438 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if diplomatic relations consist largely of saying that your whole civilization is doomed to oblivion and that you have an obligation to abandon your own religion in favor of someone else's, then... yes, yes it is.

Wow, you are so right. I mean, just look at how the Chantry has destroyed Orzammar. How dare Brother Burkel care for men, women and children that dwarven society has deemed to be less that dirt and teach them that they are worthy and loved?
The villain.

What proof is there that Brother Burkel did any such thing? Founding a chantry doesn't mean you automatically care about the poor and downtrodden.

As far as we've seen, the opposite is closer to the truth.

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Was hearing us talk, preach and trade really that bloody much to ask?

I suppose when Jehovah's Witnesses, scientologists, door-to-door salesmen and donation collectors come to your house, you not only listen intently to what they have to say, but invite them in for a drink and a lengthy chat?

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he's not a Witness himself.

[New Display Name]

Ooh, I would relish the chance to undermine the Chantry.

[Sir JK]

One night and this explodes with moral arguments. We've had that discussion before, the lot of us are as entrenched in the righteousness of our ideas that nothing short of the game providing direct evidence of us being wrong is going to sway us either way. I'm getting the impression that nothing short of Flemeth (or even the elven gods themselves) saying that the quickening is a lie would alter the discussion on whether it was right for the elves to isolate themselves or not.

So instead tossing moralistic arguments at one another (because we're not really discussing, are we?) perhaps we could discuss what angles and possibilities we see in this? Obviously, if the elven uprising is true (which we do not know for sure) and that it seeks to reestablish the Dales (which is pure speculation) and that we will be involved in that plot (might be unlikely) and will be there to influence how they build their nation (which is far from certain) then how the human settlers, some families of which probably have lived in the Dales longer than the elves did, will be handled is a very interesting question.
But are there other interesting questions and things to explore? While the elven mysteries are another interesting question and how the elves explore it is something that could be interesting to experience. I doubt we will ever be enlightened in it. Much like I doubt we'll ever have unambigous information on what happened precisely in the Black city or if the maker truly do exist (and in my humble opinion, it's better that way).

Another interesting angle, again assuming the Dales are reestablished, is how will the clash of cultures affect things? How well will Dalish live together with Andrastian City elves (of various nations). Imperial city elves and Rivaini elves? What conflicts would we see there?
Will they be as isolationist as they supposedly were before? Will they let traders past? Will they let the Grey Wardens in? Even elven Grey Wardens? How will an isolationist policy affect Orzammar, since it effectively cuts of the trade between that city and Val Royeaux? How much money is the Lyrium trade generating for the dwarves? Will Ferelden take Jader in such a case? Or the elves?

But we don't even have to go that far to get interesting questions.Such as:
How exactly do the elves plan to topple the worlds leading military power (possibly with the exception the qunari and/or Tevinter. Not sure there) and get away with it? Even if the uprising succeeds initially. How will they ensure that Orlais simply does not come back once Gaspard or equalient has licked his wounds (Celene probably loses her throne if she loses the Dales. There'd be no confidence in her as a leader)? Will they take in human refugees to bolster their numbers? Mages? Templars (Assuming the mages are winning. The irony would be delicious)?
What will Nevarra do if they see Orlais embroiled in a double-civil war? Support the elves? Invade the north? Help Celene?

All interesting questions methinks. And I think we'd get more out of it than whether the elves of the past were wrong or not.

[KingGunDragon]

Ok let me get in to character

Mehh... being the simple reaver I am when it comes to siding im with the dragons and an tell the the Maker him self tells me other wise.

[Ausstig]

Sir JK wrote...

One night and this explodes with moral arguments. We've had that discussion before, the lot of us are as entrenched in the righteousness of our ideas that nothing short of the game providing direct evidence of us being wrong is going to sway us either way. I'm getting the impression that nothing short of Flemeth (or even the elven gods themselves) saying that the quickening is a lie would alter the discussion on whether it was right for the elves to isolate themselves or not.

