438 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if diplomatic relations consist largely of saying that your whole civilization is doomed to oblivion and that you have an obligation to abandon your own religion in favor of someone else's, then... yes, yes it is.

Wow, you are so right. I mean, just look at how the Chantry has destroyed Orzammar. How dare Brother Burkel care for men, women and children that dwarven society has deemed to be less that dirt and teach them that they are worthy and loved?
The villain.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 02:14 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if diplomatic relations consist largely of saying that your whole civilization is doomed to oblivion and that you have an obligation to abandon your own religion in favor of someone else's, then... yes, yes it is.

Wow, you are so right. I mean, just look at how the Chantry has destroyed Orzammar. How dare Brother Burkel care for men, women and children than dwarven society has deemed less that dirt and teach them that they are worthy and loved?
The villain.

Erm, the point of the Chantry is that no one is worthy or loved, and they all have to suck up to the Maker in the hopes that he might bestow his majesty upon the world again.

[dragondreamer]

My most recent playthrough had the Dalish boon. The humans in the granted land weren't relocated, and welcomed the Dalish. There were eventually racial tensions, but Keeper Lanaya was able to keep the peace. (I don't know how it turns out if Zathrian is still alive.) I imagine if the Dales were given back to the Dalish, it might be similar. The transition might not be easy, but the elves and the humans could co-exist as actual equals.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Erm, the point of the Chantry is that no one is worthy or loved, and they all have to suck up to the Maker in the hopes that he might bestow his majesty upon the world again.

Their Doctrine states that the Maker loved all but we have offended Him twice now and must make reparations. You can hear dwarven Casteless say how they heard the Maker loves all, no matter how you're born.
But that's beside the point, the Chantry is, clearly, a benign institution in Orzammar, a non-human sovereign state. Allowing the opening of one sanctuary in the Dales wouldn't have been the end of the world.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Erm, the point of the Chantry is that no one is worthy or loved, and they all have to suck up to the Maker in the hopes that he might bestow his majesty upon the world again.

Their Doctrine states that the Maker loved all but we have offended Him twice now and must make reparations. You can hear dwarven Casteless say how they heard the Maker loves all, no matter how you're born.
But that's beside the point, the Chantry is, clearly, a benign institution in Orzammar, a non-human sovereign state. Allowing the opening of one sanctuary in the Dales wouldn't have been the end of the world.

No, but it's utterly unjustified to claim that it should have been some kind of obligation of the Dalish to do so. An Orlesian embassy on the outskirts of their territory, fine, but there should be no obligation to allow other religions in, especially with said religion's policies on mages.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, but it's utterly unjustified to claim that it should have been some kind of obligation of the Dalish to do so. An Orlesian embassy on the outskirts of their territory, fine, but there should be no obligation to allow other religions in, especially with said religion's policies on mages.

It's a show of goodwill and respect. It could have helped ease tensions. It's not an obligation but it would have been the smart thing to do.
The elves also refused any attempts at trading and civilized discourse according to the Codex. It's really no wonder border conflicts escalated into open war. Apparently, you couldn't even send diplomats to talk things out.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 02:27 .

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Erm, the point of the Chantry is that no one is worthy or loved, and they all have to suck up to the Maker in the hopes that he might bestow his majesty upon the world again.

Their Doctrine states that the Maker loved all but we have offended Him twice now and must make reparations. You can hear dwarven Casteless say how they heard the Maker loves all, no matter how you're born.
But that's beside the point, the Chantry is, clearly, a benign institution in Orzammar, a non-human sovereign state. Allowing the opening of one sanctuary in the Dales wouldn't have been the end of the world.

No, but it's utterly unjustified to claim that it should have been some kind of obligation of the Dalish to do so. An Orlesian embassy on the outskirts of their territory, fine, but there should be no obligation to allow other religions in, especially with said religion's policies on mages.

It always comes back to mages doesn't it.

From what we know the Elves didn't even allow trade, with Human nations. Also it's not like Humans created death and spread it to the Elves, so they didn't do it out of agression. It's a bit like blaming birds for bird flu.

Sinking the city was evil though.

Also do we even know what the Dales thought of their mages? We know what the Dalish do, but they are very different from the Dale nation.

