438 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your view of 'sensible' seems to be: 'people who have the same opinion as me'.

In this case, my view of sensible would be "wants the elves to have a better life, still realize that after 700 years, the humans have as much rights to the Dales as anyone else."

And we already know what has happened to the Alienage elves who tried to live outside the Alienage, among the human populace: human bigots burned down their homes.

If we isolated ourselves whenever something bad happened, we would never leave our homes.

I remember that thread, and how several pages were spent pointing out how you were wrong about what was being suggested.

Hmmm? I mentioned no names. I would certainly remember something as unique as you correcting me about something.
The hat must have fit.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 12:26 .

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Let them continue to travel the earth while the City Elves actually work to make something of themselves by working alongside humans and raise themselves as equals.

Because equality happens all on its own if you just bow your head and never make any demands.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your view of 'sensible' seems to be: 'people who have the same opinion as me'.

In this case, my view of sensible would be "wants the elves to have a better life, still realize that after 700 years, the humans have as much rights to the Dales as anyone else."

How's that work?

If I slaughter your family, move into your house and keep all your things, at what point does your property legally become mine, while your surviving relatives are forced to put up with it and co-operate with me if they want equal time in the bathroom?

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your view of 'sensible' seems to be: 'people who have the same opinion as me'.

In this case, my view of sensible would be "wants the elves to have a better life, still realize that after 700 years, the humans have as much rights to the Dales as anyone else."

How's that work?

If I slaughter your family, move into your house and keep all your things, at what point does your property legally become mine, while your surviving relatives are forced to put up with it and co-operate with me if they want equal time in the bathroom?

Depending on the state, around five years, depending on various squatter rights.

And, of course, you not being convicted of murder. That's a big one.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Let them continue to travel the earth while the City Elves actually work to make something of themselves by working alongside humans and raise themselves as equals.

Because equality happens all on its own if you just bow your head and never make any demands.

Because equality happens all on its own if you kill humans for "trespassing" in a forest and threaten anyone who comes your way while cursing people with lycanthopy.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 05 avril 2013 - 12:43 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
How's that work?

If I slaughter your family, move into your house and keep all your things, at what point does your property legally become mine, while your surviving relatives are forced to put up with it and co-operate with me if they want equal time in the bathroom?

The Dales fell 700 years before the Dragon Age. Humans have been living there for numerous generations and the current inhabitants have absolutely nothing to do with what happened centuries ago; regardless of who was in the fault.
It is not right to forcibly relocate them over penalty of death and if that's what the elves are planning, they're welcome to a chevalier's blade to the gut.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 12:45 .

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Let them continue to travel the earth while the City Elves actually work to make something of themselves by working alongside humans and raise themselves as equals.

Because equality happens all on its own if you just bow your head and never make any demands.

Because equality happens all on its own if you kill humans for "trespassing" in a forest and threaten anyone who comes your way while cursing people with lycanthopy.

Humans are trespassing every second of every day that they continue to live anywhere in Thedas.

Zathrien is the only elf who cursed anyone with lycanthropy, and he only cursed the men who killed his son and raped his daughter.

That those same men went on to spread the curse through generations is not his fault.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 avril 2013 - 12:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Humans are trespassing every second of every day that they continue to live anywhere in Thedas.

You are truly laughable.  Thank you, sir, I quite enjoyed that.

Edit:

Ah, you changed your statement around, well let me see if I can't answer your strawman response to my strawman used to counter your straw.

That we know of.  And thanks to him it's now suspected that some form of magic ritual is related to, if not immortality, than long life.  He never denied the claim that he had discovered the Dalish origin of immortality.  If I recall correctly, of course. =D

Hmm, yeah, I am going to blame the guy who chose to curse a bad person with the ability to transform others into monsterous killing machines.   He could have killed him, easily, or inflicted any other sort of curse that would have caused him pain, but he chose a viral one.  Every death by the werewolves, every transformation, is on his head.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 05 avril 2013 - 12:52 .

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Humans are trespassing every second of every day that they continue to live anywhere in Thedas.

You are truly laughable.  Thank you, sir, I quite enjoyed that.

It says a lot that you find genocide and brutal oppression amusing.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
It says a lot that you find genocide and brutal oppression amusing.

You're the one who said all humans are trespassers anywhere at anytime in Thedas.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

It says a lot that you find genocide and brutal oppression amusing.

Yes, that is what I find amusing, truly.  You are on quite a roll tonight. 

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
It says a lot that you find genocide and brutal oppression amusing.

You're the one who said all humans are trespassers anywhere at anytime in Thedas.

It's true. The fact that they didn't personally steal the land does not change the fact that the land is stolen.

I dunno how you were raised, but I was taught that stolen property should be returned.

[Xilizhra]

Hmm, yeah, I am going to blame the guy who chose to curse a bad person with the ability to transform others into monsterous killing machines. He could have killed him, easily, or inflicted any other sort of curse that would have caused him pain, but he chose a viral one. Every death by the werewolves, every transformation, is on his head.

Why does that have anything to do with the Dalish as a whole? It isn't like he bothered telling them, and if he's dead, the issue is no longer extant in any case.

As for the Dales themselves, the specific territory may or may not be important. However, those humans in power who've perpetuated the persecution of elves should be the ones to be brought to account, and if possible, be the ones to lose territory directly. It'd be ultimately fitting and wouldn't need to punish the innocent.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
It's true. The fact that they didn't personally steal the land does not change the fact that the land is stolen.

I dunno how you were raised, but I was taught that stolen property should be returned.

I was taught that people are held accountable for what they did, not what their fathers did.