So instead tossing moralistic arguments at one another (because we're not really discussing, are we?) perhaps we could discuss what angles and possibilities we see in this? Obviously, if the elven uprising is true (which we do not know for sure) and that it seeks to reestablish the Dales (which is pure speculation) and that we will be involved in that plot (might be unlikely) and will be there to influence how they build their nation (which is far from certain) then how the human settlers, some families of which probably have lived in the Dales longer than the elves did, will be handled is a very interesting question.
But are there other interesting questions and things to explore? While the elven mysteries are another interesting question and how the elves explore it is something that could be interesting to experience. I doubt we will ever be enlightened in it. Much like I doubt we'll ever have unambigous information on what happened precisely in the Black city or if the maker truly do exist (and in my humble opinion, it's better that way).

Another interesting angle, again assuming the Dales are reestablished, is how will the clash of cultures affect things? How well will Dalish live together with Andrastian City elves (of various nations). Imperial city elves and Rivaini elves? What conflicts would we see there?
Will they be as isolationist as they supposedly were before? Will they let traders past? Will they let the Grey Wardens in? Even elven Grey Wardens? How will an isolationist policy affect Orzammar, since it effectively cuts of the trade between that city and Val Royeaux? How much money is the Lyrium trade generating for the dwarves? Will Ferelden take Jader in such a case? Or the elves?

But we don't even have to go that far to get interesting questions.Such as:
How exactly do the elves plan to topple the worlds leading military power (possibly with the exception the qunari and/or Tevinter. Not sure there) and get away with it? Even if the uprising succeeds initially. How will they ensure that Orlais simply does not come back once Gaspard or equalient has licked his wounds (Celene probably loses her throne if she loses the Dales. There'd be no confidence in her as a leader)? Will they take in human refugees to bolster their numbers? Mages? Templars (Assuming the mages are winning. The irony would be delicious)?
What will Nevarra do if they see Orlais embroiled in a double-civil war? Support the elves? Invade the north? Help Celene?

All interesting questions methinks. And I think we'd get more out of it than whether the elves of the past were wrong or not.

All good points,

Lets talk about these instead.

I think the neo-Dales (if they are established) will take in City Elves who are displaced by the civil war. I think they will form an underclass, with the Dalish on top and the 'flat ears' underneith. They will be too Human for the Elves and too Elvish for the Humans.

[K_Tabris]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm thinking more along the line of reclaiming their homeland (the Dales) at the moment.

Oooh, very much in support of this. I love this idea. It 's the next best thing to actually playing an elf.

[Heimdall]

Ausstig wrote... 

All good points,

Lets talk about these instead.

I think the neo-Dales (if they are established) will take in City Elves who are displaced by the civil war. I think they will form an underclass, with the Dalish on top and the 'flat ears' underneith. They will be too Human for the Elves and too Elvish for the Humans.

I think you overestimate the feelings of superiority the Dalish feel towards the City elves a bit.  Certainly its there, but Lanaya and Pol were both able to respectably integrated into Dalish society as long as they were willing to learn the ways of the Dalish.  The real underclass would probably be what the City Elves call flat ears, those elves that have abandoned the alienage to live amongst the humans.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
I suppose when Jehovah's Witnesses, scientologists, door-to-door salesmen and donation collectors come to your house, you not only listen intently to what they have to say, but invite them in for a drink and a lengthy chat?

I don't puch them in their face and then kill their families.
And I also don't happen to be the sole elven state in Thedas surrounded by potentially hostile humans everywhere you look. Treating them as plague-bearing thieves is...unwise.

Plaintiff wrote...
What proof is there that Brother Burkel did
any such thing? Founding a chantry doesn't mean you automatically care
about the poor and downtrodden.

Send Zerlina to the Chantry and he'll take in her baby and give her a job.
Walk around the slums and ocasionally you'll hear about how Brother Burkel has been down there preaching how all are equal in the Maker's eyes.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 avril 2013 - 02:27 .

[andy6915]

The quickening is such nonsense.

"We was within a certain distance of humans, so we magically lost our immortality. Because as you know, standing within a couple miles of humans make your blood flow somehow speed up. Hell, we can't stand near a human for more then 5 minutes without losing our immortality!"