[Maria Caliban]

At the moment, we don't know if the Dalish living longer than the average human is a result of elven genes or due to a healthier lifestyle and magical healing provided by the Keeper.

Even if elves were once immortal, there's no certainty that they could regain that immortality from sequestering themselves from human contact. The fall of Arlathan, the elves losing their immortality, and the elven gods being locked away all happened around the same time.

I wouldn't be surprised if you needed to free those gods before regaining the immortality.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

At the moment, we don't know if the Dalish living longer than the average human is a result of elven genes or due to a healthier lifestyle and magical healing provided by the Keeper.

Oh, snap. You did not just say that to Xil. She's going to go all "out-of-context-data-extrapolation on your asp!"

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 avril 2013 - 02:33 .

[Xilizhra]

It's a show of goodwill and respect. It could have helped ease tensions. It's not an obligation but it would have been the smart thing to do.
The elves also refused any attempts at trading and civilized discourse according to the Codex. It's really no wonder border conflicts escalated into open war. Apparently, you couldn't even send diplomats to talk things out.

Because of the aforementioned Quickening issues. The humans should have understood.

I wouldn't be surprised if you needed to free those gods before regaining the immortality.

Then I'll do that. I'll do whatever it takes, regardless of the source, to end the Quickening.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Where did you get that from? Te Second Blight started 8 years after Emperor Drakon 1 was crowned and 5 afer the Chantry established. I assume he spent that time forging together the Human city states rather then attacking a large Elven kingdom. [/quote]

Drakon invaded his neighbors in a series of Exalted Marches (History of the Chantry: Part 4) to create the Orlesian Empire, and it's referenced in the Ages article that Drakon's attempts to expand into the Free Marches were hampered by the problems with the Dales.

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Aslo the Dales made no effort at all to help fight the blight. If Tivinter and Orlais can put aside their differences then why didn't the elves? Last time I cheacked Darkspawn killed elves as well. Maybe if the Dales had saved that city instead of watching it burn, they could have created some good will. [/quote]

Tevinter and Orlais have used the Blight to conquer other nations. I can imagine the elves would be hesitant about aiding an imperialistic empire that wants to conquer them and everyone else in Thedas. Then again, I don't recall Orlais requesting their presence. Can you cite any source that says Orlais asked for elven assistance?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

So there history says 'no humnas'? Either way it was part of their culture, just as spreading the chant is part of human culture. Why is it ok for one not the other? [/quote]
Humans made then mortal. The elves of the Dales wanted to regain their immortality. The Chantry wants to impose their religion on everyone. According to the Dalish, they sent templars into their sovereign nation because the elves refused to convert.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

So you admite that the Elves wanted to do more then just protect themselves. What was their end game? Were they going to sack all of Orlais? Conqure it? Ethnic cleansing? Bit hard to belive that these people were 'just defending themselves' from preachers with body gaurds. I think the Elves started that war and their contuined actions in said war, put to and including the fact that they kept pushing, prove it. Orlais wanted trade in order to rebuild after the blight, in which the Elves left them out in the cold, it was not preparded for a war, nor do Ithink it wanted one. [/quote]

Dismantling Orlais was an effort to protect themselves, especially if the Dalish version for the inception of the war is accurate. If my enemy could be permanently stopped from trying to invade me again, I would take steps to stop them.
Also, it's not stated Orlais wanted to trade to help them repair their economy from the war.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

I think the devs would leave it ambigious, like they did with the Ashes; was it the power of the Maker or the lyrium in walls? Same here; is it the fact they have less contact with Humans, or that live with fresh food, clean water, less diseases and generaly better stnadards of health and living? [/quote]
Except the developers acknowledged the Dalish live longer away from human contact. Simply that they don't live as long as the Tolkien elves do.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Nations expand it's what they do. That's the reason why the darkspawn were defeated, the Wardens need armies and Orlais has helped push back the 2nd and 3rd Blights. How many did the Dales help push back? None, they were netural and unhelpful during the second Blight. [/quote]
So conquering nations and forcing people to convert to your religion is okay, but trying to avoid being conquered by a nation that is invading other nations is wrong?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