So, unless your suggestion is to fit every human in boats and send them off; good luck with that, you'll need it; you're the one speaking of genocide.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
I was taught that people are held accountable for what they did, not what their fathers did.

So, unless your suggestion is to fit every human in boats and send them off; good luck with that, you'll need it; you're the one speaking of genocide.

I never sad anything about "accountability" or "punishment". I never said anything about blaming humans for the crimes of their ancestors.

I am simply stating that when you discover a stolen object in your possession, the only acceptable course of action is to find the original owners (or their descendants) and return it.

Failing that, at the very least, elves should have as much right as humans to live wherever the hell they want without being harassed.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
It's true. The fact that they didn't personally steal the land does not change the fact that the land is stolen.

I dunno how you were raised, but I was taught that stolen property should be returned.

I was taught that people are held accountable for what they did, not what their fathers did.

So, unless your suggestion is to fit every human in boats and send them off; good luck with that, you'll need it; you're the one speaking of genocide.

Well, you also hold people "accountable" for how they're born, so this isn't that much of a stretch.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
I never sad anything about "accountability" or "punishment". I never said anything about blaming humans for the crimes of their ancestors.

I am simply stating that when you discover a stolen object in your possession, the only acceptable course of action is to find the original owners (or their descendants) and return it.

How would we even define ownership of Thedas? Is that where elves settled? Because there aren't that many ruins of elven cities around which brings into question just how spread out elves were. And how do you define Thedas? We have a map but Thedas isn't an island. There is land beyond the borders we know. Does it belong to the elves too just because it's connected to Thedas?
And even if we assume that Thedas is propriety of the elves, how would you go about returning it to them? Have a mass exodus from the humans? That would never work. Seems to me there is only one option.

Failing that, at the very least, elves should have as much right as humans to live wherever the hell they want without being harassed.

Yes. Depending on how you define "harassment", of course.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 01:12 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, you also hold people "accountable" for how they're born, so this isn't that much of a stretch.

No, I don't. I view the restrictions placed upon mages in the same manner I view the restrictions placed upon me.
We are not being held accountable for anything we did. We simply have our freedoms restricted to ensure the safety of others.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, you also hold people "accountable" for how they're born, so this isn't that much of a stretch.

No, I don't. I view the restrictions placed upon mages in the same manner I view the restrictions placed upon me.
We are not being held accountable for anything we did. We simply have our freedoms restricted to ensure the safety of others.

And ensure the dominance of others over them in the process.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And ensure the dominance of others over them in the process.

People need governments. I don't really feel all that opressed.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...
Why does that have anything to do with the Dalish as a whole? It isn't like he bothered telling them, and if he's dead, the issue is no longer extant in any case.

As for the Dales themselves, the specific territory may or may not be important. However, those humans in power who've perpetuated the persecution of elves should be the ones to be brought to account, and if possible, be the ones to lose territory directly. It'd be ultimately fitting and wouldn't need to punish the innocent.

It was a counter jab; he disagreed with my idea for the City Elves to abandon the past and get ahead, because apparently that means bowing down to every whim.  Heck, if the Warden was a City Elf, there's now an Elven Noble, Soris marries a human woman (with no bad ending).  Yes, there are racial tensions and potentially a riot (as the epilogue is now hearsay) but things can get better living among humans.

The humans responsible have been dead for centuries.  Moving forward, instead of looking back, is the best way for the elves to stand as equals.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And ensure the dominance of others over them in the process.

People need governments. I don't really feel all that opressed.

Nor, interestingly, do the commoners of Thedas whom you claim are worse off than the mages.

The humans responsible have been dead for centuries.  Moving forward,
instead of looking back, is the best way for the elves to stand as
equals.

Indeed. And crushing the Orlesian empire, along with possibly other enemies, is a necessity for them to be able to stand as equals. Those who have power over others will not surrender it willingly.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 avril 2013 - 01:20 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

The humans responsible have been dead for centuries.  Moving forward,
instead of looking back, is the best way for the elves to stand as
equals.

Indeed. And crushing the Orlesian empire, along with possibly other enemies, is a necessity for them to be able to stand as equals. Those who have power over others will not surrender it willingly.

Which leaves Thedas in the hands of the Qunari and the Tevinter.  Which is far worse than what is going on now.

Orlais doesn't matter in the end.  The City Elves shouldn't give a damn about what happened to the Dales, or about forming their own nation.  They need to work together with humans; it's the only way they can be seen as equals instead of lesser.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The humans responsible have been dead for centuries.  Moving forward,
instead of looking back, is the best way for the elves to stand as
equals.

Indeed. And crushing the Orlesian empire, along with possibly other enemies, is a necessity for them to be able to stand as equals. Those who have power over others will not surrender it willingly.

Which leaves Thedas in the hands of the Qunari and the Tevinter.  Which is far worse than what is going on now.

Orlais doesn't matter in the end.  The City Elves shouldn't give a damn about what happened to the Dales, or about forming their own nation.  They need to work together with humans; it's the only way they can be seen as equals instead of lesser.

And all die of the Quickening. That issue needs to be solved, one way or the other. But, if necessary, the qunari can be stopped before turning on Orlais.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Nor, interestingly, do the commoners of Thedas whom you claim are worse off than the mages.

Ask that flower seller in Denerim if she didn't feel opressed.

Indeed. And crushing the Orlesian empire, along with possibly other enemies, is a necessity for them to be able to stand as equals. Those who have power over others will not surrender it willingly.

No, that is a necessity for them to raise themselves above the humans. While people must struggle for equality, the destruction of a nation is hardly necessary. My country just legalized gay marriage a few years ago plus other laws that protect gays against discrimination and I didn't notice armies of homossexuals overthrowing the government.