a repetition of the mage-templar one is not that appealing to me. Maybe to echo or put the other one in reference (thus making it a part of the other plot). But I'd prefer it being another story with different questions and different situations to put our protagonist in.

[Ausstig]

I would rather kill the elves. Mainly because they are massive ****holes. When they had the Dales, they watched as a human city was destoryed in the blight, and then refussed to trade with them after wards in order to elp them rebuildl THEN starting a war with the humans and trying to desotry the home of their religion. If Humans had donw this to Elves, people would call them massive racists and other, worse things. So why is it ok when elves are racial supremicts? 

[TheShadowWolf911]

you all are thinking too small..........why not claim it for YOURSELF? Why not do that? you can still ally with the elves (Give the Dalish land in exhange for help, City Elf soldiers in exchange for Equality.), the mages or templars in exchange for less or more restrictions on the mages, and other allies. (whether or no you actually keep your end of the bargain in any of those cases could be up to you)

Why not take Orlais for yourself?

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 03 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[TK514]

I think it is a fantastic idea to allow us to join with the elves in opposition to both Celene and Gaspard.

That way, the two can put aside their differences in the face of a common foe and ensure that by the end of the slaughter there aren't enough living elves left in Orlais to fill an Alienage. Or a Tevinter slave caravan. Though I'm sure Celene wouldn't learn the lesson that using diplomacy when dealing with elves is a waste of time and that force is the only thing they understand. No doubt she would look on her betrayers and their cause with kindness and understanding.

Right?

Anyhow, it's always a great idea to betray someone with progressive ideas about dealing with oppressed minorities and drive her and her well trained and equipped army into the arms of someone who may or may not consider your entire community less valuable than his horse.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

I would rather kill the elves. Mainly because they are massive ****holes.

I'm certain Loghain would say the same about the Orlesian Empire.

Ausstig wrote...

When they had the Dales, they watched as a human city was destoryed in the blight, and then refussed to trade with them after wards in order to elp them rebuildl

We also know that Drakon's fledgling Orlesian empire was conquering it's neighbors and imposing Drakon's Cult of Andraste (the Chantry of Andraste) on the people. I can understand why the elves would be wary about aiding an imperialistic empire that wanted to conquer them and impose their religion on the elves, which is precisely what transpired after the fall of the Dales.

Ausstig wrote...

THEN starting a war with the humans and trying to desotry the home of their religion.

According to the Orlesian version. The Dalish claim the Chantry missionaries tried to convert them, they kicked out the missionaries from their sovereign territory, and the Chantry responded by sending templars into the Dales. The elven Warden can even condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales for religious reasons.

Two sides to the story.

Ausstig wrote...

If Humans had donw this to Elves, people would call them massive racists and other, worse things. So why is it ok when elves are racial supremicts? 

The elves of the Dales wanted to isolate themselves to restore their culture and reclaim their immortality (which their lore says was lost due to human contact), which is why the elves kept to themselves. The developers also confirmed that Dalish elves live longer than their city brethren, and Marethari was said to be over a hundred years old. In addition, the elves didn't want to convert to Drakon's new religion.

[MisterJB]

WardenWade wrote...
Likewise, I personally would really like to see any sort of progress for the elves not alienate their human neighbors, who after centuries have about as much of a claim to the Dales as they do.

A sensible elven supporter? What is the world coming to?
I'm far more used to suggestions of giving the entirety of Orlais to the elves and kill any humans who refused to move and I'm honestly unsure how to deal with this.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Likewise, I personally would really like to see any sort of progress for the elves not alienate their human neighbors, who after centuries have about as much of a claim to the Dales as they do.

A sensible elven supporter? What is the world coming to?

Your view of 'sensible' seems to be: 'people who have the same opinion as me'. And we already know what has happened to the Alienage elves who tried to live outside the Alienage, among the human populace: human bigots burned down their homes.

MisterJB wrote...

I'm far more used to suggestions of giving the entirety of Orlais to the elves and kill any humans who refused to move and I'm honestly unsure how to deal with this. 

I remember that thread, and how several pages were spent pointing out how you were wrong about what was being suggested. It derailed the thread, and it was apparently a waste of time since you refuse to acknowledge how it was pointed out that you were mistaken. The topic of discussion back then was about a potential alliance between the people in charge of the mage rebels and the leaders of the various clans of the Dalish, with the suggestion being made that the People could be persuaded to fight alongside the rebel mages if they could receive something in return: their own homeland.