The Elves have suffered that's true but they have no one to blame but their own ancestors. First they closed their boarders to tivinter with no explanation, what would you think if a powerful nation (that your own threated by existing) did that? The lost and the Tivinter took everything after a long war. [/quote]
So it's the Arlathan elves fault Tevinter enslaved them? The logic of that line of thinking shows me why MisterJB liked your post so much.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Then they get a new homelnd, with help from the humans, and cut themselves off from the outside world. They don't help during the 90 year long Blight, they watched a city burn. [/quote]
Elves fought alongside humans to fight against Tevinter; the Dales was land they earned.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

They didn't even want to trade with the nations around them. [/quote]
You mean, with the nation that was conquering all it's neighbors?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
They kick out Chantry preachers and then invade and push into Orlais, all the way towards Val Royeaux. [/quote]
They retaliated against a nation that invaded them. The Dalish say they were invaded by templars because they refused to convert.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Then the Chanty, fearful of the army of people who started the war becuase they don't like Humans or their God, ask for help. [/quote]
The Chantry, who supported the occupation of other nations for centuries (including Ferelden), didn't seem too keen on being invaded by the People back then. Maybe the Chantry shouldn't have sent armed and armored soldiers into elven territory to begin with.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
The Dales get stomped and the chantry stops the nations from killing or enslaving them and even said that the nations HAVE to shelter them. [/quote]
You mean forcing the elves to convert to the Chantry, outlawing the elven religion, forcibly relocating the elves, and having a cheap source of labor for the human kingdoms?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Also Alister is a childish fool when it comes to politics. So I don't care what his opinion is cause the fact that the Elves lose their boon shows that they don't learn. [/quote]

Queen Anora gives the elves the Hinterlands as well. And if humans murdered the elves, your last comment makes no sense.

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Isolationists are always their own worset enemy. If you feel sorry for them fine, but if try to pretend that the rest of the world does not exist then do't be supirsed when it bits you in the back. [/quote]

That pretty much ignores the entire premise behind why the Dalish want to regain their culture and their immortality.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 avril 2013 - 02:56 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Because of the aforementioned Quickening issues. The humans should have understood.

Maybe their immortality was real, maybe it was not. Maybe the Maker is real, maybe He is not.
Right now, both are simply part of their respective people's cultures. Why must the humans understand and respect this aspect of elven culture if the elves are not going to respect the human belief that the Chant must be sung by all for the Maker to return?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Because of the aforementioned Quickening issues. The humans should have understood.

Maybe their immortality was real, maybe it was not. Maybe the Maker is real, maybe He is not.
Right now, both are simply part of their respective people's cultures. Why must the humans understand and respect this aspect of elven culture if the elves are not going to respect the human belief that the Chant must be sung by all for the Maker to return?

The elven one only forbids humans from taking one action, while the human one forces elves to perform certain sets of actions. The elven one is a less onerous burden. In any case, the humans don't much seem to care if dwarves sing the Chant; why should they care if elves do or not?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 avril 2013 - 02:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

At the moment, we don't know if the Dalish living longer than the average human is a result of elven genes or due to a healthier lifestyle and magical healing provided by the Keeper.

Oh, snap. You did not just say that to Xil. She's going to go all "out-of-context-data-extrapolation on your asp!"

I am too cute.

Besides, we both like Morinth.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2013 - 02:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

At the moment, we don't know if the Dalish living longer than the average human is a result of elven genes or due to a healthier lifestyle and magical healing provided by the Keeper.

Oh, snap. You did not just say that to Xil. She's going to go all "out-of-context-data-extrapolation on your asp!"

I am too cute.

Besides, we both like Morinth.

Strictly speaking, I like Morinth's potential more than I like the character herself, although I did like her ME3 letters. What do you like about her?

[LobselVith8]

dragondreamer wrote...

My most recent playthrough had the Dalish boon. The humans in the granted land weren't relocated, and welcomed the Dalish. There were eventually racial tensions, but Keeper Lanaya was able to keep the peace. (I don't know how it turns out if Zathrian is still alive.) I imagine if the Dales were given back to the Dalish, it might be similar. The transition might not be easy, but the elves and the humans could co-exist as actual equals.