Strange that standing near other mortal species like squirrels or wolves or bears didn't somehow cause it. I mean, apparently just being NEAR a mortal being is enough to sap your immortality away. You know... Somehow. Mere proximity is enough to ruin their lifespan.

You ask me, this sounds like a whole lot of illogical hogwash. Merely being near another species isn't going to make you go from living forever to actually having a finite lifespan. And what does 'blood quicken' even mean? What, was their actual blood flow speed and heart rate the cause of their immortality? Because that makes NO sense. More likely, it's just something elves made humans the scapegoat about. They decided to blame their human oppressors for it because they wanted to blame humans for literally everything.

If, IF, humans are truly why they lost their immortality... Then it's probably for a good reason. They were probably using blood magic and rituals to keep themselves immortal, just like Avernus at soldiers peak and Zathrian did. Human learned of it, and called an exalted march about it. When they were done, they destroyed the knowledge of how to do it. So human would be the cause, but only because the elves were giving death the finger and using unnatural means to keep themselves alive. Then, to keep the reason secret or because the real reason was lost to time and history, they came up with that quickening nonsense. Again ONLY IF humans actually are 'at fault'. Otherwise, it's complete BS and the elves just blame humans out of hatred and convenience.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't puch them in their face and then kill their families.
And I also don't happen to be the sole elven state in Thedas surrounded by potentially hostile humans everywhere you look. Treating them as plague-bearing thieves is...unwise.

Indeed, the truth hurts.

Send Zerlina to the Chantry and he'll take in her baby and give her a job.
Walk around the slums and ocasionally you'll hear about how Brother Burkel has been down there preaching how all are equal in the Maker's eyes.

Ah, yes, which is why the Chantry is against bloodline-based systems of rulership, the subjugation of conquered races, and the imprisonment of... oh, wait.

Strange that standing near other mortal species like squirrels or wolves or bears didn't somehow cause it. I mean, apparently just being NEAR a mortal being is enough to sap your immortality away. You know... Somehow. Mere proximity is enough to ruin their lifespan.

Standing near certain rocks is enough to, eventually, kill elves and humans, but not dwarves.

If, IF, humans are truly why they lost their immortality... Then it's probably for a good reason. They were probably using blood magic and rituals to keep themselves immortal, just like Avernus at soldiers peak and Zathrian did. Human learned of it, and called an exalted march about it. When they were done, they destroyed the knowledge of how to do it. So human would be the cause, but only because the elves were giving death the finger and using unnatural means to keep themselves alive. Then, to keep the reason secret or because the real reason was lost to time and history, they came up with that quickening nonsense. Again ONLY IF humans actually are 'at fault'. Otherwise, it's complete BS and the elves just blame humans out of hatred and convenience.

Um, Exalted Marches didn't exist back then. The only human power was the Tevinter Imperium, which seems to have pioneered blood magic itself, and wouldn't want to stop such magic so much as take it for themselves... something they do not seem to have succeeded at doing.

[andy6915]

Okay, I got the reason for the actual invasion by the Imperium wrong. Even so, that is the only thing I can think of that could possibly have humans at fault for them losing immortality, because that quickening BS smells more then a little fishy. Their immortality could not have been natural if humans were able to destroy it. Either it was natural and they lost it through natural means and they merely blamed humans because they wanted someone to blame, or it was unnatural and the Imperium invasion destroyed the knowledge of the immortality magic.


By the way, you're equating humans to lyrium? Comparing a sub species of ape to a magical substance that makes magic possible and is the building block of the fade? Right, totally comparable. If standing near mortal wildlife didn't do it, human wouldn't either. To say otherwise is just so so stupid. It makes about as much sense as "standing near elves too long causes human hair to turn blue". Proximity to another species isn't going to cause illogical magic effects, it would make no sense.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 04:23 .

[Xilizhra]

By the way, you're equating humans to lyrium? Comparing a sub species of ape to a magical substance that makes magic possible and is the building block of the fade? Right, totally comparable. If standing near mortal wildlife didn't do it, human wouldn't either. To say otherwise is just so so stupid. It makes about as much sense as "standing near elves too long causes human hair to turn blue". Proximity to another species isn't going to cause illogical magic effects, it would make no sense.