From the initial suggestion of reclaiming the Dales, which is now under Orlesian occupation, to the addition of trying to sweeten the deal by suggesting the expansion of their homeland into territory that belonged to the Orlesian Empire in an effort to convince all the leaders of the Dalish clans to get behind this potential alliance. You seemed to oppose the suggestion, but it's similar to the Dalish Boon, where The Warden of the Sabrae Clan can ask for her people to be given to their own land, and the new ruler provides the Hinterlands, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar (despite the fact that we already know from the Stone Prisoner that there are human settlements in the Hinterlands).

This should be familiar to anyone who has played as the Dragonborn in Skyrim, where the protagonist can support the Legion or the Stormcloaks in their civil war by helping a specific faction get territory from their enemy and assist their allies in consolidating power and territory, leading to deposed Jarls and the execution of the antagonist leaders who refuse to capitulate.

Also, there was no suggestion of committing genocide against civilians, only targetting leaders in the same fashion that The Warden went after Arl Howe and Teyrn Loghain in Origins. This was pointed out to you over and over and over again. I'm not certain why you're pretending as though you weren't corrected on the issue repeatedly. Your only basis for this claim was that the Bolshevik Revolution was mentioned, except it was brought up because it was an example of an uprising against the people who wielded all the power.

[drake heath]

As an imperialist I resent the notion of helping elves.

Modifié par drake heath, 04 avril 2013 - 08:38 .

[Felya87]

Just as long a I can destroy the chantry and those humans templar...

I think I would side with the mages only becare there are a lot of Elf mages.

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

I would rather kill the elves. Mainly because they are massive ****holes.

I'm certain Loghain would say the same about the Orlesian Empire.

Ausstig wrote...

When they had the Dales, they watched as a human city was destoryed in the blight, and then refussed to trade with them after wards in order to elp them rebuildl

1. We also know that Drakon's fledgling Orlesian empire was conquering it's neighbors and imposing Drakon's Cult of Andraste (the Chantry of Andraste) on the people. I can understand why the elves would be wary about aiding an imperialistic empire that wanted to conquer them and impose their religion on the elves, which is precisely what transpired after the fall of the Dales.

Ausstig wrote...

THEN starting a war with the humans and trying to desotry the home of their religion.

2. According to the Orlesian version. The Dalish claim the Chantry missionaries tried to convert them, they kicked out the missionaries from their sovereign territory, and the Chantry responded by sending templars into the Dales. The elven Warden can even condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales for religious reasons.

Two sides to the story.

Ausstig wrote...

If Humans had donw this to Elves, people would call them massive racists and other, worse things. So why is it ok when elves are racial supremicts? 

3. The elves of the Dales wanted to isolate themselves to restore their culture and reclaim their immortality (which their lore says was lost due to human contact), which is why the elves kept to themselves. The developers also confirmed that Dalish elves live longer than their city brethren, and Marethari was said to be over a hundred years old. In addition, the elves didn't want to convert to Drakon's new religion.

1. So that makes it ok for the evles to stand there and watch the darkspawn destory a human village? Also the elves are not some small city state, they were a large nation and Orlais was in no shape for a war. As the actual war showed. If humans had let an elven city die during the blight becuas the VChantry told them to stay away for elve, people would call them worse the Hitler, but for the elves, thats fine.

2/3 But the elves let a human city die for religous reasons! They also closed their boarders for religious reasons. Their religion told them if they kept away from humans they would be imortial. The Chanty says that if every one sings the chant they the world will be saved. Why is it ok for the elve to hurt people because their reilgion says so but no the humans?  

Why did the elve keep pushing towards Val Royeaux? Why not stop at the heart land if all they wanted was a buffer? I think they wanted to wipe out Orlais and since they religion told them to have no contact with humans...... well I think the elves may have planed some 'demogrpahic shifts' if you catch my meaning.

Also maybe the reason that Dalish elves live longer then city elves is beacuse they don't live in a freaken slum.