You're conflating the line about how the Dalish clans were treated when they entered human lands with the Hinterlands, which is given to the People (and belongs to the Dalish) in the US Ending or if the Dalish Warden asks for the People to  be given their own land.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 avril 2013 - 02:50 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The elven one only forbids humans from taking one action, while the human one forces elves to perform certain sets of actions. The elven one is a less onerous burden. In any case, the humans don't much seem to care if dwarves sing the Chant; why should they care if elves do or not?

No, not one action. It forces humans to completely pretend that a nation doesn't exist. That's just not how the world works. Border conflicts are to be expected and diplomacy plus commerce work as peacekeeping tools which elven culture forbids.
I expect had the Dales simply allowed a few priests in like Orzammar does, it would have ender there. As far as the Chantry was concerned, at least.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The elven one only forbids humans from taking one action, while the human one forces elves to perform certain sets of actions. The elven one is a less onerous burden. In any case, the humans don't much seem to care if dwarves sing the Chant; why should they care if elves do or not?

No, not one action. It forces humans to completely pretend that a nation doesn't exist. That's just not how the world works. Border conflicts are to be expected and diplomacy plus commerce work as peacekeeping tools which elven culture forbids.
I expect had the Dales simply allowed a few priests in like Orzammar does, it would have ender there. As far as the Chantry was concerned, at least.

The thing with the priest actually became a worse diplomatic crisis with the Chantry than if he's not allowed in at all, note. Apparently telling people that their religion is terrible and that they should convert or be obliterated in the afterlife has that effect on people. Who knew?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The thing with the priest actually became a worse diplomatic crisis with the Chantry than if he's not allowed in at all, note. Apparently telling people that their religion is terrible and that they should convert or be obliterated in the afterlife has that effect on people. Who knew?

Read the slide again. It clearly states that the Chantry drew a surprisingly high number of converts which caused anger from conservative dwarves who murdered Burkel during a peaceful protest.
If I had to guess, I'd say by "conservatives" they mean nobles who benefit from the Caste system. Are you really going to be against the Chantry here? They were giving work to people who resort to crime or begging because they're considered less than dirt and feeding their children.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The thing with the priest actually became a worse diplomatic crisis with the Chantry than if he's not allowed in at all, note. Apparently telling people that their religion is terrible and that they should convert or be obliterated in the afterlife has that effect on people. Who knew?

Read the slide again. It clearly states that the Chantry drew a surprisingly high number of converts which caused anger from conservative dwarves who murdered Burkel during a peaceful protest.
If I had to guess, I'd say by "conservatives" they mean nobles who benefit from the Caste system. Are you really going to be against the Chantry here? They were giving work to people who resort to crime or begging because they're considered less than dirt and feeding their children.

Yes, and as soon as the nobles are converted, the Chantry will **** off and let the casteless fall back into the dirt again, exactly like they did with the elves. All the Chantry wants is power and influence.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think centuries of slavery by humans and humans invading the Dales to forcibly convert the elves to the Andrastian Chantry would make many elves wary about humans. I suppose some would be aggressive when history keeps teaching elves that humans want to subjugate and dominate them.

Except for that time when the humans freed them, gave them land and then attempted to cultivate diplomatic relationships with the elves.

Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people. The elves earned their homeland because they fought for it.

MisterJB wrote...

You'd think they would have learned from Andraste and made a distinction between magisters and other humans before going for an old fashioned ethnic cleasing. Was hearing us talk, preach and trade really that bloody much to ask?

The elves weren't under any obligation to appease the cultist Drakon or his empire when it came to their sovereign homeland.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 avril 2013 - 03:04 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, and as soon as the nobles are converted, the Chantry will **** off and let the casteless fall back into the dirt again, exactly like they did with the elves. All the Chantry wants is power and influence.

I saw a Mother and her templars stay behind to evacuate Lothering when the Bann fled. I saw a Sister begging for money to feed the poor of Kirkwall. I see the Chantry keeping both mages and templars politically neutral rather than use them to obtain power and influence. I saw a fereldan Grand Cleric doing her best to protect her people from the excesses of an orlesian mad king. I saw a Divine preach love and acceptance for all.
The Chantry is a large organization and of course it will have its power hungry clerics and its corrupted templars. But to say that it does nothing altruistic and charitable is a disservice. Even Anders who wants to destroy it admits the Chantry does many good things.