Er, why are you imagining that all humans are identical to humans in our own world? Or that elves operate by the biology of our own world, when they don't even exist there? If you want at least one concrete difference between humans and other forms of wildlife, humans have a connection to the Fade (dwarves don't, and didn't cause the Quickening, either; hmmm).

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't puch them in their face and then kill their families.
And I also don't happen to be the sole elven state in Thedas surrounded by potentially hostile humans everywhere you look. Treating them as plague-bearing thieves is...unwise.

Indeed, the truth hurts.

Racist.

[andy6915]

Yet elves do have a connection too, yet they also apparently had immortality. If you're trying to say human connection to the fade caused it, that idea has more holes then Swiss cheese.

I can't believe you actually swallowed the quickening BS. Seriously, if you're that gullible... I'm a prince from Nigeria, and I need your bank account information to store some of my royal money in for a while. Yes this is illogical and has tons of holes in the story and makes NOOO sense, but you MUST believe me!

"Humans made my blood speed up by standing too close to me, so now I'm no longer immortal!"

^That is what you actually believe when the elves say it. Amazing...

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 04:50 .

[Xilizhra]

andy69156915 wrote...

Yet elves do have a connection too, yet they also apparently had immortality. If you're trying to say human connection to the fade caused it, that idea has more holes then Swiss cheese.

I can't believe you actually swallowed the quickening BS. Seriously, if you're that gullible... I'm a prince from Nigeria, and I need your bank account information to store some of my royal money in for a while. Yes this is illogical and has tons of holes in the story and makes NOOO sense, but you MUST believe me!

"Humans made my blood speed up by standing too close to me, so now I'm no longer immortal!"

^That is what you actually believe when the elves say it. Amazing...

I might not believe a story IRL that someone could cause a fireball to appear just by waving their hand, but it's completely plausible in Thedas. Things operate differently here, and magic is full of mysteries.

And it's possible that, for instance, if elven immortality requires an uninterrupted connection to the Fade, humans could cause a sort of psychic static that would disrupt it and cause their bodies to begin decaying. For instance.  I'm not saying it's definitely true, but it's a hypothesis.

[LobselVith8]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm thinking more along the line of reclaiming their homeland (the Dales) at the moment.

Oooh, very much in support of this. I love this idea. It 's the next best thing to actually playing an elf. 

While I lament the loss of the elven protagonist (a favorite of mine in fantasy games, and my canon for Origins) a half-elven protagonist could work (a suggestion made by Xil a while back). Like Feynriel, perhaps - a person who grew up culturally elven and follows the Creators, instead of the Andrastian Chantry. I could see such a protagonist having the desire to help the elves in occupied Dales.

[andy6915]

@Xilizhra

Your explanations are getting more and more out there the harder I press you. As of that last post, your logic might as well me "dwarves don't have a fade connection because a giant barbie doll blew up a space station and dated Godzilla and therefore mashed potatoes"... What I just typed made about as much sense as your last post. Seriously, psychic static causing decaying bodies? Flat "wut"? It's obvious that you're just trying to justify believing the elves absolutely awful explanation so that you don't look foolish for doing so, because your posts are getting WAAAAY out there.

Mages have an explanation for their fireballs. The fade is real, how mages uses the fade to cast magic is explained. Being within the same breathing space of human causing them to stop living forever is unexplainable rubbish.

[Xilizhra]

andy69156915 wrote...

@Xilizhra

Your explanations are getting more and more out there the harder I press you. As of that last post, your logic might as well me "dwarves don't have a fade connection because a giant barbie doll blew up a space station and dated Godzilla and therefore mashed potatoes"... What I just typed made about as much sense as your last post. Seriously, psychic static causing decaying bodies? Flat "wut"? It's obvious that you're just trying to justify believing the elves absolutely awful explanation so that you don't look foolish for doing so, because your posts are getting WAAAAY out there.

Mages have an explanation for their fireballs. The fade is real, how mages uses the fade to cast magic is explained. Being within the same breathing space of human causing them to stop living forever is unexplainable rubbish.