The point I was trying to make was that people here give the elves the befit of the doubt but condem humans if they act in the same way. It's an annoying double standard.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

1. So that makes it ok for the evles to stand there and watch the darkspawn destory a human village? Also the elves are not some small city state, they were a large nation and Orlais was in no shape for a war. As the actual war showed. If humans had let an elven city die during the blight becuas the VChantry told them to stay away for elve, people would call them worse the Hitler, but for the elves, thats fine.

You're blaming the elven army for not helping an enemy that was giving them trouble since Emperor Drakon was alive? Kordillus Drakon created the Orlesian Empire by invading his neighbors as King (and imposing his religion on the people under his rule), and he would've invaded the Free Marches, except he was having difficulties with the Dales.

Orlais is an imperalistic empire with a leadership that has consistently sought to conquer others. Orlais used the threat of the darkspawn to conquer Nevarra after the Third Blight, which is likely why Loghain was hesitant about having Orlesian soldiers on Ferelden soil to "help" them deal with the Fifth Blight (aside from their conquest and occupation of Ferelden for over a century). And the Chantry of Andraste - created by Drakon - publicly supported the invasion of Ferelden, which is why Maric and Loghain discussed what they were going to do about the local Chantry in Ferelden. There is a symbiotic relationship between Orlais and the Chantry.

Ausstig wrote...

2/3 But the elves let a human city die for religous reasons! They also closed their boarders for religious reasons. Their religion told them if they kept away from humans they would be imortial. The Chanty says that if every one sings the chant they the world will be saved. Why is it ok for the elve to hurt people because their reilgion says so but no the humans?

You seem to be conflating religion with history in your paragraph. The elves of the Dales followed the Creators; the elves kept out humans from their sovereign nation because they wanted to regain their immortality and their culture, since their history (of the ancient kingdom of Arlathan) informed them that the ancient elves lost their immortality and their longevity because of contact with humans, "the quicklings".

According to elven lore, the ancient elves "felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshiped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams."

Further in their lore, it describes their first contact with the immigrating humans: "When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy.

"But the humans brought worse things than war with them. Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives. Many believed that the ancient gods had judged them unworthy of their long lives and cast them down among the quicklings."

Ausstig wrote...

Why did the elve keep pushing towards Val Royeaux? Why not stop at the heart land if all they wanted was a buffer?

Considering that Orlais was giving the elves trouble since the empire's inception, the Chantry was said to have sent templars into force conversion, and Orlais is focused on conquering their neighbors, then I can imagine a few reasons why the elves would want to put their enemy out of commission.

Ausstig wrote...

I think they wanted to wipe out Orlais and since they religion told them to have no contact with humans...... well I think the elves may have planed some 'demogrpahic shifts' if you catch my meaning.

The elven religion doesn't tell the elves to have no contact with humans. If that was the case, the Dalish never would have signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens. Marethari never would have spoken to Hawke. Merrill wouldn't interact with her human companions. You're confusing how the Dalish have been informed by their history, and their religion in following the Creators.

Ausstig wrote...

Also maybe the reason that Dalish elves live longer then city elves is beacuse they don't live in a freaken slum.

I don't believe that was the developer's intent in pointing out how the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves, away from human contact (although the developer made a point to say the Dalish don't live as long as the Tolkien elves).

Ausstig wrote...

The point I was trying to make was that people here give the elves the befit of the doubt but condem humans if they act in the same way. It's an annoying double standard.

Because you're comparing an imperalistic empire that conquers other nations with a kingdom of elves who wanted to be left alone after centuries of slavery by humans. For some people, there's a stark difference between the two. It's pretty much the reason why I would prefer to aid the downtrodden elves in reclaiming their homeland, as opposed to two politicians who want to rule the Orlesian Empire.

Elves have lost so much, so I would like the opportunity to change that. Arlathan elves were enslaved by Tevinter, and had their homeland destroyed. According to the historical account of the Dalish, the elves of the Dales had templars invade their homeland when they refused to convert to the Andrastian Chantry, and the elves retaliated, only to lose everything, with the Chantry outlawing the elven religion and forcing the elves who submitted to them to convert to the Chantry. It's not too difficult to understand why some elves immediately distrust humans. Even King Alistair admits to Keeper Marethari: "And while my people cannot truly make up for what we have done to yours, I was hoping to start."