[Xilizhra]

I saw a Mother and her templars stay behind to evacuate Lothering when the Bann fled.

And then they fled long before several others did, including Hawke. Also, she shook the Warden down for money.

I saw a Sister begging for money to feed the poor of Kirkwall.

This being the sister who was asking for money from the poor of Kirkwall?

I see the Chantry keeping both mages and templars politically neutral rather than use them to obtain power and influence.

That is their power and influence. In any case, they're in bed with Orlais. The entire Chantry was born as an excuse for Orlesian expansionism, and only in Tevinter has it divorced itself from that end entirely.

I saw a fereldan Grand Cleric doing her best to protect her people from the excesses of an orlesian mad king.

Evidently that's not the current grand cleric, who seems to be an egotistical ****. In any case, wasn't that an attempt to retcon being a collaborator?

I saw a Divine preach love and acceptance for all.

And not act on any of it.

The Chantry is a large organization and of course it will have its power hungry clerics and its corrupted templars. But to say that it does nothing altruistic and charitable is a disservice. Even Anders who wants to destroy it admits the Chantry does many good things.

Everything does good things. Tevinter keeps the qunari distracted and preserves a great deal of magical lore, for instance. It's certainly not noticeably more noble than any noble power structure of the nations it presides over.

[Ausstig]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Where did you get that from? Te Second Blight started 8 years after Emperor Drakon 1 was crowned and 5 afer the Chantry established. I assume he spent that time forging together the Human city states rather then attacking a large Elven kingdom. [/quote]

Drakon invaded his neighbors in a series of Exalted Marches (History of the Chantry: Part 4) to create the Orlesian Empire, and it's referenced in the Ages article that Drakon's attempts to expand into the Free Marches were hampered by the problems with the Dales. 1.

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Aslo the Dales made no effort at all to help fight the blight. If Tivinter and Orlais can put aside their differences then why didn't the elves? Last time I cheacked Darkspawn killed elves as well. Maybe if the Dales had saved that city instead of watching it burn, they could have created some good will. [/quote]

2. Tevinter and Orlais have used the Blight to conquer other nations. I can imagine the elves would be hesitant about aiding an imperialistic empire that wants to conquer them and everyone else in Thedas. Then again, I don't recall Orlais requesting their presence. Can you cite any source that says Orlais asked for elven assistance?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

So there history says 'no humnas'? Either way it was part of their culture, just as spreading the chant is part of human culture. Why is it ok for one not the other? [/quote]

3. Humans made then mortal. The elves of the Dales wanted to regain their immortality. The Chantry wants to impose their religion on everyone. According to the Dalish, they sent templars into their sovereign nation because the elves refused to convert.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

So you admite that the Elves wanted to do more then just protect themselves. What was their end game? Were they going to sack all of Orlais? Conqure it? Ethnic cleansing? Bit hard to belive that these people were 'just defending themselves' from preachers with body gaurds. I think the Elves started that war and their contuined actions in said war, put to and including the fact that they kept pushing, prove it. Orlais wanted trade in order to rebuild after the blight, in which the Elves left them out in the cold, it was not preparded for a war, nor do Ithink it wanted one. [/quote]

4. Dismantling Orlais was an effort to protect themselves, especially if the Dalish version for the inception of the war is accurate. If my enemy could be permanently stopped from trying to invade me again, I would take steps to stop them.
Also, it's not stated Orlais wanted to trade to help them repair their economy from the war.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

I think the devs would leave it ambigious, like they did with the Ashes; was it the power of the Maker or the lyrium in walls? Same here; is it the fact they have less contact with Humans, or that live with fresh food, clean water, less diseases and generaly better stnadards of health and living? [/quote]

5. Except the developers acknowledged the Dalish live longer away from human contact. Simply that they don't live as long as the Tolkien elves do.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Nations expand it's what they do. That's the reason why the darkspawn were defeated, the Wardens need armies and Orlais has helped push back the 2nd and 3rd Blights. How many did the Dales help push back? None, they were netural and unhelpful during the second Blight. [/quote]
So conquering nations and forcing people to convert to your religion is okay, but trying to avoid being conquered by a nation that is invading other nations is wrong?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