If you want a wholly physical explanation, human bodies might be breeding grounds for magically active microorganisms that can screw with elven lifespans if they invade their own bodies. The point being that there are any number of possibilities for why this might happen. We don't know if any are true, but I believe we should find out.

[Curieyes]

Xilizhra wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

@Xilizhra

Your explanations are getting more and more out there the harder I press you. As of that last post, your logic might as well me "dwarves don't have a fade connection because a giant barbie doll blew up a space station and dated Godzilla and therefore mashed potatoes"... What I just typed made about as much sense as your last post. Seriously, psychic static causing decaying bodies? Flat "wut"? It's obvious that you're just trying to justify believing the elves absolutely awful explanation so that you don't look foolish for doing so, because your posts are getting WAAAAY out there.

Mages have an explanation for their fireballs. The fade is real, how mages uses the fade to cast magic is explained. Being within the same breathing space of human causing them to stop living forever is unexplainable rubbish.

If you want a wholly physical explanation, human bodies might be breeding grounds for magically active microorganisms that can screw with elven lifespans if they invade their own bodies. The point being that there are any number of possibilities for why this might happen. We don't know if any are true, but I believe we should find out.

Evil fantasy midichlorians?

[Xilizhra]

Curieyes wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

@Xilizhra

Your explanations are getting more and more out there the harder I press you. As of that last post, your logic might as well me "dwarves don't have a fade connection because a giant barbie doll blew up a space station and dated Godzilla and therefore mashed potatoes"... What I just typed made about as much sense as your last post. Seriously, psychic static causing decaying bodies? Flat "wut"? It's obvious that you're just trying to justify believing the elves absolutely awful explanation so that you don't look foolish for doing so, because your posts are getting WAAAAY out there.

Mages have an explanation for their fireballs. The fade is real, how mages uses the fade to cast magic is explained. Being within the same breathing space of human causing them to stop living forever is unexplainable rubbish.

If you want a wholly physical explanation, human bodies might be breeding grounds for magically active microorganisms that can screw with elven lifespans if they invade their own bodies. The point being that there are any number of possibilities for why this might happen. We don't know if any are true, but I believe we should find out.

Evil fantasy midichlorians?

Something along those lines, yes.

[andy6915]

And now we're to magical viruses that destroy lifespans because... Reasons?

I think I'm done posting to you, because you are frankly not worth posting to now. Your explanations prove you're either trolling or have a serious problem with your thinking capabilities. Just realize that your crazy explanations actually helped prove my point about how illogical and nonsense the elves claim is, because if it needs that much mystical mumbo jumbo then it's absolutely an indefensible claim to begin with.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 05:25 .

[Xilizhra]

andy69156915 wrote...

And now we're to magical viruses that destroy lifespans because... Reasons?

I think I'm done posting to you, because you are frankly not worth posting to now. Your explanations prove you're either trolling or have a serious problem with your thinking capabilities. Just realize that your crazy explanations actually helped prove my point about how illogical and nonsense the elves claim is, because if it needs that much mystical mumbo jumbo then it's absolutely an indefensible claim to begin with.

So you're a priori dismissing all possible "mystical mumbo jumbo" in a fantasy series?

[Dave of Canada]

Still believing the whole "Quickening" is bull**** created by elves to breed hate and an excuse to distance themselves from humans as much as possible to retain their "culture".

There's no evidence to prove the Dalish actually do live longer because of their distancing of humans, it might have to do with having a healthier lifestyle in a healthier habitat with unregulated magic to cure their wounds/diseases.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 avril 2013 - 05:36 .

[Enigmatick]

Xilizhra wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

And now we're to magical viruses that destroy lifespans because... Reasons?

I think I'm done posting to you, because you are frankly not worth posting to now. Your explanations prove you're either trolling or have a serious problem with your thinking capabilities. Just realize that your crazy explanations actually helped prove my point about how illogical and nonsense the elves claim is, because if it needs that much mystical mumbo jumbo then it's absolutely an indefensible claim to begin with.

So you're a priori dismissing all possible "mystical mumbo jumbo" in a fantasy series?

He's dismissing a fan theory that doesn't make any sense.