The Elves have suffered that's true but they have no one to blame but their own ancestors. First they closed their boarders to tivinter with no explanation, what would you think if a powerful nation (that your own threated by existing) did that? The lost and the Tivinter took everything after a long war. [/quote]

6. So it's the Arlathan elves fault Tevinter enslaved them? The logic of that line of thinking shows me why MisterJB liked your post so much.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Then they get a new homelnd, with help from the humans, and cut themselves off from the outside world. They don't help during the 90 year long Blight, they watched a city burn. [/quote]

7. Elves fought alongside humans to fight against Tevinter; the Dales was land they earned.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...

They didn't even want to trade with the nations around them. [/quote]
7.a You mean, with the nation that was conquering all it's neighbors?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
They kick out Chantry preachers and then invade and push into Orlais, all the way towards Val Royeaux. [/quote]
They retaliated against a nation that invaded them. The Dalish say they were invaded by templars because they refused to convert.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Then the Chanty, fearful of the army of people who started the war becuase they don't like Humans or their God, ask for help. [/quote]
8. The Chantry, who supported the occupation of other nations for centuries (including Ferelden), didn't seem too keen on being invaded by the People back then. Maybe the Chantry shouldn't have sent armed and armored soldiers into elven territory to begin with.
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
The Dales get stomped and the chantry stops the nations from killing or enslaving them and even said that the nations HAVE to shelter them. [/quote]
9. You mean forcing the elves to convert to the Chantry, outlawing the elven religion, forcibly relocating the elves, and having a cheap source of labor for the human kingdoms?
[quote]Ausstig wrote...
Also Alister is a childish fool when it comes to politics. So I don't care what his opinion is cause the fact that the Elves lose their boon shows that they don't learn. [/quote]

Queen Anora gives the elves the Hinterlands as well. And if humans murdered the elves, your last comment makes no sense.

[quote]Ausstig wrote...

Isolationists are always their own worset enemy. If you feel sorry for them fine, but if try to pretend that the rest of the world does not exist then do't be supirsed when it bits you in the back. [/quote]

10. That pretty much ignores the entire premise behind why the Dalish want to regain their culture and their immortality.[/quote]


1. Problems may simply mean the Elves ignoring them, you can't do that to other nations.

2. The codex says the Dales were "Netral and unhelpful", since I doubt they were giving weapons to the darkspawn, in can be inferred from the text they were not helping Orlais either. Also it's the Darkspawn, they will wipeout all life, if it's ****hole imperials or death I will take my chances with the imperials.

3. If we belive the Elvish legends why not the chant as well? If you have one side as fact how can dismiss the other?

4. Even enslaving an entire race? Even outlawing their religion? scatering their people? I guess the Humans felt the same. 

5. What do you think of the Ashes quest? There is more then one explanation.

6. I never said that was why they were enslaved, only that their actions resulted in war. Besides if Tevinter was willing to ensure that their enemy never rose again...

7. You can say that. You can also say that the Elves should have helped their allies agian. If land is 'earned' by fighting then didn't Orlais and Tiventer earn their land? Also Darkspawn. Are. Evil. Kill. Everything. Why would you not help fight them?

7.a I mean the nation that was devestated by 90 years of war, thats about 2 generations. They wanted to rebuild, the Elves refused to help them.

8. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. The Elve's version of events is very self serving. The Elves did invade Orlais and did press into the nations heart.

9. I mean not killing them all or making them slaves, and ensureing that they had shelter and (some) food. What would the Elves have done if situations where reversed?

10. They could have set up trade with Human nations while minimising contact, have a building where one day/week/month Elves leave supplies, then next Humans come in take Elven supplies and leave theres, then next day/week/month the Elves arrive take Humans supplies and leave theirs, etc.

Isolationism is a very bad out look for a nation to have, the Qing Dynasty thought it could ignore the outside world and look what happened to it.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Was hearing us talk, preach and trade really that bloody much to ask?

I suppose when Jehovah's Witnesses, scientologists, door-to-door salesmen and donation collectors come to your house, you not only listen intently to what they have to say, but invite them in for a drink and a lengthy chat?